Definitely agree! I've personally don't have an emotional attachment one way or the other. I believe that's why I can enjoy and delve into these topics that interest me so much. I'm always keen to hear all sides. PNSO has its own beliefs but they don't just pull them out of their rear ends. Regardless of whether we agree or not, I'm delighted to have something with a story behind its creation.

You're most welcome! And I think it's _wonderful_ that you live near and still value and appreciate the Museum. Many people I know don't really appreciate what they have in close proximity. Sue is one very very impressive animal, and there are actually quite a few good ones that are not so well-know, but equally impressive 🙂

This is definitely a contentious topic for sure. It’s difficult to compare crocodilians to dinosaurs since their skull and jaw morphology are so derived and specialized to a semiaquatic lifestyle. Even with the increased foramina count, theropod dinosaurs still have no where near as much as crocodilians which range in the hundreds. Given that all groups of tetrapods ancestrally have lips, and that theropod skull morphology is more “traditionally” like those of other diapsids it’s not unreasonable to infer from other distantly related animals. With all of that being said though, dinosauria as a clade is so broad and diverse that there certainly would have been variations of oral tissues among different species.

@@paleoscinkus542 I agree that it is a controversial issue and that it is true to compare animals whose skull is as specialized to its environment as crocodiles. However, there are many things that they have in common that have not changed, such as foramina. It is true that crocodiles in particular have a specialized way of life, however other archosaurs such as members of the Sebecosuchidae family (such as Baurusuchus) were terrestrial and maintained a cranial structure very similar to that of crocodiles. Therefore, they are not necessarily characteristics linked to the way of life. In fact, in evolution the structures do not adapt FOR SOMETHING, but the changes are the product of evolutionary pressures and "random" mutations, through these, changes occur that in the long term modify a certain structure such as the skull. If said change is harmful, the animal will not adapt and will not endure as a species, on the contrary if it is beneficial or not harmful. I use this example because, if that typical crocodile cranial structure survived in completely terrestrial species, it is because at least it was not harmful, so it should not be tied to the semi-aquatic environment. Regarding the presence of foramina in theropods such as Tyrannosaurus, I was not referring so much to the quantity as to the positioning, since they cover a large proportion of the skull and I think it is quite biased to only focus on the line that they share with some lizards (because not all lizards have such a line) as stated in the recent article. And another quite noticeable difference with lizards is that the lower jaw in theropods is narrower than the upper one, so that it can be contained inside, something that I think is missing in lizards where both jaws are equally long and equally wide. . As I mentioned before, I think that both are hypotheses, each one with its pluses and minuses, but I do not agree that the debate has ended on this. At least for me after reading the last article on this topic (which many mention puts an end to the debate) and having read arguments from both positions, since I honestly see the balance leaning more towards the side of "absence of lips" (my opinion), since to a large extent the arguments that support the "presence of lips" position are based on conjectures about wear that I do not see as relevant given that these were animals with a fairly high turnover rate. As I mentioned before, I see a very biased comparison of the presence of foramina, since they omit aspects of their distribution that bring them closer to crocodiles. Of course, there is no definitive proof, and since it is such a large group, there may be variations between clades as you mention, and I repeat, both positions seem possible to me, but I have the impression that the presence of lips in theropods is the "fashion" currently, and it is unfortunate that many do not take the trouble to read the articles, compare the evidence and draw their own conclusions, which is how science works. Until we find a mummy the debate will not be settled. Greetings and sorry for so much text (it's an exciting topic).

What is their explanation because lips are essentially proved now with recent papers, it isn't controversial anymore, more or less settled.

@@ElZilchoYo While I personally find the lip hypothesis more convincing, the new paper doesn’t necessarily prove anything. PNSO published a video explaining the decisions they made, I’d go check it out.

@Paleo Scinkus Yes the key issue is the foraminal density. There is just no compare between the average theropod and the crocodilian.

Tell me about it! It feels and looks special, and even better in person than any video or photo can truly convey!

@@DinosDragonstotally agree

Wow thank you for your kind words! I'm glad it helps and certainly, this is the most impressive one I have so far. Pity you have to pay extra for those lips. Hopefully when PNSO does the next version, we can all save that money! but a bitten off arm too? That's a serious mod!

Indeed However, at some point, PNSO should accept the evidence of lips and not behave that stubborn

@@dontetoreally

@@donteto They aren’t being stubborn. The lip debate is far from over.

@@wyatttalley2233 I will be really over when a theropod's mummy is found. Now, all the evidence indicates the lips as the plausible thesis.

For sure, no argument there. I was still unsure if I would get it based on the release pics, but in hand it really is something special.

Definitely, especially if you really like T Rex. This one is really quite special, but some people are holding out for when PNSO gives us a fully-lipped version though!

Thank you for your comment! Indeed, I am absolutely puzzled over the emotional furore that is raised every time this comes up. I personally enjoy just learning about arguments each way, and as long as the model in question was based on one school of thought that isn't rubbish, I can enjoy it as is. I don't think it will hurt sales because it is still very popular in China. Not for this one, because of its matching with Andrea, but certainly for the upcoming tyrannosaurids, what _might_ hurt sales is PNSO seemingly slipping back into old colouration habits. Especially after we saw what they could do with the carcharodontosaurids. There's something really enjoyable about handling the old Wilson. Perhaps it's the tactile connection I feel. It just feels gnarly and tough. This new Cameron I feel like I have to be really careful I don't scratch things off. And visually, Wilson still has a charm that I think the newer ones that are almost smooth don't. Of course, that _is_ more accurate at that scale, but still...

Yes though many viewers are saying Cameron is "just a friend" 🤣

Cameron is actually canonically Wilson’s dad

Thank you! Everyone should seriously consider this model unless they are very strict on the lips.

You're most welcome. I enjoyed making it! Though it did get delayed 😁

I think there will be many of people who just bought this screaming blue murder! Maybe they can circle back to T Rex at some point, but I want them to move the hell away from another tyrannosaur for a good while longer 🤣

@@DinosDragons What you want is irrelevant, if they put out a lipped TRex you'll buy it within seconds and you know it! 😅

There is definitely something that you 'lose' if you want total realism at 1:35 scale. That's why EoFauana, ironically, actually is more realistic with its smoother skin. But of course artistically, the Wilson is best! I like the tactile feel of the thing!

Thank you very much! It was very enjoyable to do!

It really is quite something to see. Something about that deep colour. By the way you have the perfect name to comment on T rex videos! 😂

​@@DinosDragonsThank you!!

Exactly my thoughts. Kind of a bummer.

Hmmm I wonder if it could be the angle I'm holding it at. It definitely could be sharper, but it didn't jump out at me. Certainly compared to the T rex replica tooth I have it doesn't look that obvious. Maybe I need a new pair of contacts!

Well probably it's different in person! It is certainly an incredible figure. They've finally captured the heft and girth here, especially in the neck. I think Cameron carries his weight more credibly than Rebor's Kiss.

¡Gracias por tu comentario! De hecho, esta es una obra de arte al más alto nivel. Desafortunadamente, los dientes son realmente un punto débil. Además, las crestas de la cabeza están mal pintadas. Como dices, el dedo vestigial es una ventaja que no todos apreciarán. ¡Pero si lo aprecia, entenderá por qué PNSO sigue siendo uno de los mejores! En general, una hermosa pieza para tener.😃

Apologies for not replying with great alacrity. I think that Wilson looks fantastic and visuall and texturally more interesting. You would just keep Wilson aside, under the bed maybe (I do that with some models myself!) and then rotate them out. I think you will be happy down the road to have two models that represented milestones in their time, and will enjoy showing your grandchildren 30 years on how reconstruction evolved. By then, they should have proven conclusively that T Rex had lips and was fully feathered from snout to tail tip! 😂😂😂

I couldn't think of a better place to start! I know many collectors who started their PNSOs with the previous Wilson T Rex. It's nice to know that Cameron will start a new wave of collectors off! 🙂👍

I'm glad you lucked out! Because there are many complaints about the mouth not closing. The tail gap I could close one eye, but inability get a seal just defeats the point of a lipped T rex for me. Tyrannosaurids are pretty much on the same bauplan with tweaks here and there. What would have really helped the cause would be colour and pattern differentiation. PNSO's carcharodontosaurids were the perfect example. Now alas, we seem to be backsliding, which is a pity because it really detracts from their otherwise always-excellent sculpting and (generally) scientific rigour.

@@DinosDragons I'm interested to see the upcoming Daspletosaurus. It's at least not in the same exact pose as virtually all the others :)

It's definitely one of the best out there in my opinion!

Congratulations! There's a lot to look forward to with this guy!

This definitely has more artwork than the previous one. It's like a lot, so much so I couldn't film it all or it would be a video of itself. Unfortunately, I didn't see your message till too late. I generally don't film in advance to release later, but just film, edit, and then upload. Still, I filmed a quick pickup for you here today. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Y92hYJtl38zRcYk.html

​@@DinosDragons Thank you so very much in taking the effort in making that comparison video of those two. Much appreciated. I see that Cameron and Jacques have a similar pose, and they look quite nice together, despite not being direct contemporaries. Their colors contrast nicely too.

It won't disappoint. This thing is beautiful to look at. Careful not to scuff it though!

I agree with you on the supraorbital area... I forgot to comment on it! The paint is really starkly applied and it's almost like it was dabbed on as an afterthought. The creasts on the Daspletosaurus on the other hand, blends far more melodiously! I guess colour-wise PNSO was trying to bring some unity for those who bought Andrea. But some subtle colour changes would well still be plausible. Who knows, but should a new Wilson come about, he would usher in a new age with a differenet colour scheme, and lips!

Thank you! Yes this lipless thing is the one dealbreaker for many viewers!

@@DinosDragons well if this was another more overlooked theropod for me being lipless wouldn’t necessarily break the deal but on something as oversaturated as T. rex, it is. It is a truly great depiction of a T. rex, lack of lips aside though. I don’t think I would pass on a PNSO Gorgosaurus or Daspletosaurus though.

Thank you! Well you definitely get to save money on this then! Rebor really did some very good work and gave us one of the best and most modern T Rexes so far!

Actually the Rebor is a wonderful model as well. Unfortunately, I feel that ONE thing spoils it. The mouth articulation. For a lipped version, you want it to seal perfectly. It can't. For an unlipped version, you want the gape to hold. It doesn't. I'd be keen to see what EoFauna does with theirs!

@@DinosDragons For the cost, i can afford only some. So have to be choosy regarding these.

Don't wait too long though. Subsequent run paint jobs tend to deterioriate from the first few 😥

AFAIK, this is the latest one. However I believe EoFauna is set to release a new one in 2024, so look out for that!

@@DinosDragons thanks, I will😀

Haha, take care of that finger! 🤣

Well, I think they could be touched up quite easily. The issue some have with the bluntness however, will need more work 😪

Who knows where they'll go with the next iteration. However I am confident that if the evidence starts to convince them, they will go the way of lips. I'm glad they're not making decisions based on sales however! And sadly yes, I forgot to say, the crest if really sadly painted.

@@DinosDragons I got mine today. Great model and now in person really a bit better than willson.

Based on size estimates, and variability of range, there is probably a lot of overlap. No one knows, and even the many T rex specimens we have show different proportionality in various body segments.

What do you mean? It comes with this Tyrannosaurus model, so both of them are PNSO.

@@DinosDragons I am thalking about the Tyrannosaurus skull Replica! Not the tiny skull from PNSO hehe

I haven't seen it yet. I'm sure it will be good.

Don't sprain a finger! 😂

PNSO did account for gastralia. The actual placement of the gastralia and how much they protrude depends on different interpretational preferences. Possibly also how much they are displaced by internal organs, state of nutrition and so on.

Had to get some sleep first! 🤣

@@DinosDragons haha yeah only joking

There's always a bigger fish.

Definitely has weight to this one!

Yes indeed the 'marketing' for lips has been so successful that most people's default is lips. Ironically that's how it used to be back in the day before things shifted to liplessness.

Gracile of course we know refers to something more slender and lithe. The problem when it comes to generally robust animals is what is the cut off between 'more gracile ' and 'more robust'. That is one major failing of the proposed paper on separating T Rex into three species and I was quite surprised when I read it. It's just too vague. It's hard to explain in words if I said this or that part was more slender, so I think a visual reference will help. Here is Paleonerd01's FMNH PR 2081 (Sue) reconstruction: www.deviantart.com/paleonerd01/art/FMNH-PR-2081-Sue-Skeletal-Reconstruction-856275852 And this is Franoy's AMNH 5027 reconstruction. www.deviantart.com/franoys/art/Tyrannosaurus-rex-skeletal-diagram-AMNH-5027-761479433 The differences here are a lot more stark than the differences between PNSO's Cameron and Wilson, but they are there. In terms of accuracy _within the same species_ I think there is plenty of leeway given individual variations. The most obvious to my eye anyway would be the shape of the upper oral margin; it's more sinusoidal in Wilson than Cameron, with a matching profile for the mandible to fit. But that really is minutiae. Other than that, the only difference you might or might not be offended by are Wilson's obviously much larger scales, so it's a sculpt-aesthetic thing, and not so much on the proportions.

Thank you so much for the links to the reconstructions! The differences are quite noticeable between the two, which I'm glad for. I am... ever so slightly bothered by the too-large scales Wilson has, but ultimately, I'm alright imagining them as clusters of smaller scales (as Zhao Chuang explained in his video), but the bigger factor is Wilson's sentimental value. So if I do get Cameron somewhere down the line, it would only be to have a representation of Sue next to Stan. Thank you for your detailed reply once again! And I look forward to the plethora of new models to come, from both PNSO and HLG 🎉

Well the one consolation if PNSO follows the same tack as the carcharodontosaurids, then we might see some of the other less represented tyrannosaurids. I'm certainly hoping for Daspletosaurus and Gorgosaurus, but also a Teratophoneus. Seems like the lips are the final frontier for many viewers! 🙂

Yes they really could be better painted and maybe a tad sharper too! But at least it doesn't have the same kind of tooth slippage look that the previous Wilson had. It's got just the right amount of ponderosity without being overmuscles, as the Rebor sometimes appears to be!

Haha. It's really hard to say no. I'm not a completist by any means, but it so happens that PNSO just keeps making stuff that tick the three important boxes for me of sculpt, paint application, and scientific accuracy/ rationale!

What do you mean?

It sure is the way of today. But nothing on the Rebor!

There will always be supporters on either side of that perpetual argument, until something definitive shows up in the fossil record. I believe that PNSO will eventually circle back to this with lips, but not anytime soon or it would cause a riot by those who spent money on this 😊

Well, they _are_ keeping to their beliefs, instead of going for the obvious cash grab. But if they are ever convinced and put that onto the next iteration of Wilson, I have no doubt they would offer one of the best in that field.

@@DinosDragons I guess so, but they're beliefs are super strange considering they didn't have a problem adding lips to their older models.

There is no doubt that if you want to show the teeth, they naturally become a focal point, so they are going to get scutinized. The paint on the teeth have always been PNSO's weak point. The difference is quite stark when you look at the comparison in Part 2 I did with the Rebor T Rex.

Indeed, a dealbreaker to many on this excellent model!

Well it depends. How much would it cost you to buy it in Korea?

@@DinosDragons 5만9천원정도 들어

I dont quite get what you mean. You can only lie if you declare something contrary to what you know to be patently true. Since no one knows for sure on this issue and there are scientific arguments both ways, PNSO produces according to which scientific arguments they agree with more. The jury is still out on this issue. Don't forget we have yet to hear Dr Carr's response to the Cullen et al paper yet. I would be very interested to hear his thoughts. Current models can only claim accuracy based on the hard tissue we have, trace fossils or other suggestions e.g. melanosomes. Insofar as the surface anatomy and outward morphology reflects that correctly, I would consider it scientific. Claim for that quality or against cannot be made on the absence or presence of soft tissue that is not universally recognized. Model makers continually evolve their models based on new information and discoveries, and have done so as far back as the old Carnegies dinos. If melanosomes turn out to be bacteria or other confounders, Borealopelta will no longer be limited to rust brown nor Microraptor black. It's up to collectors to purchase or not for their own reasons.

It PNSO could do teeth like Rebor that would be amazing!