#323

  Рет қаралды 45,145

w2aew

w2aew

3 жыл бұрын

Here is a super=simple technique to use time-domain-reflectometry (TDR) with your scope, a battery and a resistor, to measure the length of coax, twisted pair wires, Ethernet cable (Cat5, Cat5e, Cat6, etc.), zip-cord, etc. Previous videos on transmission lines, reflections and TDR measurements are here:
Transmission lines, reflections and terminations:
• #143: Transmission Lin...
Basic TDR measurements with a scope:
• #37: Use a scope to me...
Cheap TDR with Schmitt Trigger oscillator:
• #88: Cheap and simple ...
Notes from this video:
www.qsl.net/w2aew/youtube/Simp...

Пікірлер: 285
@zedcarr6128
@zedcarr6128 3 жыл бұрын
Who on Earth thumbs videos like this down? w2aew educational videos are so easy to understand thanks to the awesome and concise explanations of essentially complex physics phenomena that I'm sure he could explain quantum theory or thermal dynamics to a 5-year-old, and they would get it.
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
I guess you can't please everyone. Thanks for the support!
@samvoelkel2046
@samvoelkel2046 3 жыл бұрын
It is so very enjoyable to listen to someone with such a thorough knowledge of electronics. Thanks.
@beaconmania
@beaconmania 3 жыл бұрын
W2aew is a master to me and i love to watch his tutorials
@typograf62
@typograf62 3 жыл бұрын
And the liking of experimentation.
@cpopte
@cpopte 3 жыл бұрын
I am SO GLAD to see you back again ! When youtube announces me that you uploaded somwthing I am sure I will learn something new in a proper way. It's been a while ...
@MrCarlsonsLab
@MrCarlsonsLab 3 жыл бұрын
Great presentation Alan. Merry Christmas to You and Yours!
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you Paul! It's an honor to know that you like my videos! Merry Christmas to you, and best wishes (and hopes) for a better 2021!
@patrickbouldinkm5l143
@patrickbouldinkm5l143 3 жыл бұрын
@@w2aew Two really smart guys admiring each other's work, love it!
@BoHolbo
@BoHolbo 3 жыл бұрын
@@patrickbouldinkm5l143 Nerd Smarts overload! ☺️
@-Todays-Tom-Sawyer-
@-Todays-Tom-Sawyer- 3 жыл бұрын
2 of my favorite geniuses
@andershenriksen6997
@andershenriksen6997 3 жыл бұрын
Merry Christmas - or seasons greatings. I don't know what's allowed anymore. You really make the top of my international youtube list, and now w2aew made a great entry. At any rate, greetings from OZ7AHR.
@mattsains
@mattsains 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent video, TDR always seemed very mysterious and demanding technically and it’s encouraging to see it done so simply
@martinkuliza
@martinkuliza 3 жыл бұрын
No.. not really TDR is simple , it just SOUND complicated TIME DOMAIN REFLECTOMETRY sound scary SIMPLE TRANSLATION : A Little signal is sent all the way down a cable and when it gets to the end a reflection is caused , causing it to come all the way back to the beginning of the cable Now 1. We know how fast the signal travels and it travels at a constant pace 2. We can measure the time it takes to get there and back because time is a constant 3. so.... if we want to know distance, we just used DISTANCE = SPEED / TIME that's it Then because the signal went up and back, you divide the answer by 2 to get the length in 1 direction it's not really that hard, Just sounds fancy
@DumbledoreMcCracken
@DumbledoreMcCracken 3 жыл бұрын
I wanted to suggest this to some people I was working with in the field at a radar site. They were a mixture of EEs and technicians, and had no idea how to determine the distance down the line, of a fault, without specialty test equipment. I have an ME, but have little EE coursework under my belt (but I have a lot of experience with oscilloscopes). I was not confident enough to suggest anything, and the people at site didn't want to hear anything from me anyway. Glad to see it might have worked.
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
Well, maybe you could just send them a link to this video before you head out to the field again ;-)
@DumbledoreMcCracken
@DumbledoreMcCracken 3 жыл бұрын
@@w2aew lol
@gskempe9
@gskempe9 3 жыл бұрын
This method is much easier than unwinding, measuring, and rewinding a reel to get length. Very much appreciated, N1QDT
@peteb2
@peteb2 3 жыл бұрын
I vouch from personal experience this technique to repurpose a 100m section of 19mm dia SHF triax feeder for a microwave link. The cable had been installed in a semi-permanent location but at the weather gland where the it entered the transmitter hut there had been some damage that had left the cable under unnecessary bending strain in direct sunlight during day eventually resulting in a dead short of the inner conductor to both outer screens. The run was replaced with new but shortened lengths from the 100meters can be be used on other jobs as cutdown spare lengths. Where to cut was the quandary and with no obvious recorded marking of the damage point nor any deformity i chose to use TDR. The result was that when i put the cable cutter through the calculated distance point it was right on the centre to outers short! That was a great feeling to see Physics & theory come together! There was a small section where the dielectric had softened probably in the heat of high summer over many cycles allowing the centre conductor to eventually move enough & finally touch the two concentric braided conductors.
@Graham_Wideman
@Graham_Wideman 3 жыл бұрын
In case folks are here for methods of estimating remaining cable on a spool, you can always weight it, subtract weight of an empty spool, and divide by weight of some known length of cable.
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
Another great method - assuming you know the weight of the spool and everything can fit on a scale!
@Graham_Wideman
@Graham_Wideman 3 жыл бұрын
@@w2aew True. But you may well have an empty spool laying around to weigh. And if you don't, you might write on the spool you have a note reminding you to weigh it when it's empty :-).
@patpalermo7629
@patpalermo7629 3 жыл бұрын
True, but this method should be able to tell you how far away you have a break in a buried cable
@Graham_Wideman
@Graham_Wideman 3 жыл бұрын
@@patpalermo7629 I'm not sure your point. If you're looking for remaining cable on a spool, presumably it's not buried or broken.
@patpalermo7629
@patpalermo7629 3 жыл бұрын
@@Graham_Wideman If you have a buried cable with a break in it, could you not use this method to find the distance from the termination point that the break is at? It would make it easier for repair work.
@billygamer3941
@billygamer3941 3 жыл бұрын
So pleased to see your return to KZfaq, Al. I learn each time.
@kk0dj
@kk0dj 3 жыл бұрын
Wow.... all those years I scrambled to find a TDR at work.... and thought I could never measure length myself without a TDR! Thank you Alan... I can do it now right at my operating position! 73 KK0DJ
@lothomillstone
@lothomillstone 3 жыл бұрын
Every time I look at your channel I find a gem. Thank you!
@SeanBZA
@SeanBZA 3 жыл бұрын
Nice short and quick test method there Alan. If you have the scope available the rest of the parts are likely to also be there, and you just need the T piece and the wire ended resistor, the adaptor is not needed, as you can simply put the resistor end into the T socket, and touch the battery to both.
@hedleyfurio
@hedleyfurio 3 жыл бұрын
Your channel has an excellent signal to noise ratio , which in the days of millienals consuming bandwidth on anti social media , with much noise and hardly any signal is a welcome reprieve .
@dougtaylor7724
@dougtaylor7724 3 жыл бұрын
Not sure why this was recommended. Turned out to be much more interesting than I thought it might be. Will certainly look at more of your videos.
@user-sb5vp3yu8m
@user-sb5vp3yu8m Жыл бұрын
School tells the theory. It sure is nice to see it demonstrated! And fun too. Your videos are awesome learning tools!
@donbomer5630
@donbomer5630 3 жыл бұрын
Alan, you NEVER cease to amaze me. Thanks for the great presentation! 🤠
@jimygerilius2377
@jimygerilius2377 3 жыл бұрын
You're very confident in your presentation, and thank you for taking the time to edit these videos. They each tell a GREAT story! I wish you had been my electronics instructor in high school, it would have been neato! :) good to see you back!
@dentakuweb
@dentakuweb 3 жыл бұрын
People will be referencing this very useful video for years. It was simple and very educational.
@robson6285
@robson6285 3 жыл бұрын
WoW, this is a great learningvid! Really clear, complete and helpfull! Or most great one this one is the supereasy super usefullness! Thanks for your knowledgesharing!
@thomasw6169
@thomasw6169 3 жыл бұрын
Merry Christmas and thank you for your excellent content over the years. Stay safe.
@TrickyNekro
@TrickyNekro 3 жыл бұрын
Missed your videos, haven't done catching up for a while. Excellent as always!!!
@Seiskid
@Seiskid 3 жыл бұрын
Wow. So simple. Can't believe I've not seen it done before. Much more accurate than cutting off an known length and measuring the capacitor ratio of both. Thanks for this tutorial.
@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT
@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT 3 жыл бұрын
That's about as simple as it can be! I was about to build the TDR based on the 74AC14 to test the integrity of some cables and it seems I no longer need it :-) Thanks for another very pleasant and informative video!
@videolabguy
@videolabguy 3 жыл бұрын
Great demo! I love simple. Thanks! Years ago, I used a similar technique to resonate a coil and capacitor for 14.318MHz VCO in my very first video frame grabber. (The literature of the day was obsessed with 4fSC at that time) I wound a few turns of coil on a hunk of chopped off Bic pen, put 22pF cap (representing the varactor diode I planned to use) in parallel with it and AC coupled a pulse from a 555 timer running at a couple hundred Hz. I then looked at the ringing of the LC combo on the scope. The scope was triggered on ch2 directly from the 555 and ch1 showed the ringing of the LC. I tuned it 70nS by adding / subtracting turns and in less than 5 minutes, Bob was my uncle!
@questionmark9684
@questionmark9684 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Alan, Thank you so much for this series of videos! I’ve built your Schmidt trigger generator and it works like a charm! I used a 74AC14 smd chip and 1% resistors, and I put them in a shielded airplane junction box that I had lying about. I powered it up with 3V and I got a rise time of 4ns. Right now struggling with crappy cables. Thanks for the great videos! Cheers, Mark
@hotplatelabs
@hotplatelabs 3 жыл бұрын
Surprised how well this works! Thank you :)
@eebaker699
@eebaker699 3 жыл бұрын
Fantastic video. I am a newbie electronic hobbyist. Good explaination on use of the oscilloscope. I'm going to make this my next project. Thanks for a very easy to understand tutorial.😁
@jamesstoffel6835
@jamesstoffel6835 3 жыл бұрын
Learned something new today - Thank you for demonstrating / posting!
@konturgestalter
@konturgestalter 3 жыл бұрын
you are a true inspiration to me when it comes to indepth electronics
@IamDerick
@IamDerick 3 жыл бұрын
This is fantastic. I love simple solutions using gear I already have. Cheers.
@joopterwijn
@joopterwijn 3 жыл бұрын
Revisited #37 😝 from eight years ago, time flies when you have measured fun!
@Gengh13
@Gengh13 3 жыл бұрын
Awesome practical applications explained clearly, thanks for all the tips.
@letsgosmokes5686
@letsgosmokes5686 3 жыл бұрын
Time was, scopes were unknowable to many - a scary icon of the arcane. Then there was the Alan Channel. Thumbs up.
@jimyohe100
@jimyohe100 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you, once again, for a very helpful presentation. This will certainly help with approximating the coax lengths around my place.
@NaudioElectronics
@NaudioElectronics 3 жыл бұрын
As usual, nice and informative video. BRAVO!
@sivasubramaniamg7285
@sivasubramaniamg7285 3 жыл бұрын
Brilliantly simple. Great video. God bless you
@clytle374
@clytle374 3 жыл бұрын
Good video, subscribed. I had wondered about trying this on wires to my well pump to figure out how deep it was. Sadly the pump failed and I got to measure it the hard way.
@tonyfleming4560
@tonyfleming4560 3 жыл бұрын
Always love your perfect videos!!! Happy Holidays to you and your family! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year also. But I wish you mainly good health or at least better health & love!
@nixxonnor
@nixxonnor 6 ай бұрын
I just found the break in a guitar cable using this TDR technique :D The break was inside one of the jacks. The break was 2 mm before the very end of the center wire inside a coax cable, right next to the tab it was soldered to inside the connector. The delta x was 41 ns so the break should be a little more than 4 meters away, according to the formula. The cable was about 3,5 meters long, so it had to be at the very other end
@jgalindes
@jgalindes 3 жыл бұрын
From Argentina I wish a happy Christmas to you and your family.
@jeremyvi
@jeremyvi 3 жыл бұрын
So simple, but so clever. Big thumb up !
@jbrown468
@jbrown468 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the informative post. Please keep `em coming!
@JB-20
@JB-20 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing. Nice and useful technique.
@TheRadiogeek
@TheRadiogeek 3 жыл бұрын
Fascinating tip. Thank you! 👍👏🏻
@SuperZiutek123
@SuperZiutek123 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for all your videos, you do amazing job teaching us
@mikefochtman7164
@mikefochtman7164 3 жыл бұрын
Very nice presentation, very informative. I learned something new today.
@emgab
@emgab 3 жыл бұрын
This is another great video i enjoyed watching Alan, absolutely genius how this works - thanks for sharing - enjoy your holidays and stay healthy
@bradypalmquist9725
@bradypalmquist9725 3 жыл бұрын
Fun to learn and do so with minimal expense while learning a useful trick!
@DrHWO
@DrHWO 3 жыл бұрын
Nice, simple explanation and implementation. I had no idea that amateur radio would lead me to falling down the electronics rabbit hole. And its all your fault! M0YZT
@peerappel2012
@peerappel2012 3 жыл бұрын
This is so cool! Thank you for sharing!
@EngineeringVignettes
@EngineeringVignettes 3 жыл бұрын
How to measure a transmission line, the McGuyver Method. :) Great stuff as always! Cheers,
@sraiken
@sraiken 3 жыл бұрын
Cool idea. I will try this. Thanks
@johnnorton6085
@johnnorton6085 3 жыл бұрын
Really so easy to use. Thank you.
@seyedmarashi
@seyedmarashi 3 жыл бұрын
Love this video, Thanks Merry Christmas to you and your nice family from Seyed in Dubai.
@regretarbor8579
@regretarbor8579 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing! This is really cool.
@radiok2ua
@radiok2ua 3 жыл бұрын
Super simple, super useful, just the right length! Thanks.--73, K2UA
@theodorepollock1273
@theodorepollock1273 3 жыл бұрын
Holy cow, this definitely deserves a like, share, and sub!
@klave8511
@klave8511 3 жыл бұрын
Depending on the scope, I’ve used the square wave probe calibration output on the scope itself as a signal source for tdr. Never thought of doing tdr for a roll of speaker wire or lamp cord. I now have an easy way of estimating how long my box of instrumentation cable is too, thanks!
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
It does depend on the scope - many scope probe compensation signals don't have a fast enough rise/fall time.
@emdxemdx
@emdxemdx 3 жыл бұрын
A TDR application I like is on railroad crossings where it is used to calculate the speed of an approaching train so the gates can be down 30 seconds prior to passing the crossing, no matter the speed of the train. This is very handy for big mainlines with 65 mph freight trains and 100 mph passenger trains...
@catalinalb1722
@catalinalb1722 3 жыл бұрын
The smart solution is the simplest! Thanks for sharing this! 🙂 👍
@catalinalb1722
@catalinalb1722 3 жыл бұрын
I have an old Tektronix with leaking capacitors (still alive to some extent) with which I would like to give it a try in measuring some cables.
@pickinnick100
@pickinnick100 3 жыл бұрын
Many thanks for this valuable info!
@UndernetSystems
@UndernetSystems 3 жыл бұрын
Great video as always
@bfx8185
@bfx8185 3 жыл бұрын
That's great video! And great explanation! Thx
@adaml52
@adaml52 3 жыл бұрын
That's a great piece of information Alan, ATB Adam UK
@isettech
@isettech 3 жыл бұрын
I upgraded with a timer IC and a FET driver IC. Keep this device in my scope kit. I added a 500 ohm trim pot to find the nominal impedance of the cable. I found most cheap "DMX digital cables" are actually built with low impedance microphone cable. They measure 60 to 70 ohms instead of 110 to 120 ohms. This is important if you do stage lighting.
@DucatiMTS1200
@DucatiMTS1200 2 жыл бұрын
Oh boy - that's just such a useful and dependable technique. Thanks for all your video's Alan, you are a genius as always! 73 de GI8WFA.
@miketoreno4969
@miketoreno4969 3 жыл бұрын
Great video sir.
@edschaff6291
@edschaff6291 3 жыл бұрын
Very informative and simple.
@azav8raa
@azav8raa 3 жыл бұрын
Alan, thanks again for another practical EE video. Never thought you could do a TDR measurement as simple as this. Hmmmm I wonder what happens when you try it on a 3 conductor wire like Romex...
@garymucher9590
@garymucher9590 3 жыл бұрын
Great to learn something new. Bravo sir, Bravo. Thumbs Up!
@n3r0z3r0
@n3r0z3r0 3 жыл бұрын
This is SOOO useful !
@BersekViking
@BersekViking 3 жыл бұрын
Very nice tip!
@eugeneeugene3313
@eugeneeugene3313 4 ай бұрын
Nice. You actually sending a step function signal along the line. No polarity change, only 0 to 9V! As it propagates and reflects - it looks like it only interferes constructively. Doesn't it? Very interesting.
@w2aew
@w2aew 4 ай бұрын
Yes, only constructively.
@eugeneeugene3313
@eugeneeugene3313 4 ай бұрын
On the othe hand, the total voltage of the second step is ~9V=voltage of the battery, which also makes sense...
@w2aew
@w2aew 4 ай бұрын
@@eugeneeugene3313 This is the right answer. The coax is an open circuit, so once it is "charged" up to the full battery voltage, no more current flows - thus no voltage drop across the series resistor, and the voltage on the line equals the battery voltage.
@richardj163
@richardj163 3 жыл бұрын
So... could you try this on last years Christmas lights to find where the bad bulb is? Brilliant information, thanks for sharing!
@mfbfreak
@mfbfreak 3 жыл бұрын
Seeing you move around the cursors, i wonder why vintage analog scope manufacturers never made a mechanical variant of those. I got an old Tek 454a, once a really expensive beast. But while it has loads of features and bandwith that i won't use, i'm still stuck counting divisions by hand. It seems to me that it would have made sense for Tektronix, HP and the other big names of the past to deliver such high end things with slide rule like cursors, or caliper style with a nonius. Hell, perhaps even with a spinning dial like you see on some micrometer calipers. I would've expected it to be a major selling point. Hell, for the highest of high end stuff you could make some mechanical linkages between time/div switch and several scales to mechanically calculate the period time, perhaps even to indicate the frequency... Not as accurate as a real counter but i can imagine that it would definitely come in handy.
@bomberoo243
@bomberoo243 3 жыл бұрын
Pretty cool experiment could use this at my school.
@TradieTrev
@TradieTrev 3 жыл бұрын
Fantastic method; this also explains why some LED lamps never turn off using the same principle!
@assistenciatecnicaemmicrof8817
@assistenciatecnicaemmicrof8817 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent !! Hugs from Brazil ....
@Artichoke4Head
@Artichoke4Head 3 жыл бұрын
simply mind blowned!
@jdmccorful
@jdmccorful 3 жыл бұрын
Real good stuff!
@yoramstein
@yoramstein 3 жыл бұрын
Great video
@thekaduu
@thekaduu 3 жыл бұрын
Very clever! Thanks.
@uryury1702
@uryury1702 3 жыл бұрын
Merry Christmas
@InssiAjaton
@InssiAjaton 3 жыл бұрын
I agree with all you showed. Have done that myself. But like in radars, you can do with some other way, often called Chirp. Too bad that goes to the opposite dirction from the basic idea of most simple instrument requirement. You would need some sort of sweep frequency source, although I speculate that I could do it by finding the different resonant frequencies using a grid dip meter. Or maybe that is too much of history by now. Maybe a FET dipper?
@rfdave3980
@rfdave3980 3 жыл бұрын
I liked it. Thanks
@BoHolbo
@BoHolbo 3 жыл бұрын
I’m liking this! Thanks Alan! 73’ de OZ2BO
@harpstertodd1973
@harpstertodd1973 5 ай бұрын
Thank you very much for this very clear explanation. What would be different if you didn't use a resistor? Would it not work?
@johnvanegdom4198
@johnvanegdom4198 3 жыл бұрын
It kept telling me my 50ft cable was only 40 ft long?? Couldn't figure out why, then I measured it...Oops! Great video.
@samgrieg2542
@samgrieg2542 3 жыл бұрын
Could be due to a time warp ;) They are here
@electronic7979
@electronic7979 3 жыл бұрын
Super 👍
@finnigan16
@finnigan16 3 жыл бұрын
Could you measure the single wire spool using a slightly different, but similar technique? Like if you have access to both ends of the wire on the spool and used two channels on your scope, could you still measure signal propagation through the spool by timing the difference between the rising edge on one channel and the rising edge on the other channel? You'd have to remember to not divide your result by 2.
@kissingfrogs
@kissingfrogs 3 жыл бұрын
Nice. For single conductor, would access to both ends plus a 2 ch scope be measurable. I will have to experiment next time i am in the workshop.
@catalinalb1722
@catalinalb1722 3 жыл бұрын
I was thinking of the 120 Ohms termination rezistor of the CAN Bus. If you add a rezistor at the end or short the end it won't work right?
@coffeecuppepsi
@coffeecuppepsi 3 жыл бұрын
Спасибо ☺️
@johng7rwf419
@johng7rwf419 3 жыл бұрын
Very good
@NexxuSix
@NexxuSix 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent video, Alan! This video also explains why you can have a high SWR on your antennas, due to the reflected energy. I don’t know if you know much about physics, but now that I’ve seen your video, you have me thinking. Why does the energy reflect back into the wire, and not simply dissipate from the end? I’m guess that it has something to do with the wire being a better conductor than air. Any thoughts?
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
The same reason that the 120/240VAC mains power doesn't "dissipate" at an unused outlet/receptacle - there is no load.
@charleskaufman5826
@charleskaufman5826 3 жыл бұрын
Great Job, Have you tried this type of measurement using waveguide such as WR62 (KuBand) ???
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
I haven't, mainly because I really don't work with waveguides in my lab.
@user-su5sq5ib3i
@user-su5sq5ib3i 3 жыл бұрын
I am looking at buying some sort of analyzer for making antennas and doing reactance/impedance measurements etc. For feedline and antennas. For what I am doing is it more feesable to buy a nano vna, mfj 259c, or one of those sark100s? Thanks and Merry Xmas!!
@w2aew
@w2aew 3 жыл бұрын
The NanoVNA is really hard to beat for “bang for the buck”, although probably the the least intuitive to use.
@What_I_Make
@What_I_Make 3 жыл бұрын
A good follow up is on short circuit v open circuit or damaged cables
@urugulu1656
@urugulu1656 3 жыл бұрын
broken cable is pretty much the same. the tdr method tells you the distance to the break. thats all there is to know.
@Justplast
@Justplast 3 жыл бұрын
Very Good :)
Why doesn't a 75 Ohm cable measure 75 Ohms?
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