3DS MAX 2023 All New Features!
Рет қаралды 105,354
Күн бұрынExclusive content on my patreon: / eloiandaluz
My webpage: www.andvfx.com/
We have the new 3ds Max 2023!
On this new release a lot of exciting new things and improvements. New snap working pivot, Saving in max is way faster, but wayyyy faster! up to 2000% faster thanks to improvements on saving and a new compression engine. autoback has been totally reworked, now its less intrusive, smarter in when can and can not autosave, with a visual counter and more options. Retopology has been greatly improve with a new preprocess system to make complex retopology models faster and more automatic, also keeps multiple mesh information, like uvs, Ids, or smoothing groups. Smart extrude received improvements. A new glTF export system. A new API for developers to display volumes on viewport and instance at render time. Improvements on security and way more!
Links to Follow this news in more detail:
3dsMax whats new: bit.ly/3wLNYBr
3dsmax changelog: bit.ly/3NAWSri
Changsoo Eun unoficial list (most detailed one): cganimator.com/3dsmax-2023-hi...
Models used from sketchfab:
Building by Artflecth: bit.ly/3vEOeBQ
Dinosaur by Nano: bit.ly/3hEcBXZ
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Other interesting links: (AL means Affiliate Links):
Patreon top tier links:
Sini Sati: www.sinisoftware.com/
Kstudio: bit.ly/3FhFLqZ
Assets
4D People: bit.ly/3Bq8SVx
Tyflow tools(AL): bit.ly/3blEwc4
WParallax (AL): bit.ly/3jLGWW4
Geometryy (Use coupon: "eloi50" for 10$ off)
benches/bycilcles stands/planters /windows:bit.ly/3PwbtFy
Figment Caustics (AL): bit.ly/3oUOZ4K
Tools
FormCutter 2.5 (AL):bit.ly/3BiZ6nW
Layama 1.5 (AL): bit.ly/3vXNRAq
Archviztools Roads (AL): bit.ly/3Cr49nM
Archviztools Ocean waves (AL): bit.ly/3moemfd
Archviztools Layer Manager (AL): bit.ly/3Cp6Ea7
windows (AL): bit.ly/2ZwmuB0
sliding doors (AL): bit.ly/3mnz3Yv
CablePlacer (AL): bit.ly/3CDEUh6
FormCutter (AL): bit.ly/3BiZ6nW
Storm-FX / Sand and liquid simulator (AL)) bit.ly/3NNwqu4
3d Courses:
Redshift course (AL): bit.ly/38DhG1r
Vray 5 course (AL): bit.ly/3pLjgEY
Architectural visualization (AL): bit.ly/3MoO5I9 "ANDVFX-10" for 10% discount
Asset creation 3dsmax (AL): bit.ly/2ZEgJBR
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Timing:
0:00 New 3ds Max 2023
0:12 Snap Working Pivot
1:17 Retopology preprocess mesh and mesh data
2:13 More modeling improvements
2:49 Saving performance
3:51 Autoback reimagined
5:08 Volumetrics on viewport API
5:59 Instancing at rendertime/on viewport API
7:05 Gltf Export
7:27 Arnold 7.1
7:50 And more stuff!
@jonnylynn2586 2 жыл бұрын
Great video Eloi, thanks. Max has been a joy to use this past year for my work (using octane renderer though for fast iterative design). I really noticed the save speed for massive scenes in the latest 2022 update so I am looking forward to feeling the 2023 speed. And i like the autobackup timer lol. That Icon though, not sure! No big deal though.. :)
@mansoorghumro8404 2 жыл бұрын
The autosave feature along with faster saving/compression times is the BEST new feature ever, been waiting for something like an intelligent autosave forever. Snap working pivot is a great addition and the retopology while maintaining UVs / textures is very very welcome. Very happy to see Max progressing how it deserves. Gracias Eloi.
@smart3dsmax 2 жыл бұрын
🙂
@AddisFeastethiopianfood 2 жыл бұрын
Retopology keeps the uvs now? mind blowing!! i really need that
@andvfx 2 жыл бұрын
uvs, vertex colors, IDs, and smoothing groups!
@saffronvalour9467 2 жыл бұрын
good to see modeling improvements but we are still ages behind in UVs specially UDIMs, texal density-based packing multiple UDIMs
@joachimjensen1573 2 жыл бұрын
Truuuueeee! Would be nice with some hair and fur as well. Nothing in years... i've learned Maya to render my characters for that reason alone. + Arnold has so many bugs.. Try to make a toon shader with edge detection (filter type:contour) and save as .png. it will only save the edges in the alpha channel.. it's been like that for years :P
@lordavius 2 жыл бұрын
Max has UDIMs since... IDK, 2016?
@dasnico13 2 жыл бұрын
@@lordavius I dont think he is talking about UDIm support, he is talking about texal density-based packing for udim
@MrLelopes 2 жыл бұрын
And yet... paying a subscription that is more expensive than the perpetual license use to be... I realized I was a joke as a user to autodesk... that's why I am out now.
@saffronvalour9467 2 жыл бұрын
@@lordavius well I haven’t said it doesn’t, it is there for the sake of it. Can you pack 10 UDIM’s maintaining specific Texal density ? or can you pack UVs using specific texal densities?
@jixal 2 жыл бұрын
So good to see the Autoback update. It's not flashy but is a massive quality of life improvement. Some great features there.
@accountsbusinessconnection300 Жыл бұрын
Exactly what I needed and was looking for! Thanks!!
@nahom1318 2 жыл бұрын
i love the autosave improvements!
@temptation6296 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the motivation. I wasn't sure if I could do it, but I might try it eventually.
@WaspMedia3D 2 жыл бұрын
Easy snap pivots ... Yes!! Intelligent autosave? Amazing! Retopo preserves UV's? What a way to make the best auto-retopo tool even better. Good to see Autodesk still taking a cue from Blender's playbook and giving us continued improvements. I don't care what anyone says ... Blender was the best thing that ever happened to Max ... it was so stagnant for so long, but the last three years or so has re-kindled my desire to keep using it. And I after seriously considering junking it at a point not that long ago, I am glad I stuck with it. I still think we need better options for hobbyist / self learning pricing though ... Now if we can just get CAT fine tuned and its bugs addressed, and speed improvements (GPU work) to the cloth modifier ...
@MikeMike-wc8on 2 жыл бұрын
Was just going to say the same :-)
@vVPhaetonVv 2 жыл бұрын
I think CAT will be upgraded in version 3ds Max 3000 lol (sad). CAT is great tool really, but needs some tinkering and polishing
@radoman1234 2 жыл бұрын
I agree... partially. Blender really shake ALL 3D software developers. Now when they feel heat ALL start to consider his users more .... seriously. Not only Autodesk... like Maxon finally start to improve ( unfortunately not in right direction ).... But this can have negative effect too. I use C4D and Blender. My PERSONAL experience are that Blender are rushed mess, moar, developers don't give a phuck about users. So real question here is will Autodesk, Maxon make same mistakes as Blender 'fOUNDATION' ? Rushed, half backed releases, full of bugs, features which are abandoned, totally dependent of addons developers ( $$$$$$$ ) ?
@WaspMedia3D 2 жыл бұрын
@@radoman1234 Blender is just in it's infancy compared to say Max, and it may be going through an awkward growth spurt phase, as you say. I don't use C4D, so can't comment on your findings there, but it does seem to me that with Max, AD and it's users don't care what Blender is doing, as the only ones who really bitch about max not being exactly like blender is self righteous blender users looking to boost their egos. The improvements made to max in the last three years certainly where not done to make Max more like blender, but to make it more functional and easier to use, which it sorely needed. So while the inspiration for constant improvements definitely came from blender development, I don't really see that same problem with Max. AD seems to be being very careful about what features to add to max, and ensuring they are well functioning before release. I'll use the retopo-tool as an example ... not only did they implement a retopo tool, they implemented probably the best one in the industry by a fair margin, that completely changed people's workflows to cut hours of time out of modeling projects for those who can creatively take advantage of it.
@radoman1234 2 жыл бұрын
@@WaspMedia3D I use Max couple times in past ( better to say I was forced to use Max :p ). But many of my friends use Max and I really fell sorrow when they rant about AD. When I start to use Blender I go on Blender sites, and there find that this is one of most TOXIC community I ever see. Seriously amount of pure HATE toward all non-Blender users and software are unbelievable. Even worse, moderators don't care, they intervene only if someone put even mild critique toward Blender. So in short, I love to see that Max is not dead software. CG is big enough to all software - users. Blender is not in infancy, this is old program. PS. I believe that Autodesk users will more need one release without any new 'feature', but with majority of bug fixed, polished- optimized existing features, improved stability, etc. Such thing are wet dream of people which use other programs too :D
@adanmq 2 жыл бұрын
Gracias por mantenernos al día. Novedades muy interesantes :O
@divyaud2914 2 жыл бұрын
Yesssss, thats what i was looking for. hanks for helping
@nandocarmona2726 2 жыл бұрын
Nice video Eloi. Ty for the review! :)
@essalhiamine4050 Жыл бұрын
thanks a lot!!! so nice reverb
@tromeur 2 жыл бұрын
Biped is the greatest tool, it could need some imrovements : - squach and stretch - automatic follow through - automatic feet stay over the ground (for mocap import)
@orphydiancg7759 2 жыл бұрын
Pls post this suggestions on 3ds MAX Ideas forum
@eleazarv.matancillas1083 2 жыл бұрын
Cat is the real solution
@aldwenbarte3021 Жыл бұрын
But still able to explain each stage in a basic manner. Honestly thanks man!
@omarleyvaofficial 2 жыл бұрын
Thank You. I think the new splash screen is awesome
@cleidimarsantos5546 Жыл бұрын
Thank you man for sharing this stuff
@deepanshu6333 Жыл бұрын
Thank you Sir! TNice tutorials helps alot !
@georgeneverland896 2 жыл бұрын
The path taken by the developers and the communication approach seem right and fresher to me. Let's hope that the rest of the promised innovations will arrive soon!
@MegaFlyingSnake Жыл бұрын
Thank you for your help, this days it's difficult to come by people like you, i want you to know that my heart will never stop appreciating your generosity..
@ivonsmith4255 2 жыл бұрын
great video & feature set!
@atlas8528 Жыл бұрын
Very helpful Video as always .
@joanorellana2227 Жыл бұрын
Worked , thanks a lot!
@XinvaderGaming Жыл бұрын
FACTS!!!!!! Thank you so much man, you're the best!!!!!!!!!
@gabrielshan1400 Жыл бұрын
This is great, thank you!
@adri_dbc Жыл бұрын
You got a like, a subscriber and a buzzer on from an old guy. TNice tutorials is the best soft soft tutorial I've seen so far. You covered a lot of
@autofied Жыл бұрын
TNice tutorials was great! the way you explain tNice tutorialngs and repeating it really helps. thanks for the tutorial!
@jeyaranikaruppiah5590 Жыл бұрын
good work king, love you
@anaycoding6594 Жыл бұрын
Very nice explanatory video!
@orphydiancg7759 2 жыл бұрын
The Sweep mesh in Maya was such a cool addition. I know MAX has inherently a better spline workflow but every now now and then Maya gets a pretty cool modeling feature more than it's users even asked or expected for. It's like Autodesk is playing with us giving reasons to exists of both software
@resetXform Жыл бұрын
They need to overhaul the Sweep, and Loft, and Shell
@mayank_parashar_ Жыл бұрын
Oh my god so good explained thank you!!!!
@jenitkhumukcham1029 Жыл бұрын
Nice job man, seems like soft soft has gotten a lot more complex since the fruity loops days that I rember. Very helpful, thank you.
@vikmedin Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this! Super cool video! A+++
@asARTMotionGraphics 2 жыл бұрын
Hi and many thanks for explaining the new features. Just as a side note, the new Retopology Tool will also get updated for Max 2021 and 2022 users .. Cheers
@johncerdan9455 Жыл бұрын
thank u soo much it helped a lot
@pedrogarcia2136 Жыл бұрын
Hello, it worked, thank you so much!
@nuriorhan6038 2 жыл бұрын
Nice new features. Changing output resolution from camera modify panel is what I'm longing for..
@luizfaria4974 Жыл бұрын
Thank you bro !!!
@mehmetaktay2343 2 жыл бұрын
Max needs a new UI. If they're going to do it, he needs to improve his animation tools. I don't think they will ever do it. They say that we have done something and added the following to this program, but they do not add a single video lesson that explains the new features step by step. They don't even have their own teachers to teach the program on youtube. Other programs have tutorial videos in the form of hundreds of thousands of courses that are constantly updated, and they are free. Check out Houdini or UE's site and youtube channels. At this time, even my grandfather's youtube channel is more up-to-date than Autodesk 3ds Max KZfaq channel. There are no courses in the area, there are no courses on KZfaq, there are no courses in their universities. They will definitely not improve this program, they just make enough corrections and improvements to keep the existing architecture users without missing out.
@yanirandres4070 Жыл бұрын
yo bro, really thankya. Big respect
@nono_palace 2 жыл бұрын
Sometimes I dream of modern tools and a new interface but... Great video as always thanks Eloi.
@artinpxpo9208 Жыл бұрын
Absolute legend. Nice one
@clausbohm9807 Жыл бұрын
Love the background music!
@tamaldas381 Жыл бұрын
Thanks a lot. TNice tutorials video got started.
@BharathidasanNatarajan 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting updates 👍
@tudorstanescu1743 2 жыл бұрын
Any news about animation interoperability between bones, CAT and biped? Thank you Eloi, awesome video as always!!
@patfish3291 2 жыл бұрын
Hahah ...we wait until 2011 for that :D ...like we waited for multithreading for Particle Flow, muscle simulation and updates for CAT
@andvfx 2 жыл бұрын
As for the roadmap this is on a private beta testing now.
@kidoctulus01 2 жыл бұрын
Improved startup times would be very welcome
@orphydiancg7759 2 жыл бұрын
Along with these Working Pivot and Smart extrude new workflows now only a versatile and fast Multi Cut tool and a on par Circularize/Regularize tool comparable to Maya will make MAX the king of direct polygon modeling.
@BARE_TEETH Жыл бұрын
Appreciate your videos. I wish that Autobak system was around earlier.
@arturgolon4132 Жыл бұрын
Thanks... it's working... Good Job...!
@pairuuz Жыл бұрын
thank you very very very much, you help me a lot
@JingIeFett 2 жыл бұрын
Oof those autosave improvements are sweet, I can't tell you how many times I've been working on a big file only to randomly get locked up for several seconds and always at the worst times
@mehmetaktay2343 2 жыл бұрын
Autodesk does so little for 3ds Max. I guess only a few programmers work. They did nothing for animation for 10 years. Without Tyflow, nobody uses the particle effect. It's also paid now, and it's pretty expensive. Although it objected, max became only a tool for modeling and architectural visualization. It is being replaced by the sketcup blender Rhino and so on. In the game, only 5% is used, and 95% is Maya and Blender. They even removed the roadmap. They have not done a single thing on the animation they have shown for 8 years. I swear I've never seen such a wonderful, groundbreaking feature like Autosave. My eyes were blinded by such a huge update.
@andvfx 2 жыл бұрын
The roadmap is not removed. Without tyflow, there is another incredible particle system, and also its only in 3dsmax, thinking Particles. Tyflow you still have the free version if you want. If you want to see improvements on animation join the beta.
@supertaurus2008 2 жыл бұрын
This is great, 3damax is really improving I these area's , I wish it had a radial menu like Maya. I use octopus plugin for that, but if it is inbuilt it would be great. Also there is not much details on MCG. Also is Autodesk not going ahead anymore with 3dsmax interactive. Overall good review
@0rdyin 2 жыл бұрын
I really wish if Autodesk improved the Max Creation Graph... 3Ds Max interactive could have been a great look-dev tool with support for modern rendering features, (such as ray-tracing) but sadly it's been abundant since 2019.. .. ..
@orphydiancg7759 2 жыл бұрын
A radial menu and also a modern quad menu. Just bringing it to QT will make a nice difference
@pengleanghou7305 Жыл бұрын
Worked, thx
@ricotobias8447 Жыл бұрын
thank you so much
@gerardocarrillo2776 Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much
@FannyDevz Жыл бұрын
Man, thank you! Crack work
@lucianoandres1056 Жыл бұрын
soone who does not get complex instructions like..At all, tNice tutorials was simple and clear for to understand. Thanks dude.
@jorgebriceno9930 2 жыл бұрын
Muchas gracias por la info
@katiacristina1433 Жыл бұрын
thanks brother
@crazymunna2397 Жыл бұрын
TNice tutorials the best tutorial I've ever watched! Super informatic and love the softow in wNice tutorialch you taught everytNice tutorialng. Thanks a lot
@CharlesLijt 2 жыл бұрын
Love ur content! Thank you!! and cant wait for the english dub version
@Yaroslav_Tselovanskyi Жыл бұрын
Wow. just wow, what a refresh after 2020
@wonderboy75 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video Eloi! Lot's of great new improvements in this version! Especially the UV's on retopology! Speed improvements when saving is also most welcome!
@estebanismaelespinozapayan1014 Жыл бұрын
thank you bro thank you
@F10F11hm 2 жыл бұрын
All the improvements are welcome - especially the improvements to saving performance and Retopology!, these are amazing, but seriously... compared to the competition, it's just not enough, Blender or Houdini users will be laughing like crazy again and for a good reason... CAT 2? Bifrost? UDIMs packing? Improved animation tools? VFX-oriented stuff? Incorporate Mudbox toolset into Max? Please?
@kevinkim8723 2 жыл бұрын
Blender don't even have Retopology, CAT, UDIM Packing. Houdini can;t even model well. Where is Smart Extrude for Blender/Houdini?
@pizola3285 2 жыл бұрын
I feel like you are comparing appleas and pears tbh
@jonnylynn2586 2 жыл бұрын
@@pizola3285 Yeah, At this stage do people just want the software to do the work for them? Deep learning is still required to get full potential in any of these softwares..
@peterblake988 2 жыл бұрын
F10F11hm your are a clown
@WaspMedia3D 2 жыл бұрын
I'm super pleased at the improvements Max has made over the last few years ... it is good. But I agree, a CAT overhaul, better VFX workflows, and to include MB in the license price (doesn't have to be built in, the connector works well enough), would be awesome additions.
@gianluigiformentin5196 2 жыл бұрын
Would be awesome to be able to use a new generation tool such as "copy/paste" between files...
@itsthatYEStoogoodguy 2 жыл бұрын
No mention on the ACES and color management in 3ds Max ?
@peterblake988 2 жыл бұрын
It's a render engine problem
@andvfx 2 жыл бұрын
Its on the roadmap, and they showcase color management working in max in some videos. No idea when they will include it thought.
@bgtubber 2 жыл бұрын
@@peterblake988 Render engines are only half of the equation and they have already implemented what they can. The other half is Autodesk who need to get off their @sses, set aside a few thousand out of the billions they are milking from their customers and implement a proper color management in 3ds Max once and for all.
@thicc1226 2 жыл бұрын
TNice tutorials is THE most helpful tutorial on KZfaq imo. I am starting production in Hardstyle, and I find soft soft really useful
@ThePhilbox 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you Eloi !!! Man they are really doing good work. The cynics will never be satisfied, but these days they make real progress.
@bollychandni Жыл бұрын
Thanks bro..
@orphydiancg7759 2 жыл бұрын
These new retopo tech should be implemented as widely as possible. A quad capping and bridging is the most obvious places to be implemented
@LucaFTube 2 жыл бұрын
Good! ..and now: hoping for ACES and the "unique material index" :)
@farzadrabei4255 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you
@Vishnu-ph3bt 2 жыл бұрын
So smooth! EverytNice tutorialng he says goes into my brain and sticks in.
@rodneylongart7735 2 жыл бұрын
thank you
@lcteologia Жыл бұрын
I don't even care if you add ads to the download you're just such a goat ❤️ ❤️ ❤️
@poison4u Жыл бұрын
Thanks
@cailingrace1881 2 жыл бұрын
Nice tutorial
@angeloadriano1025 Жыл бұрын
Really work
@sonderland2619 Жыл бұрын
very helpful and simple man.. i tNice tutorialnk i'm gonna see all your videos
@Praveenkumar-gu7gq Жыл бұрын
I bet ur a beast at it now
@lutfordost6637 Жыл бұрын
Hey Mike, thanks for the video. I am considering purchasing soft softs for the first ti. Do you have the personal version or the
@FlorinGN Жыл бұрын
This looks like the most massive improvement in the past years!
@povilaslondon 2 жыл бұрын
Now they just need to bring uv tools and render layer setup from maya and it will be way more pleasing to use it.
@orphydiancg7759 2 жыл бұрын
This! Multicut, Quad draw, Circularize, Sweep mesh as well in the modeling department. Smart extrude isn't enough and complete to achieve those "modern workflows" they feature in their updates
@myuniversedivine 2 жыл бұрын
Nice tutorial. I have been having content issues with my hmdi connected speaker and subwoofer. No soft is coming through, still coming out of
@0rdyin 2 жыл бұрын
I was waiting for the new slate material editor.. And still no proper color management (OCIO), I remember it was on the roadmap.. Anyways these changes are also welcome... I kinda don't like the new icon, it looks like tinker cad..
@vega40i 2 жыл бұрын
Trying to make a soft you hear in your head co to life might be the hardest part starting out but I guess that requires so solid
@Jaimourya Жыл бұрын
Blakk Bee Mac version seems to have so better support for certain midi devices. And not using the ASIO drivers has a lot to do with
@phloxie 2 жыл бұрын
They should Update the CAT in 3ds max, last update was 10 years ago for this tool :c
@JoseFlores-ft1cm Жыл бұрын
Thanks tNice tutorials helps alot man!!
@Flightlevel420 2 жыл бұрын
Hi thank's for the video. How did you get the subdivision (quad) 1:17 on poly after you finish to extrude?
@angelajxne 2 жыл бұрын
Bro, you're a great teacher and explainer! Thank you for tNice tutorials tutorial!
@Rammahkhalid 2 жыл бұрын
🔥🔥🔥
@xdanic3 Жыл бұрын
Working pivoot has been clearly inspired by blender, pretty good adition and great to have that without extensions, instance API is very great and .gltf something that should have been added long ago! Well, and also autosave, I wonder how stable might be max these days.
@brunaguedes5979 Жыл бұрын
You explain it so well , loved tNice tutorials tutorial.
@joachimart 2 жыл бұрын
They have removed the public roadmap. So many new features I was looking forward to. Like the new track view and semi-manual retopo. Have they given up on these - or the development going to slow to keep showing it as "in-development" since it has been in the roadmap for a couple of years.
@orphydiancg7759 2 жыл бұрын
The Brushes entry being removed let me down the most
@atasafarzadeh7110 2 жыл бұрын
These improvements led to dramatic increases in savings and workflow speed. Here are two parts that will be game changers: - Retopology should be implemented as widely as possible. - Finally, TY FLOW! The 3Ds Max team should consider combining with TY FLOW developers in order to cover artificial intelligence and physics-based simulation zones, which are everything at the moment.
@patfish3291 2 жыл бұрын
Better not! :-/ ... Autodesk did this already 15 years ago with Particle Flow. The grandfather of TY-Flow ;-) and one of the best particle systems of its time. Its development stopped after Autodesk took it over - until now. This was the only reason why TY-Flow was created by a single person after 13 years of no update for the Particle System from Autodesk (Particle-Flow it is still single threaded and exactly like it was in 2011!!!) The same happened to CAT ...a superb animation Plugin and since 13 years part of 3DSMax. We can only imagine what could happen with CAT if Autodesk had not bought it :-/ . It happened for Naida a really promising node based fluid system for Max (2013). Autodesk made Bitforst out of it, and it is still (after 10 years!!!) not available for 3DSMax. So please don't wish that Autodesk buy good 3rd Party Plugins!!! ;-)
@atasafarzadeh7110 2 жыл бұрын
@@patfish3291 Thanks for sharing your experience. I enjoyed reading it.✌ Due to my experience with Houdini and Blender AI and particle simulations, I think having it in 3ds Max would be a must. Ty-Flow is the closest thing with the same functionality at the moment. So at least Autodesk can support these guys instead of reviving old ones! The 3D world of today is more than just curves modeled by the operator.
@ss54dk 2 жыл бұрын
tyflow is must
@patfish3291 2 жыл бұрын
@ata safarzadeh Absolutly! I love Tyflow, but Tyflow was only born out of the inability of Autodesk to improve/update particle flow. After 20 years of using 3DsMax i don't belive anymore in any good coperation of 3rd party tools and Autodesk - it stopped always the Innovation or developend of this tools :-/
@khalatelomara 2 жыл бұрын
Impressive video mate 😀 not bad , but way too behind still :-( .... not much to have in this version as usual
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