HEAR ME OUT lol - Rogal Dorn. ... as the old man says... sometimes Dead.. Is Better. Enjoy, Drop a LIKE please, tell me your thoughts below!

Right, let’s get this done, get to my gaff for a Table Top livestream battle! THE GRUDGE HAS BEEN WRITTEN.

"Dorn must stay dead" Dorn: no

Dorn isn't dead. He never died on screen, there is quite literally no body. Just a severed hand. And Dorn wants his hand back. In fact GW SPECIFICALLY lists him as a "Lost Primarch" not a dead Primarch.

Luetin: "Dorn must stay dead, because..." >40 minute video Dorn: "No. I'm alive now."

Rogal Dorn, returning at the beginning of the 11th edition: "I survived. By being dead. In pretend."

Valraks stream collapses shortly before this video is released. Coincidence? I think not

Leutin: are there any returning characters in warhammer? No Lucius the eternal: am i a joke to you?

This applies at least a trillion fold onto Horus. Horus was known to have been obliterated and erased completely. The greatest betrayal had an actual consequence. Almost to say "you know all the shenanigans we like to pull? Yeah, we are never pulling that here. Horus is *gone* gone." I really dislike how Horus' return is on the table now after the latest novels.

Lies Dorn is already alive as a centurion in the imperial palace

What if they just brought his hand back to life? It could run around like Thing from Addams Family

The death of Superman against Doomsday is a great example of the points you are bringing up. There was massive weight to his death. It sent shock waves across the comics world. Then they brought him back and he has "died" several since. It lost its gravitas... and really cemented the plot armor trope.

Ahhh yes, the classic paradox of Schroedinger's Dorn.

But...Dorn isn't dead.

"I suspect he was high on narcotics." - Rogal Dorn regarding Luetin

'lorgar is unique in that hes the only demon prince of chaos undivided' Perturabo: 'Am i a joke to you?'

Dorn: "I hid myself while I repair myself"

Inquisition: Dorn is dead Grimaldus: Your objection is noted and duley ignored

Dorn doesn’t have time to die. He’s remodeling my bathroom this weekend

The last status on Dorn already changed him from KIA to MIA back in the fists supplement in 2018/2019. And we have Vulkan saying he will tell Dorn about his sons in the beast arises series (which is after Dorn dissapeared).

Can we get a Dreadnought Primarch tho? Like one so horribly ripped apart that he's more life support with armor plating than the old walking box we're used to

"No one likes painting yellow, it's a pain in the ass." GW: "Dorn stays dead for now. Someone tell research to get on the yellow paint problem."

If there’s no body, no traitors are bragging about killing him, and the only piece of his body or war gear, that’s been found is a hand he’s not dead

With Dorn, it's entirely possible for him to be being held by Purterabo. As it was an Iron Warriors craft that he was lost on covering a retreat, seen being mobbed. His return can be a result of escaping as his brother is helping Abbadon/ Vashtorr, the great rift opening and hearing Goalers talk about Guilliman's return. Dorn would be the defender of Sanctus, the Nids coming from where they are gives a reason for him, Lion of Nihillus thus allowing Guilliman to be more the statesman again.

5:54 "...he (Dorn) was dealt a rough hand" Thank you, Luetin.

Sorry, Luetin, but the almighty chaos god of profits demands the return of every primarch

" In all seriousness, Rogal Dorn was dealt a rough hand..." my coffee left my nasal passages at high velocity

I disagree, specifically regarding Rogal Dorn. He's also not dead, it was retconned. He's one of the more interesting primarchs as well.

Brilliant analysis, really. This raised a lot of good points, fantastic use of Tasha Yar and Walking Dead as examples. I have to challenge this on its basic foundation of "a character should not return because it cheapens their death". Once we sort of dispense with "is he dead or not", we have to examine the basic premise, and that is, does a returning from the dead character somehow cheapen anything such as the story, narrative, plot, or emotional impacts of said character's actual death? Do the majority of 40k fans REALLY feel it would? No, I don't think so. We already have a HUGE population of characters in 40k that die and return: Demons, Greater Demons, Demon Lords, Demon Primarchs, and more. Sure, that's Chaos, but we also have perpetuals, Eldar, and even Vulkan, who has come back many times. We see them dying over and over again, 10, 100, 1,000,000 of them, it doesn't matter, many come back, or CAN come back. When we look at characters that may come back, Primarchs in particular, we're not talking about a large population. Very few of them are actually considered "dead", and one, Kurze, is dead but his soul is likely trapped in a soulstone-type device, so he very well may be able to return quite readily. We also have significant and consistent evidence of Ferrus and Sanguinius both still somehow existing at least in part after death, so I'm not sure we can say ANY of them actually ARE dead or CAN "stay dead". The ONLY one I can identify as definitely dead, but with no evidence at all of any kind of existence after their death, is Alpharius, and even THAT may possibly be explained as his "half" of a soul simply flows back into Omegon and becomes one again. But that's a speculative 'what if" and beyond the scope of this discussion. Should Dorn return, I don't believe it will have any kind of detrimental impact or effect, it will just be a jaw dropping, heroic return and the fandom will go stark raving bonkers for it.

Dorn: "I'd give you a hand but I only have one left"

I actually think that Dorn is by far the most narratively interesting Primarch to return because of his potential tension with Gulliman. "You did not trust me with my own sons, yet trust yourself with the entire galaxy. You who proclaimed your own Imperium while I fought and bled upon terra". However, Dorn will probably be one of the last to return because Imperial Fists are fairly unpopular and business comes first.

Great video, actually changing my mind with how you explain the potential undermining of the entire lore

First thing I thought was “He’s in Trazyn’s Museum in a stasis field and Trazyn’s still salty about not getting the hand - and he is in fact working on his plan to retrieve it!” Speaking of things being like a soap opera, I was a teenager in the 1980s and I’ll never forget that in “Dallas” they decided to bring Bobby Ewing back from the dead by having him step out of the shower. A whole series had happened in the meantime with his funeral, grieving and people moving on with their lives, but apparently “it was all a dream” of Pamela, his wife. The collective eye roll was so huge that it could be picked up by seismic activity monitors across the known universe!

even your videos about Chaos and the warp have less heretical titles DORN LIVES

"Vulcan makes an off-hand reference to Dorn" har har

Like that Luetin lost a friend xD I can hear Valrak screaming already!

Horus when he gets brought back: "The news of my death was... greatly exaggerated."

I love the idea that Dorn is under glass in Trazyn's museum. I think that could make a great story.

He’s dead …. In pretend!

Love the vid luetin! Always much appreciated lore master

Side note about major character dying: In my opinion, one of the best scenes ever: Sarah Connor chronicle, around the end of series if I remember correctly, the guy soldier from the future, gets killed, shot in the head by a terminator. The machine just pop's him in the head and continues walking, going after the main hero. No stopping, no looking at the body. No emotion. That's epic screen writing. Hope I porteyed it right. XD Cheers

*Dorn voice* "No."

I think there is plenty of room in the lore for Dorn to return in a satisfying way. I agree with the points about diminishing returns and the soap opera effect if they were to bring back un-equivalently dead primarchs such as sanguinius or ferrus manus but Dorn lies very much in the unsatisfying and 'then he was gone' of the iffy late 80's and early 90's lore. Like most things it will depend how they do it. GW could develop an amazing return for Dorn that ties together the loose threads of the old lore and drives the story forward. Or they could fuck it up and have everyone thinking why did they do that.

I know all this "what primarch should return" business is finicky at best but I'm just glad to know that my grandchildren will be able to enjoy the return of the Emperor.

Ohhh Valrak’s _not_ gonna be happy.

Yarrick's death really ought to have been decided Battle of Oghram style, culminating in an epic, decisive duel between him and Ghazghkull in which the outcome of the Third War for Armageddon hung in the balance.

Kurze entire character is that he strives to make his visions come true so he can blame someone else.

so i wanna make a couple points and arguments. 1 perterabo is technically an undivided deamon primarch and lorgar was affected. 2 none of the confirmed dead primarchs have or seem like they will come back (curze, horus, ferrus, sanguinis, alpharuis/omegon whichever it actually was) 3. the returns are less the problem and more how they write them into a corner for no reason and have to plot armor them out (emps ressurection of guilliman after he got shit stomped by mortarian and lion who would have gotten destroyed by angron without emps shield) and that is far more damaging to the danger of death than any returns. 4. Dorn has never been confirmed dead(curze is insane plus not all his visions are accurate and it said inevitable death meaning he will die not that he has yet) he is (currenty) missing rumored dead but really all we know is he lost a hand, any chaos group that managed to kill Dorn of all people would have paraded it around like if they killed big E himself. 5 him returning makes the most sense in the current storyline. with vashtorr being so important and perterabo being a ally of him it makes sense that perty will be back soon and his polar opposite is dorn. on top of that with the rumblings of parts of big E waking up his most loyal Guard returning makes sense. 6. take Lions return short amnesia and other things that caused a major change in personality to a more calm rational man. Dorn is the perfect target for this if whatever happened to him to cause his disappearance left him comatose it would be the optimal time to embrace his more hateful side that caused the black templars and see him follow the path of his son sigismund, and eventually lead to him probably being the first of the returning primarchs to kill another or die at anothers hands. 7. last big point, think of the emperor's artifacts sword, shield, claw (sword a status symbol of power and rule guiliman, shield a symbol of a defending warrior shielding humanity Lion, the claw a symbol of power and tyranny over his domain ready to crush anything that opposes ally or foe) the claw could fit two Corvus a redeemer meant to remove that taint and show it could be a symbol of safety or Dorn replacing his missing fist as he dons the black and lets loose his inner rage to consume all that oppose him becoming akin to Emps when he went to stom Horus' ship war and death incarnate

“I wish Leutin would make a video about Rogal Dorn” *Monkey’s paw curls*

Oh...oh leutin. You've definitely got the inquisition looking for you with renewed vigor for this one. GREAT TOPIC imo.

Horus, Alpharius, Sanguinius, Ferrus, and Curze are the few primarchs that I hope never return in their former glory or without a significant narrative change. However, I think 40k could greatly be improved with Rogal Dorn’s return. It would be interesting to see Gulliman so excited to see his brother and have another voice of the now forgotten imperial truth, only for Rogal to now be a staunch zealot like the Black Templars. Seeing him take his logical reasoning to the extreme, while Gulliman tries to reason with him would be compelling. I can almost hear their conversation now. “I believed in Our Father’s dream Roboute, I conquered planets to remove the notion of so called “gods” from the very fabric of the stars. Back then I would not be strayed from the Imperial Truth, I trusted that gods were just the imaginary playthings of an unsophisticated Old Terra. But then…I fought against them, sacrificed my own sons by the thousands, and saw my most cherished brother kill the angel and The Emperor because of these gods of chaos. I know now that gods exist, and if Our Father bested them then he too must be a god. After all these millennia, it is clear the only difference between our crusade and the countless ones before it, is that we are fighting for the true god of humanity”

When I started collecting 40k, at the start of 3rd edition, i would have just said, "Yes, Dorn is dead. Dead as a doorknob!" But since than, things have changed. The important thing to remember here is that we, the audience, we KNOW that Konrad was not always correct. So it is possible that Konrad honestly believed what he saw and what he said, but was simply wrong. And then again it is possible someone *cough*Alpharious*cough* knew about it, and decided to ... intervene! I mean, what does Dorn do, just before he kills Alpharious on Pluto? He cuts of his hands. What if there was someone waiting in the shadows on board that cruiser? Someone that wanted revenge. Someone who then literally dis-armed Dorn, and then just took him away, to whereever he had been hiding since, leaving only his hands ... as a symbol. So yes, I think it is possible that Dorn could be not dead. It is possible to write a good story about it. The question is, WHY, and HOW should he return to the Imperium?

Luetin09: "Dorn was delt a rough hand." **Ba Dum Tss!**

Everyone knows he's in the imperial palace, wearing a suit of centurion armor

Guillemin's return thanks to the Ynnarii is more desperation in the 'End Times' kinda deal. The Imperium and even some hard core anti-Xeno Imperials have made deals with at least Alderi if things were bad enough. So I would argue it wasn't out of left field and lets face it, Guillemin was the only Primarch who was rational enough to be generally okay with such an alliance.

Thank you, I understood a lot after watching your video

I thought Peter Turbo was also a daemon primarch of chaos undivided

I think the Primarchs of "lesser" legions (except Manus obviously) would be more interesting to the current setting. Corax or the Khan probably would have the most notable changes to the setting. Corax being a sorta man-demon like Saint Celestine is pretty interesting, the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition would probably implode with the contradictions to their beliefs. The Khan coming back would mean he might've figured out some secrets regarding the webway. Russ also could be an interesting one if he has discovered some great secret to reviving Big E. Vulkan could easily be next but I don't see how he changes the story as much besides potentially being sent to deal with the aftermath of the Octarius disaster.

In my mind - Guilliman gets stabbed and goes into stasis Corax/Leman and Kahn dissapear around m32/33 Lion gets sleeped right after caliban blows up m31 Vulkan fights war of beast and then also dissapears Rogal actually stays active right up till m36, feeling the solitude that guilliman does as the sole survivor amomgst the loyalists and the pain of the battles with the iron warriors 😊

Him not getting to come back means he can't be fitted with his own augmetic "imperial fist"

Quiet outro music?! The sleep club is truly blessed with this one. Great video as always.

Bro.. Looking forward and would love to watch your story about Fabius and Mephiston.

Gotta love those short form content videos from Luetin to be honest.

But Conrad Curze must come back because we need a good guy to root for😂

My normal calm has been compromised by this video.

Dorn: *dies* Lucius: “and I took that personally”

Valrak vs Luetin incoming....and Im TOTALLY here for it.

Oh no, if primarchs are returning my primarch must return too.

The eye of terror is only smaller than the size of the forehead vein of dorn after finding out about the black templar legion. Even the world eaters would tell him to chill.

Imagine thinking Alpharius is dead. He just wants you to think he's dead.

I dunno. Dorn "staying dead" doesn't feel like it has the same resonance as, say, Ferrus Manus or Sanguinius, who were established as dead consistently without any winking or nodding. For post-heresy permanent death, we also have Kurze who is definitely not coming back. I see Dorn's return as fairly inevitable, and it doesn't bother me one way or another. It's possible for him to come back, and I think would be generally well-received. For figures of myth like the primarchs, I'm happy to just allow comic book revolving door death to be a possibility. When you go to a novel, and really zoom in on things, you can still find characters who die in meaningful ways and who are never coming back. Sure, they're guardsmen or individual astartes, or other characters who aren't "on the big stage', but for the duration of that novel I'm invested in the story of their life, and that's what matters. The grand scale stuff is... whatever. But I don't think 40k will ever get away from telling gritty stories about lives that are nasty, brutish and short.

Habeas Corpus Show me the body!

Regarding primarchs returning and the greater 40K universe, I'm not convinced about the possible "cheapening" of all of the setting: does the return of a primarch actually impact that much the greater narrative? Sure, it's a big shakeup for their respective chapters and the galaxy as a whole, but Roboute didn't whipe out Nurgle, nor did the Lion kill Szarekh, for example. Tbh, since they came back, things have been going quite downhill for the imperium lol. I don't think that a complete and total victory for the imperium could be achieved even if all primarchs actually came back, but it would expand tremendously the range and possibilities for future stories, tales and events in-universe. The only possibility of some kind of "end times" for 40K ever happening would include the Emperor returning, but I don't think GW will ever stretch that far.

In my opinion, it's the wrong way to look at it. It's not about if ressurection of the character is probable or not, because if you watched Naruto, you know that authors can sometimes use the lamest bullshit in order to ressurect ALL DEAD CHARACTERS. It's about what do we gain out of the character coming back. What is the potential of the character? What are possible interactions, that may make the setting feel living and moving. Pandora box is opened already, since they released Guliman, it's obvious they will ressurect all the primarchs sooner or later. BUT, unlike say Lion, Corax or Angron, which are characters adding nothing to the current setting, not creating any dynamics, not adding anything interesting to the way the setting works, Dorn with his stern character in a timeline where Girlyman is alive and the Imperium is falling apart, seems like a good and interesting choice. To confront him with Black Templars, like grandchildren meeting their grandparent, to confront Dorn with the Blueberry on how to run the empire, to make friction, to turn Imperium into opposing factions - that's something that's captivating. Adding stinky Mortarion who does nothing besides sweeping his scythe, or Angron who is stomping angrly in tantrum adds nothing and feels empty.

Perhaps Dorn could return as a corpse. A fallen demi-god, honoured for his heroism and sacrifice, his remains become a banner which all imperial fists and their successors rally around to push back against the threats as a crusade unto themselves.

I love how this comes just right after valraks stream collapses, this will be a fun watch

On the Kurze stuff, I don't put too much weight into it for one simple reason. Kurze saw Rogal Dorn's death. That's all that means is that, at some point in the future, Dorne will die... but that doesn't mean he dies when he disappears. His death could come AFTER his return during the End Times event when they're putting a button on the franchise. That's the problem with prophecy, there's a million ways it could be fulfilled. I think a better reason Dorn isn't on the horizon (and may never return) is from Ashes of Prospero. Done at the time of Magnus's return, a stormcaller basically lays out a release schedule when he's looking for signs of Russ. He mentions Mortarian, Angron, Fulgrim, and Lorgar for the traitors and Lion, Khan, and Corax for the loyalists. Every returning primarch, past that point, have been ones from that vision. Khan is almost certainly next. He's somewhere in the webway... what's the main baddie doing right now? Messing around in the webway with his new macguffin from Arks of Omen. There's a direct line of logic to draw between Arks ending with Abaddon in the webway and Khan returning FROM the webway. Likewise, I see a direct narrative thread for Corax to return when Lorgar does (which, via rumor, may have already happened somewhere). Aside from the prophecy of Kurze, I just don't see Dorn returning because there's no mechanism in place for his return. All the others mentioned in that prophecy have had major teasers hinting at an impending return OR logical narrative threads that connect directly to the current thrust of the narrative.

I'm a huge fan of Dorn, and I agree, keep the results a big question mark. However, a personal gripe is that virtually all the traitor primarchs are alive, but not doing anything. There is no chance for an interesting story of elemination attempts, or power struggles, etc. They just... exist... it kinda undermines , for me, any sacrifice the Imperium makes, or the balance of power at the psycher/command level, very nothing. No army will ever take the daemon princes of the primarchs, no one and no army would be capable of that (minus some specific examples). I get why the Primarchs were killed off or removed, but it was always a story point that felt extremely lame to me. Everyone got sad and either went to die or went on a spirit quest. So I don't feel the return thing is a major issue, to be honest, because the leaving, for me, was already so weak.

I saw title, immediately went to comments to look for Valrak's response 😂😂

Is perturabo not a undivided champion of chaos as well? Could have sworn he was

They never found his body..

I love all Luetin09 videos!

I need the rivalry of Perty and Dorn. Their war against each has so much narrative ore left to be mined.hopeful during the the great scouring we have ultimate showdown that once2and for all , who's the greatest wall holder in 40k lore.

i appreciate the critical eye you have when discussing 40k lore. with the setting's popularity, i've seen many people get into the habit of defending every writing decision as being as good as their overall view of the universe. you manage to be both deeply interested in the franchise while not letting that interest cloud your judgement on what is a collective project, made up of both good and bad contributions. there have been more than a few occasions where i've heard you bring up a tidbit of lore, think to myself about how that doesn't really work, only for you to proceed to take the words out of my mouth and put that criticism forth yourself. as far as this discussion goes, i definitely think being conservative when it comes to bringing back characters from the dead is for the best, lest writing consequences become meaningless (no one's ever truly gone) , as well as compromising the atmosphere of the imperium as a stagnant and decaying behemoth.

Primarchs just kind of warp reality around them, they're the closest 40k has to main characters. Personally I find adding too many leads to the issue where every major event will need to include them or vice versa an event is not considered significant if it doesn't. Perhaps the Emperor was wise to make sure humans ultimately led the Imperium, as it's a little more narratively interesting to see the common man struggle than the super human demigod. That being said, super-human demigod fight scenes are very cool.

Hello? Inquisition? Yeah, He's at it again.😂😂😂

If lorgar comes it’s basically guaranteed Corvus will come

I’d love to see a dorn perty rematch! DORN LIVES

As the artist who visually designed and drew Sabbathiel in the 40k comic trilogy, I'm kinda happy to hear some love for the character.

But he's the one I want returning the most!

I do think Rogal Dorn being in the warp affected an molded by it like Corvus Corax would be an interesting sighting of him. Trying to defeat chaos in a new form

I always appreciate the random futurama reference. I waiting for the whale biologist to appear in one of your shortest videos ever.

This guy just hates the imperial fists.

That Walking Dead shot... was that a tiger?

this new outro music is a nice touch.

Him staying dead would echo the fate of Ferrus Manus in a sense. But whereas such an event changed the Iron Hands for the worst, it changed the Imperial Fists for the better.

"Dorn was given a pretty rough hand." Yeah, I see what you did there.

Dorn comes back as a pissed off Black Templar. CRUSADE

Hehe when you were being having fun at about 38:00 I was totally waiting to hear you say something like "Oh whats that? You say its actually Horus on the Golden Throne?"

Just about to smoke one last cone and go to sleep. Perfect timing Luetin