Thank you

​@@RanchFairysincerely man, thanks for all the content, time, and everything else it takes to put all of it together brotha 🤙

100%

That is correct. But downrange energy retention is 15-25 percent better with the heavier projectile. This is why tank killing projectiles are heavy. Remember if max speed fixed everything then tank projectiles would be 100 grains going Mach 20!! If they were bowhunters

The penalty for misjudging range also increases at longer ranges. I really like the way that Troy asked the question. Asking the right questions is the most critical part of good experimental design. One way I would have improved the design is to decide on a specific number as a threshold for what level of inaccuracy is acceptable *before* conducting the test.

@@RanchFairy Actually, the very best tank killing munitions are called shaped charges that detonate several feet before hitting the armor to accelerate a tiny stream of molten metal to extremely high speeds (about Mach 15). Heavy slow projectiles can be effective at penetrating older types of armor, but there are several types of modern armor that can only be reliably penetrated with lighter faster projectiles that you get from shaped charges. Even among ordinary kinetic projectiles fired from the main gun of a tank, anti-tank armor penetrating sabot rounds are the lightest and fastest of any kind of round that a tank would use. (Fortunately, deer don't have armor)

@@ThirdLawPair Ya need to look up the mass on the tank killers. There are lighter metals Yes - animals have armor. Shaped bones protecting the vitals. We just don’t talk about that - in that context.

@@RanchFairy Three common projectiles for the Abrams tank in descending order of armor penetrating ability 1) The stream of molten metal from the M380 HEAT round: ~1kg, 5100 m/s (Mach 15.1) Capable of penetrating advanced ablative tank armor 2) M829A3 Armor-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS): 4.88kg, 1575 m/s (Mach 4.6) Capable of penetrating heavy tank armor 3) M908 Obstacle Reduction (HE-OR): 11.4kg, 1400 m/s (Mach 4.1) Capable of penetrating concrete and light tank armor [exact numbers may vary somewhat depending on the source] The thing with penetrating metal armor is that, unlike Rockwell Hardness, the toughness rating of the metal is not a fixed parameter, but it varies depending on the speed at which it is impacted. At higher speeds, the metal is more brittle and less ductile. Especially important is the speed of the projectile relative to the speed of sound in the material. The speed of sound in steel is about Mach 15, so the impact force a projectile *above* that speed cannot spread out sideways through the armor, leading to highly brittle effects. With impacts in bone, the main effect is the bone flexing inward rather than the impact force spreading out sideways. So, you don't get the same quite the same benefit from a faster arrow the way you get better armor piercing results with a faster projectile. The mechanism by which a blunt projectile defeats metal tank armor is just not the same physical mechanism by which a sharp arrow cuts through animal hide and bone. Heavy arrows are good for cutting through hide and bone, fast projectiles are good for breaking through metal tank armor.

1.25 inches of drop at 25 yards makes a difference though

@dougkeiser9406 If I'm aiming for a 4" circle at 30 yards, I have +/-3.2 yard forgiveness and I'll still catch that circle. (and I know I'm capable of doing that consistently under pressure, as a rinehart 10 ring is approx. 4"-5".) I had no problem smoking my mule deer at 75 yards last year with a pin set at 74. Just know your bow. I aimed an inch behind the knuckle. Assume it drops, I hit where I aim (which is exactly what happened), it doesn't move, I go clean through the heart.

I just don't see it.

I was quite shocked. I expected 3-5". But then I went and re-read about trajectory curves and downrange speed erosion ( I did a whole series on that) then "ah ha" it makes sense. Aerodynamic drag does not impact the heavier projectile (also moving slower) at the same rate as a much faster projectile. In the drag equation velocity is SQUARED (this is not a good thing). Not doubled, squared. So for every FPS faster you go by lowering arrow mass, the drag eats the projectile speed increase times that velocity INCREASE, negatively - squared. Fast arrow Mass down Velocity up Squared increase in drag, in the air and lower mass Heavy arrow Mass up Velocity down Squared drag is lowered because its moving slower and doesn't impact it as much because its heavier. To clarify, the mass is not squared. Only velocity. So the mass increase does not have near the impact as velocity.

40 is enough. Let someone else lie about it on another video with untuned arrows and using a pin that's zeroed for their standard platform. If that happens, I will do another test, can't have people misleading the world just so get some clicks.

@@RanchFairy Have you done tests on actual carcasses of deer or other game to test penetration differences of broadheads and different weights of arrows? I know testing is done with ballistic gel but I don't think that's a great comparison to the real thing. My theory is that most set ups will penetrate plenty unless hitting bone and at "reasonable" distances. I now shoot 50lbs. because of health issues but fortunately have a 30.5" draw length and shoot a 525 grain arrow. I'm just curious as to how much "wasted" energy there can be unless hitting bone. I've always shot heavier arrows for the advantages of quieter bow, easier on equipment, and increase in energy. I'm thinking at longer ranges the difference could become an issue with larger animals especially, like elk, for penetration if not hitting bone. Thanks.

You must be new. That's what this channel is about.

The best shots to take run the risk of hitting heavy bone, and ribs count, too, even if they arent "heavy".

@@RonnieStafne-km1hk Welcome to my channel. I have live hunting shots with multiple broadhead platforms. Including a 26” draw 40# bow and 700 grain arrows a couple times. Heavy arrow kills (multiple) 1,035 grains MULTIPLE necropsies showing internal organ damage and multiple broadhead platforms. There’s a bunch of that here. Also - why ballistic get is terrible. Why foam “testing” is a lie. And I even shot a dumpster to prove “the target defines the test”!! Holler anytime troy@ranchfairy.com

This is absurd - anyone can make a completely unreasonable suggestion and you might be the current winner!! You’d have multiple pins No way you’re making a 20 YARD error even if you’re guessing. 90% of people have rangefinders Come on man. I have a suggestion - crank up a you tube channel! Prove your point! And by the way, there’s also stuff you need to shoot over in the woods (go up in a tree and tell me 100% of the stuff is ABOVE the arrow!! I’ll wait for your response!! Unless you’re mowing the whole area you hunt - then you got me and I am a liar

@@RanchFairy I’m not saying you’re making a 20yd error dude, I’m telling you a way to see how HIGH your actual cast is on your arrow, you can know that you hit 3” low all day at 45yds and that’s fine, aim high. However, if you have 18-20” of climb at 22.5yds and there’s a tree limb in that area, you’re screwed. That’s all I’m saying Mr. Pissy pants. Knowing your FULL trajectory is just as important as knowing you hit 3” low with a 5yd variance, if not more important. What if you’re 5yds UNDER and the deer is at 35 now you’ve got a vastly different set of circumstances involving your trajectory. All I’m saying is to check your full trajectory my guy.

@@RanchFairyyeah you missed understood. Very understandable with all the critics giving you crap. I saw a guy do the test he is talking about but with a different method. The test was shooting from 60 yards with paper at 30 and it was to judge how high the different weight of arrows are at the halfway point. Just tells how small of a widow you could shoot through with a flatter shooting arrow.

@@chrisunruh6485 exactly this. I’ve done paper too, but I noticed he has a block 4x4 so he can get away with the way I described it.

I agree. And it paid off a few years ago when I needed a followup shot at 35 yds through a 12” triangle hole 15 yds away. I knew the arrow would arc at that distance at about 260fps. I guessed about 8 inches arc and threaded the needle. But I like your test of shooting 40 yd pin at 20yds to know what the max arc is.

I mean, it won't take much. The test method was solid and he's right that the guys not sighted it at a range isn't a fair test. However, the test is based around Troy's shooting ability being perfect or even relatively accurate. Which it wasn't and I don't think he'd say it was. His group size at 40 yds didn't give anyone much confidence... If he did more shots we could have more confidence. Someone could easily do test this and come up with something different - likely more accurate. The conclusion is what I don't concur with. 1.33" inches is long way on an animal and could be the difference between a lethal shot and not. 1.33" is bigger than a Magnus Black Hornet broadhead high or low.

That's a low end cape buff arrow. What a hammer

More to come on the trajectory CURVES!! If you have a fat right handed kid hit a slow roller to you at shortstop, you'll lope it over there. If you have a fast lead off leftie, you're going to send it faster....on a flatter trajectory curve. Both batters are out.

@@joeceb2444 The thing we cannot calculate is how much they will move And of course!!! No one ever misses!! Or hits a little high!! That’s a big assumption. The shots are ALWAYS on the point of aim!!

I’ve been hunting elk with arrows over 550 for 6 years now. 650 for the past 3 years. I have 4 elk and my dad has 1. (He is 76, give him a break. 😁) No misses. I have seen a couple of elk run away with light arrows sticking in them and they were never found. You should do what works for you but thought you might be interested to hear from someone with elk and heavier arrow experience.

I live in MT. I’ve killed a shit pile of elk with a 450 grain arrow and 2 blade coc broadhead. That being said, I never had a pass through until I got over 500 grains. 🤷‍♀️

Troy@ranchfairy.com If ya have questions

it was zeroed

@flyfin108 yes the pin was zeroed at 40 but when it's flying tip high I wonder if it could effect the gap for that arrow between all its yardage increments vs one with perfect arrow flight. I could be wrong with my thinking on it.

I used to zero for 17 flat ground Then hunted elevated - it was 20

Yeah, I've done that test too and came up with more than 1.33".

When your life is on the line, you make better choices.

The variance grows with range

So this is where the impact energy needs to be considered for hunting. I have a whole series on downrange energy at 60 with a lab radar. "Long range arrow performance" playlist. For instance A 436 grain arrow Momentum at launch was .52 slug At the bow - literally like every chronograph test in the shops. It is LOWER than the IMPACT Momentum of a 589 grain arrow at 60 yards - 589 hits the target at 60 yards = .56 slug. That one surprised me. To be very clear. The 580 grain arrow has more impact momentum at 60 yards than a 430 grain arrow at the bow. Remember, that means the 430 grain arrow is reducing its impact Momentum as it goes down the shotline. Just to let ya know, the 430 grain arrow at 60 yards hit at .46 slug. Approximately 21% lower than 589 at 60. That's a lot if you're hunting elk and mule deer etc. So at 80, you still have to manage a bunch of drop for either arrow? (I am assuming a hunting arrow, 3-D who cares - shoot 200 grain arrows - thats fine)

The hypotenuse is wrapped around the axis.

They fly on different trajectory curves It’s real simple. If you zero 5 pins across 50 yards for 650 grains - the pins are more open but still 10 yards apart.

@@RanchFairy yeah I totally get the reasoning behind it. I never would have expected them to be the same. Just never seen the difference in the same sight before. Pretty cool to see.

Yep. I got tired of people not putting the arrows on their own trajectory curves

Joel Maxfield did this test about 2 years ago and his results are FAR different!! #1 Joel tuned his bow for each arrow then retuned for the next arrow, #2 Joel is a FAR BETTER shot consistently shooting 2-3" groups at that distance and he did this test 20-100yds!! He also did a video showing the hight of the arch of each arrow

read above post there is your answer

@@margelawston1976 Yep!

Next test will be finding out how much your animals move Which direction And what bones will be INTRODUCED to the shot line. It’s completely unpredictable. Fast arrow and fast animal net zero - except it has lower potential to break bones. Plan a turns into plan B Slow animal for whatever reason - both are winners. That one is hard to quantify. I don’t disagree the .009 second faster arrow gets there faster But if one animal drops half way And the next one drops faster - And the next one spins and rolls It gets real Plan B real fast. I’ve got a video showing mostly deer time to target “can you beat the animals” It was amazing the variability - I have one almost complete miss from a fast arrow because that animal was Really fast!! A couple roll and drop It’s wild

@@RanchFairy yeah it’s all very interesting the real world experiments that you are doing… my arrow weight I run is 550g FMJ with fixed broad heads. My arrow setup is 550g at 26.5” 75lbs and the FMJ consistently zip through so fast the deer don’t know what hits them… I need to start recording my kill shots because my deer on average so far have not gone over 75yds away

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kJ6adNdht5fZqaM.htmlfeature=shared

This is something I very much consider too! The arc on my light vs heavy is very different. My light TAC Arrows I usually just send down range, but when there is brush with my heavies I often kneel if I have overhead stuff. It does allow me to hit things behind foreground brush though, sails over it.

@@sunchips11 unfortunately I don't think he would ever make a video on that it would hurt his marketing 😂 troys stuff makes sense but he started a heavy arrow cult , my poor buddy is shooting 690+grain arrows with 27inch draw and can't hit anything in the woods 😆

It does help that I have a 32" draw. 🤣

I don’t know about anyone else but, I’ve lost 100% of the animals I missed. Oh wait… you mean “miss” the exact aiming point? 😂 I realized that as I was typing.

@@chrisunruh6485 Yes, the spot you are aiming for. Obviously if you hit your bullseye it should/will result in a dead animal. But when we are discussing/arguing which set up is best, I think what I mentioned above would be the way to decide what worked best.

I shoot straight up the leg, Vital V with 2” expandable at 440 gr total weight. I shoot 8 to 12 does per year with 95% recovery over last 10 years. 100% recovery last few years as I fine tuned my shooting knowledge. A miss a few inches off is fine unless you are 20’ high on a 7 yd shot. No margin for error up or down on that shot.

Good points, worth noting though that pary of the purpose of the heavy single bevel setups is that they blow through bone, lessening that issue.

@@sunchips11 Correct. What I'm saying is that it's somewhat self defeating. Adding mass to assist in bone breaking, while increasing the likelihood of actually hitting a bone you may have avoided in the first place.

Fair points. I tend to think of them as plan B arrows as RF puts it. I've seen too many videos of hunters accidentally hitting bone or missing lung and the animal running off with a stick hanging out of them, unrecovered. I'm still going for the heart and lungs of course, but if nature intervenes, I have options. Just a different philosophy, I do see you're point though.

@@sunchips11 For sure. My goal in making comments at all is to provide other perspectives. Heavy arrows and smaller cut broadheads do penetrate better given equal animal movement - but they also have tangible downsides. Often not recognized, especially in echo chambers like these can become. For me, increasing the odds of the "plan b" doesn't make sense. It also doesn't match with hunter reported feedback on lethality. Most animals are lost from shots too far back and from range error, not from bone. That also matches my personal experience. So that's the plan B & C that I plan for while still trying to achieve a pass through. So would bone be Plan D? And if we can reduce the likelihood of D happening by shooting a little faster (not too fast) then isn't that the most logical?

Excellent points. I absolutely agree with the too far back point. That's why I'm aiming for the heart in the forward lower part of the vital V. The bone won't stop my arrows if the animal moves that in the way, but I'm also not aiming behind the crease. That's why bone is plan B for me and not plan C. Obviously all of this is contingent on actually practicing and making sure I'm accurate.

You've got to think about it statistically. Say a whitetail lungs are 10" in diameter - which means you've got 5" up or down if you aim in the middle. 1.33"/5"= 26.66% loss in accuracy before any human error or animal movement. 1.33" is the size of a big cut fixed head so you're hitting an entire broadhead high or low. Significant in my book.

@TheArrowBuilder yes your right and thats why I shoot a lighter arrow with a 2 inch expandable so I don't get as much drop and bugger cut means more likely to hit something even if your off...now thats if for deer not talking about other animals..

You and my newest detractor "The Arrow Builder".......uh.....where do I begin. Let me see. You two arbitrarily and absolutely LACKING FACTUALLY reduced the kill zone on a deer to 3" (baseball size) so that you could make your point. How do people learn to gaslight so easily.

@RanchFairy let's get this strait I like your content but in 40 years of hunting I don't have a problem shooting a 1.5 expandable ....and for the record I think your right in probably all.of it ..but I can kill a squirrel with a 10 gage shot gun to..all I'm saying is I myself would rather go with the biggest cut I can and still get through with the fastest speed I can ..if deer or pigs drop soo fast why not get there as fast as possible..and you should do a video of "flappers " but sharpening them like you do the fixed blades..and I know you don't like to track but to me that's woodsman ship it's part of hunting or at least that how I was raised..but keep.up the good content..

@@chrismacomber9727 It's fine man. Youre the exception with the consistent results. In fact you're really the exception. Id keep doing what you're doing since your success rate is so high.

@@PaulMooneyOutdoors yes - never looked back

Ahahahahaa - 1.3”…….you’re just not happy with the results I had. So what you’re saying is if someone else did this - it would be closer to the POI! Awesome! Its even closer

@@RanchFairy @robertkobres2504 is like the pro archers that think everyone is an expert shot with a bow, but in all reality the average bow hunter sucks at arrow placement. This makes your test practical for most shooters. I will quote "Jake" on the Everything Black Powder channel, " If you did think this video sucked, then go make your own damn video".

The way he hammers that trigger is flawless

@@ctreece7506 If that’s your take away. Then I am happy!!

@@RanchFairy I don't think your number is far off the physics calculated trajectory. But configuration of the bow, bow sight, arrow drag and the shooter are all factors in pin gaps not just arrow weight. In short your video is a good test for hunters to do on there own cause miss judged shots will happen. And each archer/bow/arrow setup is different.

Simple things aren't always the answer.

I may do that. The ranch is pretty windy and flat. I already know the answer. Hard to hold steady!!! But I know which arrow will perform better.

I was surprised. Thought it would be 4-6”

Just posted on my instagram bullet hole performance. So to be fair, if there was an arrow that might not have been perfectly tuned, it was the lighter one. Because I don't run any arrows without 100 grain inserts. Physics showed up and the lighter arrow hit a little higher. I appreciate your comment, there aren't a lot of people who recognized that as you mess around with the arrows, they are different, and arrow tune matters. Many you tube channels do similar videos, they have their bows tuned for light arrows and just add a ton of mass to a low spine arrow and disregard arrow flight.

Please don’t get me wrong as I liked what you did here. Another thing to consider is human error. Like one person said in his comment, it will be nice to send a few lighter arrows first, say three or four to see how they group and then do the same with the heavier arrows and then compare POI. I’m sure the heavier ones will hit lower.

@@mansalaija we repeated the test with two other shooters. That's upcoming in a video. Spoiler alert!!! So the thing that the industry folks and some of the you tubers who try this DO NOT understand is the flight path of both projectiles. Put on their respective flight path, you just don't see the huge issue you would see if you used the lighter arrows pin gaps. That is 100% of the tests you see. If I used my heavy arrow pins. The light arrow would miss HIGH and that's not better. Man I love these conversations, new ideas. I am going to do exactly that. Put the light arrow on the heavy arrow (the incorrect flight path) pin setting and test that! Another video upcoming is the amazing difference in on target momentum between the 650 and the 430 grain arrow - I went ahead and ran that one out to 60 yards and was amazed. We are good man. The "human element" is a thing I accept. I also accept that out of 100 folks about 99 will make some small error when hunting. Target shooting is just practice. So we also need to consider. Structural integrity Perfect arrow flight Mass Sharpened to hair popping perfection Low resistance, high penetration, broadhead platform. These things help the humans when the nerves are a bit frazzled at 22 yards, in 12 degrees and the big one rolls up.

@@RanchFairy thank you for taking the time to reply in such detailed manner. I totally agree with you here. Just like you, I also believe that a well tuned arrow with the perfect spine coming out of the bow really straight and having a really sharp cut on contact broadhead makes a huge difference, specially if the arrow mass is somewhat heavy regardless of the type of big game your after, up to a point obviously. I read an article a while back of a person that runs a sight (HHA Tetra Max) that allows him to swap yardage wheels without having to re-sight his bow so he can take heavy and light arrows in his quiver and use them as needed. I am the type of person that likes things in the middle of the spectrum, in this case not too heavy and not too light. I am looking forward to see the new videos. Thanks

Every time you do a test You get more ideas to do a better test. The self ascribed “good shooters” are going to see exactly the same thing. It’s not as much ability as the drag and flight trajectory. All the haters will never do it right because it will prove them wrong Brandon is solid

Well buddy - show us better for the sake of bow hunting!!! Send me your data and I’ll use it in a video. Troy@ranchfairy.com. I’ll be waiting and I know the science.

@@tomburrows3608 One of the trad guys can do it But the results are gonna be quite similar WHEN the launch conditions match the projectile

First step. You need to provide the following information so the test will meet a comparative standard. So let's box this up and test it. I've got the animals to do it. We'll start with pigs, since its actually legal. I need you to provide the following: 1. How much every animal will move. To clarify, is it 1 foot and that's it or is it unpredictable? By species would be great, but pigs is where you should begin.....so the test, can be tested. 2. Which direction they will move, if they will move, if they will spin, or drop or roll or spin, drop and roll!! (which is quite common actually) 3. What bones will be in the way, at impact, (which you did not intend to be in the way) for a heavy arrow and a light arrow. troy@ranchfairy.com. Send me the parameters. Let's go!

Still waiting

Let’s do deer b/c most people (i know) are deer hunters 1st and pig hunters ib the off season. I’m not a hater or a math guy… but here are some preliminary numbers for deer drop in this web article I found. Run those numbers and let’s see what the results are . TBH - I shoot a 445 grain arrow at 70lb and 30 inch draw … speed at 292 out of a Lift. My best analogy for FOC comparison is with cars. A Corvette is your speed arrow… Not many of us need that much speed. A ranch fairy arrow is a Peterbilt truck… Not all of us need that much power to get an every day job done …. But if shooting X-Lrg game go heavy! Most of us need a F150 plenty of power and speed and can get most of the jobs done.

@@darinhollingsworth1080 So your analogy is solid. What I can’t get past is two things: (well 3 actually) 1. Our arrows have the KE of 22 Long rifle. 2. An arrow in the 550 grain range has more momentum at 40 yards than a 430 grain arrow at launch. Video coming on that. 3. If the deer (or any animal) were one consistent medium we’d have a pretty easy discussion. But. They are highly variable. Meaning you have no idea what you’re going to hit when you shoot at an animal. Bones, meat, cartilage, every hit is different and requires different levels of momentum. One of the knocks I get a lot is the big game thing. This is not pointed at you - tons of “cool guy” pros have stated this. “For big game sure RF arrow”. So then why is that acceptable for big game? It’s quite the philosophical mis step. My head says. “So how big is big game?” To play devils advocate. I say, to everyone, big game starts at Elk. No one wants to hear that. But Corvette for up to WTD - I’ll play along. F150 for elk and big bears, etc. North America Mack truck for eland and big nasties (Asian / cape buff, etc). But. The Mack truck will do all 3 levels and with gusto! The corvette will not be reliable, but yes you can do it. And it’s been done. I know. But reliably and no 500 nitro saving your butt?

Momentum video coming up.

40 yards is long range? lol.

@@progradepainting3755 yeah past 40 is when you're shooting at animals that duck and run around and shit

@@SirSloop1919 a lot of guys out west here have their first pin set at 40, because it’s a miracle if you can even get that close lol. At 40 yards, I’m drilling a hole the size of a baseball out all day long. So no, this is horrible reasoning. At 20-30 yards, the deer can hear you, smell you, see every little movement you make as you draw. You guys are living in another dimension. We’re talking about a modern compound bow. There are guys with primitive self bows and cane arrows, shooting well under 200 fps who can outshoot the ranch fairy at 40 yards, I mean completely out shoot him. And this guy is using an awesome compound bow. This is just ridiculous at this point.

@@progradepainting3755 cool yeah here on the east coast I’m almost always inside 40, but have gone out to 52 before. Just too much risk in taking a long shot here when you can usually just and get a 20yd chip shot.

Start up an efficient video channel my man

I suck at shooting just enough to be human!! WHEEEEEEEE

I threw them out because I knew it was me and I said that. You can watch other people who NEVER ADMIIT they ever miss or make mistakes - move on man, there’s plenty of people to stroke your tail feathers out there That ain’t me.

@@RanchFairy All of those shots were you, and as a recurve shooter you are probably far better than me at 40 yards. It was just constructive criticism. I'm an avionics flight test engineer: i do stuff like this for a living. Sorry if i upset you bud.

Ehhhh they're not the best shots. You need someone who is a truly good shot. I don't think it's a coincidence or a conspiracy that most pro shooters shoot lighter arrows. They actually have the ability to shoot the groups and tell the difference. Most guys have a spray of arrows and then do this test and say this spray of arrows overlapped my other spray of arrows.. good enough!

@@TheArrowBuilder 😂 story checks out! I’ve watched those videos.