Thanks for the kind feedback - and God's richest blessing to you and yours in this new chapter of your life.

mleeb16 I agree with you. I take it further and say that biblical prophecy has been fulfilled already. Mr. Gore has done a video, or two, on how I believe it worked out. I enjoy his video lessons.

That's because Daniel's 70th week requires some study and meditation. The Revelation is actually describing the coming of Daniel's 70th week. This makes so much sense. Do yourself a favor and read some of Dr. John Walvoord's books.

Bluesman, Dispensationalism is a pack of lies based in large part on a diabolical interpretation of Daniel ch. 9:24-27. I believed these doctrines for 40 years.

It’s not merely a distraction but extremely damaging to the truth of the bible and shapes how you live. People are more interested in the daily life news and try to fit current events to twist what the bible actually teaches. We condemn Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist’s for their dangerous false teachings and this lie is no different.

⁠​⁠@@thv6880you mean this guy is not a dispensationalist? I don’t see anything controversial or anti-dispensational about what he said. What further is there to make up my mind about? Are you messing with me?

same .. it was to hide the identity of the true 2 Thessalonians 2:3 man of sin/ son of perdition who is the Vicar of Christ=666 .. to hide the identity of the beast of Revelation 17 ie the Roman Catholic Church its literally sickening

Once you see it, you can’t unsee it, hey? I have people telling me I’m wrong and I’m a heretic etc etc. but they will never convince me that the prophesies of Jesus and the Revelation of Christ are already fulfilled and we are now caught up with him in the clouds and that the new Kingdom, the Jerusalem is here now. It is us.❤

Genesis of Dispensational Theology kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e8tkhbZm1arSpIU.html PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement. F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26 brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418 Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine Pastor Tim Warner www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf Pretribulationist Revisionism (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints) Pastor Tim Warner www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

I appreciate your testimony. I had a pastor say one time that nobody would come to these conclusions of theology on their own if they just read the bible. It takes men teaching men to keep Dispensation lies going. Many are coming out these days though as faithful people like Bruce restore the understanding of the Gospel once delivered to the Church.

I have a question that in all my searching i just can't seem to understand : Dispensation is the idea that God deals with salvation differently in different times. We are in the time of grace where we are saved by faith. Why or how is Dispensation so interwoven with pretrib? Why can pre trib NOT exist without Dispensation? What does Dispensation bring to table that validates pretrib rapture? In such a case how to you tear down Dispensation so you can unravel pretrib in deceived Christian minds? Ty.

@@destinycoach5 It has always been by faith, Heb 12 Before Jesus they looked forward by faith, Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

@@aktrapper6126 well I don't think this answer had anything to do with dispensation and pre trib rapture but thank you.

Yup, and every year there are a plethora of books & articles about how "This is the end!"

I am not a “dispensationalist” but believe we are not Israel, are saved via a program of grace and that Paul is our apostle. I also believe the Lord when he says no man knows the hour or the day so I don’t engage in that but listen for “the Trump” as Paul speaking for the Lord instructs. and the best thing is by doing it that way EVERYTHING falls into place. so I don’t have to take anyone’s word for it except the Word itself.

I did think it very interesting how Darby divided biblical history into the 7 ages; age of innocence in the garden; then conscience; then civil government, then the patriarchs, then the law, then the gospel of grace and the church, then the return/millenium/final judgment; Darby's great error declaring that God had a different way of salvation with each age: he ignores the clear teaching of scripture that OT and NT saints are saved by grace through faith (and not of ourselves but is gift of God to His elect in all ages). For Darby to dare attribute OT and much of NT only to physiologic Jewish people, and not for the saints (church, elect) is such error and arrogance. End times theology has been a snare for many people, so Calvin would not even do commentary on Revelation.

@@peterdroubay2967 , You are right any age is saved by faith! The difference is how we show this faith! In James 2 as most know this passage very well! James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Luther hated the book of James, because it opposed Romans, Luther didn't have dispensational understanding! Lets look at Romans 4 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. It is impossible to reconcile James 2 and Romans 4 without dispensational understanding, though 99% of Christianity is doing exactly that and butchering the word of God and exactly of this (butchering) are dispenationalists accused! Take the important issue of FORGIVENESS! Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Both scripture passages teach the importance of forgiveness! In Matthew it is conditional based on your performance to forgive first, in Ephesians it is unconditional for the sake of Christ! The first one is under a covenant/law (Israel), the second one is for the body of Christ, under no covenant/law ! God bless You!

@@peterdroubay2967 I have many issues with Calvin and Calvinism, but one thing about him that I do respect is his restraint when it comes to Revelation, something most of his current proponents don't do themselves.

@@peterdroubay2967I believe it was Luther as well who wouldn’t touch Revelation, as far as writing an exegesis.

Yeah, I've had a bit of pain in my toes over the years as well. Thanks!

Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ? (Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30) The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations? 1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? 2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ? 3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds? 4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh? 5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers? 6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"? 7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost? 8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.) 9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) 10. Watch the KZfaq video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church. Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church: “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107. Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.” Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323. John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated… "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.” John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.) What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16? Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth? Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups? Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13? Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?

@@SpotterVideo God has joined all of His believers into one Body, Jew and Gentile. And "what God has joined together, let not man put asunder," not even John Nelson Darby.

@@kingfisher5200 Amen. Christ is the King of Israel in John 1:49. He is the Head, and we are His Body. The two cannot be separated. We are covered by the King of Israel's blood.

​@@SpotterVideoFANTASTIC WORK IN THIS!! Thank you!!!

Yeah, I pretty much fail the 'woke' test.

How are these heresies?

Just because you disagree with something does not make it heretical. These are in house issues that can be debated.

If they aren't true then they are heresies full of lies. The future of liars ( Rev 21:8 )

I agree with that!

Amillenniism certainly isn’t the answer to Dispensational Premillennialism. Historical Premillennialism IS the answer to both.

@Vara Sue Tamminga , what is more compassionate what Jesus taught in the 4 Gospels or what Jesus teaches through Paul for the body of Christ! Lets take Forgiveness! Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Both scripture passages teach the importance of forgiveness! In Matthew (Gospel) it is conditional based on your performance to forgive first, in Ephesians it is unconditional for the sake of Christ! The first one is under a covenant/law (Israel), the second one is for the body of Christ, under no covenant/law ! God bless You!

Welcome aboard!

Have you done anything on your own?

Jeff Durbin is amillenial I wouldn’t listen to him he thinks revelation already happened

Guess who penned this verse? Paul! Who was the dispensation of grace given to? Paul! The church age (Body of Christ) never ends, this is correct, but it ends on earth, that why we have a Pre-trib rapture! Body of Christ eternal destiny is heaven, Israel's eternal destiny is a Heavenly kingdom on earth! (The our father prayer) God bless You!

@@rlrett1

Matthew 21:33-46

True

So true, well said.

Absolutely, you are so correct.

I might add that on a dollars and cents spread sheet the book sellers of America are making a killing off of this end time craziness. The Tim La Haye, Jerry Jenkins Left Behind series made a bunch of money and the films. Nicholas Cage needs the money.

Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible were Lucifer's deception yet again, to undermine Christian unity under Jesus of Nazareth. Sadly, many have fallen away in the last 150 years or so.

Wanda Rivera it’s not easy to undo what is taught in your church. Maybe the best thing is to distance yourself from the church to undo the thinking of Darby. That means you might even distance yourself from your family as well if they are attending as well.

@@gilgalbiblewheel6313 yes you can do something about what your church teaches. You question to what they preach and have them show you in the Bible where it says that... Be bold and question all things and your Bible Trump's what your pastor or my pastor teach. I've question my pastor about the pretrib and he could not show me one thing the says we would be raptured before the tribulation. So as christains we should rightly divide the word of God. Not how Schofield thinks you should. But do it the right way..

@777Greanline i dont understand but the bible says he is coming with the voice of an arch angel to take us can you please open my eyes

There are hundreds of millions who believe that's WHAT the Bible teaches...go to the Early church fathers and see authentic interpretation....www.newadvent.org/fathers.......

I am not really studying the dispensation theology. I just wanted to know wher it came from. But i do agree with you people need to read their own bibles.

You are very confused!

@RCS I just read the same thing in the comments. Someone said that at the end of everything, Israel would be on earth with God and Christians in Heaven with Jesus. I did follow pretrib rapture dispensationalism but after looking into history, I’d say I’m more thinking post millennial. Otherwise Jesus isn’t reigning now , well the bible clearly states that He is.

Yes, I agree. Dispensationalism has adjusted many of its more egregious ideas since the time of Scofield, but it still remains a sad distraction from the Bible's central message. Thanks for the feedback!

I hope your talking about a guy named Bruce Gore out of Spokane, Washington. He will tell you all you need to know about John Nelson Darby. And more than that He is the best teacher I've heard.

Delighted to hear it, but with this caveat. Never trust some guy on KZfaq. Search the scriptures to see whether these things are true! Thanks again, and blessings in your studies.

sorry... to continue .... that I found the Truth at such a time as this.

There is some truth in what you say, with the following caveats. First, 'most' seminaries in America today do not follow a dispensational interpretive framework. Second, while dispensationalism claims to take a 'literal' approach to the scripture, it is really a kind of selective literalism, that often ignores the genre of the text, whether poetic, apocalyptic, symbolic, parabolic, etc. A true 'literal' approach to the Bible means a respect for the literature, which is frequently ignored by dispensational interpreters. Finally, while I fully agree with your mention of the 'lowly ones' who learn directly from the Holy Spirit, it is worth noting that the vast mainstream of the Christian Tradition, in all three of its major forms (Eastern, Catholic, Protestant), have not followed a dispensational approach. This has rather been a distinctive feature of American Evangelical Christianity for reasons I develop in these lectures. Thanks for your interest!

Bruce, you are without a doubt my favorite and most beloved Bible teacher on the planet. I have listened to your entire series and some segments over and over. Thank you for your love of the Lord and His word and the thousands of hours of labor you have spent meditating and praying over it. I can't believe you actually took the time to respond to my comment. This was the most harsh and confrontational thing I have ever been led to post. I posted it mostly on the sites that are our oldest and most respected Dispensational teachers. You know who they are. It has taken me seven years for the Lord to lead me out of my Scofield Bible training. I studied 20 hours a week upon my retirement without any commentaries. That was the assignment the Lord gave me. It took 5 years before I would even think about what I am now sharing with my own Bible class as truth. The dispensational teaching that Jehovah is the husband of Israel and Christ is the husband of the church, I believe is an attack on the deity of Christ by making Him separate in nature and purpose from the divine being. Blessings upon you my beloved brother, I shall continue praying for your wonderful service to our Lord. I'm also up and in complete agreement with everything you responded with in your kind answer.

Thanks for your kind comments.

Lee Bradford Lee , have a look at Jacob Prasch's moriel ministry talk on dispensationalism. He has an annoying Brooklyn Jew accent but he lays it down. So does David Pawson. And Mister Gore. It's good to get a full view. God bless you - it's not easy when we confront bad teaching in our own denominations.

@@GoreBruce : Isn't it also the case that dispensationalism fails to follow the New Testament's pattern of interpreting the OT Christocentrically?

I appreciate very much your kind feedback, and I hope you'll stay in touch!

Forget religion and throw yourself upon CHRIST!!!!!!!! I too was raised up in the lie of Dispensationalism. I also figured out pretty quick that Preterism is also incorrect. After searching the denominations, I soon decided, I don't want any of them. No more isms for me... YESHUA is all you/I need!! Atheism is nonsense.... Please don't stay where you are now! Much love...

SAD TO HEAR THIS MY FRIEND...THE GOSPEL is a message of GOOD NEWS about a PERSON...JESUS CHRIST! Of God's great love for you and sending His Only Son to die for your and my sins! a promise of ETERNAL LIFE...FREE FROM ALL FEAR! Read the Bible for you self and look unto Jesus who will not fail you like a human organization.

The modern skeptics and scientists want everyone to believe that something comes from nothing----ask yourself how could this be?---not through their theories I assure you.

Daniel Miller if you look into flat earth for 1 day with a mind that can discern what your eyes see... you will not be an atheist for very long. The bible is the truth. If you find that too much start with NASA or any other space agency frauds... there are thousands of video bloopers.

Thanks for that, and welcome aboard!

Not Hitler?

Hal still pushing his lies.

Thanks for your clarity!

Oh please it is not another gospel. The gospel is Christ come in the flesh, crucified and resurrected offering salvation by grace through faith to all who believe. Whether you’re a dispy or not has nothing to do with it. Please don’t cause division over something like this. I’m no longer a dispensationalist but know many who are and they are not believing in another gospel or doctrine of demons. It’s Christ alone who saves, as long as we have that right, it’s the main thing.

@@bell5309 Oh its another Gospel alright, it puts confidence in the flesh. It is the "other Gospel" the apostle Paul warned about in Galatians.

Thank you!

I know your comment was from years ago, but I just found this video today, and I can confidently say that dispensationalism is all over the Midwest where I've lived my entire life. I know for sure in no uncertain terms that at least one of the churches I attended in my lifetime, were definitely dispensationalist.i don't know about my cirrent one since they don't really speak about things explicitly in that manner, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if many of the people in my church at the very least have dispensationalist beliefs mixed in with more true teachings and simply hold a number of dissonant beliefs because they weren't taught to recognize them for what they are. Take my parents for example. I think it's pretty safe to say that they have dispensationalist assumptions in many respects, but even though dispensationalism is basically a relativist belief system, they also believe true things that God never chamges, that truth and salvation is constant throughout all time and that relativism is false. They just don't understand how some of their dispensationalist assumptions about scripture that were ingraimed into them comtradict many of their other, just as, if not more deeply held beliefs. I think they, like many people wherever I've lived, do have the core tenets of the faith down, but they hold a lot of assumed ideas that implicitly contradict or challenge them because they come from an evangelical culture so mired in a lot of these ideas.

+chocolatethundercat Thank you!

What do you think about this @Bruce kzfaq.info/get/bejne/prdng9mpq9bTcqs.html Thank you

That's good! It reminds me of comment made to me once. "What do you call a Catholic who has read straight through the Bible?"...a Protestant. (from a former Catholic friend of mine). All the best my friend.

Then repent from your secularism and believe upon The Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

@@ParrotAndStick I would go with Jewish god probably lol

A Victorious Church Certainly!

Thank you.

Q

Amen to that.

Straw man argument, dispensationalism is not a monolith. Almost all dispensationalists believe in salvation by faith alone, through Christ alone, in all dispensations. I encourage you to read or listen to John MacArthur a self described "leaky dispensationalist". It is true that Darby and SOME of the early dispensationalists (not Moody nor most) did go too far.

The break, or "parenthesis" is actually taught in Daniel 9:26-27. The angel's prophecy is broken up itself into 3 parts, not given as 1 part. By the end of the first part, 49 years, the temple will be rebuilt, and it was. Then AFTER the end of the second part, 483 years, Messiah will be cut off, or crucified. That is important because to take it literally, Jesus' death happened after the second part, but before the third part, 1 week, 7 years. The "he" in verse 27 refers to the prince who is to come. The New Testament teaches about this one to come, the Antichrist, as one who has not yet arrived even in our day. To believe that the glorious kingdom, where there is perfect peace and everyone is provided for, is already here, now that's hard to believe. Jesus spoke of the great Tribulation to come 500 years after Daniel.

Then you should not abandon it, unless God shows you a better way.

@@GoreBruce yes I am not going to.

Actually, most theologians admit that pre-trib eschatology is what you come up with if you read the texts literally. So, a plain reading of scripture is where the rapture, a future for national Israel and Christ's Millennial Kingdom come from, not some guy named Darby.

@@DennisSchilling-vs2uc who is Darby? Im talking about real Bible believers Dr Gene Kim dispensationslism KZfaq. Watch them sometime and develop your critical thinking skills. Stop being a mocking bird

Without dispensationalism , I just wondered how the Israelites got saved before the advent of Christ? Could it be their sacrificial system and or the baptism of John or just plain faith on God's promises like Abraham's? Or just that it was confirmed by Jesus Christ Himself when He went down to Paradise in Hades?

What faith "Good works"? those only they whom continue on will be transformed into Sons? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have You ever read the book of Ephesians? Ephesians 1:12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT UNTIL >>>>Ephesians 4:30) Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (SHOULD, not must or have to) 2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. The moment we believed we died with him, but not all of us suffer for him, and for those of us who don't (deny him), He will deny our reward, but He cannot deny our salvation, because when we believed the first time we were irrevocable sealed into the Body of Christ! HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF! I love Paul's statement in Romans 8 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. God bless You!

@@rlrett1Romans 3:22 , righteousness of God is by faith in Jesus Christ , to all them who believe , 3: 24 we are justified by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 3: 28 We hold that a man is justified by faith without works of Law. Romans 6: 1 What then should we continue in sin because Grace abounds? Not by any means. We who have died to sin, how can we continue to live in sin? 6: 11, So you must consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God in Jeus Christ, 6: 12 let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body that you should obey its carnal desires. 6 : 16 For whom you obey you are a slave to. Either sin which leads to death or OBEDIENCE that leads to righteousness. 6: 17 but thanks to God , you who were once enslaved to sin have become OBEDIENT from the heart to the teaching committed to you. Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring the Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE OF THE FAITH for his names sake 1:6 including you whom are called to Jesus Christ. Romans 2 : 6 He will render to each one according to his WORKS, 2: 7 to those who by patience in well doing ( obedience) seek for glory ( the rapture at the end of this age and the new heaven and earth) he will give eternal life. 2: 8 but for those who are self seeking , and DO NOT OBEY the truth but OBEY unrighteousness there will be wrath and fury. (Then on the last day Hell fire.) Romans 6 :1 what then are we to continue sinning that grace abounds? Not at all. 6:16 Do you not know you are a slave ( the property of ) whom you obey. If you obey sin , death , but OBEDIENCE (of faith in Jesus) leads to righteousness..6:17 but thanks be to God , for you were once the slave ( property of sin) have become OBEDIENT from the heart to the gospel committed to you. 6: 19 ......for righteousness leads to sanctification 6 : 22 you are now set free from sin, ( no longer under sins power) you are Gods property and the fruit or evidence of this is sanctification ( holiness) that leads to eternal life. I could go on and on.. but thats your responsibility to learn. The fruit of salvation in a believer, that he is saved, is holiness.

@@Exodus--bx3ddmentions

Feel free to e-mail me at bruce@brucegore.com

guess youll be left behind then

Traditional dispensational teaching asserts that Jesus offered himself to Israel as her king in the first century, and Israel rejected Jesus. Thus the kingdom did not come in at that time, but rather waits for the 'kingdom' age, the millennium, which is yet future. Classic Christian understand would affirm that Jesus is king right now, that the kingdom was inaugurated with the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, and that he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet, the last of which is death.

Bruce, so is dispensation so called "rightly dividing the word" incorrect teaching ? I'm a infant Christian trying to understand , figure out all these. Many thks.

The word Paul used in 2 Timothy 2:15, which is translated into English as 'dividing' does not mean 'dividing' as dispensationalists suggests, namely, separating the Bible into various 'dispensations.' It means 'dividing' as in dissecting, looking deep within to determine the true character of the thing being studied, as a biologist might dissect an organism to determine its inner character.

The 2nd great awakening had a dramatic affect on American and to a lesser degree on English or european christianity. 7th day adventism, mormonism, jehovahs witnesses all had beginnings credited to the 2nd great awakening.You mentioned Charles Taze Russsell, 1852- 1916.founder of the Jehovahs Witnesses. Many of his ideas didn't start with him, the middle 19th century was a flurry of Christian activity. The 2nd coming of Christ according to William Miller and the Millerite movement Oct.22 1844. didnt happen. It became known as the great disappointment. And indeed it was. Charles Taze Russell was one of those people after that time who like a lot of folks wanted to know why Jesus didn't appear in 1844. So began the quest for future dates and to get it right. To my knowledge the Jehovahs Witnesses are still trying to figure out when a 2nd coming will occur. I am not a J.W. anf I don't recommend them.

Your question is a little too undefined for me to respond. Is this a movement?

@@GoreBruce en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_grace_theology

Thank you for your thoughtful review. As a former dispensationalist myself, I understand and have some sympathy for the arguments you make here. I used to make them myself! You might be interested in an excellent and even handed assessment of the history of dispensationalism available from Amazon at the link below. Whether you agree with the author's conclusions or night, I guarantee you will find it informative. Thanks again. www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Dispensationalism-Evangelical-Battle/dp/0802879225/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1K693AQ0EIBZZ&keywords=the+rise+and+fall+of+dispensationalism&qid=1698842932&sprefix=the+rise+and+fall+of+dispensationalsi%2Caps%2C297&sr=8-1

rossjpurdy Thanks for your questions. On the first, Scofield modified Darby's system to some degree, but certainly relied heavily on Darby's commentary as he developed his dispensational understanding. Virtually every important dispensational thinker has been forced to introduce significant adjustments to allow for the changing geo-political situation of the times. On the second, I suggest you look at David MacPherson, The Rapture Plot (Simpsonville, SC: Millennium III Pub, 1995).

***** Scofield's scheme is virtually identical to Isaac Watt's scheme and yes I know Watt's is not a dispensationalist. The difference between Scofield and Darby is far more than a modification, Scofield's adoption of a dispensation of grace for the church age qualifies as a fundamental change from Darby. Re: Macpherson, I don't consider a failed tabloid journalist and conspiracy jockey a legitimate go to for any historical facts. I don't understand how his fiction has captured the imaginations of so many who I would think would know better! If you have based ANYTHING on his materials, you ought to quickly edit it out or find a legit source for the info!

rossjpurdy Thanks for your thoughts!

***** Re: Macpherson, I hope that did not come across as too bombastic. I don't know if there will be many who even care. Dispensationalists will dismiss him out of hand and anyone trying to use his material to convince dispensationalists are going to be dismissed too. He is not adding anything of value to the discussion nor to an evaluation of dispensationalism. Those who take the time to read several of his books are going to find them mostly repetitive and aimed at making dispensationalists look like some devious secret society plotting to deceive all of Christianity. He gives no one their due respect especially Darby. Darby was brilliant enough to concoct his own theology without help. Darby was not interested in reforming the church like Irving, he was opposed to it and outright rejected it. Darby would have been repulsed by any charismania as well, and I think it incredible that he would borrow or incorporate anything from Irving or his ilk. A catching away was not unique to Irving and MacDonald's rapture was a partial midtrib affair nothing like Darby. As far as Darby's influence upon American dispensationalism is concerned, no doubt it was great. But American Dispensationalism crossed many denominational lines and was being admixed with a variety of other influences. So much so was that true that Darby became frustrated with the Americans, particularly Moody. Point being no one slavishly followed Darby and no one slavishly followed Scofield. The Scofield Bible is greatly beloved but it is not a doctrinal statement or some kind of "common prayer book" for evangelicals as some critics try to make it out to be. Case in point are Mid-Acts dispensationalists today who would disagree with a lot of Scofield's material, yet there are many who love their Scofield Bible. I know some who can't function without it because they have it so visually referenced in their minds when looking up Scriptures! I would go as far as to say that while the Scofield Bible is an important part of dispensational heritage, it is not so important anymore to modern dispensational theology. One would not know that by Dispensationalism's critics though, it seems most of them see fit to quote and attack Scofield in order to defeat dispensationalism! It is unusual if they quote someone who has not been dead for 60 years, except for Ryrie on occasion. In any case, there are virtually no in depth competent critiques of dispensationalism that I can find (and forget about any dealing with Mid-Acts or Acts 28 flavors). Again, it was refreshing to come upon your presentation and find it fair and balanced. But avoid MacPherson like the plague though.

rossjpurdy I'm somewhat surprised at your statement about 'virtually no in depth competent critiques of dispensationalism...' Are you dismissing House Divided (Bahnsen and Gentry), Last Days Madness (Demar), Before Jerusalem Fell (Gentry), Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth (Gerstner), just to name a few?

Rev.22:18,19 is a warning to anyone who wants to play fast and loose with this prophecy. I hold in complete disdain J. N. Darby, C.I.Scofield, and anyone else past ,present and future who teaches this misrepresentation of prophecy in regard to the latter days. Heed the warning .

@@davidwoods6015 i agree that Darby is full of garbage, but I don't know that I'd draw as extreme a conclusion as you do. Misunderstanding biblical prophecy is the norm. The fact that Revelation in particular is such a difficult book to comprehend is why the Eastern Orthodox hesitate to even teach out of it to the masses in their services. It's really easy to misonterpret and not quite "get it." Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like this warning is more applicable to those who deliberately try to twist Scripture from what they know is true in order to manipulate and deceive people, not referring to honest misonterpretationor ignorance.

+Bevaleigh As far as I know, there is no distinct "Presbyterian" view of these questions. The Reformed Tradition, in which the Presbyterian church is found, embraces a variety of perspectives. My own view is that the 'mark of the beast' (666) is the numeric value of the name of Nero, and that the book of Revelation generally describes events of the first century. (See Ken Gentry, The Beast of Revelation, ICE, 1989). Dispensationalism is distinguished primarily by insistence that God has two separate redemptive programs in history, one for the church and one for Israel, and that the two are not to be confused. The traditional view (and my view) is that the true Israel in the Old Testament and the true Israel in the New Testament are one and the same family of faith (Rom. 9:6). Thus the Christian church can properly be called true Israel, the seed of Abraham by faith, and heirs of the promises made to Abraham and his seed (Gal. 3, Eph. 2). The New Testament certainly warns that Christ can return at any time, and we should be vigilant and watchful. That also appears to be the main thrust of the parable of the virgins. Thanks!

TheCynicogue Did you notice the pyramid on William Branhams grave?

William Branham is bad news from beginning to end.

@@honeycomb9273 never been

The word is 'orthotomeo,' to rightly cut. It refers to cutting into something to understand it, as in dissecting or analyzing.

@@GoreBruce thanks for responding. so he means what he says: that there are different messages God has in different ages. which is why when you do you don’t end up with confusion such as we here in the age of Grace being tied to and a replacement for Israel when Paul tells us clearly that we all are saved the same way, by grace and grace alone. “times past” when Gentiles had no hope is clearly not what is happening now as Jews have no special access to God and we all approach God via accepting the cross work and resurrection of Jesus Christ. this age will end as the ones preceding: when God has determined that the intended audience is beyond redemption (Noah’s flood, Israel being set aside) this age will end with the Gentiles being found as reprobate rejects and the Lord coming to call out the believers, meet them in the air and save them from the wrath to come laid out in John’s Revelation. that’s just the book. what the dispensationalists get caught up is trying to fit God into their calendar instead of just going by what the book says…if you have a KJV that is.

@@paulray494 Of course not. A good recent historical review of Dispensationalism should be consulted for further information: www.eerdmans.com/Products/7922/the-rise-and-fall-of-dispensationalism.aspx.

@@GoreBruce yes, that provides a history of “the church” and the philosophical underpinnings of the religions that have sprung up out of those underpinnings with an eye toward replacing Israel (which plays right into Satan’s hands, I digress) but what of what the text actually says. but Paul speaks of believers as being at liberty, at being in essence beyond religion. the issue you have with rightly dividing seems to be around the “religious” elements of dispensationalism (such as misuse of historical events to create a “timeline” that in essence puts God on a clock based on erroneous man made claims that Jesus in his earthly incarnation presumed not to do) that lead to events such as the “Great Disappointment” instead of just reading what’s there and knowing the time will be up when we meet Christ in the air, that we are not appointed to God’s wrath that is coming once “what letheth” ( which is the brake that is the Body of Christ) is out of the way and the Revelation can be fulfilled just as God via Jesus through John said it will be. just as he bought the flood, just as he sent Israel into exile, just as he sacrificed himself on the cross he will finish his business with Israel, the nations, reprobate humankind and Satan as it says in the book…literally.

As I mention in my presentation, there has always been a debate about basis for Darby's views. The report regarding Margaret MacDonald has obviously been disputed, but it nevertheless has been seen as credible by many.

@@GoreBruce Thanks for your response, Bruce. How would your view of Darby and Dispensationalism change if did not find the prophecy of MacDonald as credible? To me if he *does* find her credible it sends up all kinds of red flags, but otherwise I'm not so sure...

My views would not change at all. Dispensationalism is biblically indefensible (and positively harmful) for reasons far more profound than mere questions regarding the origins of the 'rapture' theory.

@@GoreBruce Do you have any talks and/or resources you recommend that go into detail of the error of dispensationalism?

This is a good place to start. www.amazon.com/House-Divided-Break-up-Dispensational-Theology/dp/B002K7SP12/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1548693223&sr=8-2&keywords=gentry+house+divided Thanks!

Precisely.

As a memorial of Jesus death in the past, the picture looked at again. The Millennium will be the last time that God will use to show the sinfulness of the human heart, even in a perfect environment, with perfect justice and all needs met. See Revelation 20:7-10. This is just prior to the Great White Throne judgment. How can you deny the Millennial Kingdom but purport to believe in the final judgment?