EAST MEETS WEST! As a Missouri Synod pastor, I have to say, this is the most promising theological encounter i can imagine. An Orthodox symbologist westerner with deep scriptural insight dialogues with a scholastic evangelical catholic who wrote a book on how theosis underlies our tradition. The evil one tried to make this conversation a nonstarter. You are both great communicators in your respective traditions… Please give it another go!

The crossover, we didn't expect, but the one we needed the most. Looking forward to watching this Dr. Cooper!

As a Lutheran who really appreciates Pageau, I’ve been waiting for this conversation!

God be praised for the systematic theology of the West. Mr. Pageau reflects in his difficulty with Justification what the experience is with much of the East. Formerly Lutheran here, now Orthodox. But when converting, our wise priest made it clear that we’re not to renounce the foundational and meaningful truths and experiences. Many a bridge could be built with not just head understanding but a lot of loving and heart felt prayer. Glory to God.

This was a wonderful example of dialogue across traditions. Recognizing the complexities of categories and language, yet both Pageau and Cooper understand enough of the other's tradition to get past the stereotypes and caricatures. There is much more in common than there are differences. This conversation brought this out.

As a Lutheran who is attending orthodox services due to… geographical issues this is a talk I always wanted but never thought would happen! 😂

Hey, you guys are two of my favorite Christian KZfaq Intellectuals, so this was a real treat, and honestly I think Jonathan’s approach was (for me) more clearly and accessibly expressed here than in any other video of his that I’ve watched, which is a credit to both of you

I really admire the way Dr. Cooper interacts with people he disagrees with. He really demonstrates how to be both smart and kind.

Okay. I just now finished the entire conversation. This was actually very excellent. Great format. Good work here, gentlemen. God bless the whole Christian Church. ✝️

Now I'm one of the BIGGEST Jordan Cooper fans but this whole "Reformed don't like beauty" myth is just as silly as the more general "Protestants don't like beauty" myth, which Dr. Cooper as a Lutheran knows isn't true. EVERY mainline Presbyterian Church, whether PCUSA or Church of Scotland, is absolutely beautiful. PCUSA churches almost all have great music ministries. Some of the more EVANGELICAL Presbyterian denominations, like PCA or OPC, do lack beauty, but it's due to a combination of Baptist/Evangelical influence on them and a lack of resources due to splitting off from the mainline.

Loved the honesty of Pageau's response to how Lutherans and Reformed might think. It's so helpful to see how easily we talk past each other. What seems obviously true to one can be shockingly unthinkable to another.

I think there was agreement on many parts but using different language and different perspectives that made it difficult to see how similar yalls views were. I think one could phrase justification by faith toward an eastern orthodox in a more accessible way as: "we are created into something new and begin acting and participating in that new creation. That new creation being a part of the body of Christ, which is only possible by Christ taking the the imperfectness of the new creation upon himself. And the new creation is only born from the perfect life of Christ that is given to the Church to allow us to walk in Him." Or something like that. I prefer the heavy categorized and systematic way that Luther would say it lol. Much love to both of yall. Big fan of both and both have been very helpful for me in growing in knowledge and faith.

Brilliant interview with Jonathan Pageau: there is a quality quite profound to the conversation. Interesting is his heartfelt praise of the Christians he knew growing up in a Baptist church. Eucharist as a coming together of heaven and earth,

This was a beautiful, good, and true conversation. I really enjoyed it.

A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one. Getting into the sense-making community, you need to reach out to Paul Vanderklay next lol

Wonderful conversation. Big fan of both of you. Do it again!

Hello, Dr Cooper! I pray you feel better soon. That was a wonderful exchange between two of my favorite youtubers. My wish is that it is the first of many between you.

Thank you for this very edifying conversation!

Yyeessss!!!!! 2 of my favorite channels, highlight of my week right here.

Yes! Been rooting for this for a long time now.

Converted to E. Orthodoxy in 2001 from Judaism, never looked back. Excellent interview

This was beautiful! Watching you two come from your different worlds and bring them into this gorgeous dance in search of how to unite theology with experience was a rewarding experience for me. I too came across Jonathan through JP and I thought he was too loose (not morally but in terms of his non-technical approach) but after this conversation I feel he may have something that I have been looking for. Keen to get into it more! Thank you so much!

WOOHOOO IT FINALLY HAPPENED IVE BEEN ASKING FOR THIS FOR MONTHS

Please do this again! I’ve listened a lot to the conversations between pageau and Paul vanderklay, and although I love Paul (and pageau for that matter), I’ve always wanted to hear dialogue with pageau and a partner who is speaking more out of his tradition. Paul is fantastic, but he rarely challenges pageau from his own tradition. Hope pageau is interested, and sees the value. It’s so strange to me, that he finds justification in the real world such a flabbergasting notion.

That was a beautiful conversation. It was interesting to see two people in good faith talk about differences and recognize where they actually disagree and where words and intellectual fetishes we're just getting in the way.

The conversation I have wanted for years 🙏💫

20 mins in...this might become a favorite of your vids. Great discussion.

This is one of the best videos/discussions I’ve seen from either of you. I’m studying Church Music at a Lutheran University and I’m taking multiple classes on Worship Theology starting next Spring. I will definitely use this as a reference going into those classes, especially since this seems to strongly make a case against what I see to be a watered down generic Protestant worship occurring in lots of the church. I’ll also see if I can convince my Greek professor to study one of the Fathers mentioned like Maximus the Confessor in a readings class later on.

Hi Dr. Cooper! I am so happy to see you two sit down and have a conversation and hope there are further discussions now that you are quasi-familiar with each other’s perspectives. One thing I would love to hear more about is the use and creation of artwork in our daily lives and worship. As an illustrator the discussion of aesthetics and the incarnation view of art is a fascinating one. I also would love to hear more about museums as the cemetery of art. Thanks!

Can't wait to listen to this. Great to have wonderful Christian thinkers having a conversation.

A very excellent interview. Pageau brings such a unique perspective to the table, would love to see another collaboration with him at some point.

This was a really good chat. Im really thankful Jonathan questioned Jordan in love about some of his Lutheran presuppositions in regards to imputed righteousness etc. and its lack of historical context, despite Jordan trying to use St Athanasius as proof text. We need to speak truth in love and not sacrifice it in the sake of unity. That's why I really respect Jordan for chatting with Dr Ortlund about the truth of baptismal regeneration etc.

You could record a video on Pageau's take on Luther at the beginning. I would be interested in this discussion.

WOAH! Did not see this coming. Well done, Dr. Cooper!

Dr. Cooper, have you by chance read Dr. Bradshaw’s Aristotle East and West? I think it might help you understand the reception of philosophical categories in the Eastern tradition.

Man what Jonathan said about forgiveness starting at 1:10min rearranged my brain and it was awesome!

Awesome! Had no idea this happened. Gonna watch it now.

This is some high.quality discourse. I enjoyed it greatly.

Wow! Got here from PVK, but this is Great ! Pageau and Peterson had done it again! 😅 Thank you gentelmen, and God bless.

Thank you for doing this Dr. Cooper, I've been feeling very drawn to Orthodoxy over the past year almost entirely because of Pageau

I love the insights from Jonathan Pageau. He is a simple & deep thinker.

Great conversation!

Good job! The matchup may have been a bit awkward to navigate for both of you, but in the end each tradition got covered well in the broad sense. Pageau is somewhat unique, even within Eastern Orthodoxy. It would be interesting to see you have a theological dialogue with another Eastern Orthodox personality who frequents KZfaq, but I’m not sure who that should be.

Oh my it's happening, just stay calm!

What is art? Art is the purposeful joining of things together towards a telos. Brilliant! I converted from Missouri synod to Russian Orthodox. Baptized last pascha. Jonathan was a big influence on my conversion and I still listen to Dr Cooper a lot also so this was a fun conversation

Do another one please we want to hear a more focused discussion.

This is the most significant conversation on your channel. Wow. Maybe give it another go?

As a Reformed Baptist pastor, I do find this discussion very helpful. It is true that those from a puritanical tradition often overlook the importance of ritual and incarnation in a pursuit of the reality behind those rituals. At the same time, I do think the Puritan movement was necessary. Puritan tradition, and Baptist tradition specifically, pointed out that, in the times in which they were founded and I think often times today as well (Even in Baptist churches) the shadow can take precedent over the spiritual reality, even obscuring it. In the early days of the Baptist tradition, England was a place where everyone went to church. No matter who they were. Everyone was baptized, whether they're parents took the faith seriously or not. The Baptist movement began as a pushback against this, arguing that a true church cannot be made up of the entire population of a country, but rather of those whose hearts God had touched (Andrew Fuller's words). The Baptist movement has had a beneficial influence, I think, in all Christian traditions by putting the reality into focus again, albeit often at the expense of completely dismissing the shadows of tradition and ritual that are important in this life to lead us to those realities. It seems to me that a balance between the two is necessary, and I think the early Baptists and reformers in general were much better at this than we are today. For example, most if not all early baptists had a real presence view of the Lord's Table, while this is rare in Reformed Baptist circles today. I'd like to see a return to a realization of the significance of the shadow while still keeping the ultimate spiritual reality in view. That being said, I am very comfortable being a Baptist because in the New Testament we do see a transition away from shadows and types (including those expressed in art) into the spiritual reality. This is where I think the regulatory principle is biblically sound; because it agrees with the New Testament's focus on shifting to the reality. We see this, for example, in the great reduction of Sacramental rituals from all the instructions on the construction of the tabernacle, the temple, and public worship found in the Old Testament down to just two Sacraments: Baptism and the Lord's Supper. The rituals are by no means done away with, nor do they lose their significance, but an emphasis on these rituals is lessened as we move from the Old Testament into the New. We also see this in a lower emphasis on marriage in the New Testament than in the old (singleness is introduced as a legitimate and even superior way of living as a Christian than married life, although most Christians should still get married because of weakness according to 1st Corinthians 7. In the Old Testament, the idea of unmarried follower of God is almost unheard of and when marriage is mentioned, the focus is on the reality behind marriage, which is Christ in the church such as we see in Ephesians 5). Shadows are still there, but they are breaking away in the New Testament to the spiritual realities behind them. That is what I think the traditional Baptist position tries to hold on to, although recently most reformed baptists have strayed away from that balance.

Thank you for the conversation! Very interesting and I rejoice to see folks across denominations magnifying the beauty of the liturgy. Question for my Orthodox brothers: when we Lutherans discuss the saints of old (the ones we honour), we are implying that they are saints just as we are, but we recognise that they lived a life worthy of imitation, pointing us to Christ; but their "saintliness" is the same holiness given by grace to all believers. How the does Eastern Orthodoxy understand sainthood?

Exciting to see thinkers I follow in dialogue to exchange ideas in real time! As a truth seeker who's open to theology, philosophy, and science, I think both of you appeal to that kind of audience and I hope to do likewise on my own channel. Peterson next?

Jordan you might be interested in a conversation with Seraphim Hamilton (Eastern Orthodox) on Orthodox Biblical theology, Philosophy, Symbolism etcc.. James Jordan and Peter leithart had a big impact on him. Check out his Channel its just “Seraphim Hamilton”

Great video!

I really enjoyed this conversation. Too often we talk past each other, I would like a reformed theologian to one day also participate in this discussion. Maybe the pastor from truth unites.

Lol... Love your work bro! Praying for your speedy recovery.

Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick “Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy” outlines differences between various church theologies. And I had the hardest time wrapping my head around Lutheran theology!

When you hire a podcast producer, can you have a show notes page with links to things that are mentioned in the episode - like St. John of Damascene’s On the Incarnation and the Renewal of Creation?

I'm so looking forward to listening to this crossover episode 😃

Have y’all read “you are what you love” by James k a smith, or any of his other works in his cultural liturgies series? It goes over what’s being discussed throughout this video about how we all have rituals and liturgies that we do, secular ones largely, and how they affect us and how we can bring in new rituals and liturgies for God through practice which turns to habit which turns to virtue. It’s a really great book and the series I haven’t finished but it all looks really good.

Great discussion.

Absolutely fascinating dialogue! Jonathan Pageau conveyed some really intriguing thoughts and ideas about art being incarnational expression and participation. But when the conversation became more theological, I can’t help but think that his understanding of being a Christian lacks that anchor of the doctrine of forensic justification through faith in Christ’s atonement. It is the Holy Spirit’s enlightenment of this doctrine that really gives Christians such confidence in God’s mercy and love toward us and empowers us to live lives that are becoming more just and good in subjective reality until we reach that telos - glorification at the resurrection.

I would love to see a update conversation between you two

I have a question for you. Do you have book recommendations to learn more detailed in on Lutheran faith. I did get the previous books from your 5 book recommendations video I feel like I've been lead to become a leader in the church for several years but I'm 42 and not going to go back to school for it but I want to be more knowledgeable without a degree.

Thanks Jonathan and Jordan!

More than a few people in recent years have noted the slow convergence of Confessional Lutheran thought and Orthodoxy.

I hope you can talk again. I thought the conversation was really good!

Pretty please can we have a part 2?

you agree on teleology. quoting The Last Samurai: "dis was a berry good conversation." I dictate thus for phonetic authenticity, Not in Jest.

Great discussion and balanced view on Luther.

Thinking about Jonathan Pageau’s questions about forensic justification; he asks “What does it *mean*, and how does that manifest in reality (like in creation for example)”. Could debt be understood through creation, in terms of when God speaks, “Let there be light”, and then creation is indebted to God for there to be light. Therefore light comes into existence, because it is indebted to God to exist by his forensic declaration? I don’t really know what I’m saying. I just like pretending to understand big words. Let me know if any of that makes sense.

The Didache instructs the Gentile Churches to "Appoint for yourselves therefore bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men who are meek and not lovers of money, and true and approved; for unto you they also perform the service of the prophets and teachers." Which kind of leads credence to the idea, that in the early Church, congregations could choose their own Elders/Priests without needing Bishops or Apostles from other Churches to come and elect them. Thoughts?

Super thankful for this interview! Dr. Cooper, even though I know you probably don't want to hear this, your explanation of the young restless and reformed movement was one of the first dominos in me converting from the Reformed faith back to my childhood faith (Catholicism). I am thankful to you for this, mainly because you put into words all of the concerns I had. I had become a traditional Reformed Presbyterian, and found myself full of hatred and selfishness, and I honestly believe that if I had stayed there I would have become much worse. My journey to Catholicism has opened my eyes to what happened to my soul, but I don't think Catholicism is entirely the reason. I just think that something in the reformed water I was drinking was poison to my particular soul.

Hi Jordan. Happy to have discovered your channel today! I'm wondering if you have ever looked at the work of John Deely or Brian Kemple concerning a "revival" of Scholasticism by way of Peircean semiotics, or Semiotic Realism.

Thanks

Isn’t “metaphysical dept” Have something to do with the presence of absence?

You should have a chat with either The Byzantine Scotist or Jeremiah Bannister "The Paleocrat". God bless you two brothers 🖒📿

Is this division on justification the difference between ontology and epistemology?

As an Orthodox Christian I can sympathize with Jonathan's struggle to understand justification from the protestant point of view. I have never been able to understand it either.

Perhaps a talk with Fr. Stephen De Young of Lord of Spirits podcast would be more up your alley.

havent watched this yet but looking forward. I enjoy a lot of Jonathan's stuff but he often makes really uninformaed statements about protestantism and acts like protestantism doesnt have as much depth as EO or RC so itll be nice to see that addressed

Have this conversation again. You found your topic when you broached the topic of justification. I would love for you both to revisit this tension. As a person who was raised Lutheran but left the faith early-- and came back in my late 20s because of Pageau and Peterson and people like them, I *also* don't really know what it means to be declared Just. It seems obviously not real in a sort of day-to-day sense. It seems like an arbitrary assurance to quell doubts of hell-going. But as I re-approach faithfulness and call myself a Christian, it seems obvious that like... to the extent that there are parts of me that sin and are not In Christ, those parts of me *are destined for hell.* The parts of me that are participating In Christ have eternal life. I don't know how that shakes out. I don't really think about heaven or hell, because I don't quite know how to hold those concepts in any honesty. I want to conform more and more to the Image of Christ, because, haha, I like my body and my experience and I dont want it to be entirely obliterated. But also, I hold forth in the Resurrection. I have an Icon of it right here next to me. Its the most important image in Christian thinking to me. But I still can't tell you precisely how it'll work. Who will I be? Will it be this body or a new one? Will I recognize myself? I don't know. I don't know how helpful it is to attempt a purely literal *or* purely symbolic understanding of this doctrine. For awhile I attended an Orthodox church and I couldn't get past some of the ecclessial self understanding, but I agree with the sort of Orthodox worldview in thinkers like Pageau. Now I'm contemplating finishing my confirmation in the Lutheran Church, and stuff like this very conversation are intensely relevant to the quest for finding a Church.

Human words themselves are metaphors. The language of the Spirit is altogether different. And THAT language is the one to which we must heed.

NICE I'll skip work to watch this

I'm so confused by Jonathan's model of salvation. Can anyone interpret? What is it that brings the person who wants to surrender to Jesus into the Body, and what is it that keeps the hypocrite out of the body if it isn't the forensic element? Am I wrong to think that the sheep and goats are the proof of the forensic element? That one category is justified, and the other is lost?

7 minutes in, and it's already over practically. :D Jonathan's ecclesiological opposition to Luther is quite hard to debate. And indeed, the response is a bit of silence, and then "Hm. Interesting...".

'Jumala ompi linnamme ja vahva turva aivan, on miekkamme ja kilpemme ajalla vaaran, vaivan.'

Keep doing discussions no more debates

Check out the Glory to God for all things blog by Fr Stephen Freeman over on Ancient Faith. A quote by George Macdonald I found in the comments of one of the posts: "The Son of God suffered unto death, not that men might not suffer, but that their sufferings might be like His."

The fact there were so-called "Protestants before Protestantism" like Jan Hus shows how Luther was just reacting to preexisting problems in medieval Catholicism.

YESSSSS

Enjoying art, nature and people for their own sake as opposed to focusing on what it can do for you, or how it fits in some system or plan, is a gift, and the opposite of porn. It's a recent ability of consciousness, and goes naturally with the opposite, which is to hyper focus on how the thing satisfies this or that desire, reinforces ones views, etc. It's a subtle difference. E.g. bird watching is a totally new habit. Ancient people might watch a bird, in order to learn something, but wouldn't just enjoy the bird, while modern people can, when forgetting oneslf, just look at it for what it is, which is not porn at all.

Interesting. Even though it I can hear how you two have to adjust to each other's language, there is a good synergy in thought.

All things are possible

Our sin debt Is forgiven if we ask As long as we forgive other’s selfishness toward us Otherwise the deal is OFF Right?

Former lutheran now orthodox catechumen here with a comment on forgiveness and forensics. Forgiveness is active and continous. One cannot be "declared" forgiven and that's that. It needs constant renewal by participation in the sacraments, becoming part of the body of Christ. Participating in Christ is to be actively forgiven, when you are not, when you leave the body, sins begin to add up and you are not taking part in the divine forgiveness. That's why the forensic declaration of justification is vacuous. It is disembodied and passive. One flick of the magic wand is not enough. There is no eternal declaration of justification to point to, not even the Bible. Jesus' words are a promise to those participating in Him. For an earthly example, your American declaration of independence needs to be uphold. Without active participation in and defense of the liberties prescribed it is just paper and ink. Psychologically, just think about how often we need to remind ourselves that we have forgiven someone who hurt us not to let resentment build up again. That's not "looking back" to that time we did forgive, it's forgiving in the present. We need to actively participate in our forgiveness of others, or for that matter, of ourselves. That we are, when we take part, forgiven in Christ, so to not succumb to hopeless despair over our own fallenness. This realization is a continous, active and embodied act. These are obviously just my own scattered (potentially heretical) thoughts on the subject and not to be seen as a general orthodox position. So, eastern brothers, please correct me if I'm out of line. :)

6:24 No. Even in Luther's time there were Patristic documents indicating that Apostolic Succession was originally Presbyterial, not exclusively Episcopal. Piepkorn expanded Luther's original defense with both earlier and later documentary evidence in the mid 20th Century.

The term "faith" means different things, so of course by "faith" we are united to Christ works, but what do you mean by faith, our faith is shown in out actions, if we act like Christ then the faith shows to be a true and living one, if we don't act like him and if we embody his rightgeousness just a little or not at all then that shows our true faith or lack thereof, I think that what Jonathan is trying to point out when he talks about arbitrary is about the fact that simply stating out loud that you accept the Lord is just accidental and partial and not necesarelly substantial in your whole personhood, because you can say I accept the Lord with your mouth, yet say with everything else something different, then the phrase "I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior" means nothing more than simply pattern sounds coming out of a mouth, and that is arbitrary. Jesus saves all humanity yet we are to personally accept or reject that in every way possible with all our being, (we call that conversion, and it is an ongoing process) so in that manner we are transformed in his image and likeness, we arr healed through this process of constant conversion, and that transformation becomes an actual reality in our whole personhood and not just a statement or a theological concept accepted intelectually, you become a living Saint, you embody God's will on earth, if you down help make thy kingdom come and thy will be done then you have no faith and you are not saved no matter how many times you say that you are out loud.

"I don't even know what that means" 😆

I wonder what Jonathan would have said about certain of the sermons from Symeon the New Theologian. He says in many places that Christ offers Himself to the Father as our Replacement. It sounds quite a lot like Substitutionary Atonement/Vicarious Satisfaction.

4:57 Pageau’s comments about Luther

You two are awesome. As much as I like Sam Harris's scholarship and presentations, I can see why many think he looks like comedian Ben Stiller. Some of his ideas on religion become daffy because his arguments are totally blinkered. The guy appears to have never studied Western History before 1979.