CivilizationEx turtle shell shields

Spain has always been kind of an anomaly. It was Muslim during middle age Christian Europe, had a low population and weak economy despite being am major power and was fascist even after WW2.

Had the Rhoynar listened to Numeria, they might still be aground, and once the doom came, Volantis would have been washed into the sea.

@@MrMarinus18 Dorne doesn’t have a weak economy. One of the strongest on the contrary.

Probably because one of the descendants of the Rhoynar royals intermarried with the Martell, and it's highly implied that such warning to Targaryens are never impossible.

I wonder if they actually had all these dragons, why didn't they conquere Westeros or the rest of the world then?

Sir if you do research on World of Ice and Fire you will learn that before the Doom happen the 48 Nobles families of Valyrains were prepare to take Westores by force. (But the Doom happen)

G-Rex Saurus Well we saw what happened in Westeros when there were a lot of dragonriders around (Dance Of The Dragons Civil War). That war was catastrophic and there were only like 30 dragons around at the time. Based off the rhoynar war we know the Valyrians had Atleast 300 dragons which would make the empire super unstable with civil wars constantly happening.

No they don't say that, I read AWOIAF. Where do they mention that? (To Sophia)

Possibly, but I'd imagine someone would go Julius Caesar on Westeros with their dragons, so much loot to take and so much time, seems weird they didn't.

guess what

They were children when they left Rhoynar, but by the time they got to Dorne many of them were grown men and women.

CivilizationEx First wow thanks for replying that quick and second I don't think they would be able to fight well compared to the dornish. They have probably been underfeed and not well trained

Probably, but there were a lot of them, and they didn't fight alone, they allied with a number of houses in Dorne marrying into their families and created a great alliance, then it took several years of fighting a civil war until they finally won.

Do you know where i can learn more about essos and their people?

Ruben Avalos The rhoynar are ancient Egyptians. the andals in Dorme only influenced Eastern Dorne while by example western Dorne was inhabited by the first men who by example the yronwoods still called themselves High Kings of Dorne

I have seen this map that tries to make sense of the ethnical composition of Dorne, obviously there is quite the amount of mixed people, but this is what the general composition is. i.imgur.com/4GstvBt.png

G-Rex Saurus The dornish are divided in three groups, The stone dornish which live in west Dorne which are mainly first men and andals, then you have the sand dornish which are a mix of rhoynish and andals and the salt dornish which are mainly rhoynish, but yes, the map is mostly accurate

The Sand dornish are mostly Andals, as the Andals appear to be the first there. The Salt Dornish are mixed between Rhoynish and Andals, I'd say the majority depends on the exact region(The Western you go and the closer the Greenblood you are the more Rhoynish you become) and then you also have the unspoken 4th group of the orphans of the Greenblood that are probably full Rhoynar or mostly so at least.

G-Rex Saurus The Salt Dornish in my opinion are a mix between rhoynish and andals, but the rhoynar are mostly the majority

There was complete anarchy and the dothraki burning everything in sight. Also by the time of the doom the Rhoynar were well established in Dorne.

@@MrMarinus18 In the video the narrator said that a group of Rhoyanr refused to fully integrate with the dornish and lived on the river Green Blood on rafts preserving their ancient culture and worship of mother Rhoyn.

@@vladtheimpaler9577 You said river Rhoyn and technically it remained unchanged. Though I am guessing you are meaning to say river Rhoynar. But that is a good point, I would see them getting to Essos and then getting either massacred by the Dothraki or just be kicked out by one of the free cities.

marinus18 you mean river Rhoyne, and the orphans of the Greenblood who still worship Rhoynish gods live in Dorne, not on the Rhoyne.

The top part is now under control of Norvos and Qohor, the middle part is now a colony for people with greyscale (an infectious disease) and the lower part is under control of Volantis. Although I suppose they could make a small colony on the "little rhoyne" (a tributary stream of the Rhoyne).

Yes, I will, it is the next series I plan to start, possibly by the end of this year, but definetly before the show comes out.

yessss

Lorath and Norvos already existed over a thousand years BC, since they were involved in the Valyrian Scouring of Lorath. And Qohor was settled by Religious settlers, same as the others, so I am pretty sure they existed before the fall of the Rhoynar.

But do we know when the scouring happened? Because in the timeline of the Andal invasion the 2 events(the end of the Rhoynar and the scouring) are both important for the migration, so it seems to me the 2 should either happen around the same time period or the scouring happened afterwards when only the Northern Andals remained. I'll check WOIAF to see in what temporal order things are put.

Lorath was founded as a Valyrian settlement in 1436 BC, so the scouring happened before that.

Oh we even have a precise date for that, I guess then the Andal migration happened way before the Valyrian expanded northwards. The logistics of the Valyrian colonizing Norvos is quite weird, the city is surrounded on 3 sides by mountains and south it has the Rhoynar.

Maybe that's why conflict arose. The Valyrians were building those cities and really encroaching on them.

A book called The World of Ice and Fire

@@CivilizationEx Thanks for reply. I haven't read Asoiaf yet. I didn't knew there is so history in the book, i thought it was written as a pov of characters.

@@PDBisht It is not part of the novel series, the main books are in POV. The World of Ice and fire is an extra history book that accompanies the series but is not a part of it.

Essos is enormous with lots of different peoples and cultures that settled far away from each other and developed differently.

The river Royne is the farthest east any settlers of Westeros are from. Andolos is right next to the narrow sea and the first men are still from west of Volantis sense they crossed the land bridge into Dorne originally

G-Rex Saurus By concept the allowance of fair inheritance does constitutes a society that is more egalitarian. The princesses wouldn’t be obligated to promote a patriarchal society, they are likely to embrace women in roles of power. It’s not like say the English, whereas certain circumstances allowed for Queens to take the throne as sovereign, it was due to not having a male heir. While having a woman in power, England would remain a patriarchal society, as the nobility would still be very influential in the kingdom or empire. Even in the Age of Absolutism, had Queen Elizabeth moved for change in traditions of power and inheritance, there would be uproar and dissent by the noble class, male heirs who’d have much to lose by allowing share of influence and status to women. It was in interest to maintain the status quo.

"fair inheritance" there is nothing fair about some people having inherent political power over others by virtue of their birth anyway. >The princesses wouldn’t be obligated to promote a patriarchal society, they are likely to embrace women in roles of power. Yeah this is why the majority of Rhoynish men get killed in the wars while women don't, so fair. People don't have gender-based consciousness, it's not obvious that princesses would be interested in being pre-modern feminist advocates, they are still nobles and above other people, they are going to cling to that privilege rather than advocate for something that would not make sense in their societies anyway. >England would remain a patriarchal society Patriarch in pre-modern societies tends to happen organically because labour is based a lot on human muscles, which men tend to have, same goes with martial power. The Rhoynar are no different, as you can see given it was the men who fought and died. >male heirs who’d have much to lose by allowing share of influence and status to women. There was no gender consciousness in such times, it was simply because it was not part of their culture and it was not because some sort of gendered self-interest but because it was just the end point of millennia of societal norms based ultimately on biological differences, even if the end result might not be ultimately based on biology. This is why there were relatively few societies with absolute primogeniture, it's not simply short term cultural norms.

G-Rex Saurus I don’t know why you’re coming out so complicated with this. Fact is the Rhoynar are more free to giving women agency, plain and simple. They have industry, and can wed at will. Of course the nobles do what they want, your modern sensibility has no place in a medieval society structured on monarchies and feudalism. And the women of Dorne, be they Rhoynar are warriors. They live and die by the blade as much as the men. Look at most of civilization, it has been patriarchal due to men’s natural dominance. As it is by nature. Building civilizations dominated by men the power hierarchies were designed to maintain the power of the men. It’s like that in many ecosystems. Hence the practice of primogeniture favoring males. It’s just truth nobles would have a problem if they abruptly had to share power with women of the same class. I’m not bringing modern politics into this fictional world. Dorne is not modern feminist in the sense, it is just the most socially tolerant place in Westeros, where women are of equal status to men, and fringe groups are accepted.

> They live and die by the blade as much as the men. No they clearly don't, otherwise Nymeria wouldn't have gone with just old, young and women. What are you saying here is evidently false and for good reasons that's not the case. >the power hierarchies were designed to maintain the power of the men. Not exactly, they were designed to make the most sense to their societies, and societies in which the men who fight, risk their lives and in which their labour is ultimately the most valuable, it makes sense that the political position would go to them most of the times. > It’s just truth nobles would have a problem if they abruptly had to share power with women of the same class. Not really, noble men had to or did pragmatically share power with their wives, only different kinds of power. In most societies, in which inheritance was often contested, you would bet that women wouldn't win against men most of the times(not in societies in which inheritance is contested just a couple times, like Westeros) >I’m not bringing modern politics into this fictional world. Dorne is not feminist, it is just the most socially tolerant place in Westeros. Tolerant only in a very narrow sense, the most tolerant place would be a place in which the social class system is the weakest, because this small difference in inheritance laws at the top level means little ultimately.

G-Rex Saurus again you’re bringing democratic values to world that doesn’t know it. I wouldn’t compare them to the same liberal standard. Frankly when I say men built societies where they are in power, I mean the same thing. They are dominant, therefore patriarchy. But certain roles don’t need physical prowess, such as politics. Doing the most laborious actions is not necessarily a reason to relegate women to a second tier place socially in roles that could have been avoided. It’s well understood to me that men did much work for the formation of states, but women’s roles aren’t exactly not important. Clearly by your modern standards not giving free agency to women was only a hindrance to any society. They could provide half the industry besides weaving. Disenfranchisement of half a population is likely a hindrance. But yes I understand that by nature men dominating, organically they were empowered to a greater role than women. And it’s not a moral judgement either, it’s understood it was a natural development. As for the women that fled with Nymeria, who knows if certain city-states differed from each other. Nymeria herself was a warrior, and they obviously had some warriors among the 10,000. In the History of Ice and Fire book I see clear depictions of Rhoynar women in armor. I’ll have to review that more. It’s not impossible that most weren’t warriors. And now that I have reviewed you are right. While warrior women were not uncommon to the Rhoynar it wasn’t as prominent as I thought. Nymeria was more of a general than a fighter as well .