🧙 A Targaryen murder mystery on Dragonstone | Fire and Blood
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4 жыл бұрынLong ago on Dragonstone, Androw Farman staged a Westeros horror story on Dragonstone and planned to make his wife Queen Rhaena Targaryen his seventh victim. But these actions seemed out of the unimpressive Androw's abilities to pull off alone. Who in the realm wanted a Targaryen Queen and her court gone from their home of Dragonstone and had resources and will to make it happen? Puzzle out the mystery of the horror story on Dragonstone with JoeMagician.
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@mcfarland1981 4 жыл бұрын
I loved the video! I always thought it odd how Andrews story ended, not that he grew so bitter, but how capable he suddenly turned. Only thing I am not sure about is that almost all these ideas are made for political reasons. Sometimes it is personal. But Jahayres personality seamed to have hardened with age, you see that in the way he treated his younger children and how he increasingly got into arguments with his wife and seemingly distanced himself from her. Thanks for making me reconsider my views
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
One thing I think about him is his name. conciliator. That's not the kind, the good, the great, etc. It just means he solves problems. Sometimes problems he creates or makes worse. Like for instance, his relationship with Rhaena is probably what informed his strained his relationships with women in his life and his dedication to keeping them out of power. That when he was young, he felt emasculated by Rhaena and had to work against her to keep his throne and transferred that to his children who resembled her personality.
@alisonsheep 4 жыл бұрын
He was straight up vicious with Saera. If events occurred as is written, he didn't seem to have any affection for her. He ruled for 55 years, 55 years of having to make hard decisions knowing that many of his choices lead to the deaths of those he was sworn to protect as King. He and Alysanne went through so much grief, so many of their children died or suffered. And the two most powerful people in the country could do nothing about it. Daenerys dying from the Shivers in particular seemed to change their demeanour, grief haunting their steps. We see in the main story many characters that suffer through incredible hardships and as a result harden their hearts, and subsequently act more cruelly or coldly, with less empathy. Thinking about Arya (went on to murder peeps), Jamie (went on to murder a fuckton of peeps), and Septon Meribald's speech on the hundreds of broken men who would not flinch from even the most vile acts. They dehumanize those they hurt, and are in turn dehumanized themselves. Trauma is such a pervasive and insidious factor that injects itself into every facet of George's writing. Characters lack the ability to identify trauma, so it is never outright stated, so it manifests through their actions. I wouldn't put it past Jaehaerys to be involved in a plot to rid himself and his court of a group of people who have threatened his reign, caused thousands of deaths although indirectly, turned powerful lords against him, and has now forced him to wage war against powerful enemies. Kill 6 or 7 people to prevent new provocations, destruction, and protect potentially thousands of lives from the probable fallout of quarrels said group would incite.
@paolabruno4437 3 жыл бұрын
@@alisonsheep Yes, also it's the same maquiavellian(? I don't know how to write that, sorry) puzzle that GRRM asks us all over the series. What's the life of a boy against a kingdom? It's everything.
@neuralmute Жыл бұрын
@@paolabruno4437 Which leads us to the next question: what do our answers to these questions say about us all?
@lillypharaoh5945 11 ай бұрын
@@JoeMagicianjehaerys wasn't dedicated to keeping women out of power he was literally the only king in the history of Westeros to give them any kind of power or help them out, but such is life if you give someone 10000$ they'll cuss you out for not giving them your house and clothes too.
@KnowledgeBorn120 Жыл бұрын
Those dragon eggs she stole are probably the ones that ended up being gifts to Daenerys! I'd bet on it
@nikkishears6402 2 ай бұрын
They were in the private menagerie of the Sea Lord of Bravos, and later sold to Mopatis, the man who housed Dani and Viserys, when they fled Dragonstone.
@theletterm5425 4 жыл бұрын
When you first brought up Jaeherys as a possible culprit I thought there was no way that wise old King Jaeherys would do something so despicable, but by the end I'm almost convinced that it was in fact done on his orders. If nothing else he is at least a very strong candidate. Well done!
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
*checks box* mission accomplished. Glad you enjoyed!
@kevinvest9693 Жыл бұрын
it would be so GRRM for jaeherys to be a murdering scumbag based on how everyone loves him.
@kevinvest9693 Жыл бұрын
@Angeal zeal yeah but the honorable Jaehaerys planning to kill his own sister by poison that littlefinger levels of scummy. Plus in fire and blood alot of people who had beef with Jaehaerys happens to drop dead mysteriously. I'm pretty convinced that if everyone loves and respects a historical figure there probably a monster. Look at raehgar's actions and why people think he's so great.
@poppyonline4034 Жыл бұрын
@Angeal zeal wasn’t she just doing her thing on Dragonstone by that time? She calmed down.
@dww6 Жыл бұрын
The histories present him as a wise old king. He still did some pretty stupid stuff though.
@BrokaCola Жыл бұрын
Damn, her reading of that Lysa passage was extremely well done.
@JoeMagician Жыл бұрын
Maddie is great
@BrokaCola Жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician No kidding, this is going on my best content on YT playlist.
@brandonb6005 Жыл бұрын
I think you missed one particular candidate… Elissa Farman. She was resentful of being stuck on Dragonstone after having asked Rhaena to leave and being repeatedly denied. She and Androw were extremely close. She was an experienced sailor and had in fact gone to Braavos after fleeing Dragonstone. Someone that worldly and always wanting to explore elsewhere would have been researching other parts of the world such as the Free Cities if their long term plan was to build a fleet there then travel the world. Selling the dragon eggs to the Sea Lord of Braavos would have given her funds to pay for the Tears of Lys in addition to funding her voyage. The limits here would have been opportunity, as no one officially knew where she was or what she was doing, but she could have found a way to pass instructions and the Tears through a cut-out to Androw. If it went through multiple cut-outs, one could be Princess Aerea, who had wanted to go with Elissa on her journey but was forbidden by her mother. It would also potentially explain why she subsequently claimed Balereon and disappeared, as yet another opportunity to leave Dragonstone had fallen through. Yes, Elissa and Rhaena were likely lovers and very close, but Elissa had long term plans that Rhaena was forbidding her from going through with simply because she thought she couldn’t bear to be without her. The main point against this is that Elissa was in hiding while constructing Sun Chaser and that sending someone to kill Rhaena would have left loose ends that could have been tied back to her. And they were already pissed at her over the eggs… being complicit in murders that threatened members of the royal family would have gotten Jaeharys to step up Rago Draz’ efforts to find her.
@Argos-xb8ek 3 жыл бұрын
Androw truly was a perfect fall guy it was the perfect close book case a jaded psuedo lover who was being mocked and shamed by the whole village along with his sister being a treacherous thief that left her own brother to face the consequences of her actions.
@serdownofhousebad1127 7 ай бұрын
That's why you don't bully and publicly mock people for years, Androw is an understandable villain who who lived under a roof of horrible people hoping to overthrow the crown.
@childofpersia1213 4 жыл бұрын
Androw reminds me of LittleFinger in his lack of “typically male” interests and skills. He “plays up”how non-threatening he is to deceive those he wants to take vengeance on
@rodrickhatton8636 4 жыл бұрын
YES!
@made-line7627 4 жыл бұрын
Great point
@arianewinter4266 3 жыл бұрын
My first thought was, that this is usualy a feminin revange plot or typ of crime
@macnsteez3938 3 жыл бұрын
I think Baelish is far cleverer, with Androw it sounded like he had nothing going on in his head beyond the most base desires. You are right about both having to rely less on masculine qualities to survive though.
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
but the thing his, he apparently lacks any kind of interests and skills, not just typicly male ones.
@jeffgustafson4552 4 жыл бұрын
This sweet summer child is happy
@bryantaylor9874 3 жыл бұрын
U miss the obvious suspect, Elissa Farnam herself. Whatever love between her and Rheana was long gone, from Elissa's pov at least, and she knew Rheana would hunt her to the ends of the earth. Elissa never hesitated to use and abuse her brother, and if she did harbor a secret guilt then what better way to alleviate it than to facilitate his revenge. If you're Elissa what better way to ensure your getaway than to murder the one person guaranteed to chase you.
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
How would she have done it, where did she get the poison from, how did she avoid detection when everyone was on the hunt for her?!
@lillypharaoh5945 11 ай бұрын
@@arianewinter4266she had an entire crew of sells words and cutthroats, can't be hard to achieve especially if she stumbled across a faceless man.
@carastone3473 10 ай бұрын
@@lillypharaoh5945one doesn’t just ‘stumble across a faceless man.’ 😂
@lillypharaoh5945 10 ай бұрын
@@carastone3473 not literally no
@HolasoyMai 3 жыл бұрын
This video got me thinking that Elissa Farman stealing eggs that might have already been *petrified* was part of Jaehaerys' plan to humiliate Rhaena, and also those eggs wouldn't have been a threat to his reign.
@JoeMagician 3 жыл бұрын
Oh interesting, I like that take too
@TheBHNetwork Жыл бұрын
Really doesn't make any sense. How would removing three unborn dragons change the fact that Dragonstone is home to like 5+ living breathing dragons that Rhaena could still use to challenge his reign? Not only that but half of Joe's reasoning as to why Jaehaerys would be driven to kinslaying (completely out of character by all accounts of Jae we've gotten) is because Rhaena lost those eggs to begin with, so the logic becomes circular if we accept that Jae also ordered the eggs to be stolen. Feel like ppl are giving Joe's Jaehaerys theory a lot more credit than it deserves. It doesn't really hold up under any amount of scrutiny.
@arianewinter4266 3 жыл бұрын
I feel almost bad for Lysa with how good this reading is, it is like perfect
@Regenmacher175 Жыл бұрын
I'd say Androw's brother, Franklyn Farman, is more likely than first appearances would indicate. He was Lord of Fair Isle, thus likely had more connections than his brother and more means to purchase the poison, and would have had the time and opportunity to communicate with Androw to a) convince him to commit tehse crimes and b) send him the poison. He also had a bone to pick with Rhaena specifically. To be able to convince someone like Androw to commit these crimes it would have had to have been people he trusted enough to convince him and help him, which his brother could have been.
@HEMANTGOSAVI007 3 жыл бұрын
This content is SO underrated especially in an age where very silly clickbaity videos get millions of likes. It's like a mini novel within a very minor sub plot. So many hours would've gone into putting all of this together. This is absolutely incredible work!
@mikedeck8381 4 жыл бұрын
I agree that there some very funny things going on at Dragonstone while Rhaenea was there. I think your close but off the mark. Most likely it was actually Allysane who might have been behind it. On a personal level she loved Dragonstone most of all and was likely not happy with what her sister was doing with the place. I think she aided Ellissa in stealing the dragon eggs. Remember that the deal Septon Barth reach with Bravos fixed the financial crisis once and for all. In other words the Iron Thorne benefited most from the theft. Ellissa got a ship, one ship and the money to finance her expedition with help from the Redwynes. The question is who'd be more willing to trade those eggs for money to fix the countries finances, Allysane or Jahaerys? Allysane would in my mind if she had assurances the eggs would not be hatched. Its telling that the eggs went through Driftmark and then Pentos before getting to Bravos. I also feel that Jahaerys and Rhaenea almost got along, it was Alysanne who fought with her. I disagree that Rhaenea was ever a target for the poison. You fail to mention it but the younger Maester who was stabbed in the back, not killed in a struggle but stabbed in the back, was the likely supplier of the poison. It comes down to whether you think it was Jahaerys or Alysanne. My ideas about this are too long to really get into but I think it was Alysanne. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Targaryeans likely had a glass candle at this point. Its hard to believe they would've been dependent on informers for all their information all though the existence of such a thing is never mentioned in the book.
@kristi4113 Жыл бұрын
Franklin Farman, he hated her the MOST. Rhaena took advantage of his little brother and wouldn’t leave his little sister alone. Frankie could have had secret correspondence with Androw because no one was paying attention to what Andy was doing, anyways.
@aaronzegas5270 Жыл бұрын
Someone literate would have had to have been a go-between, because I believe Andrew was illiterate.
@kyidyl 4 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed this. I liked the style you did it, the murder mystery thing. Good job.
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
It was a new thing, glad to hear you enjoyed it! Playing with the music was the most fun part, trying to match the mood of the quotes and what I was saying.
@kyidyl 4 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician Yeah it definitely was effective and I didn't even realize how effective until you mentioned that you'd done it. Which, imo, means you've done a really good job with it. Plus I know that HoW has done analysis and stuff of the Targaryen book, but I havent seen a ton of vids getting into the minutia of it like this. Glad you're back btw. :)
@KaritKtana 2 жыл бұрын
Such a well constructed video!! I never considered this as a whodunit, but, MAN, _NOTHING_ can be taken for granted in Fire & Blood! Chapeau 👏
@theprimo100 Жыл бұрын
GRRM says a good man doesn't always make a good king. Jahaerys is considered one of, if not the best king. What does that say about him as a person?
@serdownofhousebad1127 7 ай бұрын
Jahaerys was very much a complicated ruler within asoiaf, many reforms and constructions were heavily influenced and argued in favor by his Queen who was well loved by common folk. She abolished the law of the first night after traveling the North and meeting women who were assaulted by their lords on their wedding night while Jahaerys argued against the idea, she paid for a new castle for the nights watch out of her own pocket after staying with them eating the food they were served daily and earned the respect of the brothers in black, she even made sure the small council committed to replacing the dirty waters of kings landing after small folk grew more sick from Jahaerys sewer systems seeping into the already poor water supplies. Jahaerys wouldn't have been so well loved and revered if it weren't for Alysanne's support and contributions to the commoners of Westeros.
@Isuream6331 5 ай бұрын
@@serdownofhousebad1127 Yep. The best rulers listen to the advice of others, I still believe Jaeherys was a good ruler(and person) on his own, but the sheer heights his rule reached was a team effort. The only times they ever clashed on a problem was when they had to confront the ugly fact that their society is built around the suppression of women…
@alanpennie8013 4 жыл бұрын
Channelling your inner Preston Jacobs here. If Androw was a catspaw his loyalty to whoever used him was remarkable. Glad we eventually got this video. What was the problem?
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
Or the official record didn't record if he named anyone *puts on tinfoil hat* No idea, youtube never told me why it was held up. They just approved it.
@alanpennie8013 4 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician Capricious, they are.
@akhost3929 Жыл бұрын
@@alanpennie8013 0
@nadjapavlovic5953 3 жыл бұрын
I always thought from the first time that I've read the books that it was Jahaerys, but now that you've suggested it , Rogar Baratheon is also a good option. But I still think that based on Androw wanting to go to King's Landing when Rogar wasn't there it is more probably Jahaerys
@MrSilvUr 3 жыл бұрын
I think the idea is that Androw was underestimated, even by history. So the fact that these murders indicate a capability at odds with the picture history paints of him reflects more of the failure of history than a conspiracy. It is real curious where he got the poison, though. Maybe he made it himself; being illiterate doesn't _necessarily_ mean he wouldn't have the knowledge...
@williamst.romain7393 4 жыл бұрын
I have always felt that Androw's failures were the result of laziness, not stupidity. He wasn't good at anything because he couldn't be bothered to try. I think he was quite capable of dreaming up the whole plot. But you are right that he would likely have needed help in acquiring the Tears to carry it out. What is most likely is that Androw, using the ex-commander of the garrison, got in touch with Draaz and Massey and they, out a misguided belief they were helping, assisted him. I doubt very much that Jaehaerys would murder his own sister, no matter what a pain in the neck she was. He had ample opportunities to have her disposed of. Not to mention Draaz, who could have done it far more effectively.
@arianewinter4266 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, bis problem was lazyness, but the mind only developes when used. Without reading and contacts he would not have knowen about the poison to beginn with.
@aaronzegas5270 Жыл бұрын
I think he was used by people who felt they were doing Jaeherys' bidding. Might have been a "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest" sort of situation.
@Isuream6331 5 ай бұрын
@@aaronzegas5270 Draaz certainly seems like the sort of guy to think he was helping the king by murdering his sister
@theelectricprince8231 4 ай бұрын
You felt but isn't the case. You felt that way because you had no empathy for Androw. Androw was a mentally disabled man who was likely abused and used maliciously throughout his life, you calling him lazy and dismissing any disadvantage he had makes it easy for you to justify your lack of empathy. Don't make up crap, just admit that you lack empathy.
@Mr.PepeSilvia 4 жыл бұрын
Definitely one of my favorite storylines in Fire And Blood. Thank you!
@benandrovich112 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you! Great video! I read your post about being demonetized, that’s so bizarre! I don’t see why this would be, it’s so informative and awesome! Great work Matt.
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
just the little detail that he says "save my son" not child is oh so telling
@JoeMagician Жыл бұрын
I would not have disagreed with Rhaena feeding him to her dragon
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician me neither, one could have argued, that she was overreacting, reading sexism, where it was not intended, but that he did not even consider it could have been a girl . . . . it just totaly proved her point and I get why Rhaena was so bitter and angry all the time. I feel like she gets a worse wrap then she deserves. The describtion of her as a child read like an introvert, not a mean kid, there was no allusion to her abusing the kids she was supposed to play with, she just prefered books and tend to hide from strangers. When she for her castle, she pointed out she needed her own space, where she could ensure the safety of those she chose. She sure as hell fucked up later on, by choseing a man she can treat the same way she felt treated, by messing up her kids upbringing, by antagonising a lot of people needlessly and all . . . . but she is not the mean bitch incarnet, a lot of her anger is valid and quite some male characters get a pass for similar behavior (the hound for example)
@shadow_realm47 Жыл бұрын
@@arianewinter4266 but the hound is cool af tho, dude got his face burnt😭
@taylorgayhart9497 Жыл бұрын
@@arianewinter4266 what I like about his story is he was treated exactly the way all lords treat their wives in this story. He was married off to a powerful family, but he had no power in his own home, nor did he have control over his wife, and he hated it. He learned first hand exactly how most ladies in Westeros feel, and it was so bad it pushed him to murder. Basically Grr Martin is pointing out how fragile the male ego is! Lol
@Ch50304 Жыл бұрын
@@taylorgayhart9497 Fragile? When Cersei was mistreated, she had ex with her brother, and produced bastards, if anything women are fragile. Also, he was emotionally abused.
@xajaso 4 жыл бұрын
This is EXCELLENT. Exactly the ASOIAF content we need! Thanks for the hard work. A++
@louisroy4911 Жыл бұрын
Man, I want this story next if HotD does indeed become more of an anthology series, even more so than the conquest.
@jlshel42 4 жыл бұрын
This is no disease, this is....MMMMM-URDER! -quote I wish someone would've said in the book
@leahlemieux 4 жыл бұрын
what a great journey to be taken on! thank you Jo!
@brittanybarker95 4 жыл бұрын
I love this kind of content I hope you keep making these kind of vids!
@Baratheon. 4 жыл бұрын
great video btw, the narration, sound & background music is amazing. loved it
@tylercruse2402 3 жыл бұрын
Martin knows that history doesn't actually repeat itself. However it frequently rhymes!
@JaiAuthenti 2 жыл бұрын
I never realized the high tension between Jaehaerys and Rhe, sheesh
@Baratheon. 4 жыл бұрын
forgive me on the timeline, been a while since i read the books, so i might be mis-remembering the order of event chronologically. Rogar is the only 1 i don't buy into having been the backer behind Androw & the poisoning . at the time of his wifes death, who he had cheated on (iirc) numerous times, gotten his wife with child after being told by Maesters that she couldn't bare anymore children. not long before that he had even betrayed, got caught out, then been forgiven and welcomed back into the Kings peace for his plots, scheming & subterfuge. after that i feel like he turned a new leaf. i reckon he was cowed & significantly humbled by this point and let it pass as her mother had just died, + this she is a literal dragon queen. I seem to remember seeing Rogar in a positive light after all was said & done,, and liked his character despite his shortcomings
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
That's about right. My thought on Rogar's motive is that he really hates Rhaena and has a streak of mysoginy. When she threatened to Harrenhal him in his own hall, that would've been something he couldn't ignore and wanted revenge. Also the closeness in the text is interesting to me. We hear about that right before Androw's murders show up. Authors putting information like that back to back should make your eyebrows rise, that it was intentional Grrm wanted us to know Rhaena made an enemy of Rogar then Androw happens.
@AJHyoton Жыл бұрын
There was a bedding ceremony, attended by the Farman's liege lord Lannister, so yes. The marriage was consummated. The problem was that it was more or less a sham marriage. She was fond of Androw, but in love with his sister, very passionately at that. Odds are good she was like Aegon was with his sisters, 10 to 1, and Androw, that poor, simple fool did not know any better, but when Elissa deserted both him and Rhaena and Rhaena turned sour on him he went ahead and did what he had to did, cuz they had no kid
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
Where did you get from, that there was a bedding ceremony?
@AJHyoton Жыл бұрын
@@arianewinter4266 Fire and Blood, page 30
@dantestanley4927 5 ай бұрын
Great video! I never thought about their relationship in that way. Interesting the situations that come up in terms of power and hard things that might need to be done.
@TheAstroWitchLux 4 жыл бұрын
I think it was Alysanne!
@yaboyed5779 4 жыл бұрын
Slut O'Crat exactly she’s just watching everything happen. Plus think about it, she held their mum’s hand through the “birth” of their youngest sister and Rhaena couldn’t even look at it but just blamed Rogar, which made Jaehaerys and everyone look bad
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
Why?
@theelectricprince8231 4 ай бұрын
No. She can't be a suspect, she is a woman and women are moral beacons of light.
@Reuter951 3 жыл бұрын
This would be an amazing movie or mini series
@BlackstreetBoys2Men Жыл бұрын
Quality video here. As someone who has read fire and blood more than once there is still so much I didn’t realize until this.
@cityofmagic4370 Жыл бұрын
This era would make great tv. Awesome video!
@26artgirl 4 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed your analysis and can almost hear you smiling as you narrate it. You made me think about re-reading F&B which I did not like much. Great mind!
@UAPReportingCenter Жыл бұрын
Amazing work!
@CompeAnansi1218 11 ай бұрын
This is the first ASOIAF theory I've seen where all the options you presented are equally valid. Top tier video.
@Matdif 4 жыл бұрын
Very good analysis.
@ruffgirl1776 Жыл бұрын
Ok, I’m totally loving your videos and history
@kylebarker9932 3 жыл бұрын
"Merrett Frey wrote a mathematics textbook." HAHA
@applewagon253 4 жыл бұрын
Great work!
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
Aww shucks
@brynfindlay-dykes350 Жыл бұрын
I finished this chapter earlier today, didn't think about it too much until I stumbled on this vid! Jaeherys was one of my suspects, but I thought no he wouldn't right? But you've convinced me! It's also awfully convenient that Jaeherys had ships at the ready and ordered a quarantine and wanting the 'sickness' to fully play out instead of wanting to get his own family off the island
@KingOfWinter 4 жыл бұрын
Love the video!! All your videos are awesome imo.... Part of me always felt bad for Androw yeah he deserved what he got at the end but if he wouldn’t have killed anyone then his story would’ve been so sad. He did not deserve to be treated the way he was by the queen and her friends. I wonder if at first he knew his marriage was a scam or if he was tricked into marrying her thinking she loved him and his sister or something
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
It appears that Elissa was the glue holding the two of them together, and when she left neither Androw nor Rhaena had the emotional support systems to deal with that loss. So they turned on each other, although with Androw someone enabled his anger and put poison in his hands. It's a rough situation for all involved, and largely caused by the inheritance laws of Westeros. I don't think Androw was tricked, but rather he was hopeful that over time his feelings would be reciprocated despite Rhaena making it clear they weren't and it was a sham marriage.
@dominiqueodom3099 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician Rhaena's role In this relationship falling apart is larger and rather cruel on her part.
@aaronzegas5270 Жыл бұрын
I wonder if Androw knew he was a merkin and didn't care, because he liked the power and privileges that came with being married to the most powerful woman in the Seven Kingdoms. Or maybe he was just a sad sack and a mediocre fool who really thought the marriage was real and was just constantly humiliated.
@FishBoneD14 4 жыл бұрын
I immediately thought Lord Lannister.
@johnknaggs2508 4 жыл бұрын
As always great content from Joe Magician. Your videos are top of the line for deep thought and inquiry. Research and referenced passage flawless. Keep you the great work as always looking forward to seeing your next project. Thanks for the amazing content.
@fightscrimewhilesleeping4024 3 жыл бұрын
I always appreciate any take that points out how biased the accounts of Jahayres (and Alyssane, for that matter are in the histories). Not that I'd paint them as 100% villains or anything either, it's just that whenever I see the accounts we get of them as so perfectly good and wise presented as unvarnished, uncomplicated truth, well, it just kinda bugs me a little, since it's pretty clear the narratives we get presented in the histories are only one side of the story.
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
There is no such thing as a "good king" you can be good or efficient but never both in a position like that
@SaveUsMarku Жыл бұрын
Awesome video Joe. Compiled useful and interesting information for a book that is hard to digest for a lot of people. Really enjoyed this video mate.
@JoeMagician Жыл бұрын
Much appreciated!
@courtneymazza3853 4 жыл бұрын
You make me grateful for this time to catch up and focus on things and people I love instead of feeling stuck and scared at home. Corona can kiss my....
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
Nothing like a good murder story in the end times!
@samanthamorris5340 4 жыл бұрын
Great video!
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
Too kind :)
@suejones2815 Жыл бұрын
Great in depth theory
@nottellingyou14 Жыл бұрын
I think he pulled it off alone. He didn’t have to come up with the plan himself, he just had to overhear it one day. Then he plots, whether it’s gathering money slowly or finding where he can steal the tears on Dragonstone. Finally, one day he has enough OR he’s had enough, and he spikes their drinks knowing no one would think twice about him serving wine.
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
Where and how stole he the poison when it was not on dragons tone and who would have conviniently talked about the poison plot for him to overhear?
@samuelbattershell3413 3 жыл бұрын
My previous comment was in jest, but what if The Lions of CastlyRock, the Storm Lord and The King were all part of it, the Lannisters provided the gold for the poison, Jarheys actually gets the poison (indirectly) and Rogar gets the poison and the know how to Andro... I will grant it's a lot of moving parts, but perhaps they all played a hand in the murders on Dragonstone
@ske_kt2048 Жыл бұрын
Awesome video! I'm betting on Jahayres, especially since self-destruction seems to be a theme with house Targaryen.
@lanestapp2 4 жыл бұрын
Wouldn't her fight with Rogar make it more necessary for her to be around for Jahaerys? She constantly shows him in a better light, makes his wife a better claimant than Rhaena, and she is easily dismissed considering that everyone including her husband disliked her. Jahaerys should have been bummed if she had died because it would have brought critics from her to him. Plus he seems too smart to make a plan that would even have a chance at failing. Which being overly vindictive would have been.
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
The amount of risk in using Androw Farman as an assassin is definitely an issue with it. Although I doubt anyone expected Androw to get so carried away and kill her court as well. They would've wanted him to kill the maester to ensure he can't save Rhaena then Rhaena as well. The quarantine could have been a measure to make sure no one went there to stop Androw before he got to Rhaena. But by the same token, Littlefinger took a big risk too using Lysa to kill Jon Arryn rather than a faceless man or another professional. Perhaps money was an issue in hiring someone, and they figured Androw could pull off dropping poison into two goblets not the six he did.
@lanestapp2 4 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician I mean if he was best buddies with the guard then wouldn't have been better to use him than the clearly weird unstable guy who had a weird grudge against her? But using Lyssa makes much more sense to me, she was totally in for whatever little finger wanted. Farman was a wildcard. Jahaerys just seemed much cleaner than having such big deal in the hands of someone he absolutely shouldn't have trusted.
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
@@lanestapp2 that's one reason I like rogar for it. His other plots were similarly poorly thought out or relied on a lot of risk. Coryanne Wylde, trying to kidnap Rhaella and Aerea. He would think this was a good plan.
@lanestapp2 4 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician He was clever enough that he might be successful, but not clever enough for it to work. Plus he always left a trail of obvious rumors.
@alanpennie8013 4 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician For a supposed master mind Littlefinger took some extraordinary risks at the beginning of the story. Lucky he had GRRM looking out for him.
@ericacm 4 жыл бұрын
Wow! This was great! I’m going to have to re-read F&B.
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
It's a good time, Kinda confusing on the first read through but once you get a handle on reading through the bias it's a lot more fun and interesting.
@Ladybug-no9sc 4 жыл бұрын
That was awesome
@EvanSol919 3 жыл бұрын
Even if it wasn't Jaehaerys himself who ordered the poisonings, someone on his council might have taken matters into their own hands.
@JoeMagician 3 жыл бұрын
"Won't someone rid me of this troublesome sister?"
@EvanSol919 3 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician Henry II
@phillips9652 Жыл бұрын
Yesss finally a good story teller❤ 👍
@jodysheridan604 3 жыл бұрын
Great theory!
@coldhands2802 3 жыл бұрын
Just ordered fire and blood and should be here any day now so I'll save this video for later. No spoilers.
@samuelbattershell3413 3 жыл бұрын
You're wrong, it was Starks of Winterfell, the Kings of Winter, sounding the alarm that 'Winter is Coming'.... I jest
@yaboyed5779 4 жыл бұрын
Please more Rhaena Targaryen 😍😍😍
@nottellingyou14 Жыл бұрын
Is this how the 3 eggs ended up with Ilyrio in Essos?
@kristi4113 Жыл бұрын
Yes. The ones Elissa stole end up with Dany.
@KenDelloSandro7565 Жыл бұрын
The person who was truly behind that whole operation was Androw Fahrman's sister. It was part of Elissa Fahrman's plan all along......
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
How?
@anaiglesias9972 4 жыл бұрын
Amazing video
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@tinahs8269 Жыл бұрын
His sister, perhaps...? She snuck out of dragon stone, why couldn't she sneak back in? She obviously had a beef with the princess, plus the added motive of distracting the targaryens from searching for her...along with a lifetime of experience manipulating Andrew.
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
Cause she was busy going on her travel around the world? Why waste the money she needed for her ship on the tears of lys? Why risk getting caught when she had everything she needed to be free?
@arianewinter4266 3 жыл бұрын
The young rheana did not sound mean, just introverted
@atomicsunrise85 4 жыл бұрын
What are some of the other mysterious deaths you alluded to that occur during Jaehaerys rise to power?
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
Maegor was the first one, with him found dead on the throne. Then Septon Moon outside of Oldtown. I gave the quote where Lord Massey suggested hiring assassins for Septon Mattheus. I can't remember off the top of my head, but there was a lot of lucky breaks for the young king.
@alanpennie8013 4 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician Was it the maesters' doing do you think?
@EL-ISS 4 ай бұрын
You'd think the Maesters serving at least the High Lords and Royal family would be required to know the effects of the Tears of Lys poison since it's so dangerous and primarily used on high nobles and royals. It wouldn't be hard to send Maesters to Lys to learn about it. Unless of course, it's a closely guarded secret which is what I assume. At that point, have Maesters who are the most experienced in it to teach others. May not stop the poison from being used but it'd at least be identified earlier to cross out a pandemic and remedied (if there's even an antidote, lol).
@andregordon2599 2 жыл бұрын
23:06 Dear HBO . Basically, give me awesome character moments/ dialog like this, and House of the Dragon will be incredible
@scottofgreywaterwatch1298 4 жыл бұрын
I vote spurned lions. Great video!
@RonnieFlare17 6 ай бұрын
Wow great video! I felt bad for Andrew while reading Fire & Blood as at first it just seemed like he was a nice enough guy who helped out a friend in her hour of need--ie keeping Rhaena from another political marriage that she didn't want--and acting as a wing-man for his sister. Only to then be treated as Rhaena's whipping boy because her life didn't go as she planned. That obviously ended when we got to the whole murder plot thing. If this was Jaeherys' plan, the one hitch I'm seeing was killing the other girls on Fair Isle. If you want to hide the deaths as an epidemic, the other people need to die, or at least get very sick with the same symptoms as I think people would notice if no one else came down with this 'disease'. Which would explain the maester but... I don't buy Jaeherys ordering the poisonings of the other people as well. After all, the Hand of the King's NIECE was there, and other nobles whose only real crime was their proximity to his troublesome sister. Even if he only ordered Andrew to give them smaller doses so they'd get symptoms but not die, that is an incredibly risky move. Although like you said it could just have been Andrew going off script, as he was JUST supposed to kill the maester and Rhaena.
@courtneymazza9550 Жыл бұрын
Nice one, bud. 💗
@JoeMagician Жыл бұрын
Maddie really selling that Rhaena eh?
@morgenzon69 Жыл бұрын
the fact that the Pentoshi Hand (i forget his name) goes "definitely wasn't me though" does make him sound a bit suspicious huh. also Jahaerys has been shown to not be THAT keen of women's rights either, even trying to shut down Alysanne's plans on occasion only to have men then convince him it's a good thing actually. and then the way he treated and disowned his kids. When Aerea was heir he paid no attention to her either, he never intended to have her crowned. i think maybe he found the idea of Rhaena (or her only offspring being women) being crowned offensive: it IS because of him that the whole firstborn son succession rather than firstborn child is now a thing, he socially set that precedent for the rest of the lords and ladies. sure he did a lot of good, but Alysanne still had to fight for the few reforms for women's rights she made happen.
@candicewilson290 4 жыл бұрын
I named my daughter Rayna Daenerys. I thought I was naming her after Daenerys Targaryen, never knew she had an ancestor named Rhaena..wow
@TupDigital 2 жыл бұрын
Man....hearing that rendition of Lysa's rant to Petyr B gave me a near attack of female-related PTSD
@rodrickhatton8636 4 жыл бұрын
I love this story so much because it flips the whole "woman scorned" idea you normally see. Its actually pretty sad that he was so twisted over such a long period of time that he decided to just go on a murder spree. Somehow, it's made more depressing coming from a dude. Maybe it's because it's so different?
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
It's something that's a lot more common in real life than fiction. "Woman scorned" is a trope in media, but men who feel scorned romantically accounts for a massive amount of violence against women. Beatings, murders, physical attacks. In some countries men will throw acid on the faces of women who rejected them. In a very depressing way, Androw's attack is a very common one in our real world and something that women live with every day as they try to mitigate the chances that some rejected man will get violent in response.
@made-line7627 4 жыл бұрын
@@JoeMagician Yep. The most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she finally leaves (if she's still alive). Of course this isn't to say that men do not suffer domestic violence, it's just a much more common thing for women to suffer physical violence from male partners or rejected suitors.
@connorhicks1712 Жыл бұрын
@@made-line7627 its more talked about not more common
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
The woman spurned is such a weird trope given its prominence and just how much more likely it is for a woman to get hurt or killed by a spurned lover then the other way around.... The statistic is insane and depressing, but sure, women are the crazy murderers
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
@@connorhicks1712 not true. Just like with sexual harrasment and voilance, women are disproportionately more often the victim and men the aggressors and the level of how bad it is tends to be way higher, that's just a fact. You are absolutely right, that there is gianormous amount of men who never report, but there is also a big amount of women who never report and the chasim is to big for it to come out as equal in the end. You can twist the numbers on how often one gets hit, or sexual harassment but not of homocide! I would not argue, that women are inherintly better for it though, but if you are physicly inferior it is plainly way harder to pull of that level of voilance.
@tombullard123 10 ай бұрын
I definitely think baratheon was behind it. While jahearys would be interesting, him intervening and ending up saving her life doesn’t really make sense if he supplied tears of lys to make sure it was unnoticed, he wouldn’t have needed to bring in an expert either. Although it doesn’t really seem to fit rogars style to poison, she threatened to burn him and his family alive after his wife just died. I think he would’ve thought she needed to die by any means, and he couldn’t exactly attack the kings sister
@made-line7627 3 жыл бұрын
Who were Area and her twin's (Baela?) father?
@JoeMagician 3 жыл бұрын
Aerea and Rhaella's father was her first husband's, Aegon.
@rattleduck9167 9 ай бұрын
Time traveling Tyrion confirmed
@theelectricprince8231 4 ай бұрын
I find it scary how reductive the analysis of Tyrion is. That he is an actual monster
@semaera 4 жыл бұрын
Will it be worse than The Night Fort?!
@JoeMagician 4 жыл бұрын
Nothing is worse than the Night Fort
@jeffgustafson4552 4 жыл бұрын
Ramsay's private chambers?
@Crobertg10 2 жыл бұрын
Baratheon!!
@jamestaylor8037 4 жыл бұрын
A weasel in the bowels helped him.. also known as a maester
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
Which one, the one he poisoned?
@artostheimplacable4095 3 жыл бұрын
Feels like they asked for it . I would feel bad for him, but it seems he got his . No need to feel anything for the situation. But intrigued. Very good telling of the tale.
@Kabamracat 3 жыл бұрын
Honestly I'm not sure it was any of them it might be it really was just Androw acting by himself
@modddy0025 11 ай бұрын
The least based man in Westeros💪
@theelectricprince8231 4 ай бұрын
I see some people trying to demonise Androw bu saying he was just mediocre and lazy to justify the decades of mistreatment and abuse at the hands of Rhaena but this 4:36 clearly proves he was mentally disabled. Even if he were lazy, he could have atleast left the gates and had more freedom.
@UAPReportingCenter 2 жыл бұрын
This is great 🤣
@alt-monarchist Жыл бұрын
It was Bran Stark going back in time to poison Rhaeyna
@iceleaf2 Жыл бұрын
💓🔥💓
@ugurogluusa3245 3 жыл бұрын
Pentosi had the eggs al this time until daenerys mmmmm
@flyingpianos123 Жыл бұрын
true crime: westeros
@taylorgayhart9497 Жыл бұрын
Sooooooo basically he was treated as a lady. He was married off to a powerful family, and had no say in his own home, had no power over his wife, and had to put up with it when his partner had affairs. He was treated exactly how lords treated their wives, and he didn’t like it.
@Sima-pr3rp Жыл бұрын
لا يجب على احد ان يتحمل معاملة الاخرين له و كأنه لا شيء لانه رجل و تعاملة زوجته بشكل سيء اصبح الامر جيدا؟
@Ch50304 Жыл бұрын
Wel, the lord can at least force himself on his wife, poor guy could not even force himself on Rhaena.
@jmpabd872 Жыл бұрын
I won't say he was treated as a lady.. Most ladies were treated well by their husbands
@theelectricprince8231 4 ай бұрын
You are full of s***. Androw was mentally disabled, no lady was treated as badly as Androw.
@Singularity24601 Жыл бұрын
"I suck, but it's everyone else's fault. Instead of improving myself, I'm going to lash out." Androw Farman = incel?
@Sima-pr3rp Жыл бұрын
كلما بادر بمساعدة زوجته قابلته بالسخرية منه لقد حاول ولكنه افسد الامر عندما قرر قتل الجميع
@Ch50304 Жыл бұрын
Rh- i am goin to abuse and isolate my husband. show him no love and treat my friends way better = girl boss?
@jmpabd872 Жыл бұрын
Men who are physically and mentally abused=Incel?
@arianewinter4266 Жыл бұрын
@@Ch50304 not really, but that does not mean he was a great person either
@Singularity24601 Жыл бұрын
@@jmpabd872 If their response to the abuse is to murder people, including people who didn't abuse them? Yes.
Joe Magician
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