Diffusion Confusion - www.AcousticFields.com

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Acoustic Fields

Acoustic Fields

3 жыл бұрын

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- In this video we're going to talk about all the confusion when it comes to acoustical diffusion. Watch the video to find out more!

Пікірлер: 59
@fahadalhbag1700
@fahadalhbag1700 3 жыл бұрын
You Are The Best Thing that happened in 2020 so far ❤️
@brown-eyedman4040
@brown-eyedman4040 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you again Mr. Foley. You actually responded to an email of mine some time ago with the same info. Greatly appreciated. Btw, in my wood butcher days we used to say "I done cut it twice and it's still too short".
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Yes, measure twice cut once.
@jvf6257
@jvf6257 3 жыл бұрын
Good point love it the way you put it, educating so many engineers and producers, think that the room it’s all about the look, it’s what the room need the phrase of the day, thx for your videos
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Form + Substance = Essence
@petertalalight7340
@petertalalight7340 3 жыл бұрын
This answered a question that I have had for a while, specifically what the max well depth is for each prime number. Thanks!
@NinJa-yg7kh
@NinJa-yg7kh 3 жыл бұрын
thank you dennis
@bluehousemusic844
@bluehousemusic844 3 жыл бұрын
Dennis is the best!
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your kind words.
@printerek
@printerek 3 жыл бұрын
Very funny today. Thanks 😁
@markwilson0077
@markwilson0077 3 жыл бұрын
Hey Dennis, I've got QD7 panels all across my back wall in my listening room (2ft behind listening position). Assuming I'd like diffusion on my front wall, maybe QD11 (front wall is 14Ft from listening position). Where should I place both panels, behind loudspeakers, corners or entire front wall? I've purchased your build plans, importation is simply impractical, thanks in advance. Thanks much for continuing to share the knowledge!
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Start your diffusion 24" off the floor and cover the entire wall surface area.
@villumartverk8942
@villumartverk8942 3 жыл бұрын
Hi! I have three QDR-13 units at the front wall and four QDR-11 units rear wall and they work fine. I was wondering, if I change the rear wall diffusers also to three QDR-13 units since they are wider. Whould I benefit something? The listening position from the rear wall is 5.25 ft. (QDR -11 recommended minimum) and room width is 13.8 ft. It's a 2 channel listening room. Thank You.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Each prime number is almost another octave. Try it and let us know.
@Art_Of_Sound
@Art_Of_Sound 3 жыл бұрын
Dennis...you are a legend for sure :-) Humble and presenting all this great info...basically for free. Really appreciate it and the way you present is fast enough and rich enough; dont change the format. I wanted to ask; in terms of diffusion and your definition, when I do modelling eg with a reverb, the diffusion is really smashing the reflections and low diffusion manifests as 'visible' rippling and slapping, even at hi freq. Im trying to unravel if your reference to QRD being diffusers is more related towards phase dissipation and is veering towards a cultural point of view (ie that of sound engineers)? Heres what I mean DIFFUSION: the action of spreading the light from a light source evenly to reduce glare and harsh shadows. (or ray tracing with reflection control I guess) In PHYSICS : the intermingling of substances by the natural movement of their particles (because we are dealing with gases but unnatural mingling :) So let me take a visual reference like a light diffuser; there is little cancellation, Im not seeing much of particular colours highlighting etc but conversely with sound, measuring the room, I can see there are 'colour peaks' and troughs but in regards to applying a QRD solution; isnt that more like a passive spatial eq? If I take it to an extreme eg a limestone cave, the millions of surface variations eg texture, right through to the many pockets and forms, of course contribute to an extended rt60 but the actual sound, to my ears anyway is so smooth. So what Im getting to is, diffusion I had thought was producing the psychoacoustic effect of space and removing the low ms spatial interpretation our brain tries to put it...and cramp the space? I look at something like the Hamburg Opera House...and of course its so so much more complex than that. I understand the concept of basing room treatment on the fundamentals and that makes sense because the canvas should be white, so to speak ie so that the music has a clear background but for small rooms; shouldn't smoothing the 'light' be considered? rather than harsh reflections (and of course rt60 control without hearing your own heartbeat :-) Another reason I ask is because I have spent a fair bit of time working on diffusion panels (or scattering panels if you like) that are attached to damping membranes and Im hoping to use room analysis to then model the damping solution ie energy being transferred as kinetic in the lows. A bit like a shock absorber system when guys are doing motocross and adjust those parameters to be suit the track they are riding on....all a work in progress but Im thankful for the alogrithmic modelling of eg Grasshopper and the relatively easy management of QRD > CAM. Here is a pic of one of the very first prototype small tile...has changed a lot since then so its only an indicator; these mount on lead vinyl membrane in a particular suspension capacity which is tuneable in modelling. They use a sustainable cellulose masonry composite called aurastone which contains a lot of wood but is still quite dense; I originally developed as a material called Wood Stone which is used in construction here in Australia, so its related to that. photos.app.goo.gl/tH9CkDwjsKUL7btE9 They are part of a treatment system, including tuned QRD lightweight masonry blocks of the same material that is create on a per room basis depending on requirements. We are currently trying to get it evaluated at University Of Technology in Sydney. Really appreciate any insight you might give; your wisdom is highly valued. Cheers Mark
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Diffusion increases Rt-30 times. This is why you must have your absorbent coefficients managed correctly prior to diffusion.
@Art_Of_Sound
@Art_Of_Sound 3 жыл бұрын
@@AcousticFields thanks Dennis. Without changing the underlying mirroring surface of energy, wont the nature of the reflection still be highly charged? Ie if the energy is first diffused (for psychacoustic perception) then wont absorption requirements be less? Ie t30 often being extrapolated because of t60 linear relationship difficulty in measurement ie background noise. The reason why im asking all this is because, in my limited experience, the hard mirror affects the transient and hence depth cue. As i have added absorption, it has at the same time affected the 'feel' negatively, to overcome the t60. Being in a natural space with even very hard surfaces but which had fractal variation of the surface, it felt so good and music was so much better. An example is walking into a home made of one of the construction products i use to make; in this case they were hand made blocks with rough raked joints and very bulged adobe brick shape...it still had prob t60 of 2 secs but compared to a normal flat wall, very different. Thats what started me on this journey (and the block alone was stc 51 compared to cinder block at 38 with nothing added). Was amazing just that difference alone
@caldasnake16
@caldasnake16 3 жыл бұрын
Hey, Dennis. I got a small 7.1 HT room (~12ft D x ~11ft W x ~ 12-13ft H) with the window on the back wall. Considering the back wall space from each side of the window is about 4ft from the listening position and about 1-2ft in width, is there any quadratic diffuser size / design that would give me a tangible benefit by installing 2 or 4 units on the back wall? On the ceiling the only hurdle would be the fan, which would be manageable. I got a fair amount of acoustic foam to treat mids and highs on almost all the corners ("bass trap" design) and panels on the side and rear walls. I still didn't treat the ceiling due to budget at the time and research about the possibility and optimal diffusion solution for the ceiling and back walls for HT usage, as per your teachings, and my limitations in space. Note: Unfortunately the door is on the front right corner of the room, so between having the front speakers high up on the shelf, above the door, near the ceiling, or having the window on a side wall, I chose the former with the window on the back. Thanks in advance.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
This room will require extensive analysis. What is your budget for this project?
@caldasnake16
@caldasnake16 3 жыл бұрын
​@@AcousticFields Actually it's my bedroom turned into a HT room. To be honest all my budget for this project was already spent when I've renovated the room recently - furniture, breaking all walls and ceiling to put all the audio cable tubes inside, painting, some local acoustic foam, desk, shelves - plus upgrading my audio gear. All 7 channels, including, the sub, were upgraded to the latest Klipsch Reference Premiere series. For the future, there’s also pending the AV Receiver upgrade to 11 channels - 4 ceiling channels for Atmos / 3D audio. I’m from Brazil and before the pandemic the exchange rate from USD to BRL was already steep, around 3:1, and now it’s 5:1, close to 6. And then there would be the absolutely insane import taxes and shipping fees, so it just wouldn’t be feasible to invest in importing high end products for diffusion and LF treatment solutions. That’s why I’m looking into alternate / DIY solutions for diffusion and LF, since it’s much more complex than absorbing mids and highs. In any case, I really appreciate your responses and sharing your knowledge. Really like your videos! Have a nice day!
@jeffgrayson7639
@jeffgrayson7639 Жыл бұрын
Once again right on point. My question would be when I add one dimensional diffusion to the rear wall in a 2 channel setup should the front wall also be one or can I apply two dimensions in the front.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields Жыл бұрын
Tou must cover more surface area with diffusion. I would need to know much more data.
@jeffgrayson7639
@jeffgrayson7639 Жыл бұрын
@@AcousticFields Dennis I have a small 2channel listening room . The room measures 15 ft deep x 11, the back half of the room becomes 8 ft wide. The right side of the front stage opens to a kitchen (that opening is 6 ft across. The left side has an opening to a bedroom (that's about 2 1/2 ft. Right now I have all foam treatment on front /rear/sides with thick foam bass traps in the corners where possible. I'm looking into diffusion so I can up my acoustic game (so to speak) and I've been listening to all of your talks on the subject. I don't have deep pockets so I'm going with the GIK 4 Alpha series on my front stage and my question regards the rear, should I go with the Impression pro 4 two dimensions or stay with the same as my front wall? I run a pair of Polk Signature 55s (soon to be upgraded to KLH Kendall's), and I have dual SVS 1000 sealed subs (one on the front wall the other in the rear .
@pavlo2692
@pavlo2692 3 жыл бұрын
What to do with frequencies that are not covered by diffuser? Let's say we have a whole back wall covered by diffusers that work in 300-3500Hz range. Assuming we have 30-100 range covered by absorbers located behind the diffusers, we're left with 100(125)-300 and 3500 and upwards, how do we treat them on the back wall, if at all?
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
What is the sonic goal of the room? Placing diffusers here and there without a sonic strategy is a waste of time and money.
@pavlo2692
@pavlo2692 3 жыл бұрын
@@AcousticFields I understand. I was talking about 2ch listening setup. As i know, diffusers are often used on a back wall in such scenario and I was curious what happens with sound that arrives at the back wall and is out of the frequency range of the diffuser? How does it behave then? Do frequencies that strike back wall diffuser, but outside of its range, cause significant problems?
@mpelevic
@mpelevic 3 жыл бұрын
Pavlo if your wall is untreated, they are going to be reflected, if treated with absorber, they are going to be absorbed. If you use logic, you can pretty much predict what that is going to sound like. As he said, you have to have reason to treat, then develop strategy how to mend and cure your problems. It is absolutely senseless to put those things here and there for no reason whatsoever. You would create more problems, and then you go down the rabbit hole.
@peterjgeraghty
@peterjgeraghty 2 жыл бұрын
Hi, Dennis. I'm interested in the idea that there is some relationship between prime numbers and 'depth.' Please send me a link to a source that provides the mathematical basis for this relationship. Thank you.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 2 жыл бұрын
Research the fact that well depth proportionality factor = n2 modulo p where n = integer > = 0 / p = prime number.
@jonhubert372
@jonhubert372 2 жыл бұрын
Just getting back into home audio after 35 years. Were building a new house with a room over the garage for dedicated listening. It's under the roof, so it's a canted ceiling at a 10/12 pitch with 48" sidewalls, a peak (or slight flat at about 102" and a room size of 12' x 16' with one window on the front wall and one door at the back left corner. What's your recommendation for initial framing of room prior to any overlay treatment? Stud, rafter and joist configuration/insulation and then veneer ply over that, then absorbtion, then diffusion? I was a career woodworker and am comfortable with all phases of construction and would like to DIY the room. Thanks, Jon
@benjoe999
@benjoe999 2 жыл бұрын
a video compairson would be cool on why other diffusers aren't great! I've seen the video why quadratic is great. I am using curved diffuser,because as I know quadratic is causing phase distortions.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 2 жыл бұрын
Who told you that quadratic diffusion produces phase distortions?
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields Жыл бұрын
They do not produce phase distortions if properly set up.
@KC-bi9jw
@KC-bi9jw 3 жыл бұрын
"Quadratic Diffusion is the chocolate syrup on the ice cream, but you gotta have the ice cream first" Bravo!
@vortexchilling3816
@vortexchilling3816 3 жыл бұрын
How far do i have to sit away from prime 7 qr diffusors on the back wall?
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Start with 4' - 5' minimum.
@vortexchilling3816
@vortexchilling3816 3 жыл бұрын
Acoustic Fields thanks for your reply! I wanted to ask about prime 11 qr diffusors, too. Does the distance increase?
@dragonstone6594
@dragonstone6594 5 ай бұрын
If we can't mix diffuser types can we mix the prime number? For example can we put your QD-23 diffuser next to a QD-17? Or sandwich the QD-23 between two QD-17's?
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 5 ай бұрын
What would your goal be? They are approximately the same size.
@dragonstone6594
@dragonstone6594 5 ай бұрын
​@@AcousticFieldsI'm just asking theoretically. But one practical reason would be space constrains, for example: If 3 QD-23's don't fit on the wall but 1 QD-23 and 2 QD-17's do. Or another reason is if I want more diffusion in the center but less left and right.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 5 ай бұрын
@@dragonstone6594 It is best to keep one prime number on a complete surface area to avoid phase. You can alternate vertical and horizontal placements but it is best to keep the prime the same.
@dragonstone6594
@dragonstone6594 5 ай бұрын
@@AcousticFields Got it. Thank you :)
@vib_di
@vib_di 3 жыл бұрын
Yup, diffusion is the last step in treatment, diffusion needs very critical monitoring and measurements before and after Quardatic Residue Diffusion applied, because skyline dosent make much difference in diffusion and induce wave distortions QRD is recommended. Also be careful with Comb-filtering due to diffusion, especially if room is small. C80 and C50 are helpful and also SPL and phase measurements are essential for proper diffusion applications. Thanks😊
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
"Skyline" is a product name for a two dimensional diffuser. Two dimensional diffusion can have a positive impact on a sound field if used correctly.
@vib_di
@vib_di 3 жыл бұрын
@@AcousticFields Is QRD three or One dimensional? If yes, can you please explain how?
@AlexLapugean
@AlexLapugean 3 жыл бұрын
Those in the corners are actually absorbers (corner "bass traps"), not diffusers. I've see a lot of these designs, it is a thin plywood sheet or something similar with various cutout designs, but behind it there is some type of absorber material.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Whatever the treatment type, there is not enough surface area coverage with proper rate and level.
@AlexLapugean
@AlexLapugean 3 жыл бұрын
@@AcousticFields Sure, I'm not arguing that. But would you say it is OK to mix absorption and diffusion on a wall (provided the entire area is covered), or is better to use just one?
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
@@AlexLapugean Everything depends on usage
@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds
@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds 2 жыл бұрын
I think my room told me it needs a 12" subwoofer from Klipsch.😃
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 2 жыл бұрын
No, that is your mind playing tricks on you.
@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds
@L-Noble.YT_Hi.Res-Soundminds 2 жыл бұрын
@@AcousticFields Are you sure? Sometimes I hear voices at night saying I would like a subwoofer Lazaro! The Spl 120 is nice and it will compliment my decor...😅
@andyb6851
@andyb6851 3 жыл бұрын
I've watched many Dennis' diffusion videos, but I haven't seen one thing addressed. The diffusers on AF's website mostly diffuse from under 300 up to 3400 cycles. What is the reasoning behind such a design and would it make sense to make a diffuser that goes even higher since human hearing is a lot more more sensitive in the range of 1500 to 5500 cycles? Here's the chart for human hearing sensitivity qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5432f774ad7f623c6d2b2e681d3c7316 P.S.: Big thanks for these videos Dennis, they're very informative.
@henrydegner2047
@henrydegner2047 3 жыл бұрын
The reason is that it is not possible (to my knowledge) to make a diffuser that covers the entire audible spectrum. Even if it was, it would most likely be mostly ineffective. The range of the diffusers at acoustic fields is a good middle ground given the range limitations of diffusers, however diffusers can be made to cover any frequency (with exceptions in the super low end like sub 50 Hertz) .
@pavlo2692
@pavlo2692 3 жыл бұрын
Was curious about this like you are. I searched for QRD theory and found this: www.subwoofer-builder.com/qrd.htm, an interpretation of Acoustic *Absorbers and Diffusers: Theory, Design and Application By Trevor Cox, Peter D'Antonio* book. In short, to increase HF cutoff of the diffuser, we need to decrease well width, but we will quickly run into various problems, such as period width (width occupied by the wells plus the same number of fins) being less than the wavelength of the lowest frequency diffused, which will decrease lowest frequency of the diffuser. Another well width limitation is determined by so-called *Viscous limit* - resonant behaviour when energy is transfered from in-resonance wells to adjacent not-in-resonance wells, this limit depends on the panel depth, it seems like. There are other things to consider, I really recommend to read the article, fascinating stuff. I also played with the QRDude calculator, which considers those restrictions, and it looks like we can use higher prime numbers (19, 23, etc.) with no-so-large panel to make wells thin but still avoiding problems listed above and others, listed in the article. There are lot of factors to consider, all design parameters need to be in a fine balance with each other, it's easy to screw everything up. I'm in no way an expert, so please take this with a grain of salt and read research yourself ;) It would be great if Dennis could elaborate on this.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
You must decide what your sonic goals are for the room. Diffusion/absorption technologies are tactics that one uses to achieve a sonic goal that is predetermined.
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields Жыл бұрын
You can design the frequency response of the diffuser you require for your usage.
@williamblackwell9558
@williamblackwell9558 3 жыл бұрын
Acoustic Fields is the best. What do you think goes through the minds of people that spend $40000 on one speaker cable but not one cent on room treatment?
@AcousticFields
@AcousticFields 3 жыл бұрын
Achieving quality sound in any critical listening environment requires many steps. These steps must then be sequenced so that certain steps build on the steps before them and after them. We find that cables can have up to a 20 % improvement in balance, resolution, and definition. None of these can be heard well enough to justify the cable cost in an untreated room. Achieving sound quality in small rooms is all about doing the right things in the right order.
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