How to image and create disks for retro computers

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Adrian's Digital Basement

Adrian's Digital Basement

Күн бұрын

It's fun to work with old retro computers, but what's not always fun is trying to make disks for them so you can actually use them. This video is a guide to cover making FM and MFM disks using a PC. Many old computers use this format of floppy disk and if you have one, this video is for you.
This video isn't for you if you are trying to make disks for the Apple II, Commodore PET/VIC-20/64, Amiga or Mac (800k disks.)
0:00 Intro
00:46 Part 0 - The problem
3:20 Part 1 - Floppy disk encoding
8:39 Part 2 - Physical attributes
16:50 Part 3 - The disk drives
20:13 Part 4 - Picking you parts
26:23 Part 5 - Building the machine
34:30 Part 6 - Setting up ImageDisk
41:12 Part 7 - Making disks
53:38 Part 8 - Conclusion
-- Video Links
Michael Haardt's floppy guide with lots of technical information:
www.moria.de/~michael/floppy/f...
For the Apple II and Macintosh, I recommend the FloppyEmu:
www.bigmessowires.com/floppy-...
For the C64/VIC-20/C128 I recommend a SDIEC: (lots of options here, search around a bit)
www.etsy.com/market/sd2iec
For the Amiga, a Gotek with FlashFloppy works well:
github.com/keirf/flashfloppy
ImageDisk:
dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/in...
TexElec Quad Floppy card:
(not out yet)
Recovering a floppy disk using an oscilloscope: (Fascinating read!)
scarybeastsecurity.blogspot.c...
Adrian's Digital Basement Merch store:
my-store-c82bd2-2.creator-spr...
Adrian's Digital Basement ][ (Second Channel)
/ @adriansdigitalbasement2
Support the channel on Patreon:
/ adriansdigitalbasement
-- Tools
Deoxit D5:
amzn.to/2VvOKy1
store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.16...
O-Ring Pick Set: (I use these to lift chips off boards)
amzn.to/3a9x54J
Elenco Electronics LP-560 Logic Probe:
amzn.to/2VrT5lW
Hakko FR301 Desoldering Iron:
amzn.to/2ye6xC0
Rigol DS1054Z Four Channel Oscilloscope:
www.rigolna.com/products/digi...
Head Worn Magnifying Goggles / Dual Lens Flip-In Head Magnifier:
amzn.to/3adRbuy
TL866II Plus Chip Tester and EPROM programmer: (The MiniPro)
amzn.to/2wG4tlP
www.aliexpress.com/item/33000...
TS100 Soldering Iron:
amzn.to/2K36dJ5
www.ebay.com/itm/TS100-65W-MI...
EEVBlog 121GW Multimeter:
www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/
DSLogic Basic Logic Analyzer:
amzn.to/2RDSDQw
www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Logic-DS...
Magnetic Screw Holder:
amzn.to/3b8LOhG
www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-...
Universal ZIP sockets: (clones, used on my ZIF-64 test machine)
www.ebay.com/itm/14-16-18-20-...
RetroTink 2X Upconverter: (to hook up something like a C64 to HDMI)
www.retrotink.com/
Plato (Clone) Side Cutters: (order five)
www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-5-10PCS-...
Heat Sinks:
www.aliexpress.com/item/32537...
Little squeezy bottles: (available elsewhere too)
amzn.to/3b8LOOI
--- Links
My GitHub repository:
github.com/misterblack1?tab=r...
Commodore Computer Club / Vancouver, WA - Portland, OR - PDX Commodore Users Group
www.commodorecomputerclub.com/
--- Instructional videos
My video on damage-free chip removal:
• How to remove chips wi...
--- Music
Intro music and other tracks by:
Nathan Divino
@itsnathandivino

Пікірлер: 505
@adriansdigitalbasement
@adriansdigitalbasement Жыл бұрын
FAQ: 1. 5.25" drives come in 48, 96 or 100TPI versions. 3.5" based on the Sony mech are 135TPI. 2. I didn't go much on the concept of "Single Density" and "Double sensity." but there is no such thing as single density or double density drive or floppy disk. They are both just encoding methods that the floppy disk controller speaks. It's like saving a picture in GIF or PNG. One is just more efficient than the other, but they both do the same thing and you can save those files anywhere. The data rate of FM or MFM encoding can be 250kbps or 500kbs as the data rate doesn't have anything to do with single density FM or double density MFM encoding. All the disk drive sees is a stream of 0s and 1s, and it saves those onto a disk and then can read then back. The controller IC itself is what "speaks" MFM or FM, and it will decode or encode data to or from those encoding formats. This Wikipedia article has some additional information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_frequency_modulation Things get a bit messy with High Density. I did mention that High Density is just double density MFM encoding used at 500kbps on 5.25" or 3.5" disks. It only applies to 5.25" or 3.5" as 8" disk drives always used 500kbps as their data rate and early controllers used FM and later controllers switched to MFM. The NEC APC wrote at 500kbps MFM double sided, but this was not called high density, it was always called double density because of the MFM encoding. IBM muddied things up when they made the 5.25" High Density drive with the non standard 360rpm and 500kbit data rate. Worse yet, in order to pack in twice as much data using 500kbps, the drive needs to use a different write strategy for 500kbps and the floppy disks themselves needed to be reformulated. Think of Metal Type IV audio takes versus Normal Type 1. The problem is HD 5.25" disks are physically identical (As far as the drive is concerned) do the 250kbps SD/DD version. So the drive doesn't know what to do. Sony fixed this with the 3.5" High Density disks later, but even those just use MFM at double the data rate for high density. It's still technically a double density disk as far as encoding goes, just double the data is packed into each track. I know it's confusing! Hope this helps a little! 3. It might be possible to use RLL encoding on floppy drives. This would give another 50% improvement in storage capacity over MFM using the same 250kbps! FM -> 50% better -> MFM -> 50% better -> RLL. This was done on ST-506 hard drives (often called MFM drives) which used MFM encoding primarily, I think at 5mbit. Switching to a RLL controller would give you that 50% capacity and speed boost. (Note that MFM drives almost always spin at 3600rpm, 10x what 8" drives ran at.) The only problem with RLL on floppies is their speed isn't as stable as a heavy spinning hard disk, so that instability might lead to problems decoding the data properly. A big part of how RLL is more efficient is how less clock data is encoded into the data, but that means that instability in the speed of the disk would result in data loss. 4: Hard sector disks. I didn't touch on this either and it's another wrinkle in the floppy drive universe. These disks are the same as normal 5.25" disks, but instead of one index hole, there are usually 16. (Or is it 18?) The index holes create pulses that the drive controller use as a reference to where to write sector data onto the floppy disk. These were needed on old primitive controller cards that did all of the encoding using TLL logic. Once highly integrated LSI controller chips like the WD1791 came out, they no longer needed all of the index holes as the controller only needed one index pulse to synchronize itself. This allowed for the use of variable number of sectors per track, as the controlled IC was handling all of that. Some floppy drive systems like the GCR encoding on the Apple II and Commodore don't use the index pulses at all. This is why you can flip those disks over to use the back side, while this is not possible with systems using these LSI controller chips. You can use a hard sector disk just fine in a Commodore or Apple II, as the index pulses aren't used, but you cannot use a hard sector disk in a system that is "soft sectored" as the controller will be immediately confused by the large number of pulses. You can use a Kryoflux to make disk images of hard sector floppy disks, using command line switches. It can then write back the images as well. DIsk drives themselves are not hard sector or soft sector. It is strictly the controller that requires one type of disk or another. (With one index hole per track, or many.)
@rager1969
@rager1969 Жыл бұрын
When you have a spare week or so, maybe you can make a revised version of the video that includes these this info, as it's very good info that some may not realize is in this FAQ.
@mattparker9726
@mattparker9726 Жыл бұрын
2:58 then please do so.
@FrankenLab
@FrankenLab Жыл бұрын
I've found this page to be really helpful too. It covers technical specs for both disk formats and drives/controller: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats
@CoCoNutBob
@CoCoNutBob Жыл бұрын
Back when floppy disks were like gold to me, I converted some hard-sectored disks to soft sectored by covering the extra holes. 🫣
@Nightowl_IT
@Nightowl_IT Жыл бұрын
I believe it is possible that you can do the reading and writing of wide tracks and other odd formats even with the standard PC floppy controller as it might have a manual mode that lets the CPU take control. If that is true the question would be if somebody already wrote the software? Or maybe somebody can conjure up a way with SDR and other tricks.
@stathissim
@stathissim Жыл бұрын
This could be a highly paid course on computer history instead of KZfaq video :) great job as always
Жыл бұрын
USER CREATING YOUR OWnERin DISKS ? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
@miketech1024
@miketech1024 Жыл бұрын
You Sir, are a whole gift to the entire retro computing world! I recently used the TRS-80 diagnostic ROM you co-authored to resurrect one of my Model 3s. Your channel motivated me to finally get working on them, and I’ve started a video series on the process!
@papafrank7094
@papafrank7094 Жыл бұрын
Subbed to your channel to see your video series.
@admonius9668
@admonius9668 Жыл бұрын
It’s 2023 for me and this is the first video I’m watching for the new year
@searching4stars250
@searching4stars250 Жыл бұрын
Happy new year 🎉
@Okurka.
@Okurka. Жыл бұрын
It's 5783 for me.
@tschak909
@tschak909 Жыл бұрын
The 3" drives you mention for the "Amstrads" are Hitachi 3" mechanisms. They run at 250kbps, and just use the standard signalling. They are configured as single sided units, but the disks can explicitly flipped.
@TSteffi
@TSteffi Жыл бұрын
I distinctly remember i had a 3" Drive hooked up to my 386 back in the day. The low storage made them almost useless, but I used them as boot disks for different configurations. Until I figured out config.sys menu commands, that is
@fattomandeibu
@fattomandeibu Жыл бұрын
@@TSteffi The Amstrad CPC machines that used these drives were simple Z80 based machines with 128k of RAM, so the capacity was fine for those. Can't imagine them being much use on a 386, though.
@TSteffi
@TSteffi Жыл бұрын
@@fattomandeibu they really weren't. Could barely fit a dos bootdisk on there.
@gangrel_eu
@gangrel_eu Жыл бұрын
@@fattomandeibu To expand, the Amstrad CPC range came in 3 memory configurations 64K (464 / 664), 72K (472 which was Spain only, due to a wierd tax thing applied to machines with less than 64KB when imported), and 128K (6128). The 664 and 6128 were the "base" models that came with the Disk drive (the 464 and 472 were cassette). There was also the "plus" range, but the + versions still came with the same storage mediums as the "normal" models (although they had an additional cartridge slot for the ROM at loading) Going from memory, the disk held *up to* 180K (2K directory, 178K actual usable storage) and was double sided (so a total of 360K per 3" disk)
@GoldenDragoon
@GoldenDragoon Жыл бұрын
@@gangrel_eu The even funnier thing about the 72K CPC machines for Spain was that the 8K extra ram was just a faulty ram chip soldered onto a separate PCB and added inside the case and not even connected to anything electrically. But the machine did indeed contain 72K of ram, so it was able to be imported 🤣
@hpalvz
@hpalvz Жыл бұрын
Hi Adrian! I can confirm what you said on the video: You can connect a 3" CF2 drive like the ones used on the Amstrad CPC, PCW or ZX Spectrum +3 to a PC and dump the disk contents with a tool called CPCdiskXP and you can also "upgrade" those machines to use a regular 3.5" drive (or even a Gotek)
@adriansdigitalbasement
@adriansdigitalbasement Жыл бұрын
When you upgrade to a 3.5" drive, does it physically fit inside the machine? That would probably be the upgrade I would do simply because 3.5" disks are ubiquitous and easy to find. I will probably never end up with a CPC with a disk drive though. Rare as hen's teeth in the US. :-)
@PeterMountUK
@PeterMountUK Жыл бұрын
I can confirm this as I have placed a Gotek into a Spectrum +3
@AmstradExin
@AmstradExin Жыл бұрын
@@adriansdigitalbasement you have to file out plastics but I used a 3,5" drive in a cpc. This is a MUST upgrade, fuck those 3 inch disks... Thry are probably all dead by now. I knew a guy who had a box of 3000 non working disks. What a sad sight. Just get a 3,5 drive, you need 2 switches. One for it being able to accept a 2nd drive. The other switch is to switch side a/b of the drive. Get cpcdskxp, tape over the hd hole on the disk and there you go. I think i used cpcdskxp with a usb floppy. Very easy way to get disks to a cpc with no expensive gotek. Also you can get more data on a 3,5 disk because the floppies are not shit 3 inch disks. Something like 280kb per side is more realistic on a good 3.5 disk.
@AmstradExin
@AmstradExin Жыл бұрын
Addendum: you need the drive a/b switch, to boot from an external 3 inch drive if you really need to run a game for testing. Most games just assume you only have drive a. Also the command |cpm only runs off physical drive a:. This is a boot command alot of demos use. The wiring is simple and you can find it on the internet. Most drives work that you can change to ds0.
@PeterMountUK
@PeterMountUK Жыл бұрын
@@AmstradExin I paid £50 for a gotek already mounted in a 3D mount for the Spectrum +3 last year (2021) on eBay so it's not that expensive - gives a far better look to it without cutting up a vintage machine to fit a 3.5" drive into it.
@berndlangerich4615
@berndlangerich4615 Жыл бұрын
Fun fact: The photographer of the floppy drive motor is my colleague. He was pleased to be attributed in your video.
@adambowman1161
@adambowman1161 Жыл бұрын
I've been using GreaseWeazle lately to write disks for my Amiga 500 and have been very happy with the result.
@exidy-yt
@exidy-yt Жыл бұрын
The Greaseweazle sounds absolutely amazing, glad you are getting your money's worth! If only I wasn't stuck with an Iomega ZIP drive shot down by the Click of Death holding my Amiga backups, including some seriously vintage porn. :( Not even the Weazle can save me here.
@espressomatic
@espressomatic Жыл бұрын
I'd love to see a part 2 that expressly addresses archiving and writing disks for Amiga, Other Commodore computers, Apple II, and Mac.
@AmstradExin
@AmstradExin Жыл бұрын
I would be interested in writing Commodores 8050 1080kb disks. Quad density GCR. I think the Amiga uses this format as well. I have a bunch of 1mb Amiga 5,25" disks...
@a4000t
@a4000t Жыл бұрын
Amiga can write 1581 disks with c1581.lha from aminet. the A64 package has pinout for a amiga par cable to 1541..its slow however.
@AmstradExin
@AmstradExin Жыл бұрын
@@a4000t So the Amiga can't do this natively?
@a4000t
@a4000t Жыл бұрын
@@AmstradExin supposedly the A1020 5.25" drive can be hacked to read c64 disks,but i havent tried it. I think it needed speed adjustment or some such.
@msuc5vette
@msuc5vette Жыл бұрын
@@a4000t it’s slower than a 1541 on a C64? That sounds impossible 😂
@stevejones9044
@stevejones9044 Жыл бұрын
I used 5.25 and 3.5 disks and drives starting in the late 80s and 90s but I have never really understood the details behind the drives and disks. This was so informative and cool to watch. Thanks Adrian.
@juunidesu12
@juunidesu12 Жыл бұрын
I remember we always used TEAC drives back in the day in any PC our family set up. I actually had a combo drive in one of my towers, it was both 3.5" and 5.25" in a single half-height bay, I thought it was just amazing. I dont think I've ever seen another one ever since either.
@ferrari2k
@ferrari2k Жыл бұрын
I really would like to have one of these but they seem sooo rare to find on ebay....
@frankmeyer9984
@frankmeyer9984 Жыл бұрын
@@ferrari2k I wish I could get one of these too... 😭
@leo.binkowski
@leo.binkowski Жыл бұрын
Well this is nice and timely, I was putting off on building a new floppy extractor for my library of NABU diskettes. I've bookmarked this to review when I take another crack at them with IMD next week.
@your_utube
@your_utube Жыл бұрын
I cannot believe that I watched all of the video, but I am sure that this will become a REFERENCE VIDEO that many retro enthusists will consult as a vital tutorial. WEll laid out and considered. Thankyou for your hard work!
@pepstein
@pepstein Жыл бұрын
Wow that was quite a deep dive into the world of FM and MFM floppies! I’d love a part 2 going into GCR floppies and perhaps also the variable speed 3.25” floppies. I recall Commodore uses fewer sectors on the inner tracks to maintain a more uniform data density on the magnetic surface, while Woz used different RPM for some tracks to achieve the same effect. Would love to learn more about this stuff!
@Mueller3D
@Mueller3D Жыл бұрын
You could store more data on the larger tracks by one of two means. You can keep the same data rate, but spin the disk more slowly for the outer tracks, or you can keep the same spin rate, but increase the data rate for the outer tracks. The early Macs did the former, while later computers did the latter.
@fumthings
@fumthings Жыл бұрын
i also would love a part 2 going into GCR floppies
@K-o-R
@K-o-R Жыл бұрын
"You set both to drive select 1" ✌ "Connect drives 1 and 2 to this port and drives 2 and 3 to this port." 😁 Making both the zero-index and one-index people happy I see.
@melony172
@melony172 Жыл бұрын
This video really does boil down the different drive and disk formats that we retro enthusiasts have to deal with, and all in the one video. Whenever I need to explain this to someone in the future I won't need to fumble around with my own words trying to explain, but rather just point them to your video here. Thanks Adrian! Love your channel, one of my favourites BTW!
@bobblum5973
@bobblum5973 Жыл бұрын
I'm only about 16 minutes into your video, and you've covered so many details of the various formats that I remember having to fight through! The Tandy 2000 with 720K quad-density 5.25-inch drives, the oddball HP 150. I don't blame you for leaving out the hard-sectored floppies and things like the DEC RX-50 floppies. Back to watching the rest!
@kenh9508
@kenh9508 Жыл бұрын
The only thing I know for certain is that I will require the help of someone like yourself. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
@BerryTheBnnuy
@BerryTheBnnuy Жыл бұрын
I don't know why but I saw the title and thumbnail and thought you were talking about making the physical disks themselves and not just writing data onto disks due to the fact that nobody manufactures them anymore. That would have been a really fascinating video.
@absalomdraconis
@absalomdraconis Жыл бұрын
One modem correction: 33k was reached by just using improved encodings, but 56k actually _did_ require phone system upgrades. In fact, part of the initial modem negotiation was talking with the _phone system_ in order to switch to that improved hardware (so that the phone company could save some money).
@markphillips8019
@markphillips8019 Жыл бұрын
It required ISDN technology at the oposite end of the link. 56K was not available from person-to-person but rather person-to-service. Thats why you ended up with 33K one way and 56K the other.
@fredericksonRules
@fredericksonRules Жыл бұрын
I'm so happy you're on here, making such an incredible effort to document old tech, and especially highly detailed vids like this. We cannot let all of this important history become lost. Thank you a million times over for what you do, your knowledge, effort, and these videos!
@Jody_VE5SAR
@Jody_VE5SAR Жыл бұрын
This was a tour-de-force! It might become THE definitive source of knowledge on legacy disk formats.
@DrScriptt
@DrScriptt Жыл бұрын
Thank you for a VERY INFORMATIVE video Adrian! I have watched it twice and will be referencing it in the future as I work with 5¼" disk drives. I also find the sections on the IMD and HxC software to be very helpful. Thank you again and please keep up the great work.
@JasonSobell
@JasonSobell Жыл бұрын
The 'width' aspect of writing to 40 vs 80 track drives was only true for a few very early PC drives. In general both types of drives used the same heads, and many of the non-IBM early 5.25 drives were all 80 track devices with BIOS coded double-stepping to reduce manufacturing costs, meaning they could fleece us as consumers by charging more for 80 track devices at no extra cost to themselves :) When I was a BBC micro games developer I used the Watford Electronics DFS ROM which had commands *40 and *80 to switch modes and do double-stepping on an 80 track drive, but I created a modified EPROM version that read the track count from the outermost track when the directory loaded and auto-switched, so I could insert any disk and have it auto track-select. Fun days! These videos are always an interesting trip down memory lane, but they really make me feel old!
@markwalsh8411
@markwalsh8411 8 ай бұрын
Invaluable information (way over my head) but big thanks for preparing and providing it all. It will live forever on the internet for all to see/learn
@timbald
@timbald Жыл бұрын
I can't imagine I'm ever going to make 5.25 disks, but really enjoying your channel Adrian. Really fascinating video!
@tschak909
@tschak909 Жыл бұрын
The fundamental difference between the media of 48TPI and 96TPI drives is the oxide used. 48tpi disks use ferric oxide, and 96tpi disks use cobalt oxide, which has a much higher coercivity (600 oersteds, vs 300 oersteds.) This means that the magnetic head write current must be twice as much, in order to induce a flux transition.
@adriansdigitalbasement
@adriansdigitalbasement Жыл бұрын
I think you're talking about high density 96TPI media, not double density 96TPI media. I've always found that I can use regular 48TPI disks as 96TPI double density disks without issue... but using a high density 5.25" disk as double density doesn't work (or vice versa.)
@teikoh5690
@teikoh5690 Жыл бұрын
Oh goodness. My first homebrew powered by a Nat Semi 32008 had a SA 400 I salvaged from a bin! That picture brings back some memories!
@RavenWolfRetroTech
@RavenWolfRetroTech Жыл бұрын
That was a lot of good information Adrian! Thank You!
@andystandys
@andystandys 7 ай бұрын
When I got into this hobby and bought my Tandy 1000 SX, I had no 5.25" floppies of any kind, and no way to create system disks, so I literally had to buy some OEM sets of MS-DOS off of eBay, just so I had something to get started with. I bought them, made copies of them, (on the 1000 SX because it had has two drives,) and sold the OEM disks back on eBay! Then I was able to buy and XT-IDE CF Reader and was able to format it.
@johanneswack4017
@johanneswack4017 9 күн бұрын
Thank you Professor Black. I love your lectures so much, I do learn so many things from you, so i just want to say thank you.
@BasicBitesCA
@BasicBitesCA Жыл бұрын
1:45 The ZoomFloppy's driver suite (OpenCBM) actually just uses the generic emulator format (D64). In fact, the device can only read/write "raw/stream" (NIB) files with a 1571 or a modded 1541 with a parallel port, because a stock 1541 isn't capable of doing it -- and you need to download additional software (NIBTOOLS). So at least in the Commodore 8-bit world, the ZoomFloppy should have no problems writing out any old D64 that you download from the Internet. This is a fantastic video you've put together for MFM disks, and other systems! -- JC
@Renville80
@Renville80 Жыл бұрын
I want to call attention to a typo in the overlay text at ~20:48 where Adrian lists various 3.5" drives - the Commodore drive is the 1581, not 1851... oh, and I LOVE the use of the Boing Ball demo for the chapter sections. :)
@MarvinWestmaas
@MarvinWestmaas Жыл бұрын
I will probably never use the knowledge in this video, but I'm still watching it. Guess that's a testament to the production quality... who doesn't love mesmerizing bouncing balls over 'fancy drawings', though for me it's the always present partitioning. Not only does it allow quick access if one wants to skip to a particular segment, it always guarantees the video follows an enjoyable progressive flow. Since I only ever sometimes play with emulators, disk images is all I need. But for that, I need people like you, maybe, who will use the knowledge in this video to be able to upload those images for the plebs like me to download and use for our leisure. I would like to say: thank you, both to Mr. Black and his community for taking care of the larger community, the trickle down effect is particularly visible ( and enjoyable ) here.
@mirlivaturab9078
@mirlivaturab9078 Жыл бұрын
Detailed lessons included on this nearly 1hour video, thanks for the efforts. Thank you.
@simonwilliams8904
@simonwilliams8904 Жыл бұрын
Adrian's explanation regarding Amstrad 3" drives at 19:28 is absolutely correct: 3.5" drives can, for example, be plugged into the back of an Amstrad CPC6128 with a slightly modified floppy ribbon cable with the 5.25" / shugart edge connector.
@patkelley8293
@patkelley8293 Жыл бұрын
Today I repaired my first VIC 1541 floppy drive and FIRST bad chip in my bad chip box. Super stoked! Had a bad DOS ROM. Thank you for helping us out! Now to play Jump Man.
@ShadowTronBlog
@ShadowTronBlog Жыл бұрын
When imaging a disk in the section where you added the comment I recommend entering a description of the disk's format. Sides, Sectors per Track, FM or MFM, Data rate etc. Others who have done this have saved me a lot of time when I create disks from their images.
@Sparky1002
@Sparky1002 Жыл бұрын
thank you for making this Video very informative , I just want too Add that the Commodore 1571 Disk Drive which ( for those that do not know ) was created specifically for the C128 for the Use of its CP/M Compatibility . The Disk Drive can Run all formats mentioned here in this Video : MFM(double) FM(single) and of Course GCR.. we had a 1571 with my C128 when my Parents bought a Commodore C128 Computer back in early 1986 I had used a Program called BIG BLUE READER to Read IBM / and Kaypro Disks and Transfer TXT Files from one IBM to Commodore "vice versa " using the IBM Compatibles in my High School and bringing the IBM disks home to transfer my school work on a Commodore formatted disks to use in my C128 , The 1571 I.M.O. , is most versatile Disk Drive of the 1980s reading IBM CP/M and Commodore formats . not sure if there was any other versatile multiple format reading 5.25 Disk Drives like the 1571 ..
@David_Ladd
@David_Ladd Жыл бұрын
Adrian, Also don't forget there were 5.25" ED 2.4MB floppy drives as well. There were also 3.5" ED 2.88MB drives too. The 5.25" ED drives I could only find in IBM Workstations. Great video as always sir! :D
@Zellyn
@Zellyn Жыл бұрын
Just wanted to add another shout-out for John Morris' AppleSauce. Not only is the hardware really, really good, but John is also excellent at creating UI. Mac only, but beautiful!
@rpelzer
@rpelzer Жыл бұрын
As a former TRS-80 tech, I half expected you to start discussing soft-sectored (TRS-80) vs Hard-sectored (Apple) 5.25" floppies!
@theturtle32
@theturtle32 Жыл бұрын
Absolutely fantastic video! I deeply appreciate your attention to detail, along with how you distill the most important parts into easily understandable chunks, while touching on the edge cases so we know where to start investigating if they're relevant to our situation. Thanks as always for the love and care you put into the videos you make. I watch pretty much all of them, and yours is easily my favorite retro computing and electronics troubleshooting resource on KZfaq!
@BilisNegra
@BilisNegra Жыл бұрын
This video was so satisfyingly useful... The weirdest thing is that I don't own any vintage hardware with which I could actually make practical use of all that's been explained, but still feel it's very helpful. Am I out of my head?
@hardcore8uk
@hardcore8uk Жыл бұрын
Excellent 5.25" drive analysis Adrian, i started my entry into the world of disk drives started with the ZX Sprctrum +3 3" discs that i thought were very robust that i still have today working for both Spectrum & Amstrad CPC 128 8 bit computers, i then moved onto Atari STe with the double sided 3.5" , then in 1993 i built my very first IBM compatible PC- Intel 486 DX2 66Mhz, 4MB 30pin ram ( 2MB I removed out my 4MB STe , 1/ because it was an overkill amount on ST just to play games and 2/ save money for my new PC build as ram was quite expensive back then) 1MB VLB Trident video card, 80MB 3.5" HDD ( im sure it was a Conner branded drive) Sound Blaster Pro2, but by this time in 93 every software was being released on 3.5" media ( all the games and all the magazine cover discs in UK ) so i never owned a 5.25" drive or disks and never had the pleasure of using said drives n disks. About the speed of the drives, so a disk written at 250k can't be read back at twice the speed , is that correct?, I'm glad that's not the case with 3.5" drives, I have a USB SMARTDISK FDUSB-TM2 floppy drive that reads back at 2X speed, Also a Sony Mavica MVC FD200 Digital Camera USB that can read back at a blazing 4X speed that is an insane floppy transfer rate . I don't know if you've seen it but "CATHODE RAY DUDE " has a great video on drives that can read faster than 1X , it's tilted " READING FLOPPY DISKS ? GOTTA GO FASTER" , Check it out Adrian if you've never seen it, and once again many thanks for all your hard research and excellent video, have a great day buddy.!!!!!!
@IkeFoxbrush
@IkeFoxbrush Жыл бұрын
Great Video! When DiskImage reports a deleted sector, it probably refers to the sector data mark in the IBM track layout indicating that a sector has been deleted. Normally this data mark is 0xFB, but for deleted sectors is 0xF8. Presumably this allows to quickly delete (and restore) sectors or files on a floppy disk if the OS or software supports it.
@GYTCommnts
@GYTCommnts Жыл бұрын
This is an INCREDIBLE guide with lots of useful information. Thank you very much!
@michaelcross4112
@michaelcross4112 Жыл бұрын
Was sad he wasn't actually getting raw material and making disks, 3D printing plus plastic sheets and whatever they used for the magnetic part.
@computer_toucher
@computer_toucher Жыл бұрын
Fibre optics has had the same kinds of leaps in modulation technology as modems back in the day, by discovering techniques for multiplexing light in different frequencies. I think it's interesting that bandwidth is basically doubled with each leap in all areas. Like DDR RAM - DDR 4 has twice the bandwidth of DDR 3 and DDR 5 is twice that again. Same with PCI Express, etc etc etc. Maths and physics, man, it's incredible.
@ygstuff4898
@ygstuff4898 Жыл бұрын
This is a fantastic & educational video. Mandatory viewing for any & all retro-computing enthusiasts. I thought I new a lot about "classic computer" disk drives and such, but I learned so much and amazed with the new tools that are available. Another great ADB video! And wishes for a wonderful new year, Mr. Black.
@stevesmusic1862
@stevesmusic1862 Жыл бұрын
As always Adain, just fantastic! I would love to see the long version of you doing this, just like Tech Tangents does.
@ForgottenMachines
@ForgottenMachines Жыл бұрын
Once again, Adrian, you never cease to amaze with your videos! Awesome!!!! I've been a user of Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk for 7-8 years now...so it's perfect to see you using this tool in a dedicated workstation like this.
@mrlox9576
@mrlox9576 Жыл бұрын
Don't consider myself the sharpest tool in the shed. Yet the way you explained the disks made perfect sense. Just goes to show it's true that the teacher makes a major difference to the students ability to learn, even in my 40's. :) . Thanks Adrian.
@michaelhaardt5988
@michaelhaardt5988 Жыл бұрын
As one author of the floppy user guide I congratulate to the great presentation of this topic! I never heard about the 100 tpi format before, amazing. :) There is one thing you should mention for anybody who does not use this specific floppy controller: Various modern floppy disk controllers do not work with FM. The older, the more likely they are to work.
@InssiAjaton
@InssiAjaton Жыл бұрын
I have had my "play" with a few floppy drives. In fact, I still have one loose 8" drive, brand Siemens and one installed in a Bering har disk / floppy combo. I never have had the Siemens installed and running. The Bering unit floppy has 1.2 MB capacity and 5 MB hard disk, which I partitioned to 4 1.2 MB size units to support backing up each partition to a matching floppy. Oh yes, the system was used on a HP-87 computer, which also comprised of a dual 5.12" floppies, each track consisting 16 sectors of 256 bytes for a total disk capacity of 286,720 bytes. Organized on two sides, 35 tracks per side. Then I have 800 kB, 5.25" floppy disk(s) used on a ZCPR3 operating system by Richard Conn. Those were the days of dial-in bulletin boards. I also have blank disks, as well as full of data ones. 5.25 floppy drives in double and HD, and 3.5" unused Teac drives. I forget if they are HD or just double side. I used to buy my floppy disks in 100 quantities at a low price. Actually my first floppy disks were for playing after hours on TRS 80 computer the company bought for inventory control purposes. I got for it a Miller MicroSystems FORTH operating system that allowed me to study the ROM Basic. Sort of elementary reverse engineering. But more important, I wanted to gain and keep some sort of understanding of the FORTH language that our process controllers started using. And that brings me to two more 8" drives, part of the development system that was used for the first generation of our controllers. I eventually purchased that development system, figuring I might need to support the control systems for some time after our vendor gave up. Never actually needed, but as a result I still have the two included 8" drives. Thanks for educating and fun material!
@juliancassin7475
@juliancassin7475 Жыл бұрын
For us Amstrad users, 3 inch drives are mostly single sided and we flip the discs physically to use both sides. When we use 3.5" or 5.25" drives we either upgrade our ROMs to cater for 80 track drives or... put a side switch on the drive so we can use them as 2 single sides of discs. You can use your switches as a side switch so you can treat a disc with 2 single sides as such but also treat a double sided disc format as such. Some drives we can also put a 40 track/80 track switch, but a bit less common.
@ibazulic
@ibazulic Жыл бұрын
Fantastic video, Adrian. I knew some of these facts, but I didn't know the details. It is really awesome that floppies, in essence, haven't changed since the Shugart SA400 drive.
@bluehatguy4279
@bluehatguy4279 Жыл бұрын
In the past year, I put together a bare-metal DOS machine for old games. I went through a lot of HD floppy drives to get a pair that actually worked. For my personal collection, my drives are a 3-inch and a 5 inch. A have several containers of old floppies from my youth, and thankfully a vast majority of them have been completely readable. I haven't been reckless though, before I actually use the old installers on the disk, I use a DOS program called FIRM, to rip an image to a backup directory on my drive C. FIRM doesn't have the options of ImageDisk, but my needs are simple and are limited to DOS disks. Whenever I have a disk image that wasn't from a physical disk, I can skip the step of physical floppies with a DOS program called TurboImage, which simulates a drive and mounts it on a letter. I don't really have a pressing need to write the DD 5-inch disks, so I'm basically happy simply being able to read and rip them in the HD drive.
@jjock3239
@jjock3239 9 ай бұрын
Absolutely super video on disk formats. I wish you would have spent a little time on the Amiga Disk Format. Many years ago, I was able to adapt a couple of Dell double density drives to work as external drives. The information was published on one of the Amiga user group sites (no longer in existence) I still have the drives, and they both still work. Within the last year, I saw information online, that would allow a person to modify some specific IBM type 3 1/2 inch drives for the Amiga. I have found some of the right type of drives, now I will have to find the information to modify them to work.
@rpavlik1
@rpavlik1 Жыл бұрын
Wow, lots of good info! Adafruit managed to do a GreaseWeazle style thing on an Apple floppy drive about a year ago, which is an interesting wrinkle. Picked up a GreaseWeazle a few months ago, and subsequently realized I had no 5.25 inch PC drives... Hoping there's still one hidden in my parents' basement, I used to have so many, and a Pentium II with one installed in it for floppy transfer purposes....
@jonasrullo2590
@jonasrullo2590 Жыл бұрын
When did Stuart Cheifet grow a beard? The blur overlay is fantastic! Love your videos. Thanks so much for explaining the details so completely.
@exidy-yt
@exidy-yt Жыл бұрын
Great way to close out 2022 Adrian! Here's hoping for the best for you and your loved ones in 2023! Happy New Year!
@TheDefpom
@TheDefpom Жыл бұрын
I am impressed with your knowledge of the different drive systems and configurations... it certainly is complex, I am not a retro computer guy but watch your videos as I find it interesting non the less.
@rayek4eq
@rayek4eq Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this. This is heavily relevant to the next project, getting as many disk formats on one Pentium 4 machine as possible using a board from Tindie as a way to archive all the 5.25 shareware disks I have.
@ultrametric9317
@ultrametric9317 Жыл бұрын
Damn dude you are the world's foremost floppy guru! :) Thanks for the fun video! Love that DOS font! Like my old Tecra 8000! Windows 98 baby!
@ThaVoodoo1
@ThaVoodoo1 Жыл бұрын
Great Video Adrian !. The Amstrad CPC 664, 6128 and 464 "with the DDI-1 Interface" used the NEC765 floppy disc controller. This enabled you to choose FM or MFM recording modes. These computers used the 3" CF2 Compact Floppy Disc, made by AMSOFT, MAXELL & Schneider. The drive hardware was made by Hitachi, Matsushita, Maxell, Teac & Amstrad.
@stub1116
@stub1116 Жыл бұрын
That was a brilliant video. I did not realise this much information was used with "floppy drives". Well done.
@tony359
@tony359 Жыл бұрын
This needs to be watched twice as a minimum to absorb all the amazing info shared! Thank you!
@jaapverhoeven422
@jaapverhoeven422 Жыл бұрын
Very nice video! Do a second one with all the info left out from this one and this becomes a go-to reference series of videos on this subject.
@johnvaldez8830
@johnvaldez8830 Жыл бұрын
An amazing video once again. I think that a lot of folks may not have been aware of the differences that can exist even among the physical components of the drives shown. I've had my own adventures with putting a machine together only to find I need a software tool or different type of drive to get the data I wanted to use. A+
@williamsquires3070
@williamsquires3070 Жыл бұрын
Another thing to consider is whether the disk uses soft or hard sectors (given by the number of holes in the physical media) that pass under the hole in the sleeve (for 5-1/4” disks) where they’re picked up by an optical sensor on the drive. One type has only one hole, so if the disk spins at 300 RPM, the sensor will send 5 pulses per second (300 RPM / 60 sec/min). The other kind has multiple holes in the media, so the sensor will send way more pulses per second, for the same spindle speed (300 RPM.) 🤔
@MrTEP392
@MrTEP392 9 ай бұрын
Such a great and timely video! I'm working on an old Monroe OC8820 and need to create some disks for it from td0 files. This was a great help! This particular computer uses Micropolis single sided quad density drives. Luckily they are 96tpi.
@mllarson
@mllarson Жыл бұрын
Stellar work! I have come across some old computers and this guide will most likely help me.
@raypalmer7733
@raypalmer7733 Жыл бұрын
Fantastic video Adrian. A great deal of information for those with many drives and disks.
@honeymoonerfan91
@honeymoonerfan91 Жыл бұрын
Never thought floppy disks could be so interesting.
@minombredepila1580
@minombredepila1580 Жыл бұрын
Hi Adrian. Amazing video and highly instructive. Another one of your videos to keep track and use as documentation while recovering some of my FDDs. Thank you so much for this large amount of information !!!!
@henrikjohnsson3407
@henrikjohnsson3407 Жыл бұрын
Brought back memories of a misspent youth, part of my first job in '87 was to write MC6809 assembler code to convert all kinds of weird floppies back and forth. One physical property of the floppy that wasn't mentioned is the different magnetic coatings for DD/HD. This goes for both 3,5" and 5,25", some drives can be a bit sensitive about this. Also, if you're working with NEC PC98 stuff, most of their 5,25" and 3,5" drives run at 360 rpm. Early 90's I designed equipment that had to read/write PC98 disks and 3,5" drives running at 360 rpm was tricky to get hold of outside Japan. The PC98 drives followed the original formatting schemes proposed by IBM more closely than the drives in the IBM PC world ended up doing, IBM jumped through a few hoops to cram in a little extra data.
@michaelmiller641
@michaelmiller641 Жыл бұрын
Amazingly comprehensive video, Adrian, Thankyou
@donaldcongdon9095
@donaldcongdon9095 Жыл бұрын
Impressed, comprehensive, and extremely useful. Many thanks!
@null_carrier
@null_carrier Жыл бұрын
Excellent explanation. Thank you very much for the effort put into this comprehensive video.
@tommyovesen
@tommyovesen Жыл бұрын
Fantastic and detailed video Adrian. Happy new year!
@arbutuswatcher
@arbutuswatcher Жыл бұрын
I think we just experienced Adrian's Master Class on Floppy Drives... the abridged version. I'm going to be watching this a few more times! :)
@krzbrew
@krzbrew Жыл бұрын
I was in the process of thinning out my stack of 3,5" and 5,25" drives and was looking for some guide on what to leave and what to recycle. Thanks for directions, and Happy New Year!
@SteveKarpik
@SteveKarpik Жыл бұрын
Thanks Adrian. Terrific video I have been using computers all types since the 1970s. This was like a trip down memory lane. I had forgotten that all these things existed. Enjoyed it very much.
@zxrenew5642
@zxrenew5642 Жыл бұрын
Well, that brought back a lot of memories! Excellent stuff Sir!
@mertuckan
@mertuckan Жыл бұрын
when I read Creating Disks, I thought you would build a diskette from scratch. Printing out unfolded design of 5.25 and cutting disks out of a magnetic sheet kind of stuff. 😄
@nesfrk
@nesfrk Жыл бұрын
This is one of the best videos you have made, very useful and good information. Thank you!
@olepigeon
@olepigeon Жыл бұрын
If you work with Macintosh disks, there's also the AppleSauce Floppy Disk Controller. It interfaces directly with a variable speed Macintosh floppy drive, enabling you to easily read and write Macintosh floppy disks. In addition to Macintosh floppy drives, it will also interface with Apple II and standard PC floppy drives, making it the only headache-free archival option for macOS for working with nearly any format.
@agranero6
@agranero6 Жыл бұрын
This was exceptional: detailed, comprehensive and interesting.
@AaronNewcomb
@AaronNewcomb Жыл бұрын
I just noticed at 29:30 you say "drive select 1", but hold up 2 fingers. Made me smile.
@Okurka.
@Okurka. Жыл бұрын
The second finger was a middle finger to you.
@AerikForager
@AerikForager Жыл бұрын
This is an amazing resource! Thank you for all your hard work! :)
@McTroyd
@McTroyd Жыл бұрын
Most excellent Adrian. 👍 I wish I had this video 20+ years ago when I first started figuring out disk drives. 😅 This will no doubt be useful as we go through and attempt recovery of our old floppies. Thanks!
@rodhester2166
@rodhester2166 Жыл бұрын
Happy New Year. What a great video. The build is awesome .
@David-gr8rh
@David-gr8rh Жыл бұрын
Happy new year thank you for another year of great videos and more to come.
@saifal-badri
@saifal-badri Жыл бұрын
This is a very valuable video, we appreciate your hard work making these 😊
@SteveMaves
@SteveMaves Жыл бұрын
Excellent job teaching in this video, Adrian, thank you for this! I just learned about the HxC Floppy Emulator software you’ve shown a couple months back and it’s changed my workflow for making disks. I can download almost any disk image from the Internet, export it as a Flux image and write it out using a Flux Imager (and the appropriate drive as you have outlined) from my modern PC. I’m sure Kryoflux and Greaseweasel are amazing, but I’m using the SuperCard Pro and have had good success including writing out GCR content like Amiga floppies.
@RudysRetroIntel
@RudysRetroIntel Жыл бұрын
Amazing!! Thanks, for sharing and great timing. I'm making diskettes for my Kaypro II. Saved this video to watch again soon.
@christopherbaar4498
@christopherbaar4498 Жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Lots of important information that’s needed that will handle most disks out there. I didn’t even know about 100 TPI drives before today. I would love one of those Texelec controllers once they come out. I just need to figure out how to store disks so they don’t degrade in the south Florida humidity. A couple of points some might be interested in. With the 5.25 HD 96 TPI disks, they are commonly used in some of the Japanese computers that are not PC compatible, like the NEC PC-98 (which does run MS-DOS) or the Sharp X68000. Another quirk of Japanese computers is the mode 3 3.5 disks, which are 3.5 HD floppies written at 360 RPM with only 1.2 MB of formatted storage. Again the PC-98 or X68000 3.5 inch drives use this, as does the FM Towns, which only supports 3.5 inch disks along with the built in CD-ROM. Not sure why the Japanese computers have such a strange format, but they do. These disks can be written on a PC with a special 3 mode 3.5 inch drive, and BIOS support. If you ever wondered what did the BIOS option for 3 mode floppy was, that was it.
@LunarJim69
@LunarJim69 Жыл бұрын
Happy New Year Adrian. Hope you have a great 2023 and keep the videos coming. Thanks.
@mattsword41
@mattsword41 Жыл бұрын
This is such a great video! one basic, very handy way around the floppy issue is using serial and xtide and booting from "floppy" as an image streamed across serial from a host pc or copying files off the image. (obvs PC only!)
@bubullenoiraude
@bubullenoiraude Жыл бұрын
There was also hard sectored floppy disks which distinctively had additional holes along the inner circle to provide the synchronization for sector placement.
MFM drives are really unreliable
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