Aerodynamic drag and lift of different car body shapes

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Julian Edgar

Julian Edgar

3 жыл бұрын

Which has highest aerodynamic lift and drag - squarebacks, notchbacks or fastbacks? Find out in this video! Read the full paper here: www.mdpi.com/2311-5521/5/4/23... Note that my most recent aero book (replacing the one shown in this video) can be found here - www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Aerody... or Amazon in your country.

Пікірлер: 459
@Tarex_
@Tarex_ 3 жыл бұрын
The fastback having the highest lift reminds or brings back the Audi TT that had to get the spoiler lip because of how unstable it was
@anidiotinaracingcar4874
@anidiotinaracingcar4874 2 жыл бұрын
The Audi TT is basically an airplane wing. Had it had a decent engine, it would have taken off
@Tarex_
@Tarex_ 2 жыл бұрын
@@anidiotinaracingcar4874 we would've had mainstream flying cars sooner if it had a better engine xD the R36 wouldve been better suited than the the 1.8 Turbo xD
@anidiotinaracingcar4874
@anidiotinaracingcar4874 2 жыл бұрын
@@Tarex_ Hahaha. The first flying cars I can remember were GT1s (The 911 and CLR)
@Tarex_
@Tarex_ 2 жыл бұрын
@@anidiotinaracingcar4874 sadly investments went towards keeping them on the ground instead of using ground effects to hover
@henningwilhelmi
@henningwilhelmi 2 жыл бұрын
If I remember correctly the problem was a bit more complicated and related to shear flows within the region during conering that finally lead to separation at higher velocities.
@DanielinLaTuna
@DanielinLaTuna 2 жыл бұрын
The Volkswagen Bug (or Beetle) was scary to drive at high speeds for various reasons, but one of them was how light the car became at those speeds; this demonstration explains the lift it’s body shape provided.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, high lift shape indeed
@thebrowns5337
@thebrowns5337 7 ай бұрын
Thankfully the engine hanging onto the back of the chassis kept it down though.
@quentagonthornton49
@quentagonthornton49 7 ай бұрын
@@thebrowns5337 The engine being at the back is worse than having it at the front as it will pitch up the car, increasing the amount of lift it produces, at least until an aerodynamic stall, but that is a huge number of degrees for a car to pitch up and the front wheels would be well of the ground at that point.
@cdw3423
@cdw3423 7 ай бұрын
I'm not sure VW Bug and "high speed" should ever be in the same sentence. :)
@tommybronze3451
@tommybronze3451 7 ай бұрын
I though that most scary thing about driving VW Beatle was that if indicators failed (and they did a lot) you would have to indicate turning by essentially saluting through the window 😆
@Tore_Lund
@Tore_Lund 2 жыл бұрын
One winter night 15 years ago, when it was snowing and the conditions just right with the wind blowing steady along the travel direction of the parked cars in my street. There was one car, a hatchback (square back), which collected snow on the rear hatch in the wake zone, where the snow was capable of sticking. It formed a perfect boat tail: slightly curved sloping extension of the roofline, 10-15 degrees, as science tells us and the sides sloping similarly but at a somewhat steeper angle. What surprised me was that the edge between the sloping sides and roof line buildup, was a sharp perfect 90 degree edge. This must mean that the air from the sides and the roof stayed attached and didn't mix, i.e. no turbulence sideways across the snow cone! So it was a shame I didn't photograph it, but this is an example of real life simulation not based on moddeling. And thank you, your channel is brilliant. Nb.: the sloping sides of the snow cone met in the middle forming a sharp stump vertical edge there, so the buildup overall ressembled the stern of a round bottomed wooden boat.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting. If the airflow had wrapped from the sides onto the top of the extended tail there would have been lift and so drag.
@Tore_Lund
@Tore_Lund 2 жыл бұрын
@@JulianEdgar Yes it is interesting as usually people who refit boattails to their cars, round the edges at the corners, at an increasing radii to approach a circular cross section at the far end. Guess Mercedes figured it out too with their boxfish bodyshape, which had the roof edges extend all the way without rounding. I presume the snow was slightly warmer than the air at ground level, so the flakes were sticky, but refroze once they settled. It would have been an incremental process also, as the snow at first had few places without fast air to settle, but as the buildup progressed, it gradually improved aerodynamics and extended the attached flow, giving room for the cone growing lenghtwise.
@jwalker7567
@jwalker7567 11 ай бұрын
My ford fiesta once was covered in about 2 inches of snow, I left it there as I drove on the highway for 3 hours for my journey at night, when I arrived I was amazed most of the snow was still there. Interestingly the leading edge of the hood and the roof were down to ice, yet they both mounded in the middle. I also noticed how they had random wavy patterns in the snow and it was no longer uniform (similar to the sand on beach after the tide goes out). I logged the MPG figure for the journey as it was the same journey each week and unsurprisingly it dropped from what would normally be about 45mpg to 41mpg. There was no snow on the roads and it didn't snow during the journey, so this was likely purely due to the snow on the vehicle.
@Tore_Lund
@Tore_Lund 11 ай бұрын
@@jwalker7567 I think we are onto something: Sticky substance natural forming aerodynamic fairings.
@brokenrecord3523
@brokenrecord3523 6 ай бұрын
Check out the back of a Honda insight, especially the older ones with the narrow rear footprint.
@Rob-tn8to
@Rob-tn8to 6 ай бұрын
I ride a motorcycle and am always amazed at how various vehicles create turbulence as I follow behind. It is not necessarily what one would expect. For example, smaller vehicles such as a Rav4 create quite a bit of turbulence as a result of the square back even though it is not large. A larger SUV with a rounded back is sometimes less turbulent. Many cars can't be felt at all.
@ProrokC2
@ProrokC2 6 ай бұрын
You saying that RAV4 is a smaller car tells me you are an American
@Rob-tn8to
@Rob-tn8to 6 ай бұрын
@ProrokC2 ​Close, Canadian, but we drive the exact same vehicles as Americans. Yes, a Rav4 is small here. A Nissan Pathfinder would be medium and GMC Yukon would be large. Also, more than half the people where I live drive large trucks. It is kind of ridiculous.
@ProrokC2
@ProrokC2 6 ай бұрын
@@Rob-tn8to Interesting, here in europe a RAV4 is a large car, something like a corolla is considered medium, and small is something like yaris/aygo. Even right now I'm looking at buying a Fiat Tipo (1.6 diesel, automatic transmission - not so easy to get around here) and it's a medium size car. Most people here drive compacts like peugot 308 or medium sized peugot 508, skoda octavia, vw passat etc, and them all mostly station wagons, but hatchbacks are popular as well. Interesting point of view. Come over here to europe, I fell as you'd get a small culture shock :). But something like GMC Yukon is absolutely ridiculous, it won't fit anywhere in european cities, literally not even at a shopping mall, not to even mention underground parking etc. Why would anyone need such a huge car?
@richardk29
@richardk29 2 жыл бұрын
And that is why lots of sleek FWD cars still have rear spoilers! Another great video, thanks!
@jmi5969
@jmi5969 7 ай бұрын
They have space to place them to begin with... a boxy hatch or minivan doesn't.
@julianbrelsford
@julianbrelsford 7 ай бұрын
​@@jmi5969I've seen some US market minivans with a spoiler-like thing. Basically extends the high roof another 5 or so inches, possibly with a gap where some air can flow directly down against the rear window. Dodge Magnum station wagon (sometimes at least) came with a similar thing.
@darkrulier
@darkrulier 6 ай бұрын
My Subaru Forester has that as well. I always thought it was for looks.
@NikolaTesla-nb5nm
@NikolaTesla-nb5nm 6 ай бұрын
yes, FWDs have terrible handling
@rainretribute9852
@rainretribute9852 Ай бұрын
​@@NikolaTesla-nb5nmwrong. Don't speak if you don't know
@alexandervanwyk7669
@alexandervanwyk7669 7 ай бұрын
Still fascinating, from a retired engineer, spending my life in a wind tunnel. It will be awesome if you can present a series of basic tutorials (again) for us car enthusiasts. My first car was a 1930 Chevrolet. This car had almost zero drag but then it also had very little speed. (Pun intended) My latest car is a Porsche. With speed, aerodynamics became really an important issue also as it directly affect fuel economy. So referring to basics explain again the basic shapes, ie a square compared to an aerofoil shape has almost 25 times higher drag for the same projected area. The exponential phenomenon of drag vs speed. Tyre width and tyre pressures. Open windows vs closed etc. Basic practical principles that already assist in saving money before vast monies are being spent on attachments. As it is still a specialized subject with lots of 'confidential' results, it will just be great if you provide basics for the next generation. Thanks for your dedication and passioin. Love from Africa.
@Aengus42
@Aengus42 Жыл бұрын
Reminds me of when Volvo wanted to get into Touring Car Racing and before they built something slippery to get into the series quickly (you had to have a certain number of production cars before you could race that type) they went through their entire fleet to find the car with the best aerodynamics. Which is why, in all it's glory, the Volvo 850 Estate appeared on the starting grid in 1995 (with a production Cd of 0.32 I think). That has a lot to do with my Toyota Corolla Hybrid Estate outside!
@K03sport
@K03sport Жыл бұрын
loved the 850R platform. not to mention, the wagon ethos stayed true to Volvo and it got noticed (a lot) I regret never buying an 850R...of course now, they are super difficult to find (in good condition)
@Aengus42
@Aengus42 Жыл бұрын
@@K03sport I loved my Volvo. I was offered a 240 automatic saloon (sedan) for £100 because my aunt had decided to stop driving. It was slow but with two young kids it was perfect for us. A huge amount of room, massive boot (trunk) built like a tank! It felt like driving a boat, mind you. But it never let us down and we went all over the place in it.
@K03sport
@K03sport Жыл бұрын
@@Aengus42...strange...had a (hand me down) '80 240 (244) GL non-turbo in 90-91 w/crank sunroof and automatic. only problem was the throttle and trans kick down. when pressing the go pedal, there would be no acceleration and no kick down for a lengthy 5+ seconds. and the issue was intermittent so you never knew when it was going to fall on its face. a friend in high school had the exact same car/color, but hers was a manual
@Aengus42
@Aengus42 Жыл бұрын
@@K03sport Mine would make all the right noises. I'd hit the throttle, the revs would climb and make a helluva noise! But absolutely zero acceleration! Nothing! Edit: On the motorway. Doing a steady 75. The kids would yell "Warpdrive in three! One, two, WARP!" I'd hit the throttle, you could hear Warpdrive engaging but absolutely nothing happened to the speed and we'd all collapse into giggles 😆
@jakecole7447
@jakecole7447 6 ай бұрын
Worked for Toyota as a Technician - Good choice in that car ! Havent seen anything major break there yet. super reliable, nice drivability (Pulls no corvettes but so much better than previous generations hybrid) great looks and i've had customer cars that got 60 Miles per Gallon in mixed traffic (Europe).
@qx4n9e1xp
@qx4n9e1xp 6 ай бұрын
Please do a video showcasing the various types of wings/spoilers affecting lift & drag. I want to fit a spoiler on my notchback vehicle for cosmetic purposes, but I'm interested in seeing the airflow effects. Thanks again!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
Yes I can do that
@rohesilmnelohe
@rohesilmnelohe 6 ай бұрын
I have '15 Corolla sedan. The flow separation on back widow in the centerline is a thing. Very well seen during winter when it is the only place where snow wants to stay. However the airflow reattaches itself really fast from the sides. Only place where snow accumulates and stays is top center of the back window and bottom edge of rear hatch. I'd say it is really well designed.
@Chris.Davies
@Chris.Davies 7 ай бұрын
I am very lucky to own a 1997 Tommy kaira M20b wagon, with a custom made TK roof spoiler, which was experimentally set for minimum drag in the wind tunnel. The custom TK parts all have little metal plates with the TK signature on them. Tommy Kaira were engineers before all else, and they recognised the frailty of the Subaru 5-speed box in the JDM WRX the car is based on, and so they created two massive braces which go straight through the 'box hold it together, preventing it performing a RUD (Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly) at high boost and high RPMs. :)
@xXZ31t6esTXx
@xXZ31t6esTXx 3 жыл бұрын
Can you please make a video about the airflow around the tires? I see different ways in which manufacturers try to deflect the air before the tire
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
It's a really tricky area with quite lot of contradictory information. I'll think about how to best cover it.
@gregorykusiak5424
@gregorykusiak5424 3 жыл бұрын
Fantastic! Wonderful find - thank you for sharing! Nice to finally see someone has confirmed with research what I’ve understood from driving my squareback: when I’m driving and have a significant enough wind to fill the wake from behind, in the same direction I’m travelling (a tailwind or rear quartering crosswind), my fuel economy improves (not insignificantly). So now, it seems I have to get the air from over the roof and underneath the car into the wake sooner to reduce it, and hopefully drag along with it. I’m going to make an educated (from this channel’s videos) guess that it will take an undertray with a rather serious rear diffuser bringing the air from underneath upwards, as well as a roof extension lip curved downwards towards the road to fill in the wake area.
@pedrobrito8080
@pedrobrito8080 3 жыл бұрын
Nice. Good work.
@brianvanwyk9878
@brianvanwyk9878 Жыл бұрын
Did you make the undertray and diffuser? If so, what was the outcome? When you designed the diffuser, did you keep in mind that the wake is a 3D shape? If yes, how does the diffuser look like and did it make an impact?
@gregorykusiak5424
@gregorykusiak5424 Жыл бұрын
@@brianvanwyk9878 I only did an undertray as far as the rear axle- a diffuser was more complex from a design/implementation aspect due to exhaust and suspension issues. But just that on my SUV made for a quieter ride and made highway cruising much smoother and slightly (maybe 1-2mpg) more efficient.
@CannonballCircuit
@CannonballCircuit Жыл бұрын
could you also add a vortex generator on your roof?
@gregorykusiak5424
@gregorykusiak5424 Жыл бұрын
@@CannonballCircuit a roof extension is a better way to go I think- the air from over the roof needs to meet back up with what’s flowing underneath to minimize the wake by filling it up.
@craigchamberlain
@craigchamberlain 6 ай бұрын
Really interesting video - thank you!
@stefanomarchi3542
@stefanomarchi3542 7 ай бұрын
This video is pure gold! Thanks a lot
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Glad it was helpful!
@jooky87
@jooky87 2 жыл бұрын
Awesome, thank you for your enthusiasm, too makes it more interesting. I’m wondering if a spoiler like a ducktail or those small wing tails actually make a difference too.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
They certainly can, depending on the car. For example, see kzfaq.info/get/bejne/h92De9Jpuraoo4U.html
@Crysmatic
@Crysmatic 10 ай бұрын
Makes sense why Germans love their fast station wagons :) I see that bubble on my notchback every winter. Snow just sits in the bubble and doesn't get cleared away.
@daszieher
@daszieher 7 ай бұрын
The worse drag is just compensated by more power. Enter RS6
@334trax2
@334trax2 3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting my hatchback "square back" has less lift. It never feels like it is light or floating at high speeds, that is suspension also.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
Yes, I learned a lot too!
@tigerseye73
@tigerseye73 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Julian: If you could break this down into a tiny nutshell, which shape would yield the highest MPG at 100 km/h? I always assumed the fastback/kamback shape was lowest drag overall. Your channel is much appreciated.
@narancs5
@narancs5 Жыл бұрын
Lowest drag = highest MPG
@OgamiItto70
@OgamiItto70 Жыл бұрын
The lowest drag overall (for the same volume enclosed) is a teardrop shape. The "fastback" or "Kamm tail" is used on cars to reduce their size and/or weight and/or cost to manufacture, as well as making them more practical for use on public roads, parking lots, garages, in traffic. Wunibald Kamm, an aerodynamicist, discovered that _most_ of the aerodynamic benefit in reduced drag of a teardrop shape could be enjoyed even if the shape was "chopped off" at the rear at a point where the cross-section area was 50% of the cross-section area of the widest part of the teardrop. The Kamm tail's "missing" area also contributed to a reduction in (but not elimination of) aerodynamic lift generated by the long sloping profile of the back part of the teardrop shape.
@marielizysurourcq
@marielizysurourcq 6 ай бұрын
@@OgamiItto70 I checked and it's all true. I just add that this low effect of chopping there in terms of drag is that there is a vortex at the rear that mimics a solid shape, i.e most of the flow does not enter this region. In terms of lift, it's lowering at the rear, so all good.
@elionh4532
@elionh4532 6 ай бұрын
Notchback is 0.5 liter per 100 km less fuel consumption in comparison to squareback
@cenkaetaya
@cenkaetaya 3 жыл бұрын
How would this work on a large car like a 2008-2015 Nissan Armada. I have the running boards removed (the side steps) so the vehicle is very tall. I was wondering if covering the floor could help highway MPG, and I was also just wondering about the roof rack on it and if you had any opinions. The front hood does have one of those wings at the front tip. The car gets decent gas mileage going 70mph but once you hit 80+ it really takes a hit from wind efficiency. I was hoping I could get it to cruise at 80 with less force.
@Person-cv9dj
@Person-cv9dj 2 жыл бұрын
Very interesting. Thank you for this very informative video!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@m_a_t_t6098
@m_a_t_t6098 3 жыл бұрын
If the front of the car is the same what makes the Clf so different between configurations? Is it because of the lift occurring behind the rear wheels and leveraging the front up (or down)?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
Yes I would think so. The pressure diagrams show that the pressures are certainly acting behind the rear axle line.
@cnclathe21
@cnclathe21 Жыл бұрын
Julian please help me... I got a Suzuki Ignis 2004 MH a quite blocke body shame of car... If I abb the factory rear spoiler will it help with the fuel efficiency any? I know it will give an extra downforce on the rear wheels but will it also help by redirecting the air with the fuel efficiency or will it a drag? thanks a lot
@elninogambino8413
@elninogambino8413 Жыл бұрын
Hi there,quick question I have a 1997 blazer drag/street project and was wondering if adding a rear spoiler would increase her aerodynamics overall?
@pjnelson8971
@pjnelson8971 8 ай бұрын
Not a spoiler that lifts up into the airstream. You'd want to use a big drag style spoiler that extends straight off the back of the body.
@timothymoroney3561
@timothymoroney3561 7 ай бұрын
It would be interesting to see this study for semi-trucks, pickups & the Aptera !
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
The Aptera doesn’t exist except as a prototype. The other vehicles are covered in my latest book - check Amazon.
@ChristianBorrman
@ChristianBorrman 2 жыл бұрын
apart from being a brickwall; have you seen anything on the the 4x4 model, like the landrover, g-wagon, etc?
@dirtyharry4795
@dirtyharry4795 3 жыл бұрын
Being the front part of the model the same, why is the Squareback Clf so different to the other two? I don't understand it?
@roscius6204
@roscius6204 7 ай бұрын
I have an A6 Avant (so a Sqaureback) It's stability at high speed (tops out at 250 kph) is amazing. Just planted. I've had other wagons and always suspected this. Conversely an RX2 I had in my youth was like piloting a skimming stone
@spottersworld3135
@spottersworld3135 7 ай бұрын
I had a b7 RS4 avant and a series 1 RX2 sedan in my youth and had exactly the same experience
@arrindaley3714
@arrindaley3714 3 жыл бұрын
Am I correct to think that there are no separation edges on particularly the squareback model? If there were, the offset airflow diagram might suggest they aren't that effective, 19cm is not far offset from the centre line. Interesting that the slow moving air seems to extend further out to the sides and low down on the notch and fast backs compared to the squareback.
@arrindaley3714
@arrindaley3714 3 жыл бұрын
Sorry I was forgetting it was a 1/4 scale, so closer to 76cm at full scale which makes it more like I'd expect...
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
I don't have detailed pics of the rear of each model, only those pics in the video. However, all the shapes look like they have side separation edges on the lower half. I don't think the pressure/flow measurements would show the effect of these edges as my measurements show that sep edges act on a very small areas, and these areas aren't really covered in the shown model measurements.
@jzxtrd337
@jzxtrd337 6 ай бұрын
The Julian Edgar, 21 century performance was a stellar book mate
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
Thank you.
@shannonpotts8563
@shannonpotts8563 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Julian, Is there a "spoiler" to reduce the centerline low pressure effect? Also good to see this from your Zoom days
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
Yes a rear spoiler will increase rear centreline pressures.
@jonniejlo
@jonniejlo 3 жыл бұрын
Great knowledge! It would be awesome to know your thoughts/experience regarding momentum injection into the wake. Something I often ponder :)
@lindsayoosterwaal6338
@lindsayoosterwaal6338 2 жыл бұрын
Great video. I have a flat bottom drag car that travels over 300km/h. Would ducting from front floor to the tail lights reduce pressure under the car and reduce drag at the rear? Thanks for the great vid
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
No it wouldn't, to both questions.
@sealpiercing8476
@sealpiercing8476 Жыл бұрын
Sounds like you might as well use at least a fastback shape, and a squareback really only adds a tiny bit of drag, but both of those have much more payload volume in back. Notchback looks aero but isn't any better than fastback.
@poptartmcjelly7054
@poptartmcjelly7054 7 ай бұрын
The SAAB NG900 had to get the small spoiler added because of stability issues at speeds above 170kph.
@FairladyS130
@FairladyS130 7 ай бұрын
Looks like both the fast and notch backs would benefit significantly from a modest bob tail spoiler. Likely to bring them up to square back figures I wonder.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Yes
@racketman2u
@racketman2u 7 ай бұрын
This reminds me of a photo I saw of a Datsun 240Z at speed, lifted right up on its suspension; no wonder mine felt much better once I added the rear bobtail and front airdam! It actually increased its top speed by about 15km/h too, so the drag must have dropped.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
These days, you'd gain vastly better results with a full length undertray and no front spoiler.
@Veikra
@Veikra 5 ай бұрын
The notchback is the winner overall. The higher front lift counterbalance the rear lift and makes it stable at high speed
@brianvanwyk9878
@brianvanwyk9878 Жыл бұрын
Question: around 7:48’ish, you mention the drag / wake shape is 3D not 2D. Should not the diffuser then be designed / shaped to take this into account and thereby maximise the impact of the diffuser? Or am I just totally ignorant with the relationship between the wake pressures in vehicles with diffusers vs no diffusers…
@rogerking7258
@rogerking7258 7 ай бұрын
This is really interesting, although these figures can only be generic because of the significant detail differences between different vehicles. It would have been interesting to see figs for a true Kamm tail as well. And what I would _really_ like to see would be CD figures for the sleek E-type jag and the extremely boxy Austin A40 Farina. Rumour has it that the A40 is actually slipperier.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
There’s no magic in a Kamm tail. You’d be interested in my book on the history of car aerodynamics - www.amazon.com/Century-Car-Aerodynamics-science-airflow/dp/B095RLP52B or Amazon in your country.
@roadwarriors9094
@roadwarriors9094 3 жыл бұрын
Have any information on pickup truck aero? Interested in the effectiveness of cab spoilers and tail gate spoilers.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
Easy enough to measure for yourself.
@roadwarriors9094
@roadwarriors9094 3 жыл бұрын
@@JulianEdgar perhaps for you it is haha
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
@@roadwarriors9094 No, easy for anyone. All covered in my books.
@roadwarriors9094
@roadwarriors9094 3 жыл бұрын
@@JulianEdgar oh! So you do, in fact, have information specific to pickups in your book! Excellent!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
@@roadwarriors9094 The aero testing techniques can be applied to any vehicle. Doesn’t matter what it is.
@K03sport
@K03sport Жыл бұрын
what I learned - wagons (hatchback) rule; other cars can drool (oh snap, Prius be damned) And it looks like my '19 WRX is hamstrung from the get go, not only being a Subaru, but also being a notchback (w/a trunk or boot). Might need to add one of those gurney flaps to the low profile trunk lip spoiler to push that air higher off the back of the trunk (as I do not have the big STI wing). Wonder if those vortex generators will reduce that high pressure on the rear glass area?
@tomwocjik8925
@tomwocjik8925 Жыл бұрын
I have a question and would really appreciate if anyone knows the answer. Whats the best car body shape to carry pushbikes mounted on towbar(behind the car) most efficiently? Any help much obliged!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar Жыл бұрын
My guess would be a wagon / squareback that has a low drag coefficient.
@jamesmedina2062
@jamesmedina2062 7 ай бұрын
On a 2017 Civic what would overall effect on Cd be with using panels to create a flatter floor in rear 1/3? The factory mufflers were removed and now I fear that the rear bumper acts as a parachute. The front 2/3 of car already has flat floor coverings.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
I don’t guess - I test.
@zeroelus
@zeroelus 7 ай бұрын
Stumbling on this video years after it came out, but it's nice to see data that matches what I see in real life. Having an extreme squareback (minivan) it just confirms my suspicions as to what I've seen when driving: I've seen leaves picked up from the road just move around horizontally in the rear glass and just stay there floating, and living in the dusty desert, the rear hatch of the car is always covered in dust/sand, no matter how often I wash or what wax products I use, I can mitigate it but I've resigned myself to always have some dust collecting there. My other car (a wagon, Subaru Outback specifically) also see this but to a different degree: Years of being exposed to this same dusty environment and about an inch long lip on the rear hatch near where the rear wiper is now at this point sans clear coat, no matter my efforts at trying different coatings.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
My latest book has some material on reducing rear soiling on squareback vehicles - www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Aerodynamics-Modification-Development-alternative/dp/B0C87VYVL8
@Vlasko60
@Vlasko60 Жыл бұрын
Does that mean that the squareback is the safest as in most contact with the road?
@Veikra
@Veikra 5 ай бұрын
I found my book suggestion for this christmas :)
@michaelbuckers
@michaelbuckers 11 ай бұрын
Cool to see that hot hatch is actually the best body type aero-wise, it generates a bit of downforce without any additional aero.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 11 ай бұрын
Generally the case, but not all hatches develop downforce. See Appendix 3 in my new book - lnkd.in/g88vC8qj
@michaelbuckers
@michaelbuckers 11 ай бұрын
@@JulianEdgar Well a car can only really approximate 3 shapes: a brick, a wedge and a wing. Making the tail end smoother makes hatchbacks' wedge shape closer to a wing shape. And car's angle of attack cannot be made zero or negative because that requires free flowing air under the body, same as over the roof.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 11 ай бұрын
With all respect, I strongly suggest that you buy my book and read about lift/downforce. Your mental model is way over-simplified eg in your model, how can a fastback-shaped car develop downforce? Because it can (even without an added wing). And as I already said, plenty of "brick shaped" vehicles develop lift, especially on the front axle.
@michaelbuckers
@michaelbuckers 11 ай бұрын
@@JulianEdgar I know it's oversimplified, mainly in "all else equal" department which is never the case. It's just a youtube comment.
@GeorgeTsiros
@GeorgeTsiros 8 ай бұрын
brother, are you _certain_ you got your colors right, warm/cold _ red/blue?
@mac4060
@mac4060 3 жыл бұрын
hi, im just a normal human from the street so i don't really understand the theoretical stuff. could you please tell me in few words if it's recommended to install the Backspoiler (hard-plastic fixed with screws) on my Palio 1.8r or no? :( the original Fiat Palio 1.8r 2008 has the spoiler yes but i would like to know if its recommended to have this spoiler or no
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
Yes, recommended.
@mac4060
@mac4060 3 жыл бұрын
@@JulianEdgar THANK YOU for your response. So if you say that it's recommended i have an adicional question: I don't know if you have seen the picture of this car in the internet but in case of my car the spoiler is just fixed with 2 or 4 screws(original) is that influencing something? i am not sure if back-spoilers of usual cars are just made for the beauty or its calculated Aerodynamic?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
I looked at some pics before I answered your question. The standard spoiler on your car will reduce drag. It won't need many screws to attach it.
@op3l
@op3l 7 ай бұрын
I drive a van with basically a 90 degree tail. Any amount of moisture or dust, and the back is covered in crud due to aerodynamics.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
It's a topic I cover in my latest book - and how to stop it happening. www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Aerodynamics-Modification-Development-alternative/dp/B0C87VYVL8
@nunyabidniz2868
@nunyabidniz2868 7 ай бұрын
Would love to see visual representation of how adding some vortex generators across the roof affect the lift and the blue bubbles behind the body shapes.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Vortex generators don't work as you seem to think they would do: neither lift nor the wake behind the car is likely to be impacted by vortex generators on the roof of these shapes.
@jimspc07
@jimspc07 7 ай бұрын
I would like to have seen the Kram theory rear used also. The hollowed out rear seems to have the reported push in real life. A good example of this is the Chrysler Australia Charger, it was a fast back with a Kram theory shape below the boot lit. When these cars were used in outback Australia they got lots of dust embedded in the hollow of the rear end in the dry and a mud coating when it was wet.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Do you mean Kamm?
@rifleman7313
@rifleman7313 Жыл бұрын
After watching some more of your videos regarding vehicle aero you talked about your Honda Insight (I think was the model). That you did some aero modifications to had a spoiler or whatever you called it. How would someone know how to add or modify a spoiler (size, angle, location, etc.to actually be beneficial and not just add drag and hurt performance? Thanks
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar Жыл бұрын
By testing.
@BenKlassen1
@BenKlassen1 7 ай бұрын
great!
@fredrickmillstead2804
@fredrickmillstead2804 4 ай бұрын
Wish I could see a presentation from above the 3 vehicles, that would prove interesting
@Joerg1One
@Joerg1One 6 ай бұрын
Thanks for your explanations. Drag and lift is a very very interesting topic. I have seen a lot of conclusions in the comments in regarding to stability. But I would say, the stability difference between the body shapes are very low in modern cars. More important for non track used cars are the speed of air flow, because of effiency. Thats why sportback shapes are faster in accelaration, espacially at higher speed, producing higher top speed and less fuel consumption. You can really good obeserve that at the German Autobahn. Anyway, I would love to see the effects of rear and front spoilers in regarding of different body shapes. Thank you in advanced!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
Stability is actually very important, and varies a lot between different current cars!
@burntpancake7132
@burntpancake7132 7 ай бұрын
nice video!!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@antoniopateas6839
@antoniopateas6839 3 жыл бұрын
Very nice video... I have watched many of them... Ok with the hatchbacks... What about the coupés and the Roadsters?? I have a BMW Z3 Roadster Cd:0.42... Roof down 0.55... What could i do to improve these numbers?? Should i use a flat bottom??
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
Yes
@rotorblade9508
@rotorblade9508 2 жыл бұрын
I think lowering the suspension also a bit should work. Anyway the .42 although it’s high the drag area is small which more than compensates for the high cd. Sports cars usually have higher cd even without spoilers but very small drag area
@gibson2623
@gibson2623 6 ай бұрын
R H BArnard was my teacher at Uni :)
@mr.wizeguy8995
@mr.wizeguy8995 6 ай бұрын
We have 2 different car roughly similar size is it possible that car 0,3 drag coefficient and car 0,23 that car with higher drag coefficient number have still better efficiency if body type in those are different. Or is it always lowest number win?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
Lowest number wins, at least for aero.
@HanYou2
@HanYou2 7 ай бұрын
Very interesting, I wonder what effect 2 ducts from the rear wheel arches (or some area with known high pressure) to the back of the car would have, would they help equalize the pressure in the back and lower cod? Similar to a very aggressive rear diffuser but trying to keep the shape of the car, to preserve the practicality
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
1) There will not be sufficient airflow through the ducts to make any measurable difference to drag. 2) An aggressive rear diffuser creates lots of drag.
@milis4932
@milis4932 7 ай бұрын
Hi Julian,great video!how about the aerodynamic at bed on the pick up trucks with or without roll top cover on it?ive not find any video about it,also the sunroof,widly open or shark open?thanks for this awesome knowledge!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Yes, covered in my latest book - www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Aerodynamics-Modification-Development-alternative/dp/B0C87VYVL8
@rodin4429
@rodin4429 7 ай бұрын
Interesting video YT threw at me. I ride a motorbike and when on the motorway, some cars create the most awful turbulance i just can't figure how modern cars would be so bad. So I was curious to see what this video revealed. To be fair, the distance I travel behind other vehicles means this video doesn't quite cover my query, but it remains interesting. What i have leant in general is that on the motorway, estate cars seem better, with a cleaner, less turbulant wake. But it's not obvious, as some slippery looking cars generate awful wakes. This wake turbulance is effective at 150-250m behind the vehicles. I tend to overtake these and get ahead, but sometimes people cut in front of you at much shorter distances and the wake can be a real pita!
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Interesting comment. Love to hear your best/worst cars.
@rodin4429
@rodin4429 7 ай бұрын
@@JulianEdgar I have actually thought to make a list, with a brief description of the body type. I'm in a long run on a few weeks, I might finally make that list and report back 😊
@jeffano3833
@jeffano3833 2 жыл бұрын
I camt decide whats best for my 65 mustang coupe,thinking of a drag style tail with a slight increasing angle,or just a small duck tail,anyone got suggestions?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
Best to test, not guess.
@user-zn6xr5xf7z
@user-zn6xr5xf7z 7 ай бұрын
Hello i have just purchased your latest book from amazon so on my way next with tuft testing Where would my car fit into this test as its non of the above shapes 1961 ford anglia 105e
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
It's a notchback with separated flow from the end of the roof.
@brennus5644
@brennus5644 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Julian would you be able to do a video on the aerodynamics of utes? I have a VE commodore that I am wanting to improve the aerodynamics of and would like to see someone else’s opinion on how to reduce airflow separation between the roof and hard lid cover of my tray while retaining a mostly OEM look. Hope you have a nice day mate
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
Testing in your answer.
@wyskass861
@wyskass861 6 ай бұрын
How is the airflow under the body modelled here, to meet and integrate with the top flow as they would affect each other?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
Not sure what you mean - the underbody airflow is modelled to reflect the shape of the model (and is the same for all three shapes).
@wyskass861
@wyskass861 6 ай бұрын
@@JulianEdgar Ok. I was wondering how the top side body shape would affect pressures on the underside by affecting the exit flow from the bottom . And also what proportion of the forces are coming from the underside. As in a diffuser effect. I'm not sure if it's relevant for this comparison though, since you're showing measurements not cfd simulations. I'm mostly asking, because I was wondering how much model detail iI'd need to get an accurate CFD simulation. Specifically, assumptions for flow through radiator and out the back of engine, as well as roughness of underbody. And if ignoring these would still give a good result when just analysing particular area options as in your example. Of course I could also be wording or thinking about this wrong.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
Watch kzfaq.info/get/bejne/h9ucoah_3tquZH0.html
@UncleBoobs
@UncleBoobs 6 ай бұрын
super interesting video, i was secretly hoping to see the legendary Lexus LS400 in this video though. the most aerodynamic land yacht in history.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
The LS400 is a good example of a low drag notchback (three box, sedan) shape. (I have owned two.)
@jettoaji646
@jettoaji646 2 жыл бұрын
9:18 could you explain why there is a higher speed flow near the edges of the car compared to the centreline?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
Because it's not subject to the small separation bubble.
@tbthedozer
@tbthedozer 7 ай бұрын
If there was a book like this for motorcycle windscreens it’d probably sell like mini donuts during crazy day at the shopping center.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
All the test techniques in my book can be applied to motorcycles - airflow, lift/downforce, changes in drag....www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Aerodynamics-Modification-Development-alternative/dp/B0C87VYVL8
@metepack4872
@metepack4872 2 жыл бұрын
I appreciate your attention to flow and drag. An area that *should have been central to automotive design at least 3 decades earlier. Question though, wouldn't these comparisons be more useful with an attached flow fastback? I thought attached flow was the whole point of the fastback
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
I am not sure I understand you. The fastback has attached flow, hasn't it?
@metepack4872
@metepack4872 2 жыл бұрын
Ideally yes, but in this particular model the fastback has a big low pressure zone that would not be there if the flow was attached
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
@@metepack4872 Yes, but look at the pressures - there's still plenty of flow attachment. eg 5:05
@peanuts2105
@peanuts2105 7 ай бұрын
My Jaguar XF has a little aerodynamic ‘lip’ just above the rear window. I don’t think it’s there to provide attached airflow, I think it acts as a high speed stabiliser
@Blue-God
@Blue-God 3 жыл бұрын
Just what I was looking for
@MrTiti
@MrTiti Жыл бұрын
@Julian Edgar Hi, i am discussing air drag with a friend. He drives a Lorry in the NEtherlands. A 2014 Truck. He pulls a tanker behind him, basically a "pipe" on wheels. but on the top ie left and right next to the pipe a grid, where workers can walk on. this grid has holes so it is lighter and the grid "fins" are vertical, have different height and a slightly inclined shape to give more hold. i wounder how high the air drag is and if we could solve it by putting a "plank" on the grid. If you know who i could ask to solve this, or if you have read it but cant find a quick answer, i would love a feedback if you have read this. Thanks in Advance
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar Жыл бұрын
Covering the walkways might make a difference (reduced frictional drag), but it would be only tiny.
@scottkushino9868
@scottkushino9868 2 жыл бұрын
@Julian Edgar - I'm a fan of your video series! @3:24, on the comparison table, it seems that bluff / squareback shapes are slightly higher in drag, but have massively lower lift in both the front and rear. Given that Cd mostly impacts top speed (bragging rights but limited relevance in the real world) and fuel economy (lower priority for buyers of expensive performance cars), why aren't Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsche, 'Vettes, etc, shaped more like estate / wagons? It seems to me that low Cl is a higher priority than Cd in this niche market. Thoughts?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
I think that in that sector, styling is the dominant factor.
@ego4551
@ego4551 7 ай бұрын
They actually are! Just look at how small the roof to spoiler elevation changes are,how high the rear ends and how much Porsche needs to aerodynamically fight to keep the low rear end design which is their trademark. Most of them are upside down fastbacks.
@DeepakChauhan-zt5kv
@DeepakChauhan-zt5kv 2 жыл бұрын
Super.
@alexeysafronov6447
@alexeysafronov6447 6 ай бұрын
It should be possible to transform turbulent flow into laminar flow by changing the shape of the hood and roof, making it go through a tight space for compression and separation and then gradual and linear compression. What is presented here is just a result of the front side of the car going through the air. It's also interesting to take a look at a side profile to create gaps that would smoothen the airflow or the car's wheels as well as making it more droplet like shape overall. Its well known to design the bottom of the car with aerodynamic splitters that both create directed airflow providing cooling and creating less lift, so there less downforce needed to be compensated.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
Quite a bit of confusion in what you have written here - maybe read my book?
@ehsnils
@ehsnils 7 ай бұрын
As noted the aerodynamics considered is partial, so the actual lift and downforce values may be a bit different. What did seem to be left out is the airflow below the vehicle and for anyone familiar with Formula 1 these days the floor plays a vital role for the car. Just slight changes in the suspension geometry could give different result on downforce due to the changes in airflow under the car.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
The undersides of all the models are the same.
@amduser86
@amduser86 6 ай бұрын
@@JulianEdgar not, they are not. that just to large a generalization. the aerodynamic desgin of the underside of a bmw 3 series is already different/worse than that of the alfa guila and those are fairly exepsnive cars. if you consider more afordable cars stuff get's even worth. the is no need for aerodynamic optimazation of the underside in most asian markets, since they are not allowed to drive at any speed the car would benefit from it ...
@k0walsk
@k0walsk 4 ай бұрын
Beautifully consistent with theory. One thing: these two, I'll call them measurement planes, are only 20cm apart right?
@Lordosvk
@Lordosvk 2 жыл бұрын
Looks like the combi (squerback) is best for normal driving.
@aNaturalist
@aNaturalist Жыл бұрын
That's what I gather from this video too, but I'd have to watch it again.
@brokenrecord3523
@brokenrecord3523 6 ай бұрын
It looks better. It makes the car worse. - I can see the designers and engineers having this argument all over the world. As the manufacturing engineers and workers say "I can't build either one." and the mechanics: "That oil filter is where!!!"
@vtwl24
@vtwl24 Жыл бұрын
what's the solution to overcome drag on the rear for notchback?
@sofjanmustopoh7232
@sofjanmustopoh7232 Жыл бұрын
Small sets of vortex generator would induces vortices and provide less flow separation . It will reduce the drag a small amount . But in the end you are trading small drag and additional lift . Which in some car necessitate a spoiler wind that cancel the rear lift and end with more drag
@poncetio
@poncetio 6 ай бұрын
Hello, how much the plastic tray under the motor would help ?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
If it's well designed, a lot.
@flee4urlives
@flee4urlives 6 ай бұрын
underrated vid.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 6 ай бұрын
You should see the book! www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Aerodynamics-Modification-Development-alternative/dp/B0C87VYVL8
@BLARNEYBLARNEY
@BLARNEYBLARNEY 7 ай бұрын
From 8:22 … would love to see this pressure map from above …. Looking down on the airflow. Excellent Stuff !
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
It's only the pressures on the vehicle surfaces that matter, and you can work them out pretty well from the diagrams.
@robertg.tibelljohansson7869
@robertg.tibelljohansson7869 7 ай бұрын
Makes me wonder how my old Brick of a car a volvo 945 station wagon would do in a modern wind tunnel.
@afu9718
@afu9718 2 жыл бұрын
I was read this essay thank you
@umarmars47
@umarmars47 3 жыл бұрын
Front lift & rear lift, which should be high or low for optimum aerodynamics? Sorry for noob question.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 3 жыл бұрын
No lift at all is best. If the car has lift, more front lift than rear lift is best in a normal front-engine car.
@umarmars47
@umarmars47 3 жыл бұрын
@@JulianEdgar I asked a bit too early, I should watched your videos first before asking. Thank you!!
@galaxymetta5974
@galaxymetta5974 2 жыл бұрын
@@JulianEdgar That means fastback is more unstable than notchback at high speed. How about fuel economy?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 2 жыл бұрын
@@galaxymetta5974 Drag is covered in the video too, isn't it?
@ilkerYT
@ilkerYT 2 жыл бұрын
So station wagons are Squareback technicaly right and that means they are the best ?
@wiegraf9009
@wiegraf9009 Жыл бұрын
Yes that's correct
@indopleaser
@indopleaser Жыл бұрын
wish you would make some more videos
@vevenaneathna
@vevenaneathna 6 ай бұрын
theres a reason why Richard Feynman once called turbulence “the most important unsolved problem of classical physics.” whether its the founders of quantum mechanics, or the OG classical physicists, it seems like every smart person ive learned about has spent some time pondering aerodynamics. from einsteins contributions to brownian motion, to leonardo da vinci's drawings of mechanical inventions, it seems like aero has fascinated and surprised everyone. not to sound like a sociopath, but sometimes I put wedge my cig buts on the back of my car and am suprized at how they may or may not still be there after driving on the highway depending on the car shape and location lol.
@mainrig4981
@mainrig4981 6 ай бұрын
thats why on some cars you have sand papered licence plates in the back
@WarriorOfEden3033
@WarriorOfEden3033 Жыл бұрын
So if you got a notch back get vortex generators & a spoiler. Fast back just get vortex generators because most already have spoilers
@pudermcgavin4462
@pudermcgavin4462 7 ай бұрын
I drive a mk7 golf hb and it's super stable at 100+mph where my old 90s civic hb was horrible darty and light feeling at even lower speeds! Than I lowered it and it made a world of difference but still felt very sketchy at the top speed for it limits 100-110mph
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Plenty of ways of overcoming high-speed aero instability - even gaining downforce in a road car. All covered in my most recent book - www.amazon.com/Vehicle-Aerodynamics-Modification-Development-alternative/dp/B0C87VYVL8
@23DuDe
@23DuDe 7 ай бұрын
I would like to see this same test done with roof rails installed to see what the disturbance and impact is.
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Very easy to do such a test yourself at zero cost.
@willyjimmy8881
@willyjimmy8881 5 ай бұрын
Maybe we'll see a few time attack cars on estate chassis after this? Maybe?
@chehystpewpur4754
@chehystpewpur4754 7 ай бұрын
a funny little tid bit about drag and aerodynamics. i daily an suv with a coefficient drag of .4 at the time it was made it was very aerodynamic amazingly. a few years later bmw released the most aerodynamic production vehicle ever. it had a coefficient drag of .24 thats not a very big difference between an suv and a car. the can and suv both had a v8 and i owned both. still have the suv bmw was a pos. i get 35 mpg city and country roads and 30 mpg on the highway. by having relatively low drag low weight lots of torque and gears to use the torque without turning a ton of rpms. i have a fun to drive cheap to drive racecar that i can load with things and haul them all over. proper planning can go a long way.
@LetMeMakeYouTaco
@LetMeMakeYouTaco 7 ай бұрын
Great video!! But does anyone know why squareback had the most downforce and fastback had the least?? In my thought, with less abrupt change of angle, fastback would have least flow separation, and in fact had highest pressure area at the rear, thus, greatest downforce (which wasnt the case) Could anyone explain why the result is this way???
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Lift is caused by low pressures as the airflow wraps around the upper curves. Less upper curves on a squareback.
@LetMeMakeYouTaco
@LetMeMakeYouTaco 7 ай бұрын
@@JulianEdgar Thank you so much for your reply!! I rewatched your video and now I see wider range of negative pressure on the roof of fast back and notch back! So does that mean although notchback and fastback has high pressure area at the rear, overall the pressure is lower on the top of the car than bottom causing a lift? I assumed separation would cause low pressure at the rear causing a lift, Im glad that I learned new things. So when it curves it creates lower pressure, like how diffuser curves, expand, creates lower pressure?
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
In answer to your questions: yes and yes. Separation does not cause lift on any modern car shape.
@kennethjackson7574
@kennethjackson7574 7 ай бұрын
Do a search for Drogo-bodied Ferrari 365 P2 LeMans 1967, then look among the images for a white one bearing number 18. That one ran at LeMans with two rear stabilizing fins, while number 26 had a wing between the fins. In any case, they sort of defined “long tail.”
@JulianEdgar
@JulianEdgar 7 ай бұрын
Long tails date back to the 1930s....
@rdbrewer4
@rdbrewer4 15 күн бұрын
What about hunchback?
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