Thanks for watching guys, thanks also go to Salem Straub who helped Will learn what parts to buy to get this set-up running! Thanks as ever to our sponsor supporting what we do: Install Raid for Free ✅ IOS: clik.cc/gfjo5 ✅ ANDROID: clik.cc/Irvj9 ✅ PC: clik.cc/fmWc0

"We've got ourselves an issue" This doesn't sound like the Alec Steele channel at all

Ideas for (maybe) improving (possibly unnecessarily) the PID controller: 1) Install a (small) bypass valve around the solenoid valve: always allow past a little gas so the flame never actually goes out. (The controller chooses between high and low rather than on and off.) 2) Hook up a relay to control the fan as well to avoid blowing (cold) oxidizing air thought the forge when the controller calls for less heat (maybe that can be done as high/low as well, some fan motors can be speed controlled with light dimmer switches) .

Alex. This is a great idea and concept, kudos for your enthusiasm with the project. I do not wish to be negative in any way. I have been an engineer for 40 years and designed, built and operated the the type of system you are attempting to build and use. In the voice of safety which is most important here, you should consider an alarm setting in the PID to not allow opening of the gas sol. valve to be within ignition temp. It would be best to use a Gas Regulating valve for gas flow control, this would give you far better temp. control. Pilot ignition is also a very good to have, weather this is flame, electronic, or thermal element. Your heater in the shop is far more complicated than you think, and your forge should be at a min. just as complicated. I wish you the best and please be safe.

You want a modulating valve and not a solenoid valve. You don't want to shut off the gas just reduce it.

I love how his blow torch says torch so that people don’t think it’s a hammer

This is pretty cool Alec, however you should revisit this. Get 2 modulating valves, 1 for the gas, and 1 for the air (if you don't control the air flow the air will blow the remaining heat out of the forge and cool it down), and hook an Arduino to the valves so that it can give more precise controls to the valves. Also you should put a pilot, whether is is a continuous flame or just a spark, so that you don't blow yourselves up.

Great work Alec! Im a control systems engineer and suggest you install a pilot light AND a gas detector nearby as a last line of defense in the case of the solenoid valve opening and there is no ignition. Even if you make sure to never set the setpoint below self ignition temp, an temporary output failure to the solenoid from the PID, short power outage or temporary loss of gas supply will cause the forge to drop below self ignition temperature and the PID will try to send Gas to it. The gas will start pouring into the room with no ignition.

I showed this to my electrical instructor and he just kinda sat there and did his grandpa giggle and downloaded the video. He's probably gonna make this a class project now XD

While everyone is giving their 2 cents on the mini forge, the issue with the big forge is supplying atmospheric pressure air. The piping is likely way too large (3-4 inch I.D intake pipe is suitable for quite high pressure air uses), and the fan type doesn't appear to provide compression of the air. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water here, you need to collaborate with a fluid engineer for just a few minutes of a phone conversation to have this sorted out.

Someone needs a Skillshare course on electrical wiring.

Honestly this is why I enjoy electrical work so much. It looks super complicated on paper and the wires make it look like so much but when you get to the end there’s so much satisfaction watching the thing work.

You could have two gas feeds, one that only feeds a little bit but always stays lit, and the solenoid which turns your main feed on and off. Think of it as like an afterburner on a jet engine. Sort of like a pilot light but not really. You could have a low volume feed bring the forge up to say a thousand degrees or something. Then the PID controls the afterburner to bring it up to where you actually want it to get, and shuts off when you get to your set point.

That is the thing that has always drawn me to watch Alec and the rest of the team. Sure, he could go out and hire and electrician and they'll get the job done right and all. But it's that, "I'll do it, so I know how to next time." Or simply, "I want to do it myself." Has been a very good breath of fresh air and wish more people were like that than relying on others.

I got unbelievably excited when the PID kicked the forge back on. I simply cannot wait to see the projects you guys take on now that you have temperature control!!!

3:07 I'm so glad you guys labeled the torch. I had no idea what it was before!!!

I know electrical wiring isn't exactly your strongest ability, but I have to say you are one of the first and only youtubers that I wasnt in constant for your safety while wiring something up. You honestly want to know what your doing but already have a solid understanding of your personal limits and are smart enough to back off when things are beyond your knowledge and safety levels.

Alec, You can add a thermocoupling that allows the gas valve to close in the event that the gas is not burning. This would be a most important safety. You could also add an auto igniter that comes on when your valve opens. That is how the furnace that you were pointing out in your shop works

Dude I love your work. Your cinematographer is awesome. Plus your editing is really great

Glad you have a manual valve at the end of the system and aren't just trusting the electronics. Definitely a good idea when you have a live gas line into your forge. Love your videos

All the cool stuff you've got going on, your dust room is still my favorite.

" That thunder joke never gets old!"...Thor

I love it! I’m an electrician, and it’s always a hoot watching you figure out electrical and electronics. Keep up the good fight lol.

Nice start. Do note that when the gas is off--but the air remains on--the forge will develop an oxidizing atmosphere. The "perfect" setup would be to have flow meters and modulating valves on both the fuel and air; a temperature controller on the gas; and a ratio controller on the air. You'd set the ratio controller for the air/fuel ratio needed to achieve the desired atmosphere (reducing or oxidizing) in the forge. As the gas rate changes with temperature, the air rate will automatically adjust proportionally so that the atmosphere in the forge doesn't change--only the temperature will. Adding a minimum gas flow (so a flame never goes out) as others suggest would make it ideal.

Watching you use that torch and hammer and anvil for the flat bar reminded me of early channel days when you posted a video a day just forging everything. Love it

Hey Alec I really really hope you see this You can save the problem of the forge getting to a too low of a temperature so when the forge reaches a too low of a temperature and the pid will sense that it will trigger a high frequency arc that will reignite the gas kind of like a lighter

very saucy jacket on that raid add. alec out here serving looks

This has been the only episode on this channel where I've thought, "That doesn't seem so bad." Electronics are something I'm familiar with. I studied the internal workings of a PID, so that makes perfect sense to me. That was kinda fun. I'll probably never feel that watching another Alec Steele video. Gotta enjoy it while it lasts.

Your excitement about controlling fire and accuracy is pretty contagious. Gonna be shouting it while making head shots. *"FIRE, CONTROL, ACCURACY!!"*

At first I thought the pid was trash with that flickering screen then I remembered refresh rates and fps and all that good stuff

You have no idea how much I needed this 🤣I was so gosh darn bored

And here I am with a wood fire, lawnmower blade, a stump, and the back of a camp axe. A little too wet or too dry or just not enough wind and I can't forge. Keep up the great work!

It's a beautiful thing, watching you grow 3 times at once... As an artisan, always pushing yourself to make more complex projects requiring both blacksmith and jewelry techniques; as a company, going from just selling of finished products to teaching us how to blacksmith and selling raw materials and tools; and as an individual, always staying just outside of your comfort zone -- be it welding a bike or wiring electronics

Alec, to save on a pilot, you can buy an instrument called a “flame eye” many boilers have them, very simply if you make it a master over the Fuel Gas Solenoid, it you flame out, it will de-power the solenoid.

"if it works, we will make a better solution" No, you will not... That's the biggest lie you can tell yourself

The temperature control addition will cause a great uptick in quality. In particular, homogenization of your work will be greatly improved. Great work!

Alec! Finally something I could maybe help with! Not sure how precise you're looking to get the temperature on that forge-- but if you have accuracy issues here's two things that might help: 1. It's important that you use the correct thermocouple wire for your thermocouple to provide accurate measurements. Looks like you're using a Type K thermocouple by the yellow cable you used. 2. The depth of your "thermowell" (the tube your thermocouple is protected by) is fairly shallow. When measuring fluid temperatures in pipe, the ideal depth of the tip is the middle third. Obviously, that's not ideal for something you're sticking metal into. All this means is that I think your thermocouple will probably be under-reporting the actual temperature of the forge. Neither of those two things are going to affect your consistency, which may be all that you care about. Just figured I'd chime in to prevent you from some annoying troubleshooting if you're worried about how precise the temp will be.

Not only europeans Alec, the whole WORLD uses Celsius.

That striped jacket looks straight out of the 80's.

Hey Alec. I happen to know a fair amount about Thermocouples I figured I would lend some information. Mostly to make sure you're TC gives you the best read out it can. So first and foremost, the TC wire you have running from the TC to the controller is called TC extension wire. Extension wire is color coded opposite of normal wire. Meaning red is negative and white is positive. If wired backwards the TC will work almost correctly but will give a temperature reading about 10% off. This leads to the issues of TC extension wire and connecting it to TC wire. The reason why a TC works is basically if two dissimilar metals come in contact the produce a voltage in millivolts. If the connection is heated the voltage changes. Those voltages are known and the controller knows if the voltage is x then the temp is y. The problem is the TC extension wire and the TC wire are different alloys. TC extension wire is cheaper and is often called a compensating wire. This means the wire should have no electrical effect on the voltage coming from the TC. Should being the key word. If the connection between the extension wire and the TC wire is heated that connection will cause a thermoelectric effect. This voltage will create error in the temperature reading on your controller. I suggest you find out what TC type you have and buy TC wire and not TC extension wire to connect to your controller. Also loose the brass block that you are connecting too. Direct connect them by forming eyelets and use small machine screws through the eyelets. Make sure the wires are touching not just the screw. If you have any more questions feel free to ask. Im an engineer for a company that makes hermetic TC feed throughs for satellites, space and other ultralight vacuum applications.

Holy crap, that was fun seeing that much unbridled excitement out of Alec! Tech is cool and fun, no doubt!

when you shouted "it's working" you sounded just like Jeremy Clarkson. and under the same conditions, you're a mad scientist Alex.

"This is Sam. He tolerates my dad jokes."

Well done sir. It's really fun when everything works as planned. Minor distinction, not electrical but controls.

Guys, I love the idea of DIY electronics to help better your working environment. I'm buy no means an electrician, I'm actually a mechanic, but a few things I've learned that helped me so much: A good crimps and an assortment of terminals. Weather they're spade connecters, eye (or ring) connectors, and even ferrals, they are a must have to make sure everything is tight and secure! Nothing worse than having a connection loose and some arcing. Some lengths of wire with crocodile clips at each end. When mocking up connections, I use to use the butt type or twist connectors. And if something went wrong, I had to quickly pull them off. But with crocodile clips, so easy and handy to connect/disconnect until I have to make a more permanent connection. Lastly, self soldering heat wrap! These have worked out for me so many time when I've accidentally put a cable too short and I have to lengthen it. Beats twisting cables and putting electrical tape on by a mile! Hope you read this and find it useful, keep up the good work?

12:20 *Jeremy Clarkson enters the chat* 😂😂 you sound identical to him

There is litterally only 1 thing I like about RAID: Shadow Legends. Just one! their willingness to throw money at just about anyone.

The same sort of tech is used for liquid nitrogen freeze seals for piping isolation. The thermocouple controls the flow of liquid nitrogen, wicked cool to use it for a forge.

I've been watching you for about two years now. I'm a huge fan. Thanks for all the great advice and informative videos brother.

"Those are NOT good noises." LOL!

Alec: I have no idea what I'm doing Me: No one does brother

I love watching these videos because they are a seperation from the nerd stuff I'm into like game programming, showing what someone can do with their hands. I have to say though it was refreshing to see Alec do something like installing that Pid, and watching him have absolutely no idea what he's doing. Love the videos Alec, never stop being awesome.

Your excitement is contagious and palatable!

This is as close to first as I'll ever get. 😂 Also. Why not get a regulating solenoid rather than an open/close only? While you do have a measure of control you never really keep it at the desired temperature, it will always reach it and drop by about 100 degrees. Not sure how much difference that makes but I imagine it would still be better.

With all the troubles with the forge, and all the hours put into it, it does make me wonder if it would have cost less to just buy a premade unit in the beginning.

Alec I work with alot of electricians and I can tell you, your electrical work is alot cleaner and nicer than what some electrical guys get away with hahaha. Keep it up, love your work brother.

Awesome work Alec! Great to see people not just resting on "Good enough" and working to make stuff better. All I'd say is to maybe consider a few tweaks for safety? A second, normally closed, Solenoid that only opens above the critical ignition temperature or if a button is held down maybe? Once you get to operating temperature that would allow gas into the system but would cut it off if the temperature got too low. Someone would have to hold the button during start-up but it would prevent unfortunate accidents. Also, one small and one large gas feed, where the large is controlled by a variable valve, would help avoid accidents while giving you more precise control than just on and off.

How are there 3 views, this was posted 20 seconds ago

Hi there

Alec those pid’s are great. I’m an electrician if recommend a solo temp controller or an omron. You can also set a “bump” on them. A bump is basically a range setting so if you set your bump to 5 for example the solenoid won’t activate or deactivate until it’s within 5 degrees of your high or low limit. It’s nice because the solenoid won’t be constantly clicking around your temp. It prolongs solenoid life.

At one point Alec does something and says I feel imminent death approaching then immediately does it again. Brilliant!!!!

Alec, I didn't see any venting on the box that the controller was housed in. Is it open somewhere to prevent the controller from overheating and failing? The possibility is remote, but if the solenoid malfunctioned also, you might vent or possible leak gas. This will become more likely as the sealing surfaces of the solenoid age. Take Care. Stay safe. I want to keep seeing videos from your channel. :-)

When working with electricity, and admitting you don't know what you're doing, I think it unwise to use the pun, "I'm going to be shocked."

Pid controllers are really cool and glad to see you working out of your comfort zone. I litterally work around 1000s of them everyday operating a gas plant. There are alot of things you can do with them and given the right devices you could make it control support precise. But for what yall are doing with it, it will work and good job.

This video hit at the perfect time for me to add this to my new forge build! Thanks, Alex! CHEERS!!!

I'm surprised he never mentioned that he's wearing a Steele branded jacket

Omg I love especially when u did the bike

oh alec, you've gone into the deep end again. I love the grit you've developed over the years just trying stuff out regardless of your expertise.

Excellent job guys . Watching you instead of decorating the lounge. 😁

What kind of refractory cement did you use? My forge has melted everything I've tried so far, and i really need one that can handle 3500f+

Awesome cant wait to see all the projects you can do now with the control you have on that forge!!!!

Hey that's pretty cool, and good job for figuring it out. I strongly suggest you also wire in a flame scanner and interlock for safety sake on your fuel train. As a power engineer, I can tell you all large boilers and fired heaters will have them so that fuel is cut off in any flame out condition. It's one of the most important safety controls there are.

"Breaking news: A natural gas explosion has leveled a small manufacturing complex in Bozeman, Montana. The cause of the explosion is suspected to be a malfunctioning metalworking forge which failed to reignite when the homebuilt temperature controller turned the flow of gas back on to bring the forge back to operating temperature".

You could connect something like a spark plug to the same connector of the solenoid, then everytime the valve opens a spark will ignite the gas.

So add a small pilot light for lower temps. If you are concerned about the main burner not lighting, you could also add a flame sensor.

First time you made the thunder joke legitimately made me laugh. Such great old humor.

There is nothing so permit as a "temporary" solution. Really, the great wall of China wast a temporary solution for the Hun problem.

I miss real Sam! Where is he now? His channel is gone!

Really cool. I think you could get a pilot light unit from a household space heater or hot water heater or even a home hvac furnace, to use just for safety’s sake... even if it’s a manually lit pilot... just something to make sure the scenario you described NEVER happens!

I tell computers what to do for my job 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week and I am so pumped for you and your team that you did this. Keep up the good work.

"For our European viewers..." I think you mean "For our viewers from practically anywhere other than USA..."

"For European viewers", do you mean for almost the ENTIRE world except the U.S.?

Awesome. About time you get the upgrade. New forge looks great. Cant wait for the new projects.

I'm sure several people have mentioned this but that is not PID control. It is on off control. PID control requires a proportional output. You are operating a solenoid (digital) valve. You would need to operate a modulating valve (usually it is a single modulating valve that controls both the fuel and the air at a set ratio). In commercial systems there are two methods of operation, either on off control (which is what you are doing) or PID (temperature controlled using a proportional control valve). In either case you would usually use a burner controller such as an LFL or the like. They have safety system built in to them. One of those is 2 valves with pressure switches either side that confirm that the valve does indeed turn on and off and the pressure does change accordingly when the valves are operated. This confirms that the valves are operating correctly. The system also has a blower pressure switch that tells the controller that the blower fan is indeed running. Likewise there is 1 or 2 flame sensors. These detect the pilot light and the main flame. There is usually a blower fan damper (again a modulating actuator). During a sequence start up the system will test the valves to ensure that 1) there is indeed sufficient gas pressure 2) the valves are operating correctly and can safely cut the flow of gas if there is an issue. Please note there is usually a low gas pressure switch on the supply side that requires a manual reset as well to prevent flashback if the gas pressure drops too low. This will disable the entire valve and firing sequence. The system will then drive the damper fully closed and then fully open again, thereby testing that the system can modulate the temperature appropriately. It will then completely open the damper and purge the system of gas (in case the system cut off mid flame and you ask it to reset) this will usually run at a minimum of 7 complete air changes of the burner chamber effectively diluting any and all gas that remains in the chamber (in case a loss of flame or a failure to ignite caused an issue) to a safe level not to cause an ignition. The system will then close the damper completely and ignite the pilot light (usually using an electrical igniter). It will look for a flame (using the flame sensor) to confirm that the pilot light did indeed ignite. If it does, it will then attempt to light the main flame. It will then look for an increase in the intensity of the detected flame from the flame sensor and hand damper control over to the user. If the pilot or main flame do not operate or are not sensed by the flame sensor the burner controller will shut off the gas and lockout, requiring the user to intervene to restart the cycle (which will yet again proceed to purge the entire system again ready for a fresh start). While you have indeed used a PID "capable" controller you are not using as a PID controller as you do not have a modulating output or many of the inherent safety systems usually required (by law) to be in place with gas fired burner systems. You are just using the "PID controller" as a thermostat... Also I don't believe you have put a deadband / hysteresis that will allow a little bit of wiggle room either side of your setpoint to prevent the system from short cycling (hitting your temperature and turning off and then flicking up and down a degree and causing your output to flick on and off again). It is common to have a hysteresis when dealing with on off control systems like this. I am very concerned about the lack of the mentioned safeguards I've outlined above and it has caused more than one fatality when incorrectly integrated. Also, with using a single solenoid valve instead of 2, it is quite possible for gas leaks to occur and with hydrocarbons being heavier than air they can travel large distances in search of ignition sources. I'm a Hazardous Area electrician from Australia who has worked with burner systems, hazardous liquid and gas bulk storage facilities and large industrial plant for over 20 years as well as PLC Programming and automation control systems with SCADA interfaces. More than happy to assist you if you want. Best wishes and love the channel.

This is very cool! If I can make a suggestion, I think the addition of an igniter would be very beneficial and super easy. Tie a relay from the solenoid signal to an ignitor. You could easily get a boiler/hot water heater ignitor set up with a timer and the logic already there. Keep up the awesome videos! You are awesome

Have to say this might be favorite episode. I love when you challenge yourself and this is incredible. Can’t wait to see the beautiful pieces you make with this fine tool you’ve created. It’s so much fun to watch you grow and learn.

man it's just the natural progress of business. Get into a trade industry, get gud at it, then sell materials and equipment to others in your space. Genius!

Alex, I am having a lot of fun watching your videos and your enthusiasm at your projects. As many pointed out before me, you have to err on the side of safety. In a project with minimal to moderate risk, you need at least 2 safety measures to prevent the bad from becoming reality. Given an unburned gas leak leads to catastrophic results you need 3 or more safety measures, each capable of stopping the gas flow. Potential measures include fire eye, temperature sensing RTD or thermocouples... Beside modulating valves you need 2 separate on/off valves (normally closed) in series in case one fails... and finally gas detectors: natural gas, CO and CO2, all linked to the building fire alarm. Each of the safety measure must either be hardwired or run from a separate controller running on a separate circuit breaker. Be safe !

I appreciate how you guys work through your problems keep up the good work

A pilot light is a must have. Also you should switch off the blower too. With the gas off you are going to cool your forge much much faster with the air still on.

A small loop of nichrome wire shunting line current will work as a quick and dirty igniter. You can drop in an arduino to control one based on the temperature sense and the solenoid state. It will not prevent the forge from popping if there is a misfire, but it will prevent the workshop from exploding. The worst case damage risk will be reduced from building explosion to flying forge door(s). If you ever get any misfires that cause a pop, check your valves for leaks to make sure they aren't damaged by the sudden pressure changes.

I really like using wago lever nuts for prototyping electrical things like that instead of the twist nuts. Way easier to use especially if you have to change things.

I worked in a steel mill for a while. Had a reheat furnace for the billets. You may wish to research the necessity of more than one thermo-couple. The forge has different heat zones that may require this. Ours was HE-UGE in size to yours but further research may help you out a lot. Also the wire for the thermocouple and the thermocouple connection itself must be chemically similar. ................. enjoy

I completely understand and can relate to the enthusiasm. I'm excited when I install new elements and thermocouples on my kiln, and have it work, and I'm barely doing anything! Speaking of, I know that with my kiln, if I were to use the ceramic sleeve for the thermocouples (I don't) I would have to offset the controller a bit so it would take that into consideration. If not the temperature reading would be off.

Might want to check manual about that valve. Usually need to mounted upward. Downward orientation of valve could cause valve to fail open. Just something to look out for. Love the DIY keep it up

Look into PID cycle tuning. Your controller uses 3 values: P- Current temp values I- Past temp values D- Estimated future temp values And averages them into a set of 3 numbers, P, I, and D. Calibrating the values that the controller uses can greatly improve the accuracy of the temperature control. This will eliminate the large gaps between fire times which result in potentially undesirable temperature drops, as well as optimizing fire times, reducing the amount of fuel needed to maintain temperature. . There's too much to get into in a comment but I highly reccomend looking into it. This is how the 1,700cu/ft kilns at work are tuned and it seems to work pretty well.

First, I highly recommend putting a thermocouple on every forge. It's so useful to know what temp you're working at. But, at the same time, when I get to my target temp, instead of a PID, I just adjust my fuel pressure and air flow. Turning the fuel on and off is going to throw off the atmosphere of the forge, whether you want a neutral or reducing flame. Putting cold steel in the forge is going to cause a temp swing of 50 degrees or more. Given the number of variables to consider, I find it so much easier just to adjust the air and fuel flow to maintain a target temp. Also, I don't have the budget or space for a proper heat treating oven, so setting my forge for 1525 degrees (or whatever, depending on the steel) results in much better heat treatments. The thermocouple and meter was only $40. Absolutely essential.

You don't need a dedicated pilot light. Just put a low pressure bypass around your solenoid so enough gas goes by to keep the burner on a very low setting but still lit. It will help stabilize/hold your temperature better versus binary on/off and remove the high risk of an explosion that you have now.

I am in the water heater manufacturing business. You essentially have two choices in burners to achieve what you want. 1. A rich/lean burner with a positive pressure gas valve and staged solenoids and a fully modulating or step modulating fan to induce air. 2. A fully modulating burner with a negative pressure premix gas valve and modulating fan. Both take solid state electronics to run the burners efficiently and achieve the desired heat set point. Either way you go you will need a combustion analyzer in order to achieve the correct fuel air mixture for heat optimization. Have fun and be safe.

10:20 Alec, whilst admitting his lack of expertise in electrics “I’m gonna be shocked”