We Still Don't Understand Elden Ring

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CH4R10T

CH4R10T

22 күн бұрын

Just a fun rant about what I've been up to off stream and some quick thoughts on the state of Elden Ring and everything people have been saying about it.
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Thanks so much for watching!

Пікірлер: 38
@FelisImpurrator
@FelisImpurrator 20 күн бұрын
I'm digging the spooky ghost girl with pale skin and runny eyeliner aesthetic. Personal favorite look, although I like it with the classic white sheet dress thing. I have noticed that "bad writing" gets thrown around quite a lot as a phrase. Personally, the worst context in which it's used, my absolute least favorite, is when people use it to mean that a story fails to unfold narratively in line with their moral or social expectations. "The bad guy didn't get punished! That's bad writing!" That's silly. Since when is a story obligated to specifically affirm your biases, cultural or otherwise, in order to be "good"? This sort of conflation of "I don't like it" with "it's bad" is an incredibly common and shallow approach. And personally, it's tiresome. I think the idea of applying some absolute, orthodox ruleset for writing with commandments like "show don't tell" is... Downstream? Upstream? of this mentality. I also think that now that you mention it, the whole notion of difficulty as a moral discourse fits directly into this. "I don't like it" and "it's objectively bad" and "it's morally transgressive" are just all too often mixed into this strange slurry of completely distinct concepts that people have seemingly just become more reactionary about in many ways. It's like... I think it can be attributed to people searching for different levels of rationalization, almost. They can't bring themselves to simply stand by "I just don't like it" on its own merits, as a self-justifying claim, because of all sorts of social forces like the toxic hypercompetitiveness and false rationality of capitalism or the imposition of moralistic attitudes in all aspects of life by reactionaries. Not enough to just say you don't like a ship or a kink, oh no - it has to be "wrong" and "evil". Not enough to say you just don't like how a story ended - it has to be "objectively bad" lest you look like a fool for not acknowledging the "objective fact" that it's good. People feel pressured to defend their opinions in ways that really shouldn't be necessary, I think, because culture has gotten more hegemonic and exclusionary about these things. And I think that sucks.
@HarryDirtay
@HarryDirtay 20 күн бұрын
Good points! I've been irritated lately with the people making a big deal about the "somehow Palpatine returned" line. I mean, he returned and the guy didn't know how. Seems like a reasonable thing for a person to say to express the prior facts. I would expect their complaints about the return of palpatine to be related to the differences between his return in Canon and Legends. Their complaints are more the fact he returned, and not everyone in the movie read all the books and just knows why?
@FelisImpurrator
@FelisImpurrator 20 күн бұрын
@@HarryDirtay I think that movie has way more problems of significantly more importance. The meme line is just funny. But I think it's funny in a goofy Prequel Trilogy way and I like the prequels, so I'm totally okay with a "they fly now" here and there.
@DoctorWhoBlue
@DoctorWhoBlue 16 күн бұрын
​@@HarryDirtaythe line itself isn't a problem, it's just emblematic. Palatine's return just comes totally out of left field, with no setup or foreshadowing in the previous films, which makes for an unsatisfying twist. Not to mention, at least for me, the whole thing made me go "what, this guy *again*?"
@bdown08
@bdown08 20 күн бұрын
Photography is a fitting comparison to make in this scenario. When photography was first coming into its own in the late 1800s, there was a movement called Pictoralism which pushed for photographs to be more like paintings; soft focus, portraits with poses resembling classical paintings and such. People didn't really know what photography was or was capable of at that time, it wasn't appreciated as its own art form yet. There are some pretty clear parallels with video games in the present day, we still don't fully appreciate games as their own form of art yet. Like you said we still apply terms and ideas from film when talking about video games. Your videos are always thought-provoking and interesting, please keep up the awesome work!
@sophiakoshetz8521
@sophiakoshetz8521 20 күн бұрын
I'm big Dark Souls fan but even the base ER game was screaming to me "you can't beat this game the same way you can beat Dark Souls/Bloodborne" and the faster you'll have this realization the smoother experience you'll have. This game REQUIRES for you to be much more flexible than other soulsborne series. Also I think that accessibility should be more about controllers and options, not about difficulty..,
@FelisImpurrator
@FelisImpurrator 20 күн бұрын
Also, that bit about "the story of Dark Souls is your story" fits perfectly into the themes of... So to speak, positive nihilism underlying Souls games. The whole idea of letting the old order die to bring about something uncertain, but potentially more free and less bound by orthodoxy and stagnation, is perfectly in line with the philosophy of making one's own meaning and defining one's own future that "positive nihilism" represents. Say, what do you think of the story and lore of the DLC specifically? I think it's fascinating seeing how obviously Christian its imagery is... and more importantly, how savagely critical it seems to be of the underlying moral assumptions that Christian (and more broadly religious) cultures take for granted. Ideas like the inherent virtue of self-denial and self-sacrifice, for instance. Of purity, of holiness. Even of compassion, at least when it takes a form that overrides other people's will and desires. I think this sort of story that so clearly criticizes fanaticism and fundamentalism is a very topical one.
@CH4R10T_TV
@CH4R10T_TV 20 күн бұрын
I'll say I'm looking forward to writing about it in the future!
@rainbowkrampus
@rainbowkrampus 20 күн бұрын
I've been saying that the Greater Will and the outer gods are just like our gods, in that they don't actually exist. Metyr clenches it for me. The "daughter of the Greater Will" calls back to early christian lingo about being a "brother of the lord", since "christian" as a concept did not exist until the late 2nd century and all Jesus followers were jews after a fashion. There's just no getting around it, Metyr is an evangelist for her weird alien religion. She never communicated with anything other than her own zealous intuitions. It so closely parallels christianity that it hurts but some people don't want to see it no matter how much you point out that Leyendell is Constantinople in everything but name.
@FelisImpurrator
@FelisImpurrator 20 күн бұрын
@@rainbowkrampus On one hand, I certainly appreciate any insinuation that religion, especially Christianity, is a vile crock of nonsense forced on people by lunatics. On the other hand, I'm not sure we have any hard evidence that the Greater Will never existed, only that it certainly doesn't have any presence right now. What evidence are you looking at for that? We know that Metyr was almost certainly BS her way through the whole thing with the Two Fingers, and that this most likely includes the entire lifetime of the Golden Order. But do we also have concrete proof that the Greater Will was never a being that spoke to her at all? I don't think so. Unless we entertain the premise that the item descriptions can just outright lie... But then that arguably invalidates almost every piece of lore in the entire game, no? The flavor text is the only source we have that isn't literally taking characters at their word or seeing something in person. It also raises some... uh, sillier questions, like "where the hell is Mohg's spear getting all this blood?" I think the most coherent answer is simply that the Greater Will exists and is a petulant dickhead that abandoned its creations the nanosecond they stopped glazing it with mindless praise and obedience, kind of like what the Old Testament God does repeatedly. And that the Formless Mother is just some kind of semi-sapient blob of alien blood with a masochistic liking for being stabbed so she can pour out into the world. And so on. The religions formed around them though? Straight up nonsense from minute one.
@koshetz
@koshetz 20 күн бұрын
With all historical references i always thought that Elden Ring was the story about forceful christianisation of Europe (the heroic mythos of Godfrey's and crucible was about to attempt christianisation of an era that had barely anything to do with it like King Arthur's story, Goldmask ending as an allegory for beginning of Renaissance when people didn't get rid of church but reformed religion to have more humanistic approach that your life shouldn't revolve around fear of God, god damn entire Marika's story has so much similarities with Jesus) and DLC doubled down on it even harder. Wonder why people don't see so obvious parallels.
@fotnite_
@fotnite_ 20 күн бұрын
I've found that as I let the story of the DLC sit in my mind for a bit, I've come to appreciate it more. I think a lot of the upset about the story is from some characters seemingly not being touched on at all in the DLC (especially Godwyn), and also about Miquella and the final boss not being what people had expected. At first I had some similar reactions, but after some time this is no longer the case. Not to mention that the DLC definitely has more info than we think, and we need to wait a bit for people to discover it. I also saw a number of people complaining about the map being worse, which just baffles me. IMO the map is a step up from the base game by quite a bit, retaining the nonlinear nature but with the same kind of criss-crossing between, over, and under different regions that the first Dark Souls had. Stuff like the convoluted path to the Abyssal Woods, a scadutree fragment hidden behind a secret platforming challenge that has you descending all the way down the final dungeon along the outside, the verticality of the dungeons in general, and much more manages to weave some of the magic of DS1's map into an open-world map in a way I didn't think was possible. I loved the way the map was, but a number of people seem to actively despise it.
@fotnite_
@fotnite_ 20 күн бұрын
Oh yeah, I also saw the comment from that Blizzard employee, and what a wild take. The claim that "gamers are dumb and don't know what they want" would be true in almost any other context, but citing the positive reception of Elden Ring as proof of this was so bizarre.
@rainbowkrampus
@rainbowkrampus 20 күн бұрын
The thing with the map, I think, is that a lot of people have never played any other From games. They have no expectations besides what base game ER offered and so the idea of a not entirely helpful map seems baffling to them. I love it of course, I keep trying to get people to come around on the map, to recognize the intentionality that went into it. But ya know, some people just want to whine about finding it difficult to get around.
@koshetz
@koshetz 20 күн бұрын
Truuue, i think the map is so drastically improved because it's less horizontal and being too horizontal was my main critique for original game.
@comradeanthony4120
@comradeanthony4120 20 күн бұрын
What's funny is when I brought up the idea that Elden Ring doesn't have an extremely concise story, that it has tons of gaps for us the player to fill in on Reddit a LOT of people thought I was being stupid. So it's nice to see other people agree. I just got to the final boss and I am so stuck haha been on it for over a day but that's fine I'll get there. TBF I am making the fight unnecessarily difficult. I'm using the entire Leda Knight set and sword(I like the look), I am using the wolf shield and trying to parry most of his attacks not dodging around like I am making this fight extra challenging for no reason other than it's fun. I know if I wanted to there are so many better builds that I could use to murder the boss right now, but I am enjoying the challenge. I don't care if it takes me a week to beat him, I want to beat him on my terms and when it happens I will be sooooo hyped
@rainbowkrampus
@rainbowkrampus 20 күн бұрын
Parrying is one of the easier strats honestly. It interrupts his attacks so you don't get lasers at all in the 2nd phase. So many of his attacks are parryable that you can practically shut him down entirely if he decides to just swing at you the whole time. Once you figure out how to address all his "run away and then f*** you" moves in the 2nd phase, he'll go down for you in no time. If I can offer one piece of advice without being too specific, when in doubt, run away. It's useful more often than you might realize.
@Soudrah
@Soudrah 20 күн бұрын
Been following some stream vods post essays i loved (wolfenstwin) looking forward to more
@17spyguy
@17spyguy 20 күн бұрын
I swear even in these less scripted casual videos you say such thoughtful things that always stick with me. Love the book recommendations btw
@SoI_Badguy
@SoI_Badguy 20 күн бұрын
Coming from someone thats been playing these games and involved in this community for a very long time, people throwing around phrases like "pandering to Radahn fanboys" and "terrible writing" is just so funny to me. Time really is a flat circle. Every time Fromsoft (specifically Miyazaki) make a DLC, there's always a subsection of players that begin frothing at the mouth the moment Miyazaki doesnt confirm their old asf headcanons (something he has NEVER done), and instead of seeing how the new content recontextualizes thinks they just throw their nose up in the air. Same thing happened in Ds3 with people that wanted to go to Londor in the dlc. Same thing happened all the way back in Ds1 with Velka. Except this time, it's an army of Godwyn bros.
@rainbowkrampus
@rainbowkrampus 20 күн бұрын
The Godwyn bros are so cooked. It's funny, I was in the same camp. But with the magic of hindsight, it was actually kinda obvious it was never going to be about Godwyn. The thing people cite as why it should have been Godwyn is exactly the thing that proves it was not going to be him. The Golden Epitaph. It's just that, it does what it says on the tin. It's an epitaph, a prayer for the dead. It was buried in a hero's grave. Everyone just completely ignored the context. I fully own up to the fact that I did too. But I recognized my error. I have no idea what keeps these people from recognizing their own.
@metalsludge8205
@metalsludge8205 20 күн бұрын
28:55 the Joseph Anderson review and its consequences have been a disaster for Elden Ring criticism discourse
@ShadinCore
@ShadinCore 19 күн бұрын
actually we still don't understand video games in general i'd say that a lot of people claim to hold position that "games are art!", but they are often viewing gameplay, the element that actually makes games games, purely from the perspective of immediate entertainment every aspect is being reduced to notion of it being "fun" and a lot of mechanics that they don't like become "a waste of players time" (kinda similar to a "but what does it add to a story?" discourse about sex scenes)
@koshetz
@koshetz 20 күн бұрын
Love your take "story of dark souls is your story" because for me DS was about... Well death and acceptance of your own mortality. And it was 100 my own conclusion of what this games tried to say by both it themes and ending.
@metalsludge8205
@metalsludge8205 20 күн бұрын
23:00 I was going to suggest that maybe the Spirit Ash restrictions in multiplayer may be due to PvP, but that's undermined by the fact that 1) most areas don't let you summon spirits until you enter the fog gate, which sends any invading players home* and 2) they added an option for Spirit Ashes in the Colosseum game mode released later on**, so PvP Spirit Ashes is something they definitely considered doable. *doesn't apply to field bosses, which you can summon for in singleplayer AND can also get invaded during in multiplayer **the Colosseum wasn't added until almost a year after the game's release, so maybe they hadn't yet figured it out in time to include it as a basegame feature
@Para2normal
@Para2normal 20 күн бұрын
I'm watching this because you are such a fount of knowledge when DemonMamma is playing Souls games. With regards to looking for explanations of Souls games I always recommend Aegon of Astora's "Lets talk Lore" series. I was talking to a friend last night who is a die hard Skyrim fan and he was explaining how he couldn't play Elden Ring because a) he couldn't find the "Story" and b) he hated the fact there was no map guidance to the next part of the story (apart from the pointers at Sites of Grace).
@BirdNoise77
@BirdNoise77 20 күн бұрын
Really great video, I've been trying to figure out my feelings about difficulty vs accesibility. I've reached a point in my fromsoft worship where if a game isn't hard or just doesn't frustrate me with it's difficulty then I just won't play it. I smashed my head against margit day one and loved it, and a year later beat all bosses sl1. I have 100% achievements in all their souls-y games. All this to say, sometimes when I'm talking with people who don't play these games sometimes I end up feeling out of touch, and I think it's important to recognize that in myself and adjust how I talk about these games and art in general.
@FelisImpurrator
@FelisImpurrator 20 күн бұрын
@@BirdNoise77 Personally, I don't play for difficulty in the slightest. I solved all my damn problems in Elden Ring with cheese or level grinding, and after maybe a hundred hours painstakingly farming almost every item in the game for true 100% completion only to find out I missed a bunch... Eh, gave up and cheat engined a few hundred more levels and dupes of the items simply to save myself menu clicking... And I had a blast. It feels like my time playing Morrowind as a kid and just breaking the game in hilarious, occasionally unplayably self-sabotaging ways. It just lets you do whatever (or not if you don't want to) and that's what brings me joy in games. Only thing I wish would happen is for things to be about 15-20% tankier but also deal 30% less damage, because I prefer a sort of "slugger" playstyle of being able to dish out and take tons of punishment even when casting. I can get most of the way there, but maybe I need to start grabbing mods to make everything tankier, including myself. That way it wouldn't be too quick to beat bosses while having enough stats to use any gear at any time without losing out.
@koshetz
@koshetz 20 күн бұрын
i just think that talking about accesibility only in context of difficulty is misleading. Baldur's Gate 3 on hard mode is really tough game, but it has color blind mode and turn based gameplay which make it more accesible for a lot of people.
@bigmike70
@bigmike70 14 күн бұрын
"Being bad at video games is not a disability" made me laugh out loud
@waldonatorgr984
@waldonatorgr984 20 күн бұрын
I had only 4 gripes. 1) No ending integration... 2) DLC map felt a little more empty (but that's what they intended) and I loved exploration in base game... 3) No characters in base game in DLC... 4) Lore seems off I did a quick Google search and George didn't help write the DLC and that was Miyazakis mistake unless they didn't have the budget (doubt). I loved the lore but it seems rewritten or something. Like Miyazaki and his team just came up with whatever they thought was ok for a continuation of the story. Other than that, I loved the DLC. I loved Elden Ring in general. A lit a fire I thought had disappeared when gaming was peak or if I was just outgrowing video games. I was bored, games sucked, they want you to spend with microtransactions. But then this game came and I found myself losing sleep sleeping past 12am when I had to be at work at 6am. Excited to go home and play hours on end. Gaming isn't dead (yet), just AAA games we used to love.
@CH4R10T_TV
@CH4R10T_TV 19 күн бұрын
I don't think George R. R. Martin wrote the base game of Elden Ring either; he was responsible for writing the backstory and history of the world, if memory serves, so any of the timeline of the game that we experience is all FromSoft's team under Miyazaki and Tanimura (who I think should get more credit than he does). My big story complaint is that it felt slightly anticlimactic to just fight Radahn again, even if the fight is very challenging and engaging (albeit somewhat buggy). I do think good AAA games are still being made (Elden Ring might count, I hear there's still good stuff coming out of the God of War franchise, plus there was Devil May Cry 5, may Yakuza if that counts, obviously Baldur's Gate has seen a huge boom in popularity if that counts) but yeah, actually there were still recent updates coming to Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, and that series plus Pillars of Eternity have been some of the best RPGs of their kind in addition to stuff like Divinity, so people should be paying more attention to non-AAA games like those. However, lots of cash grabs (thinking of the Star Wars Battlefront "remaster") or cynically monetized games (Suicide Squad, Diablo 4) combined with games whose design philosophy is deeply flawed and has failed to keep up with the industry (Starfield, Overwatch 2) has made me somewhat cynical. AA studios and Indie games are totally where it's at.
@waldonatorgr984
@waldonatorgr984 19 күн бұрын
@CH4R10T_TV Yeah, a few AAA games are good but a lot if not most are becoming your typical greedy company. Yes. AA and indie is good and a must to phase out these toxic greedy AAA companies (cough cough CoD being sexual assualters and cash grabs). People who only care about money shouldn't be CEO of gaming companies, it should be us nerds who have a passion for gaming and their creation.
@NotShalune
@NotShalune 20 күн бұрын
I think most difficulty issues could be solved by devs just bringing back cheat codes. I adore Elden Ring and Erdtree, it's one of my favorite games. I don't think the bosses are 'too hard' or whatever. But I also just don't enjoy that part of the game. I've never gotten a big sense of enjoyment or excited accomplishment from defeating a hard boss. To me they're a frustrating barrier to getting to experience and explore more of the world and story. And yet I love Elden Ring's combat. 2nd to last boss was my favorite to play. And I appreciate the boss designs on others too. Messmer is incredible. Also despite their frustration, I rarely had that big of an issue on any boss. I 1 or 2 shot a few. The only time I know I spent more than an hour on any boss was probably Radagon and Messmer, maybe original Radahn? But at the same time, I also have little patience for these things. I haven't even fought Malenia 10 times. I just don't want to. I tried twice after reaching Erdtree final boss and got her to 2nd stage on my 1st try. But I just don't care. It's not enjoyable to me. Likewise I just chose not to deal with the frustration of Erdtree's final boss after trying for a while. I think where this comes from for me and others is that Elden Ring opened the doors to a new way of enjoying the game. You could enjoy the Souls games for the story and world. But you couldn't -only- enjoy them for that. If you didn't also enjoy or at least tolerate the difficult bosses, you're blocked from experiencing everything else. This is fine, that's what those games are. It's a clear design decision, and it benefits from setting clear expectations for players so they can quickly tell if the game is for them. Elden Ring is different. You can play Elden Ring for hours and not engage with the real challenge of the game, but then eventually hit a point where you must do so to progress. I'm reminded of World of Warcraft that has SO many diverse features and ways of playing and enjoying it, that they frequently annoy their audience by trying to integrate them. PVE players get annoyed at events that require PVP. PVP players get annoyed at gear gated behind PVE. These are not flaws. But they are challenges that arise from the type of game that Elden Ring is that are very different from their past games, and the audience they attract. Oh, I will say, one thing that I will directly criticize Erdtree bosses for is rushing the player at the start. Either allow players to safely spirit summon or don't include the mechanic at all. Yes it's an easy mode modifier option. But again, why include it at all as an easy mode option if you're going to punish and annoy players for trying to use it? And fights are obviously not tuned to make trying to spirit summon mid-fight an interesting challenge.
@jaymenjanssens720
@jaymenjanssens720 20 күн бұрын
🎉
@politiqueen420
@politiqueen420 20 күн бұрын
You mean you don't one shot everything first try? UGH, unsubscroobed. Can't believe I followed an unskilled gamer. /jk
@rainbowkrampus
@rainbowkrampus 20 күн бұрын
I understand it. Lol, not really, but I think I have a pretty good handle on it and it's getting better all the time. The primary theme is legacy. That was clear from the start. Miyazaki and Marika are very closely aligned. They came from nothing and struggled and strove to build their great kingdom according to their principles. And then there came a time when they had to start thinking about the future. That there was an end coming, whether it was in sight or not, and that failing to set up the next generation to succeed without them is a vital part of their role. Marika (Miyazaki) sets up her (his) children (games) to be her (his) legacy. But realizes that this is not sufficient. That she (he) is not an island and that others who come after her (him) will need some guidance now in order to carry on her (his) legacy in the future. To be strong enough to stand on their own two feet without her (him). We see this now with the changes Miyazaki has made at From since becoming the guy in charge there. They've started up a bunch of new projects and Miyazaki has set up other people from within the company to direct these projects. He is taking more of an overseer role to make sure that their games live up to the standards people have come to expect from From Soft. He's preparing them, and us the audience, for the future. Whatever it may bring. All the rest is elaborations on the things which have always interested Miyazaki. Religion, faith, skepticism of religious authorities, stagnation, decay, the ways traditions can become dangerous etc. etc. Even the complicating factor of George Martin having written a ton of stuff isn't that obscuring, as I've seen some people claim. You just need to know a bit about his interests. If you don't recognize Conan the Barbarian in Godfrey, you're missing out. If you don't recognize Richard III in Messmer, you're missing out. If you don't recognize the Albigensian Crusade in the story of the Misbegotten, you're missing out. It's a new layer. But it's not inscrutable. All that aside. God what a perfect game. In the base game I made a Castlevania inspired build. It was never really complete though as there's no analog for a throwing axe. Well wouldn't you know it? We get a whole slate of throwing weapons so I'm not stuck using consumables and spells to compliment my whip anymore. There's so much stuff packed into that little island. I'm on my 3rd playthrough now and I'm still not tired of it. Helps that all of my builds are fairly diverse (god the whip is such a struggle, Radahn is going to be miserable).
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