"Am I Dreaming, or Did This Just Happen?"

Рет қаралды 307,104

Күн бұрын

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Carlsen, Magnus (2865) - Ostmoe, Geir Sune Tallaksen (2466)
Eliteserien (chess24.com) [5] 2022.02.05
1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.d3 dxe4 4.dxe4 Qxd1+ 5.Kxd1 Nd7 6.Nbd2 e5 7.Nc4 f6 8.Nfd2 Nc5 9.a4 Be6 10.b4 Nd7 11.c3 Nh6 12.Kc2 Nf7 13.Nb3 Nd6 14.Nxd6+ Bxd6 15.Na5 O-O-O 16.Bc4 Bxc4 17.Nxc4 Be7 18.Be3 b6 19.Rhd1 Kc7 20.a5 b5 21.Nb6 Nb8 22.Rxd8 Bxd8 23.a6 Nxa6 24.Nc4 bxc4 25.Rxa6 Kd7 26.Rxa7+ Bc7 27.f4 Kc8 28.fxe5 fxe5 29.Ra8+ Bb8 30.Ra5 Kb7 31.b5 Rc8 32.b6 Rf8 33.Ra1 Rf6 34.g3 h5 35.Kd2 Rd6+ 36.Kc2 Rf6 37.Bc5 h4 38.Rd1 hxg3 39.hxg3 Rg6 40.Rd7+ Ka6 41.Rd8 Kb7 42.Bf2 Rf6 43.Be1 g6 44.Bd2 Bd6 45.Be3 c5 46.g4 Kxb6 47.Re8 Kc6 48.g5 Kd7 49.Ra8 Rf3 50.Kd2 Ke6 51.Ra6 Ke7 52.Ra7+ Kf8 53.Ra4 Be7 54.Rxc4 Rg3 55.Bxc5 Rxg5 56.Bb4 Rg2+ 57.Kd3 Rg3+ 58.Kc2 Bxb4 59.cxb4 Ke7 60.b5 Rf3 61.Rc5 Kd6 62.Rd5+ Ke6 63.Rd8 Ke7 64.Rg8 Kd6 65.Rxg6+ Kc5 66.b6 Rf7 67.Re6 Kd4 68.Kb3 Rf1 69.Ka4 Kxe4 70.Rd6 Rb1 71.Ka5 Kf3 72.Rf6+ Kg3 73.Rf5 e4 74.Rb5 Ra1+ 75.Kb4 Ra8 76.Kc3 e3 77.Kd3 Kf4 78.b7 Rd8+ 79.Ke2 Rb8 80.Rb4+ Ke5 81.Kxe3 Kd5 82.Kd3 Kc6 83.Kc4 Rxb7 84.Rxb7 Kxb7
The Berlin FIDE Grand Prix is the 16-player first of three legs of the 24-player 2022 FIDE Grand Prix that qualifies two players to the Candidates Tournament. Each player competes in two of the three tournaments, with the 16 players divided into four groups who play a double round-robin. The group winners advance to a knockout. Tiebreaks at any stage are played on the following day. Players can earn a maximum of 13 points for winning a leg.
Players receive 90 minutes for 40 moves, followed by 30 minutes to the end of the game, plus a 30-second increment starting from move one. In case of a tie a 15+10 two-game match is played. If still tied, a 3+2 two-game match follows and then, if needed, an Armageddon game, where White has 5 minutes to Black's 4, but a draw counts as a win for Black. If more than two players are tied a round-robin tiebreak is played. Official website: worldchess.com
00:00 Hello Everyone!
00:51 Game Starts!
01:40 Completely New Game!
05:50 Pause The Video!
12:00 It Was In This Position
12:55 Contributions
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Пікірлер: 473

@ashutoshgawali9147 2 жыл бұрын

Magnus lost more points drawing this game than he gained after winning the Tata Steel. 2900 is impossible and only Magnus is the one who can make me eat my words.

@eatyourcreal9365 2 жыл бұрын

Chessmasterkzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@Wesley-kk2ir 2 жыл бұрын

2900 is impossible in this era but when 2800s become more numerous we will definitely see a 2900.

@razvanfodor5653 2 жыл бұрын

If he keeps playing like this for sure it's impossible.

@Axiomatic75 2 жыл бұрын

His highest rating ever was 2882 so surely 2900 isn't impossible. It's still unlikely but Magnus might just achieve it.

@boxnow8774 2 жыл бұрын

@@Axiomatic75 He actually got to 2889 live, even. He was ony 11 points away at his absolute best playing in 2019. He just needs to not play strong players who can make a draw against him, who have such low ratings they'll lower his rating by five points if they draw.

@dfchang813 2 жыл бұрын

Just insane. One draw lost more points than he won in entire Tata Steel.

@eatyourcreal9365 2 жыл бұрын

Chessmasterkzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@MattCorbin96 2 жыл бұрын

Heavy is the head that wears the crown

@michaelsorochev1357 2 жыл бұрын

Tata Steel which he won! Insanity indeed

@Sahnicamanish 2 жыл бұрын

@@MattCorbin96 true

@cientistablackpillado282 2 жыл бұрын

It's time for Magnus start a smurf account LMAO

@giovannicorno1247 2 жыл бұрын

Magnus had winning chances twice and missed them, this is not normal for him, he usually exploits the smallest advantages. Probably he underestimated his opponent too much.

@BenjoCodeburn 2 жыл бұрын

Makes me think it was deliberate for some strange reason. I can't believe he missed those tactics

@mardy9940 2 жыл бұрын

For me, Magnus allowing the queen trade had indicated it..

@ParleLeVu 2 жыл бұрын

Interestingly, "Tallaksen" means "the number salmon" in Norwegian.

@fbryn0688 2 жыл бұрын

I don’t think so. Geir sunne is one the best chess puzzle makers in the world.

@Traumatree 2 жыл бұрын

It is because his ear-piece connected to his Stockfish engine stop working midway through the game....

@michaelrizka 2 жыл бұрын

Ostmoe: *earn a draw Agadmator: "Congratulations to Ostmoe for achieving this great victory"

@deadpool8580 2 жыл бұрын

It's an absolute win for the guy playing against Magnus for few specific reasons: 1) He drew with world champion 2) He deliberately went into an endgame in the early stage of the game knowing Magnus is an endgame beast. 3) He was playing with the Balck pieces.

@ianwhitchurch864 2 жыл бұрын

'In the endgame, the Gods have placed Carlsen'

@fortytwo9517 2 жыл бұрын

Black*

@RishabhSharma10225 2 жыл бұрын

Imagine if he played the Wihte pieces

@montellacraft2738 2 жыл бұрын

@@RishabhSharma10225 same kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@peterwinters8587 2 жыл бұрын

4) 1 + 1 = 2

@muellernikolai8630 2 жыл бұрын

this guy will definitely be telling his friends at the library and at the bar about the time he drew Magnus Carlsen

@locktherocka252 2 жыл бұрын

If Magnus wants to reach 2900, risking playing against below 2600 players isn’t logical as a draw will lose over 3 points

@williamrobert9898 2 жыл бұрын

I don't understand why do people think Magnus wants to get to that Rating in a few tournaments? It's a long term goal it's not like he wants to get it this year

@eatyourcreal9365 2 жыл бұрын

Chessmasterkzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@locktherocka252 2 жыл бұрын

@@williamrobert9898 I never said it was short term, it’s going to take long time of small rating increases most likely and these draws hinder that.

@greninjafw 2 жыл бұрын

@@williamrobert9898 because that's not how it works If he can't do it short term, he can't do it long term It only makes sense if you take 1 step back, but take 3 steps forward But for him, since his rating is so high, it's always going to be 3 steps back, 1 step forward That will not change in the short term, or the long term

@williamrobert9898 2 жыл бұрын

@@locktherocka252 Well he's the highest rated player so everyone is lower rated than him, I understand drawing against someone who's 100 points lower than you is much better than drawing against someone who's 400 points lower than you but these things happen and he has a chance to gain at least 2 rating points back since there are still 4 rounds to go

@rockmyworldmusic 2 жыл бұрын

3:28 "It's a really interesting idea, except it doesn't work..." He just summarized all my games.

@Just_a-guy 2 жыл бұрын

because* It makes it more funny in my opinion

@beauknows93 2 жыл бұрын

love what you do agad thank you for being up 24/7 and taking care of our chess addiction

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Yessir kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@harrysingh118 2 жыл бұрын

In order to achieve 2900, he needs his opponents to-rated at least 2800. 2900 is simply not possible

@arvindiyer6012 2 жыл бұрын

There are literally just 1 other player rated 2800..

@davidbenz5787 2 жыл бұрын

Magnus just needs to win games. Of course u cant get 2900 if u draw people with 400 elo

@619Gotenks 2 жыл бұрын

@@arvindiyer6012 yep, Alireza is the only other player.

@Axiomatic75 2 жыл бұрын

It's not impossible if he actually performs at the 2900 level for the next few dozen games. He already reached 2882 before. But is it _likely_? Probably not.

@JeremyRobertWalker 2 жыл бұрын

the same logic which made Magnus 5x WC is the same logic which will make him 2900+

@jccusell 2 жыл бұрын

I didnt realize is strategy was going to be to defeat 1.2 million 2400's.

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Yessir kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@jeffm1083 2 жыл бұрын

You think he picks who plays in the tournaments? 😂😂😂

@f.lundamo8906 2 жыл бұрын

Or die trying

@jccusell 2 жыл бұрын

@@jeffm1083 No I think I was making a joke 😂😂😂

@nyztan0 2 жыл бұрын

This was a fun game too watch you analyze Agad, great content as always.

@equal7958 2 жыл бұрын

Q) Who's David Kimura, the number of time he has donated just blows my mind.

@snickle1980 2 жыл бұрын

Well I hope that answers your question. David Kimura is only for fans over 18. He's involved with "Butter" I assume. 😐

@akshayrajadnya5624 2 жыл бұрын

@@snickle1980 😂😂😂

@sovyonok5565 2 жыл бұрын

@@snickle1980 I swear how these spam bots that all say the same are not addressed by KZfaq is beyond me.

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

@@sovyonok5565 yessir kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@erikwestrheim804 2 жыл бұрын

@@snickle1980 LOL

@temetnosce2099 2 жыл бұрын

Its 4am. I should be dreaming, but I'm watching chess. Which is even better.

@equal7958 2 жыл бұрын

Where?

@kermit8173 2 жыл бұрын

@@equal7958 At ya moms

@Shreyy17 2 жыл бұрын

@@kermit8173 it's 2022 and u still use mama jokes

@kermit8173 2 жыл бұрын

@@Shreyy17 Thanks for your 2 cents.

@equal7958 2 жыл бұрын

@@kermit8173 man, what annoyed you in my 5 letter question?

@captain_context9991 2 жыл бұрын

When Magnus plays these local Norwegian events I dont think he takes it as seriously as when he plays for big money out in the world. He will be playing friends and people he sees a lot. Its a whole different atmosphere.

@luka2549 2 жыл бұрын

It's different but he can't be trolling since it is rated

@kunalsingh4418 2 жыл бұрын

@@luka2549 magnus isn't aiming to be 2900 this year. If he becomes that sensitive about rting he won't enjoy chess anymore and it will be counterproductive. Magnus himself said that it will take 3-5 years. It's a pity Magnus loses 3 points drawing with 2600 but that's just how it is. It's this reason why 2900 is such a feat. Also hedging all bets on big tournaments will be too much pressure for even Carlsen.

@luka2549 2 жыл бұрын

@@kunalsingh4418 well of course he isn't gonna take it this year, but you see, he wins Tata steel against strongest players in the world and then just ruins it all with one draw so yea, he can't troll like that fr

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

@@luka2549 cheess kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@soson001 2 жыл бұрын

Nice one, like all those precise moves by Geir.

@josefserf1926 2 жыл бұрын

Playing much lower rated players can reverse the pressure. Magnus has far more to lose. Easier to gain points against higher rated players once you are near your peak rating.

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Grraulll kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@orilachman8853 2 жыл бұрын

Another wonderful analysis, improving Sunday as always

@braveulysees 2 жыл бұрын

Painful for magnus. It's gonna be a long slog to get to 2900. He needs to win these games but well done to his opponent

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Better call kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@scatJuice 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome channel! I really enjoy that nothing is cut, it feels very raw and spontaneous.

@richardlindquist5936 2 жыл бұрын

A draw, and yet so brutal for Magnus. Ouch!

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Yessir kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@lordstarship827 2 жыл бұрын

#suggestion Can you cover Richard Rapport vs Vladimir Fedoseev in the Grand Prix? It was an amazing game with a very active king becoming an attacking piece.

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Yessir kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@themisfitoddity 2 жыл бұрын

„It’s a brilliant idea, because it doesn‘t work“ wow! Never thought I am capable of magnus-like moves

@bobbyfishstix1189 2 жыл бұрын

Great to catch an agadmator video at 4am

@xethnyrrow 2 жыл бұрын

That was probably the easiest pause the video moment I've gotten in over 3 years of watching this channel (and I suck at Chess) but Magnus missed it?! He must have been really off that day.

@Storytimewithardi 2 жыл бұрын

Wow. What a game. Great analysis as well. Quick thing is I saw a few times Agad didn’t drag the pieces with the mouse and probably clicked a button instead which made watching the game a little strange. Other than that, brilliant summary by Agad as always!!

@gotatochigs314 2 жыл бұрын

I would've loved to see a pause the video moment at 1:17, after Qxd1. Agadmator would pull it off so well.

@paulmaul2186 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the videos.

@jorgenhofmeester1360 2 жыл бұрын

@12:07 ... "and it is now on move 84 that we have a draw by insufficient material" Love your understatement ...

@crnimate2434 2 жыл бұрын

Dobro si izanalizirao..respekt

@divyanshujain5809 2 жыл бұрын

Very exciting match!

@77seven77 2 жыл бұрын

Love you agad!

@eatyourcreal9365 2 жыл бұрын

Yessirkzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@gunhann 2 жыл бұрын

I have no doubt about Magnus's super fast calculation speed but I guess he focused on calculating different lines which shows his intiution wasn't with him for that game.

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Better call kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@stephanebelizaire3627 2 жыл бұрын

Bravo to both GM !

@TheMarksT 2 жыл бұрын

Quite a battle!

@eladmenahem2253 2 жыл бұрын

I like the way Magnus played, creative and interesting chess

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Yessir kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@Nippleless_Cage 2 жыл бұрын

No complaints about this kind of GM draw :)

@mattthomas214 2 жыл бұрын

While you may not have been sure that you were using the correct pronunciation, I've always found that you put great care into how you pronounce the names of the players. I've always appreciated that about this channel.

@KT-dq6wv 2 жыл бұрын

Damn that is a bummer. The second tactic was pretty easy to spot. Magnus must be pissed off

@TitusRex 2 жыл бұрын

Epic battle.

@carlosbonilla9159 2 жыл бұрын

I was sure from the title it was going to be Magnus playing the Evans Gambit... What a crazy way to play against a Caro-Kann.

@georgeallee16 2 жыл бұрын

Honestly haven’t seen Magnus miss this many ideas in quite some time

@arunbeckham8384 2 жыл бұрын

So from here on, it's gonna be much more interesting.

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Better call kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@alexanderjulian554 2 жыл бұрын

great when one end up w just two kings ; forever travelling around eight by eight world ; snarling at each other

@timmyshore3755 2 жыл бұрын

heckuva game y’all

@checkmate337 2 жыл бұрын

It happened 🔥

@divinesackitey6938 Жыл бұрын

What a beautiful game

@barryweaver8833 2 жыл бұрын

I must say it is refreshing to see the greatest of the greats be human too.

@Dybbouk 2 жыл бұрын

In the opening I am just looking to get my pieces out and castle. But these guys are already trying to secure important squares.

@primeobjective5469 2 жыл бұрын

Alright, alright, alright!

@chiknsld3856 2 жыл бұрын

kudos for trying at black's name, sounds like a some sort of advanced german soup

@infernalflamezz7480 2 жыл бұрын

Nice and early EU upload, thanks!

@TomJones-tx7pb 2 жыл бұрын

Something went wrong for Magnus here. I cannot imagine him normally missing Bb6.

@Mompellion 2 жыл бұрын

#suggestion I'd love to see the return of the #PhotoChallenge! Big fan of it ever since the early days of your channel!

@StankySwish 2 жыл бұрын

Great thumbnail ❤️

@davidgriffiths7696 2 жыл бұрын

Poor Magnus rolling the big rock up the mountain

@DakotaTipton 2 жыл бұрын

Not sure how advanced the end game was but I thought it was thrilling. They definitely understood how to dance around the board in order to keep each other at bay. Like a sword fight with neither landing a strike

@spartancticonsultoriait6356 2 жыл бұрын

I'm not dreaming but I should, since it's 3 am around here!

@madsandretans5443 2 жыл бұрын

Geir already beat a young Magnus all the way back in 2004-05 I think, Norwegian Junior Team Championship. He also beat GM Jon Ludwig Hammer in the 2005 Norwegian Championship. Absolutely a decent player already from young age.

@josefserf1926 2 жыл бұрын

Wow!

@SirSidi 2 жыл бұрын

I am so happy that they didn't agree to the draw and continued playing until insufficient material instead

@tyozaa 2 жыл бұрын

1:51 ah yes, what a brilliant move, Nd6 why didn't I think of that one

@euler8852 2 жыл бұрын

Agad, you can put the player's ratings on layout, below the photos. #suggestion

@SamuelPearlman 2 жыл бұрын

"IS THIS THE REAL LIFE?"

@n20games52 2 жыл бұрын

Oh, the pain.

@trevorweinbrecht7142 2 жыл бұрын

Kinda weird to see magnus miss those tactics.. like, is he playing with his guard down or what? You'd imagine he would and could calculate that winning pawn push.. whats goin on

@robertr7923 2 жыл бұрын

I can imagine that he let's his guard down if he plays someone 400 points lower. The guy is not even GM. Magnus probably thought it would be an easy win

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

@@robertr7923 grraulll kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@ienjoyapples 2 жыл бұрын

Magnus tends to avoid tactics over getting a endgame he thinks he can grind out to a win. I'm sure he saw Bb6, but he went for the endgame where he has a passed pawn and black has weak doubled pawns he can target. Problem is Ostmoe played the endgame perfectly.

@IvanWongHongKong 2 жыл бұрын

@@ienjoyapples Bb6 is such an easy win though, not complicated tactic to spot and calculate

@anthonysellers6455 2 жыл бұрын

Seems like RA8+ followed by Bb8 blocking with white swooping in with Ba8 attacking the pinned piece winning the exchange and the game

@Ykotb08 2 жыл бұрын

Bb6 is so easy to find in classical chess for magnus, not sure of the time magnus had but I dont think he was in time trouble

@martinsz441 2 жыл бұрын

Congrats

@bwgbwg1529 2 жыл бұрын

I think we all can imagine in what great mood Magnus was after this game....:D

@PawpiChoolo 2 жыл бұрын

Watching 5:45am here in the US..boy do I need sleep but agad…

@jatinchadha7740 2 жыл бұрын

Magnus should do more of tactics frenzy.

@displeasedone 2 жыл бұрын

I bet Karjakin is somewhere having an absolutely wonderful evening

@johnnydoe3603 2 жыл бұрын

Dude had his Endgame on Lockdown 😅👍🏽 GG

@DEBIEL918 2 жыл бұрын

Damn, even I saw 6:10 and I'm like a 1600-1700 player on lichess rapid. Magnus was not in the zone that day.

@StevenStJohn-kj9eb 2 жыл бұрын

Magnus plays. In the history of chess there are always stories of players avoiding each other, from Staunton avoiding Morphy to players avoiding open tournaments today. Gotta give Magnus credit for putting his rating on the line over and over again.

@dont-want-no-wrench 2 жыл бұрын

magnus is a true sportsman, in addition to being the goat

@erer6068 2 жыл бұрын

Magnus never said he would reach 2900 This year

@alistermatheson4967 2 жыл бұрын

Hmm seems to me that Magnus plays lots of different lines in some games / Tournaments in an attempt to find variations against stronger -players. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but it does make him stronger

@Sjeudorf Жыл бұрын

You actually should play rook a8, and when black blocks with the bishop, you should play bishop a7 and pick up the bishop

@neversayxever 2 жыл бұрын

For like 2 mins in the beginning all you could hear is "knight to"

@victorchrist9899 2 жыл бұрын

Carlsen knows what he is doing. The this game played like a waltz. Accurately orchestrated.

@linminhtoo 2 жыл бұрын

Waltz? he missed a winning tactic that wasn't that hard to spot...

@victorchrist9899 2 жыл бұрын

@@linminhtoo that's the point, and more. The dance reached two high points, each gradually settling . Then the two rooks started moving in a well orchestrated pace until the kings were left alone. In all, Geri was like...yes, let's Tango.

@kristofr.691 2 жыл бұрын

#suggestion Can you make a video about the Rapport - Fedoseev match? It was played in the Fide Grand prix. Just an amazing game imo

@ffn8917 2 жыл бұрын

Chess is the bess

@cygnustsp 2 жыл бұрын

Damn, Magnus. Even I saw it immediately.

@markpatterson766 2 жыл бұрын

At move 6 or 8?

@ReonKad3 2 жыл бұрын

he misses obvious wins often. he had 1 move win va vidit aswell.

@ribbonsofnight 2 жыл бұрын

@@ReonKad3 When an engine says that 1 move is the difference between a drawn position and a winning position that doesn't mean it's a 1 move win. It's also frequently said to be an obvious win by people using an engine evaluation.

@markpatterson766 2 жыл бұрын

Agad great with pronunciation, dodged it a lot in this one but the players surname sounded like it might be perfect.

@GardEngebretsen 2 жыл бұрын

Østmoe was pretty good. But the way he pronounced "Tallaksen" was a slaughter. But we don't expect foreigners to be able to pronounce Norwegian names.

@SandSeven 2 жыл бұрын

6:18 at pause the video and find the move Ra8 is best.

@bryanmellado2874 2 жыл бұрын

Daaaamn

@naturalmystic67 2 жыл бұрын

Surprised he missed that Bishop move.

@spartancticonsultoriait6356 2 жыл бұрын

🙌

@dennisgannon 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for pointing out the missed opportunities Magnus had to win.

@muhhm8972 2 жыл бұрын

Better call kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l5eabNKop9vblIU.html

@EpicVideoMaster11 2 жыл бұрын

@josephotunga9608 2 жыл бұрын

damn that draw was pure end game genius by black

@joseenriquemunar8901 2 жыл бұрын

as we say: high risks, high rewards

@amasiaarakelyan9665 2 жыл бұрын

"You can also maybe consider developing some other pieces" 😂 He was almost annoyed by knight C5

@rickharold7884 2 жыл бұрын

Oh man. That’s not 2900 playing. Dude he’s got to win these. Esp w chances.

@Gilsworth 2 жыл бұрын

I find that my most devastating losses are against opponents that I know I would win 9 times out of 10. The moment you underestimate someone that is their chance. I can't say if this was a factor here, maybe not at all, but those who are 200-300 points lower rated than me tend to have a better win rate against me than those who are 50-100 points under me. Seems counterintuitive, but I think on a psychological level there is some merit to be had here.