Great news Daniel. If what we’re doing isn’t working, could be time to find something new to try. Have fun with this new technique. 😀

I’m very happy to oblige. All the best 😀

That’s great Angel. It sounds like you’ve really caught on now. I’ve just posted a video to celebrate my first million views on KZfaq with my considered top three tips from all the advice/ teaching that I’ve given in over 470 videos. Have a look if you’re interested. 😀

Thanks. That’s very encouraging for me to hear. Yes, we don’t learn by being overwhelmed. Pull back to subjects you have a chance with. It’s more fun as well. 😀

Thanks. I suppose I feel that most of my subscribers are self taught and that following edges as lines seems to be the more intuitive approach. But it’s a good point that charcoal is a great medium for subtlety with light and volume. Thanks for your thoughts 😀

I totally with Stephen. I am self taught, and made all the mistakes he listed in this video and others 😂. For that, I am grateful for his videos ❤️

Yes, the 3 Dimensionality of the form is more obvious outside. But to be forewarned about photos is to be forearmed. 😀

Thanks Bruce. That’s very pleasing and encouraging to hear. Hope your drawings are progressing well. All the best. 😀

hi, please watch Watchman on the Wall 88 on KZfaq

Their tutorials really are among the best!

Thanks Justine, this is very encouraging to hear. Have fun with your new drawing knowledge. 😀

Yes, I’m not so sure that’s a helpful way of learning this. 😀

It's still important for beginners who don't yet have the eye or understanding to draw forms. If you tell them to think about the construction, at best they'll think of a generic building or bird instead of adapting that knowledge to what they see. At worst, they'll think of a 2D symbol instead. Personally tho, I prefer starting with shapes and values, such as by using negative space. It's more fun and rewarding (looks nicer), and teaches to draw what you see without the trap of focusing on outlines.

That sounds great Tom. I’m glad you’ve got some ideas to try. Hope they work out for you. 😀

Thanks. I painted in oils for ten years before I started drawing and I’m sure that has informed my thinking and drawing significantly. Thanks for sharing your experience. 😀

@@stephentraversart Yup! I've found that alot of the principals of drawing with lines are helpful for painting, but there's also plenty of things painting has taught me as-well. While I may be headed more into the painting direction now, I find tutorials like this to still convey fundamental information, regardless of style.

True. Glad to have been helpful. 😀

Just wanted to say hello and that I appreciate your Domenico Angelo reference profile pic! Haha I studied the French school of fencing though with that grip because Im not some layman Italian who uses over hand force like some filthy barbarian. Is that a dig at you?... I mean its not French 😋 I do find it odd though that there are a lot of fencers who also like to draw. :)

@@Brosephus you sound like you have a sense of humor as well. I happen to be a fencer who likes to draw and paint.

@@tcfencing9772 Yeah Im just really happy to meet another fencer in the comments! I really hope you keep fencing and showing people. Its such a super under appreciated hobby I cant help but nerd out on it and the joy it brings haha. Anyways I wish you the best and hope you have a great day!!! Take care brother!! :)

Sounds like excellent advice to me. I painted in oils for 10 years before I started drawing, and I know my painting experience informed my drawing techniques. All the best to your students with it. 😀

And it’s excellent advice as well. Hope i works well with your drawing. 😀

Yes, your experience seems to be exactly the issue I’m talking about. All the best continuing to put this into practice in future. 😀

Thanks for such a kind response Maria. I’m very glad it’s been helpful to your art. 😀

Yes. Probably one exception is a lot of comic art, where I think line remains more the focus, because of the need for pared back artwork, though visualising form would still be vital I think. 😀

That’s wonderful Rex! Thanks for telling me.

They can each be helpful in different ways when we draw. Perhaps that’s a new video. Thanks for sharing your observations. Very helpful. 😀

I don’t know of this myself, so can’t comment on it , but thanks for the suggestion. 😀

Seeing what you’ve missed before is one of the signs you’re improving. So now you use your new awareness to make changes in the way you draw, to get more of the effect you can see in your mind. All the best with it, and I hope you still find the enjoyment in it all. 😀

I think the video describes it all. But try and consciously think about it before you put pen on paper for a while, and see if it doesn’t improve how you place your lines a bit. All the best with it Peter. 😀

Haha. Glad it was helpful. 😀

Great to hear Duncan. I’ve only just learnt that we can adjust the speed when we watch KZfaq via the little cog. 😀

Wonderful Diane. I painted in oils for 10 years before I started drawing, so I know my painting method informed my drawing in so many ways. 😀

Thanks. All the best with your drawing 😀

Hmmm. Sounds like there was quite a bit missing from your art class. But it’s never too late to learn. All the best with it 😀

Couldn’t agree more. What we draw starts with our thinking, and flows through our observation before a pen touches the paper. 😀

I’m really glad as well Chiara. Welcome aboard. 😀

Great to hear Lewis. Hope it works for you. 😀

Have you seen my video for starting to draw later in life? Might have some helpful thoughts for you. But I’m glad this one has made sense. All the best with your drawing. Never too old to be amazing! 😀

@Stephen Travers Art No, I havnt its my first visit here, but I will look at that. I wish I'd started years ago, but yes, you're right it's never too late, thankyou I look forward to catching up on your lessons.

Thanks Nikita. Glad it was helpful. 😀

All? Haven’t counted for a while, but I think it’s well over 300! At this rate there’ll be a video on just about everything including the kitchen sink soon. Thanks for your enthusiasm. 😀

@@stephentraversart 300? I'm pretty sure I've seen 7! Guess I should look further

Glad to help out. All the best with them. I’ve just posted a video to celebrate my first million views on KZfaq with my considered top three tips from all the advice/ teaching that I’ve given in over 470 videos. Have a look if you’re interested. 😀

Welcome back Alex. I’m glad to have helped you along. 😀

Great to hear. Welcome aboard. Hope there’s much more enjoyment ahead for you. 😀

Thanks Major. I appreciate your kind words. 😀

I find drawing via negative space an extremely valuable technique in various situations, but still find having a solid grasp of overall general form essential when I start to draw. Glad this video was helpful for you in ways. 😀

@@stephentraversart Yes very helpful thanks! I need to keep growing as an artist all the time.

We all do 😀

Thanks Jan. Sounds like you have a good grasp of a very helpful direction for your drawings. All the best with it. 😀

In some ways we are all always beginners, so don’t worry about labels but rather enjoy the journey. That understanding about form will be so helpful with any subject. And ‘revelation’ is such a strong word, I’m so encouraged to hear how helped you’ve been. All the best as you keep onwards. 😀

I’m so pleased you’ve found it helpful Jason. All the best with your drawing 😀

Great way of putting it.

Edges are vital to consider, especially in silhouette, even more so, but my point is that particularly for self taught artists, a preoccupation with line can be at the expense of the overall form of the object. Except in deliberate stylistic drawings, I think line should be subservient to the form. It’s the form we are drawing, not a series of lines. When we first look at a drawing, we should see the overall form ahead of lines. I come across many drawings where I see outline ahead of the form because it it too heavy handed and emphasised. This has a flattening effect. But it becomes a tricky issue to debate without examples. 😀

@Stephen Travers Art Definitely agree. Lines have a kind of duality to them in their symbology. I have a hard time describing it too, but I'll try. Lines can represent reality, meaning a representation of something we can see. But, a line also can be used like a language, it's the artist telling the viewer this is what I mean, the same way words are used to describe. The breadth of the line compared to the nearest whites of the page, or whether a line exists or doesn't (though it may still be implied) helps the viewer of the artwork decide what the symbology is trying to say. The best way to compare would be like a line used in manga, the images may be flat but that's not the point. The images are read like words, and that helps the flow of the narrative. While on the other hand, the work of an artist like Joseph Pennell the line is used to convey a sense of realism and keep the eyes on the page (I really enjoy this juxtaposition. One artist trying to get its viewer to leave the page, another trying to keep the viewer to stay!). A more easier way to explain this would be perhaps to say that all art is abstract, but the levels of abstraction vary. And I think it's these levels of abstraction that give the artist the most freedom in choice. Glad I found your channel, by the way. Thanks!

I usually try and get the viewer to stay on the page but to move around it. I appreciate your telling me your thoughts. 😀

That sounds like the opposite of what I do. I deconstruct the object into smaller component 3D shapes. But it sounds like fun. 😀

Glad you found it so helpful Emmanuel. Have fun using it in your drawing. 😀

Haha. That’s great! All the best with your drawing. 😀

Haha. It you think it would be helpful, why not give it a go? 😀

Best way to remember it is to put it into practice straight away. Time for a drawing, I think. 😀

Thanks Johan. So much about good drawing has nothing to do with the pen. 😀

Glad they’re helpful. Please help my channel and tell your friends about it. Have fun. 😀

And thanks for your kind SuperThanks 😀

You better believe it! I think I’m a better teacher and artist than video producer!😀

Glad it made sense to you Jerome. 😀

That’s great Marius. Just what I was hoping. 😀

Scale, proportions, there’s no shortcuts when it comes to freehand drawing. All the best with it. 😀

That’s great to hear Francisco. Appreciate you telling me. 😀

Haha. Re manga style, we don’t have to draw the form explicitly, but rather visualise the form as we draw it. To be thinking capturing the shape and feel of the form with our mark, rather than laying down an outline. Make sense?😀

@@stephentraversart My problems are keeping that 2d lineart look and/or striking a balance between that and a 3d/painterly render, though I've gotten better at that deliberately practicing it + looking at other people's line and wash images and wips XD

Thanks. Always encouraging to hear this 😀

That’s great to hear Benyam. Of course, I hope you will watch more than one video!😀

You sound like you have a solid foundation for your art Michael. Yes, we need to restore the depth to our photos before we start to reference them. I think the issue shows itself in portraits more than other subjects. It’s great that your art is still bringing you such joy. 😀

Thanks Scott. I actually hardly ever briefs, but I often try and visualise trees without their leaves as part of my drawing process. Whatever moves our drawing closer to what we want is a good process for us. Have fun. 😀

They visit when our yard is overgrown. It gives them safe spaces from the big birds!😀

@@stephentraversart We have a family of Superb Fairywrens who nest in our garden as well during springtime. They love our hedge. :)

Great. I hope it translates hugely into your drawing. All the best with it!😀

So encouraging to hear Debbie. Thanks 😀

Excellent 👏 My pleasure 😀

Agreed. I love Matisse’s work. But I’m sure he got to such pared back line work from having mastered form and line in a more realism-focussed way. You make good points. And for the sake of a good thumbnail, some statements have to be under qualified. 😀

Thanks. The green tape is low adhesive tape to hold my reference and drawing paper in place while I draw since I’m videoing all the time. I did put some on one 0.3 mm pen so I didn’t have to keep checking them all to find it. Yes, I do like COPIC pens. When I started drawing in ink I bought 5-6 brands and COPIC seemed to work best for me. I tried the Sketch markers for adding tone shortly after and liked how they handled, so kept using them. But they’re not cheap, at least in Australia. 😀

Thanks. Glad it was helpful. 😀

Glad to hear this Robert. Thanks 😀

Of course, we’re all free to hatch the way we think works best for what we want to achieve, but I hope I’ve given you more choice. 😀

Sounds like you’ve sorted it just fine. Well done. 😀

Glad it was helpful for you. 😀

Yes, I’m sorry. I do everything on my phone with the free iMovie app. I’m really not an IT guy and it has become a bit glitchy. I am looking at something a bit upgraded, but this is all in the twilight zone of my comfort zones.

Thanks 😀

That’s kind Alan practice brings improvement, so keep at it, and you now have some new techniques to think about and try. An why shouldn’t you do better than me with it!😀

@@stephentraversart I just reread my post. You probably figured it out but I meant to “I don’t always think my brain can …”

👍Autocorrect gets us all. 😆

@@stephentraversart I call mine fat fingers syndrome. They aren’t actually. More like piano playing fingers.

Glad it was relevant, for you. Something you can think about next drawing. 😀

I guess I’m trying to have the best of both worlds! 😀

Every drawing can benefit from using some mixture of contour, measurement, and constructed forms. Paintings build on drawings by adding areas of value, which can also be represented by shapes. What I've noticed is that different styles of drawing will emphasize a different starting point for the observation; if your focus is on making stylized cartoons and abstraction, starting with a blind contour sketch is a great idea because it automatically simplifies what you're looking at - it's fast, it captures a lot of information, and there isn't a lot of decision making. But if you're trying to make it technically accurate to the original photo you may want to use a grid or other measuring devices so that the proportion is locked into place. If you start with the perspective and build a horizon line and perspective grids, you get a feeling of three-dimensional space which helps you build realistic-looking imaginary scenes, but now you have to observe and simplify what you see before you start making the lines, which makes it harder to observe all of the proportions. And you can mix those attributes to make some decisions about what the image is primarily: it's very hard to draw organic objects *only* by using construction, but as Stephen shows with the foliage and the bird, you can aim to keep it in mind during the drawing, while still relying on an outline as a starting point.

@@JH-pe3ro good points. I still find it interesting that the instructions are kind of opposite: "Stop painting things, paint shapes" but "Stop drawing shapes, draw forms". And even to the point where one says in practise "The medium is 2D, so think in 2D" and one is "The things are 3D, so think in 3D". Now, I get that painting and drawing are very different things, but still. Also some of the drawing courses encourage you to sketch using forms (spheres, cubes, cylinders etc.) and only then drawing the shape around them. Some, on the other hand, teach a method of using reference picture, turning it upside down and drawing really exclusively the shapes, in an effort basically to be able to use vision like a camera. I think one could say that there are multiple ways to approach to do this, and there are no right or wrong ones. Maybe it would be better to communicate these as "If you are struggling with your results not looking good, here's a technique to consider". Though that probably wouldn't make a punchy title for a KZfaq video...

​@@fintux It took me years to realize that some teachers use a 3D approach and some use a 2D. I use a 3D approach for most of my art work, both drawing and painting. When I get stuck as how to render something I use a 2D approach. Only using a 2D approach for me is not an interesting way to see the world.

I haven’t seen that video, but I painted in oils for ten years before I did any drawing. And my subjects were mostly tree canopies and Australian wildflowers. I have no doubt that contributed to my focus on form and tone, rather than outline and line. And it seems to have been an effective focus. 😀

Actually, I think ‘If your drawing technique is disappointing you, try this…! ‘ would be a great KZfaq video title. 😀

My pleasure Kevin😀

And yes I know you can place the vanishing points everywhere on or off the page potentially having any possible distortion.

If I’ve understood you correctly, you are in this way visualising the 3D form in your mind. An excellent thing to do. 😀

Although there will line up in the one horizontal line, the eye level, that goes across the scene. 😀

@@stephentraversart yeah I look for the top and bottom lines of objects/shapes. Knowing where the horizon line is placed does help too.

No, but with greater understanding of the three dimensionality of the underlying form, we have extra information in our thinking as we draw the line. This is particularly helpful when we draw directly in ink, and can’t erase anything. I think I said ‘outline’ is not a good focus. Reducing the object to a silhouette line to be copied is a much more difficult task to do accurately once we are drawing irregular, organic shapes. But this is just the thinking I find helpful. If you’re drawing works well for you another way, stay with it. All the best. 😀

For me I find outline so frustrating that it has kept me from even starting to draw. I don't get good results I get something that obviously doesn't look like the real world. I'm now in my thirties and find that form-first techniques like digital sculpture and painting unlock abilities to see, abstract, and represent that I didn't know I had.

If it gets good results, there’s no problem. But I see so many drawings where outline has been at the expense of the overall form because the focus on line meant the shape hadn’t been adequately observed, and then captured in the line. 😀

No more or less James than the people around them do the same things in whatever context their lives provide. 😀

That’s interesting Dean. This is how I produce the drawings I produce. Why not give it a go and see how it works for you. All the best. 😀

I think it partly depends of our art journey. It’s probably less likely if we’ve painted more, as form is more prominent in most painting process. But in drawing, particularly coming from a childhood copying comics, outline becomes more of a focus. Trying to think form and value is less intuitive holding a 0.1 mm black fine liner than it is holding a brush with a chosen value laden on it, I think. 😀

@@stephentraversart regretting my sayings, you made me realize that at a very early age I also used to observe this way. I just became so familiarized with the new one that I even forgot the other. Haha Anyway, I've been seeing your videos and they are very educational, concise, clear and interesting! Congratulations on your content, greetings from Brazil.

It has certainly been a helpful area for me to consider. All the best with your drawing. 😀

Yes, a few people including me have noticed it. 😀 The problem is I am a very low-IT older person and I do everything on my iPhone using the free iMovie app. Things are becoming a bit glitchy, which combined with all the mistakes I make during on-camera delivery or voiceovers means lots of edits are required. Perhaps a newer iPhone would help. A few years ago I’d never made a video, but it is suddenly now my life. But I am trying to improve on these issues. In the meantime I hope the info in the videos is helpful enough to compensate. 😀

@@stephentraversart The info definitely is helpful enough to compensate. 👍🏻

The second versions took longer both because I was talking more as I had more to explain, and because by focusing on form I had more to think about and then to put into a more accurate drawing, all of which takes time. I put more line work on the bird because I wanted to emphasise the form which was guiding my thinking. I didn’t need to do this on the first bird because I was just thinking about outline. But it would have helped make my point if I’d added some flat banding lines on the first bird’s body. I added tone to the back of the windows to emphasise the correct perspective pattern established. But again, if I’d added it to the first drawing as well, it would have emphasised the visual confusion that the line work was already producing. My apologies if I said shape instead of form. I try and catch those sorts of slip ups in the editing. Looks like I slipped up twice there. All the best with your drawing 😀

In the end, the question is ‘does this line drawn this way create the effect I’m wanting? All the best with your art Eli. 😀

Thanks. Yes, I know. I’m trying. 😀

Ironically in my most recent portraits I technically "traced" a lot more on top of the reference than I used to; often at least 3 times at different levels of detail. But I'm not tracing the outline; I'm outlining regions of identical or similar value at different levels of detail. And then I simplify those on different layers (I'm mainly painting digitally); and then I draw a new set of sketches off to the side of the reference. Well, to be fair I still often when starting up, do one lazy outline trace; but that's more so I can see if I the reference image still inspires me when I just see the rough outline and not the full glorious details of the photo. And I usually discard this trace immediately. Especially when using someone else's stock photos as reference I've realised I prefer technically "bad" photos of interesting subjects rather than flawless photos; since an underexposed and blurry photo looks just as good or better when reduced to an outline; while a perfect studio photo will at best look almost as good in painting form not better. Even if I could perfectly copy the photo it feels rather pointless to me to use a lot of time to make something that at best looks just as good as the reference. Because I'm much better at details than large scale proportions; I often still draw one layer directly on top of the reference with straight lines between eyes, tip of the nose, wings of the nose, corners of the mouth, three extreme points of the hairline and three of the jaw, to get a rough "wireframe" of the main measurements that need to be correct. Sometimes I just re-draw this grid next to the reference free hand and just control that it's okay by overlaying the "traced" frame; other times I just use it directly while making the first rough freehand sketch.

I think this is a good understanding of what I’m saying Stein. I’ve just posted a video to celebrate my first million views on KZfaq with my considered top three tips from all the advice/ teaching that I’ve given in over 470 videos. Have a look if you’re interested. 😀

Thanks for sharing this. Good point about cartoonists. I’ve had a month off Instagram, but a few weeks ago I started posting again. Facebook I really don’t have time to look at any more. @stephentraversart is my Instagram account. 😀

Welcome aboard my channel Lazarus. Haha, nothing against cartoons. They’ve given me much joy over the years. 😀

Welcome aboard my channel. I’m glad this was so applicable to you. 😀

Excellent. Thanks 😀

Yes, I’ve noticed it too. I video and edit on my phone using the free iMovie app, and some of the edit cuts get a weird buzz sound. I’ve tried deleting and reloading the app a few times. I’m not very IT savvy, and have to keep the whole process fairly simple if I’m to manage it. Of course, some times I mess up what I’m saying so much on camera there’s no tidy way to edit it neatly. I would never have believed I would be doing any of this a few years ago. 😀

Yes, that’s what I mean. Thanks for clarifying. 😀

@@stephentraversartThanks Stephen, great video

I disagree. There was a fundamentally different way of thinking which changed the way I drew. Time spent drawing is not usually a game changer. 😀

That’s great Sallie. Observation is such a neglected element of drawing. We can’t draw what we haven’t observed, and it’s harder to observe what we need to see than we think. All the best with your drawing. 😀