Full podcast episode: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qJqnf7t_3srelY0.html Lex Fridman podcast channel: kzfaq.info Guest bio: John Mearsheimer is an international relations scholar at University of Chicago. He is one of the most influential and controversial thinkers in the world on the topics of war and power.

King leopold of Belgium murdered 20 million people in the Congo, but for some reason is never brought up in the same conversation as Hitler. Can’t think why.

How Stalin always gets a pass amazes me

"Hitler was probably the most murderous leader in modern history"...has this dude never heard of Stalin or Mao?

How can this guy say Hitler wasn’t charismatic? Watch ANY speech of his and you’ll see it’s like a work of amphetamine-induced theatre. German citizens were in awe.

Simple, the British were intimidated by German industry, the manufacturing and engineering were superior, there are many Churchill quotes declaring the empires disdain for the German competition.

When my father was working on his Hitler biography in 1973 I recalled him telling me how shocked he was when he met with Hitler's surviving cousins and extended family and them telling him nobody ever came to talk with any of them till my Dad did. It was strange meeting them as they all seemed so ordinary. They survive to this day though they changed their last name after the war.

“Imagine if Hitler won the area he would have committed mass atrocities” lol as if Mr Stalin didn’t already do that. It’s all so very strange

Sam vaknin explained better. Disfunctional families are root of evil in this world. A child who has not received love will burn the whole village to get warm

Mearsheimer: “Hitler was probably the most murderous leader in recorded history.” Really? What about Stalin or Mao?

Imperial Germany was not “largely” responsible for starting World War One. They were certainly a part of It but many nations were equally if not more responsible. Comparing that to World War Two where they were 100% responsible is kinda crazy.

“Hitler was probably the most murderous leader in record history” *Mao Zedong has entered the chat *Joseph Stalin has entered the chat *Genghis Khan has entered the chat

Mearshimer says Hitler, and not Mao, or Stalin, was the most murderous leader?

I don't agree with his view on Napoleon being an aggressor. If you look at most of the "Napoleonic wars" they were largely provoked by the British. A large part of the wars were Napoleon fighting coalitions put together by the British so they could put the monarchy back on the throne, because they didn't agree with the French revolution

The real war was between the Germany and the Soviet Union. I can't conceive how bitter and nasty it must have been.

Didn’t Patton say we fought the wrong enemy

This is one of your best interviews. John is an incredibly wise and insightful man. We are lucky to have him.

I want to comment on Professor Mearsheimer's comparison of Russian success in the case of Napoleon's and Hitler's invasions and the 1st World War failure of the Russian Army. In two former cases, there was strong leadership. In the latter case, there was a disintegration of leadership - a coup in Moscow when Tzar Nicolas was ousted from power, et cetera. Thanks to Professor Mearsheimer and Lex for the interesting discussion.

Lex old son John is a great guest , very intelligent and unpacks issues with an eloquent way

Where does King Leopold II of Belgium stand in this spectrum of congenital aggressors?

I may not always agree with Professor John Meishmeimer but I ALWAYS LISTEN CLOSELY to him. RS. Canada

An Anglocentric view of Napoleon. He embodied the Englightenment values: he introduced the French penal code, reformed education, encouraged science. He was a brilliant military strategist (his strategies are still studied at West Point). He wasn’t perfect, but which leader is? I am surprised Mearsheimer didn’t mention Stalin, or Pol Pot, or Mao. They were much, much more lethal than Napoleon.

I find it funny that Lex romanticizes bravery of Russians when they are renown of deploying murder squads to kill those fleeing battle.

JM is a great argument for the necessity of counter factual thinking. I find myself disagreeing with his takes constantly, but always appreciate how he forces me to back up all my own takes and assumptions.

I don't think that a capture of Moscow would have resulted in a German victory. We see that Napoleon invade and burnt Moscow to the ground. Yet, the French were slaughtered on the way out and ended up losing big.

11:20 It may have been that what happened was that the Soviets were brought up against a cliff edge. The soviets either fight for their lives, or they die. Literally only 2 options. They chose to fight for their very existence. The Germans were tired, and frozen in the snow. Of the 2 motivations, which one would overwhelm?

Sorry, but even as a kid when I was quite new at school and heard for the first time that a Serb in Serbia killed the heir apparent of Austria and because of this a war startet and became a world war and in the end Germany was condemned as the only guilty, I was puzzled and thought that I must have missed something crucial. Today I experienced being lied to on so many levels , I’m convinced that this is kind of the usual politics. I still do not know what happened though I’ve learned a lot and have some questions. But still this big war with the intermediate of 20 years is a taboo, especially if you are a German. At the moment world is changing and a lot of truth is being revealed. We will have to wait another two or five years then a lot of the history of the 20th Century will be explainable. It all will unravel .

You should’ve done the Piers Morgan “Do you condemn the acts of…” shtick…

The alliance system caused WWI, Germany was no more to blame than the others. Really Austria intransigence over it’s demands to Serbia caused things to lead to the Alliance snowball issue.

I feel like this is a classic discussion where both people lack knowledge on the subject, though Mearsheimer is obviously the more intelligent of the two with his guesses. - First of all, if you want to understand WW2 and the German actions, you have to understand the German way of war, which is military science. This is a topic that Mearsheimer isn't aware of, and is the domain of military officers and analysts. Germany or Prussia always relied on quick offensives because Prussia was always surrounded by enemies and had to act quick to prevent a disastrous two front war. So they designed their whole thinking around perpetual and swift offense. The belief being, forget about a long campaign and attrition war, and instead smash the enemy's military in large battles with large enveloping and pincer movements along with combined arms. In fact the modern warfare learned by the USA does the same thing and is inspired by the Nazi doctrines (ie: US Marine actions in Iraq and how they smashed the Iraqis). - Second of all, saying Germany blatantly caused both WW1 and WW2 is a dumb stereotypical thing to say by Mearsheimer. Especially hypocritical when his analysis of the Ukraine war is much more in depth and shows that multiple factors made the situation worse. - Mearsheimer says that from the beginning, Germans were mass murdering Russian POWs. This is BS, there is no evidence of that. Russian POWs were "housed" on large open fields, and often dealt with starvation and famine, because Germans had no facilities to take care of over 1 million POWs. But they weren't just mass shot for fun or something. Also this wasn't a factor that somehow motivated the Russians to fight harder. This is just nonsense. Russians won not through "motivation" but through larger reserves, and the German army overextending itself on the mass of Russia. Finally the Russians won through effective counter offensives that were simply well done. - Mearsheimer keeps saying "Thank God they lost" which shows a heavy degree of bias, especially ironic since Americans then fought a 40 year cold war against the USSR and would have dreamed to be on the outskirts of Moscow like the Germans were. Americans doing it = Good, Germans doing it = Bad, according to Mearsheimer.

Happy thanksgiving lex

Fantastic interview

number of clips can tell he is learning a lot.

As the great granddaughter of a Russian soldier who fought in both world wars, losing also his son and son-in-law, I heard so many heartbreaking stories from my great granddad about the senselessness of war… I feel like at least 2 subsequent generations of Europeans, especially Russians, grew up with huge scars and trauma from the war and losing family members in the war. I still hear my grandma’s stories about the hunger blockade in my ears every time I see food being wasted. I have lived in Russia, in Germany, in the UK and now in the US, but will always consider myself European before anything else. I can’t understand how whole nations can be dragged into this fanatic state of mind and that’s why it totally breaks my heart to see Russia follows in Germany’s footsteps nowadays in Ukraine… My family, who have lost so much during the WWII are now shouting from their rooftops the same kind of fanatic propaganda that drove the Germans into creating the monster of Hitler… It physically pains me to see history repeating, my poor granddad and great granddad are probably turning in their graves now… May there be peace one day for all of us ❤

Germany pulled out of the The Central Banking System and kicked Rothschild out. That's a big reason why the war happened. England and France didn't declare war on Russia when it went into Poland. Think, read, and listen critically.

Excellent discussion. Both have so much knowledge and understanding of these events. They are pertinent now.

C.E. Wood "Mud: a military history".... the mud was inevitable and the machines simply werent built for mud, frozen tundra did not outright stop the blitzkrieg contrary to lore. dope book

I understand and almost entirely agree with Professor Mearsheimer's wide array of analyses of the various modern great power geopolitical dynamics that have transpired throughout the 20th century and now well into the early 21st century I understand his explanation as to why he thinks that Britain should not be counted among the great 20th century powers along with the USA, the USSR, and Germany. I can then speculate and infer, while proceeding from his analysis about Britain, why Imperial Japan, notwithstanding her mighty ascension during the first half of the 20th century, also should not be counted alongside the "big three" either. However, I would very much like to hear Professor Mearsheimer expressly articulate his own analysis as to why he does not consider Japan to have been among the great powers of the 20th century --even at her pinnacle moment, roughly speaking, between1937 and 1943.

People often say “history is written by the victor”, yet they never question the history they’ve learned from the victors who wrote it.

Yeah you do a great job making sure you gave the right impressions for society.

Lex needed to read way more about this subject matter before he tried to disagree with a guy of this guest's stature

He left out the responsibility of the Djuzzzzz

Germany never started ww1 it was Austria who declared war on the Serbs then Germany entered as ally to Austria and Russia for the Serbs. Get it right!

how can he say Hitler was not charismatic??? Who on earth was more charismatic than Hitler?

Fascinating conversation... Without internet & these interviews..we'd all remain in the manufactured ignorance..public education has intentionally inflicted on society.. Free speech, objectivity, and open dialogue..may keep humanity from repeating the horrors of the 20th century.. however, with the current western political class, I'm not so sure..

it is important to learn from the past mistakes of individual and group!

I don't know if it's up to me, but sitting in that position as Lex sits while talking to the professor is quite disrespectful. You invited a guest to your podcast, at least have the courtesy to look like you care about what your guest is saying.

Nice interview, but a shame that such learned individuals don't make mention of Greece's role in the German failure to conquer the Soviet Union. Mussolini's invasion of Greece was a massive failure as the Greeks scored the first Allied victory on European soil in Autumn 1941. As a result, Hitler had to delay Operation Barbarossa in order to lend aid to the Italians and Albanians attacking Greece, which subsequently led the Germans to get decimated by the ensuing Russian winter

On the heath a little flower blooms, and it's name........ERIKA

I’m fascinated by World War II and Hitler like a vast majority of people and I’ve exhausted all the documentaries and a lot of reading material but I found this podcast answered a lot of questions I hadn’t previously heard so thank you this was great

The British were way more aggressive than Napoleon, they kept the wars going Napoleon hardly declared war

If a history professor or an 'expert' states that "Hitler was the most recorded murderer in history" he has neither heard of Stalin, Leopold, Genghis or Mao - or chooses to forget them (for personal reasons i expect)

If Great Britian hadn't declared war after the Germans and Russians split Poland WW2 would of been completely different.

Hitler attacked the Soviet Union because he came to know that they were a war and he would rather be the the first to attack even Germany was not prepared than to sit at home waiting to be overwhelmed. This leads to the next important question: why did the Soviet Union prepare for a war with Germany?

"Probably the most murderous leader in recorded history" Love how Stalin never seems to get mentioned.. Oh wait, Because History is written by the Victors.. Thus recorded history is flawed..

fascinating amount of knowledge here... cant believe we're getting this for free.

Mearsheimer is incredibly clear sighted and articulate

Hitler has been made a scapegoat for the sins of Germany during that period

Peter Ustinov, the great British actor and raconteur, actually saw Hitler give a speech in the flesh and he admitted he was scared of the mans ability to charm his audience then almost spellbind them. Ustinov said he felt scared because he made him, for a second or two, believe what he said.

Lex have you thought of doing some ashtanga yoga. playing pickleball or running marathons. anything to get some shakti going

Great analysis except for one major falsity : Germany did not start WWI.

Mearsheimer is a great knowledgeable and wise honest man

The mongals before battle killed POWs stacked the body’s and burn them in front of people before they invade…in some cases burned them alive or stack mountains of heads. I don’t know if he really does know a lot about history.

Interestingly enough, the time difference in this discussion of WW 2 and the actual events are nearly the same as if two people were discussing tactics and other significant points about the Civil War in 1940

Every time you learn about WWII, you see how close and similar the Israeli mindset is to (or at least influenced by) the Nazis, starvation plan is just one example, and when you read the systematic Israeli propaganda, you realize that every accusation is a confession.

Every perpetrator views himself as the victim. Most ethnic cleansing and massive crimes were committed based on some perciieved past grivences.

Was Hitler more murderous than Stalin?

Great talk!!

Fascinating discussion between Lex and John Mearsheimer

Everytime someone talks about Hitler, they need to mention how murderous he is....

Dude must watch msnbc / bbc and forgot history in general

The Will to Power insight is interesting, Hitler entered the public sphere with the intention of becoming Germanys leader; I dont think Bonaparte did. Bonaparte was ambitious in the sense that he wanted as much power and status as he could possibly get but, I don't think he conspired for leadership until he saw the opportunity.

It is quite a contrast how the Nazis treated the French so well and the Slavs so badly. Not sure what that was all about.

I'd like to know what he says about Mao and Stalin when it comes to the most murderous leaders?

I thought Germany tried to go through Ukraine to get to Baku and the oil there and that allies stopped that. That might have changed the outcome if they were successful with that, but it was far away. I think that was in the "Why We Fight" TV series, which might have been more propaganda narrative, but I think that was true that they were fuel limited.

Stalin and Mao were worse. This guy is turning a blind eye to history

Stalin didn't have a problem killing russians in part because he was georgian, not russian.

Plus…WWII was going on for years in Asian before fighting broke out in Europe. And there was conflict in Europe started by The Soviet Union, Spain, Italy, etc., before Germany. This man is innocent in many respects.

The Bolsheviks and Leninist always get a pass. Why aren’t they talked about more?

napoleon was also a massive killer, only in a different sence, he killed so many ppl cuz his eager to conquer places. it is said that in countries he conquered (soldiers were drafted from those countries) the population decreased as much as with the bubonic plague and the numbers also go in the multiple millions. also a lot of the good things that are attributed to napoleon were based on him wanting to know the stats of his populations in order to get taxes and to draft for his armies. also he undid a lot of progressive laws, for example for women.

This guy seems like the kind of person that even if you repeat his exact words back to him, he'll still find a way to disagree with you.

His speeches are amazing

Also, there is another culprit in many of the deaths in the Soviet Union and the CCP whom history and historians too often ignore: Lysenko and his faulty agricultural theories are responsible for a great deal of the starvation deaths.

Also that Germans and most of Europe was christian and did not want communisme

Napoleon was so cool Fascinating

What are POWs?

As someone with a college degree in International Relations I urge the audience to seek out other views as I disagree with everything Mearshimer says in this interview. Niall Ferguson, Vlad Vexler, General Ben Hodges, Margaret MacMillan, Peter Zeihan, to name a handful real quick

I finally figured out what's up with Lex. He's on Alprazolam.

Yes and this is why Russia wants this to never happen again. If you have agressive military alliance, like NATO, getting closer and closer to your territory the same route as previous invasions were cunducted - then it is time to worry...

Germany was the only industrialized nation that was pulled out of the Great Depression? The Empire of Japan was an industrialized nation too, and it was out of the Great Depression by the early 1930s. 1932, I believe, and this was largely due to a build-up of the armed forces and their switch to Keynesian economic policies. Before Hitler even came to power in 1933.

Just read the dude’s book. H wrote a book you know. And there are lots of his speeches. Most are scrubbed but some are available. Start with those. He tells you why he did what he did.

Why did Hitler start World War Two? Isn’t this question based on a false premise? The last time that I checked, the history books stated that it was Britain and France who declared war on Germany in 1939.

That was deep. I love it

There were also other nationalities in the Ussr. Not only Russians. And Ukrainians. And it’s good to never forget that there was quite an amount of Ukrainians fighting on the Nazi side against the Soviets.

@LexClips thank you, we know this subject is so close to your heart. Gentlemen I agree with 95% one critical oversight, perhaps in the rest of the interview, you covered the extraordinary achievement of RN/USN escorting supplying the CCCP/USSR with weapons materials etc from USA, without I sincerely doubt the Soviets could of rearmed & regrouped to fight back & defeat 4.2 Million strong Wehrmacht & the many other military regiments, Militias including nearly 750, 000 foreign axis troops. Of the Operation Barbarossa 154 divisions deployed against the Soviet Union in 1941, 100 infantry, 19 panzer, 11 motorized, 9 security, 5 Waffen-SS, 4 "light", 4 mountain, 1 SS-police, and 1 cavalry. A German infantry division had 17,750 men (100 =1,775,000 infantrymen) SS Schutzstaffel: Waffen SS. being elite guard & combat Allgemeine SS Occupation, POW's, ethnic cleansing etc.. ,

I like how after this segment he goes onto explain how Putin/ Russia didn't start the Ukraine war, as if Germany didn't have any "legitimate security concerns" in Czechia and Poland, the same way that he says Russia does in Ukraine.

They came within a year of staving Britain into surrender.

Stalingrad remainded me of enemy at the gates movie

He was charismatic because Chaplin was still huge at that time and the mustache meant something different then, then it does to us today.

Lex thought all this time his Slav nation beat Germans because they where brave and this guy schooled him casually and said you guys where waving the white flag during World War One