Thanks for watching! Want more Web DM in your life? Get our podcast here: www.patreon.com/webdm

If you had an angel show up whenever shit got too hard, you'd be in a season of Supernatural.

I had a friend I played with who’s character was a human bard and his only goal for the campaign was to travel around and try to seduce every race he could. The DM made him roll for it then the DM did a secret role for a kid if he “succeeded.” Flash forward about 20 years in-game (we boosted from 6th to 12th and decided that took some time) and the bard has become a devout paladin. We are in the main city and suddenly a half-elf, half-dwarf, half-gnome, half-orc, and aasimar show up all claiming to be his children and have all been adventuring together to find him. Made for an awesome RP experience.

There's also a fun concept that Planescape pokes at on occasion: Angels and Good Outsiders aren't showing up because Evil (capital E) is winning (and the blood war is the only thing keeping Evil contained from overcoming Good). The mortals that are summoning more devils and being selfish and wicked are greater in number and power than the ones who are off sacrificing themselves to do good. Where Evil is self-limiting in the long run on an individual level, its kneejerk fulfillment makes it more numerous on the larger scale. Whereas Good is self-limiting in the short run and idyllic in the long run but the hard buy in is keeping people out in large enough numbers that Good (capital G) can't spare resources to fight off every Demon/Devil incursion on every mortal plane. So maybe they're ceding planes they see as 'lost causes' to Evil in some cases, or hoping and trusting the heroes to fix the problem in their stead. They want to hold off until the players are dead because if they can conserve their own soldiers for the endgame then things will turn out better. And when you're dealing at such a global scale the concept of having to do the 'greater good' can sometimes be really unpleasant and I imagine a lot of Angels and Good Outsiders are even a little distraught over it.

11:40 Dude, do you know the CR of the creatures? The book of Ezekiel has a living true seeing Gyroscope construct that flys at the speed of light and can summon four faced angels that have booming voices and are surrounded by lighting with skin made of molten metal. So like 15? 16?

No one dislikes your content. Your whole fan-base is behind you guys !

If you want to strike the fear of god in your players, have an angel show up and either save them in combat or prevent from overleveled threats from killing them in the first few sessions of a campaign. Then kill that angel. Then watch them sh*t their pants.

The reason I've given in the past to "why angels don't intervene." Is that most Angles are keeping an eye on the blood war considering that if for whatever reason that ends, well the rest of the universe is screwed... "Yes Tiamat may be about to invade your plane, but that is only one plane. I guard against the onslaught of chaotic evil more terrifying and grand than you can comprehend, mortal."

I have an Angel villain in my D&D game. After attempting to stage a coup so that she can destroy the world and rebuild it with nothing having free will, she was banished to the Ethereal Realm to look over the dead souls. However, she begins using those souls to fuel her next master plan: steal the elemental energy from the planet, Nevertide, and use the energy, along with her army of aligned Paladins and Clerics, to destroy the planet and conquer the Heavenly Realms. She also strikes up a deal with the strongest dragon on the planet, Merl, to help her turn the dragons to her side so she can give him control over the Hellish Realms, so he can eat the souls of the damned for all eternity.

There's a reason the first thing out of an Angel's 'mouth' in the bible was always, "Do not be afraid"

This and the Devil episode was great. Loved them both. Got some ideas spinning, such as an Angel being the indirect quest giver or a devil being trapped (like a Djinn) and would have to serve the party member who has the trinket that trapped the Devil.

After planning to go to hell and fight some demons, devils, and anything else I had planned, some of the players were wondering about the opposite. Could they go to the Astral Realm and kill a god? I wasn't planned for this, so I needed to get inspiration to make some celestials. Good thing you guys came along! Also, could you do an episode on making your own Gods and stuff like that?

As an aspiring DM I absolutely love Jim and his passion to create these worlds and make everything so organic and fun. Don't get me wrong, I like Pruitt too, but PLEASE keep doing these videos! They inspire me to create my own worlds; I started last month as a DM and I'm addicted!!

I find that the Celestial Warlock helps with the first reason you give for why Celestials might not help, because while they might not be allowed to get their hands dirty, they can help someone else get stuff done.

Once in a game my party had been taken to an angel castle. Our paladin has insisted we go, we didn't really have a choice it was 12vs4 12 being the angels and 4 being us, they took us to the strong hold and had us walk around and wait to meet their goddess then things got good our bard saw a particular she-angel walking around so he went up and talked to her, 16 minutes later we're running for our lives because our bard had shagged the she-angel and infuriated the whole stronghold while I, our ranger, was speaking to the goddess so I had no idea and she knew the entire time and my character tried to leave only to be locked away in the goddess's throne room. One of if not the most interesting encounter I've had with angels and a god

I learn so much when I watch you guys! I am a forever DM with my group and if I had the chance to actually play under another DM it would most definitely be Jim! Great work guys!

I love the thought of changing demons into Angels. I had given up on good v evil entirely and aligned everything as order v chaos. My players now think more about their decisions and how the want to fit into the side by side worlds of the mortal realm and the Feywild. The have yet to recognize the other neighbors in Mechanism.

WotC really needs to release a Celestial Warlock Patron. I want to play a character that serves an archangel and, for example, needs to punish one wicked person a week or risk losing their powers

Great video as always. Minor nit pick: Eberron religions are the Silver Flame and Sovereign Host not the Sovereign Flame.

Keep on going with what your doing guys. Can't wait for an episode on all the character races!

In my homebrew game, the backstory is that a devil of chaos created portals and brought many new species and races to the lotr world a century ago from the time my group is currently playing in. Wars happened, order was restored and for the most part, there is now peace between all humanoids. But now an archangel has become fed up with the diversity in the lands and he has decided to take matters into his own hands, bringing many angels with him, hoping to wipe out anything and everything not previously native to the land.

Your comment on them killing downtime reminds me of when my players wound up defeating ultimate evil in a game world of mine. Cue the angels running a repressive dictatorship over the mortals and outlawing all sin.

The jokes at the start, so bad yet so good haha :D

Angels can be great for opposing your party and their goals. Just because your party is good doesn't mean you have the same goals. For example I ran a game where the party was hunting down a villian and to find him they needed to get an ancient evil artifact. 2 angels tasked with keeping heretical knowledge out of the hands of mortals stood in their way and it came to blows.

When you guys said that part about how not all Celestials are angels, you got me thinking about an idea. A Buddhist celestial meditating somewhere quiet and away from civilisation. A possible social encounter as the celestial makes the party question the motives and reasoning for the quest they are undertaking.

Just dropped an Angel in disguise into my game world. Angels there can't just act, they're bound to let mortals mortal or else they fall, but they can be sent to aid and assist now and again. This guy is Gandalf style - he can offer advice, fight with weapons, but he's not allowed to bring his full destructive powers to bear.

I'm a very dark and edgy kinda dude, but GOD I love angels so much! They can be such a powerful plot device, and they are in ways more imposing and intimidating than any fiend can ever be.

Great series. Thanks for sharing your time. Your creativity is wonderful and I'm just soaking it all in!

I always treat the Angels' lack of intervention as a choice based on their understanding of destiny. In Out of the Abyss, if they know that those "four Drow prisoners" are on the path to solve the problems, they'll leave it to them. Angels only intervene if the world itself cannot handle the evil coming against it. Finally, as to them not caring about individual human lives, I leave that up to the Angel individually. Some are greater good types, some are kind and care about the little guy. A bit like good humans.

Thank you for the video. I'm playing a campaign right now that involves angels and Celestials a lot. This helped out a bunch. I really appreciate your guys content, keep up the good work

The idea of different versions of "angels" was an entirely new concept to me when I got into D&D 23 years ago - what? There are DOG angels? Yeah, I was hooked. Great job again guys, your passion really shines through your work!

I suggest looking up the 9 courts of angles in heaven. The Wikipedia page does have good initial descriptions of what various angels look like. Seraphim, for example, are described as six winged (two to fly, 4 to cover itself), constantly screams praises to God so loud an so beautifully as to kill mortals who hear and if it gazed upon you, you are burned away right down to your soul in divine fire. Nice and easy to make as a DnD Monster; big flier with area thunder damage effect with fear and deafening effects, and a gaze attack that does buckets of radiant damage. A Throne is that giant many eyed wheel thing (they carry god’s throne/chariot). Give it massive speed and a charge attack and trampling charge that does bludgeoning and radiant, omnidirectional truesight, massive speed and immunity to attacks of opportunity because it’s so fast and that ones pretty well done. The list goes on.

My favorite comba is and aasimar paladin. Great RP fun, the idea of celestial descendants doing good and smiting evil really speaks to me.

Been watching a lot of your videos, really interesting content, keep it up !

a good justification for the angels not showing up is that whatever world eating Armageddon that the players are up against is actually just the tip of the multiplanar iceberg. It's not that the angels can't or don't want or aren't allowed to help, it's that they're needed to handle even worse shit elsewhere, and you could communicate this by having the players do some sort of ritual to summon an angel to help only to find out that since whatever they're dealing with has at least a one in a million chance of not ending the world the angels/gods are focusing on the actual problem and the players are on their own.

I always described it as the angels dealing with the massive demon and devil armies that are in the background. This leaves the players to deal with the demon lords who could quite easily crush the celestials in combat. But yeah, not the easiest thing to explain.

Angels- agents of the good aligned deities, created using souls of good mortals, always Lawful Good but can be in the service of any Good aligned deity. Unless the god they serve is under threat they won't really act that much unless it's to give advice on occasion. Celestials- native outsiders of the Upper Planes whose personalities depend on the Plane they call their home.

Can you explain how half-celestial / half-angel characters work. Specifically a PC that has those characteristics.

Best D&D5e KZfaq channel around! Keep the good material coming.

I can't believe I have never seen this series before, it's awesome! Can't wait for the next.

I run angels as perfect embodiments of justice and compassion. they dont concern themselves with day to day evil, but the do care. since the preeminent diety in my campaign is Ilmater his angels also show compassion at random to mortals around them, but focus their efforts in combating evil.

nice opening and good to fill my ears with that D&D

Really awesome intro. Angels are awesome in DnD, slaying arrows all day.

According to my head cannon the reason angels aren't showing up to intervene all the time is because their post is in the heavens. When an angel leaves their post in heaven to deal with some problem the characters couldn't solve, five or six Barbed Devils are going to sneak into Mount Celestia, perhaps this causes the cleric in the party to loose their spells for a day. This is why the celestial forces use their chess pieces in the mortal world such as the player characters.

I always imagine that there is this one God who is always looking to help but really if you think about it the idea of the pantheon angels would really only get involved if it looks like you might fail in stopping the demons because if the demon lords can be stopped by a guild of heroes why would they feel the need to help. Angels are rarely combative. They are teachers and Couriers and want people to be strong on their own

Check out the angel compendium for dnd, which expands upon angels and celestial considerably. Its free, beautifully made, and well balanced.

Another great episode as always.

I never played angels as lawful good, but rather as lawful neutral. I see them more as steadfast soldiers of order with no compassion, rather than kindly celestial beings, I leave that to archons. For example, I have seen them played more as a summonable entity by all lawful clerics and paladins, more bent on protecting cosmic order than goodness.

Nice work guys lots of juicy tidbits and ideas to work off of. Love watching your videos they always give me great ideas and can't wait for next week's.

7:40 - _sigh_ Lawful good does not mean No Fun Allowed, it means the angel's gonna make sure the sex trade is regulated and non-exploitative.

It may not fit perfectly in the exact forgotten realms setting but angels are great main vilains too. Put a lawfull good theocracy with an angel (who somehow managed + wants to permanently stay on this plain and world) as it's head in your campaign setting. This lawfull good angel may be a radical crusader who wants to purify this world from all evil and chaos. Everyone is given a chance to end their sinfull ways but everyone who doesn't comply will be purged to prevent further corruption in this world. This may lead to alliances between good-players and evil d&d creatures to stop this madness which can lead to really funny interactions. How much do you want to trust the bad guys? The hag covens for example may offer their help but is an alliances which such foul creatures worth it? If you manage to complete such a campaign you might have a perfect start for your next one. The radical angel might have been right because inside of this world is an ancient evil, mightier than every being on the celestial plane. This ancient evil feeds from every wrong doing on this world and soon it will awake.. (so you could follow it up with a c'thulu like campaign ;) )

If players particularly Paladins or Clerics are skirting the line of alignment or the tenants of their given faith angels are the messengers of their given god and to my mind if a given deity was aware enough of a PC to grant them power they are invested enough to at lease send a messenger to at least voice their displeasure over their actions. I think an angel showing up and giving a Paladin a come to Jesus moment (so to say) has a particularly strong RPG moment, maybe that is the time the Paladin breaks his oath and rebels maybe it is the time to drive and adventure of atonement players choice.

Amazing show, I always look forward to a new WebDM

Love the material, please keep up the good work! You guys should do a video on the alignment rubix.

Fuck I've watched three episodes of your channel and I'm hook, you guys have a GREAT video dynamic, and knowledge and this is something I can be playing while doing chores or reading or playing another game, keep kicking ass!!! 10/10 would sub again

Like this channel! Sticking around, keep up the good work!

Love your videos. On this particular episode I wish you elaborated on some other celestials, like Couatls and such. Oh well, more themes for future episodes, I suppose. Keep up the amazing work

Great episode guys! Love the topic and your insights. Just a thought when you were discussing using Biblical angels as a sort of template/reference: generally when they appeared to people they were sent to help or give a message to they always start by telling the people Do Not Fear. Apparently they are pretty darn impressive and can cause sphincters to loosen just by sight! Love the show and always look forward to each episode!

Great video guys, as always :)

Love these you guys are awesome!

You raised a great point! "Storm King's Thunder" is the Giants response to "Tyranny of Dragons". If Angels are the response to great extra-planar evil, and they did not intervene in "Princes of the Apocalypse", and now with Demon Lords (!!!) running around in "Out of the Abyss", will there be a storyline response to this latest incursion? And whereas I agree that players are responsible for, say, closing a demon portal or slaying a dragon, attacking a Demon Prince is another ballgame entirely. THAT should be the job of an Angel. If they DON'T show, does it say something about the Gods? The Gods will throw spells at mortal clerics and Paladins.....but actually send an Angel...? You certainly have raised a great point. I'll have to discuss this with some other local DMs and see where they stand. Thanks!

9:00 can't you apply a celestial template to basically any beast? Like when a wizard summons a familiar, they can choose a beast but its considered a fey celestial fiend etc.

Perhaps angels intervene in hidden ways? One possibility is the Fizbin/Gandalf idea of an angel in disguise as a human wizard or paladin or whatever. That kindly but aged wizard living like a hermit in a tower who helps out with information and books and advice? Turns out he's a celestial in disguise, and you only discover it when shit gets real and he hobbles up to battle, drops the walking staff and just lets loose like Yoda in Attack of the Clones... Also, that Holy Avenger Sunblade your Paladin found in a Ogre's treasure hoard, which turned out being a life saver several times? Who do you think put that there? Or better yet, the *intelligent* Holy Avenger Sunblade your paladin found in the ogre hoard? Not only did a celestial put it there, it actually *is* a celestial in disguise, which you only discover when shit gets bad, it polymorphs back to its true form and saves the day for you all - and then leaves, leaving the Paladin short one Holy Avenger Sunblade...

I played out of the abyss and our excuse was the bureaucracy of the heavens is so complex it takes 50 years to get angel down

Man. "thanks for summoning the Angels cleric" just reminds me of the "that mitchell and webb look" skits for bmx boy and angel summoner. perfect

I like to picture Jim Davis doing the chorus in the intro

6:02 You could even build on that and say that angels enjoy or at least revel in such fights and intervention and so their gods restricting them is annoying in that way as well.

I used a fallen arc-angel as a center piece of a campaign once. The Neutral wizard drew his enmity and paid the ultimate price for it. His body is floating somewhere in the astral plane now.

Biblical angels sound badass, I'd totally use them if wizards adapted them or if someone made homebrews.

These videos always get my hyped to play some D&D And then Lilli doesn't show up and we can't play

Added a celestial to my Rise of Tiamat game when an avatar of Dendar, TPKed the party. It fit imo.

Wasn’t Gandalf just like an angel wizard?

actually you guys did give me a wonderful idea though on how i want to go about it

When I DM I use the philosophy, I'm a referee of the game mechanics only, I'm not trying to kill you, the villanous NPCs are. When it comes to non-mechanical in game rules as DM I'm not enforcing them, the ANGELS are. would use angels (devas, planetars, solar) to enforce in-game rules. The most common for example is someone broke their alignment, a Deva would show up and warn them, and if necessary punish them, if it continued a planetar, then a solar. Another big one is I also used angels sent by the gods to 'herd' characters who want to deviate.

The Ravnica angels are so good. cannot suggest that book enough for not even ravnica themed adventures

I love the show, keep it up guys! You may have managed to convert a die-hard 3.5er to possibly picking up 5th ed, for that alone you deserve some credit.

Can you imagine a campaign in which the whole party is led to believe a big bad demon is trying to annihilate the world, but then at the end the party learns they've been killing the good guys all along, an angel is the "bad guy" who has actually been trying to save the world, and that they're the big bad "demons" afterall?.... Does this game exist? I wanna play it lmao

Thank you all for all of your content! Could you all go over all of the different forms of were-creatures??

This is really usefull for celestial warlock

So, idea that's probably been done before: An Angel as a frequently encountered NPC for a good-aligned party. Initially, the Angel would seem nearly inscrutable, but with repeated interaction, the party could come to know more about the aspects of the divine as they are presented in the game. What's more, it could possibly open up the Angels for characterization. What if the gods are literally the only thing keeping the Angels from "fixing" everything they see as a "problem"? What if the real reason for the small number of true Devils is the absence of opportunity to fall? What if the Angels are closer to the good-aligned races than actually thought, but that's typically not known due to limited opportunity to actually explore the higher realms?

Great video, keep it up!

I tend to solve the whole "why don't gods/angles intervene" by having a powerful barrier/cosmic force separate the material world from the domains of gods and such powerful entities, and the only way for powerful beings to enter from beyond is with the help of someone already on the inside. Then you have a good reason why Orcus or someone like that can't just enter the world at will and fuck it up in a week, or why gods can't so easily send help if demons are causing trouble in the world :P The more powerful the entity, the more difficult for them to enter.

In a campaign I am currently planning, assuming things go horribly wrong, the goal will be to fix the world BEFORE the angels start showing up. As in, vampires and devils and high level evil, neutral and even good beings start begging the party, please help fix this, because if the Angels have to get involved we are all super screwed. Like, yes, A Solar can handle a demon lord on its own but a battle on that level will probably kill a continent and invalidate all the treaties we made with angels to maintain order. If you think hell on earth is bad, try Angelic Martial Law to expunge all evil...

This is super helpful, I'm currently working on a game where the group are faced with an evil cult trying to summon the Devils from the Nine Hells so I have been looking very closely at the pantheon of the gods and Celestials/Angels. I always think that the Angels will act as a last resort and be dangerously driven in completing their job, so it's best the players stay out of their way, but what do they do when the angels start destroying cities to stop these Devils.

In my campaign world, I had to rewrite the way demons and angels operate because we take a different approach, going more for Sword and Sorcery style rather than high fantasy. For instance, there is no way to kill either an Angel or a Demon. They are spiritual beings, non-corporeal, and while Demons can materialize as physical beings in the physical world, Angels don't and won't, and they never have to. Because Angels truly serve the Divine, thus they are truly Supernatural, in that they have access to Perfection in all its forms; they know everything about anything they want to know instantly, going far beyond what mortals know, and they know the future as well as the past instantly. Demons, on the other hand, are Preternatural, that while they are powerful beings in their own right, they cannot know the future, and thus they can know only so much about any one topic that can be gathered from the material, the Natural, world. Normally, we've been playing this game using the Legend system, but we've been incorporating this into 5E because we like the system. In this setting, an encounter with an Angel is usually a life-changing experience. There is never a doubt about encountering one, whereas with a Demon or a Devil (which, in this setting, are the same thing) since the being is trying always to deceive, there is always some doubt. Also, there are nine kinds of Angels in my campaign, as there are in Catholic/Orthodox theology. There are Nine Choirs. At the closest to us, there are the Angels, then there are the Archangels, then the Principalities (which, if you ever encounter one, will be the end of your life because a Principality cannot tolerate any Error), then there are the three choirs that govern the universe, starting with the Virtues, then the Powers, and then the Dominions. Then, the ones that govern Heaven, there are the Thrones (they allow who gets to see God), the Cheribum (the Commandos of God - you will always lose to one of these), and the Seraphim (the six winged Angels) who guard the Throne of God.

If you have greater demons in your campaign then you should have equally leveled angels. If you aren't willing to have 1 then don't have the other. It significantly raises the stakes when one or the other shows up instead of it being "Oh yeah super strong boss just spawned let's stab it till prizes fall out." It NEEDS to be a "Oh shit" moment and over using demons and devils without angels enforcing the balance cheapens that.

the joke you started the vid with ... this was the thing the female bard said to the angel messenger who came down to talk to the paladin of the group...

Hey Web DM! I'm really enjoying your content, the way it's being delivered really gives it a 'natural conversation' feel. Will Pruitt and Jim discuss topics such as: 'Conflicting Alignment Parties', or 'Balancing Roleplay and Combat''?

Celestial and angel logic in DnD: I have unimaginable semi-godly power and authority. I should be fight this devil lords, demons or aberrations as it's part of my portfolio and responsibilities. But unlimited God sensai said is should send his DMs down to other God sensai across the street. Fork it, let the squishy mortal take care of it. I can always pitch smack them is they do too many no no's along they way trying to survive those tea bags.👼🤷‍♂️

Keep them coming guys! These are awesome, especially for myself and my buddies who are just getting started with D&D. I guess its never too late to play D&D. N00B HYPE!! PS. When's the next chapter of the Coven of Razel-Sinn saga coming up?

I'm surprised there was no mention of Aasimar. Would you guys be willing to go into more detail about playing as Aasimar? Thanks! Love the channel!

I love these guys

nicely done!

Easy fix, Angels and Celestials only intervene when summoned to Earth by mortals, and their duration and powers are thus limited.

"Maybe, they shouldn't have burned that village to get to that guy" Or.. Maybe they should, because the celestial can be a vindicator-like creature, that sees mortal lifes as simple temporary things that will go on to another step in the great wheel, so no harm done with the death of those if this helps to stop a greater evil.

This is why we re-skinned my Celestial Patron Warlock. My DM and I worked it out as a more neutral Archfey because my character is a Wood Elf Circle of Dreams Druid Celestial Warlock so wanted to keep that Fey theme going rather than just settle for a unicorn as that would really be the only one that would make sense from the list for this character. Without making something up or re-skinning something there are just not enough celestials. She was raised by wolves and sees/hears spirits that trained her in the ways of a Druid and one of those spirits is the Archfey. A bit of Summer Court vs Winter Court using my character as both the game board and the pawn. Druid mentor is a Fey in the form of a wolf that howls at the dawn for the sun rather than for the moon and the patron is a Fey with some control over the winds. Lady of the Wind and the Wolf of the Sun. Which is a mirror of My character being a female wood elf raised by and caring for wolves.

One interesting plot hook would be for the deity of the party cleric to send their angelic messengers to get wayward priests back on the correct path...or to get the cleric on a new path to do their deities will.

Thank you guys so much for this series! I found you about a week ago, and I've already watched all your videos, and can't wait for more. I've played a lot and DMed a little, but I'm writing my first big campaign, and all your insights have been invaluable in helping me do that. Is there any chance you could do a video at some point about balancing story vs. player autonomy? What if the DM has a story he really wants to tell, and he thinks the players will enjoy it, but he doesn't just want to railroad them through it? How does he still get to tell the story while also letting the players genuinely make decisions and affect the story as well?

A good reason for angels and celestials to not get involved in demons, Tiamat and so on is the blood war. Currently evil is fighting evil, and keeping those powers at bay. If angels or celestials got involved, those evil factions would turn their attention to the angels and then they would be forced to spend resources directly fighting evil rather than fighting evil indirectly. Additionally, by mentoring and guiding characters and other heros, the angels are growing their base and power without causing undue attention. These characters who die for the side of good will likely themselves become celestials with some of the knowledge and wisdom of their former lives. Encouraging good characters is really the best strategy for all!

I'm in a unimaginable amount of pain like you don't even know