Thanks…amen!

In my view an all powerful god could find some other means to achieve "my good" that didn't involve my suffering. Also, I've gotten by just fine so far without ever getting cancer, for example, and will quite happily do without despite whatever good you can foolishly imagine will come out of me getting it. A god that allows suffering to happen because it "brings glory to His name" is very messed up and not worthy of any glory or praise IMHO.

​@@daleproctor3723you do understand that God gave us free will and in the end we will be judged accordingly. Don't for one second think God doesn't repay sinners here on earth. Vengeance belongs to Him. There are many reasons God let's suffering happen and most of the time we bring it upon ourselves because of our free will, sins and choices. They all have consequences. If you are a child of God and suffering it's for a reason, that God reveals to his children. When we suffer and turn to Christ we Christian's end up seeing the glory of God in our lives. It is why we say he exists because he fights the wars in our lives that we can't. If you are not a child of God he let's you live your life and intervenes when necessary and even uses you but you can't see or hear him because your spiritual eyes and ears are closed. Learn how to listen to God's voice then you will understand what you don't know and thought you did about God and Christianity.

Except he never really addressed the question of why an all powerful and all loving God allows suffering. The nearest he came to answering the question was just 'trust in God'

@@johnhammond6423you should listen again my friend. ❤

​@@johnhammond6423you haven't read about Adam and Eve? Or the Gospel? You can't judge without understanding. You should research your own question from credible Christian sources to give you a bit of a grasp on Christianity and God. Then go deeper into research seeing it from our point of view and ask God for help so he can give you understanding and knowledge of scripture and God himself.

@@sally9352 _'you haven't read about Adam and Eve?'_ We know with overwhelming evidence that we are just an evolved species of ape [homo sapiens] there was no Adam and Eve. I don't believe in old religious books thousands of years old full of fairy tales.

Thanks brother!

The untold suffering of almost all animals in the wild is one of the major reason why I am an atheist.

The mistreatment of animals is absolutely deplorable behavior however, as Christians we are more focused on human beings and the human condition because many are leaving this earth and going into a Godless eternity because sin is what gets people into hell. People will be held accountable when we die, animals will not. Rejecting Jesus as savior has devastating consequences that last forever. As christians we must prioritize the most important things because even after 1 million years in torment, you're still at day ONE in hell. If more people would come to Jesus, there be a positive change in the heart and the evil in the world would not a factor be as prevalent and harming animals wouldn't be a factor.

@@beadoll8025 _'The mistreatment of animals is absolutely deplorable behaviour'_ Your God apparently drowned almost all the animals in the world at the time of the flood. Tell me, is that deplorable? _'even after 1 million years in torment, you're still at day ONE in hell'_ What a sick religion Christianaty is. So for just not being convinced that your God exists, in a million years from now I will still be screaming out in agony while your up there in heaven sipping on a martini. Thank God I am an atheist and not a part of your death cult!

​@@johnhammond6423that's some kind of joke 😂? I would think animals should be in so called wilderness - natural environment no?

You bet!

Yes, people should care. I'm praying for your complete healing.

I'm so sorry that has happened to you. That's awful!

Try a psychiatrist. It's not fair to lay your psychological issues on a church.

Many people care, but they don't always know how to help. They might know how to help practically, but dealing with trauma is not easy. I pray you will meet people who care, and also who know how to help. May you receive healing and restoration from your trauma, and even, for your own sake, be able to forgive. 🙏❤️

I know this may sound insensitive but it’s honestly said with love. It’s our job to heal ourselves. If you are looking for Christ in a building you won’t find it. It is only within us. You can choose to stay a victim, feel sorry for yourself and expect others to do the work for you but then how would you grow from the experience? Or you can choose to do the work within and transmute the pain you have experienced into something beautiful that will help others in your own healing. That’s the help Jesus was talking about. I truly hope you find the peace you are seeking. Also I recommend watching some of the teachings of Bill Donahue and Dolores Cannon on KZfaq.

Yeah, it does, but then you resort to saying God's behavior cannot be understood. Then you have reason to doubt the very essence of Christianity because you have no reason to believe the resurrection was a good or necessary thing

@at5 Your argument assumes a finite being should be able to understand an infinite being, is that reasonable? God knows everything from beginning to end, and we don't, it makes sense why we may not understand why any event occurs. From the understanding of the butterfly effect, we know that one simple change can ripple several millions upon billions of causes and effects to change. If chess isn't a solved game yet, and grandmasters are still no where near to solving a perfect game of chess with the optimal moves, how much more is an infinite being able to call moves ahead of time for his ultimate purpose in winning the ENTIRE game and not just a single point of interaction. And if God is real and the afterlife is true, people don't truly cease to exist, they just change locations. And it's God's right to usher people into one life to the next anytime he wants. But justice will be served in the end, when his judgment comes. So it's not like evil is getting away with it in a Christian worldview, and in fact in the atheistic world view, evil DOES get away with it if there's no God. God doesn't OWE anyone a good 80 year long life with no complications. He is the author of life and he is free to take life whenever he wants. You saying it's injustice to take life or allow suffering is coming from a sense of entitlement if you TRULY acknowledge God as God, then by definition he has every right to shape the world as he wills. This doesn't mean God doesn't have compassion towards us, but he must have good reasons for it in his ultimate purpose and if we are his children and accept his grace we will be redeemed and we will be vindicated in the ultimate court of the universe. The same way a child may not understand why the parent allows suffering of the dentist visit, the parent has good reasons for the suffering.

@@WaterCat5 Can I ask what you mean? Within Christianity, the resurrection of Jesus is not just necessary but essential.

@@christopherhearn4309 Skeptical theism asserts that we can't know the mind or ways of god. If you accept that, you have no justification for believing the resurrection was good. The only reason people think that it would have been good is that the bible says so, but the contents of the bible are not at all guaranteed to be true under skeptical theism.

@@WaterCat5Okay. Thanks!

We suffer diseases because of sin. Because of sin we have death. Everything is deteriorating. It's in the first book of the Bible, Genesis.

@@sally9352Genesis does not say disease came to exist because of sin. It’s not in the Bible.

@sally9352 yes, that is conventional Christian theology even though the Bible does not explicitly say it. My comment was directed at Sean, not addressing why God can allow this and still be loving and good. Sean explained why the gift of free well neceitates the possibility of people being evil toward each other, but this does not explain suffering from disease that is not caused by human choice. I still believe that God is good and loving, but I can't rational justify my belief through a rational argument for every case of suffering in the world.

My mother in law died of cancer 4 years ago. She was evil towards me and my children. One day as I was praying on a Monday God gave me a vision of her. I saw her in my vision and God told me he gave her cancer. That same Friday she comes back from the doctors and says she's just been diagnosed with cancer. While she was dying she was mean at first with me but then towards the end she was nicer, she stopped the attacks on me. While she was dying God told me to pray for her salvation, and its hard praying for blessings over your enemies. He said he was taking her because she was his when I asked why? Her son who is not a Christian asked her to give her life to Jesus days before she passed and although she couldn't answer we hope she accepted Jesus. There was suffering and her family didn't understand it but I did. Sometimes God has to let someone suffer to save them.

What if it's no free will really? Like Calvinists say???

God didn't allow you to suffer for you to beg for salvation. God is good and wants your salvation, it took you suffering in sin and evil long enough to realize that he is and has always been good, and wanted the good for you from the beginning.

I can imagine an empty universe and i can also imagine a universe with maximal evil( hell for instance) if evil is indeed just the negation of good then you are asserting both of these are equally bad, does that seem right to you?

@@bjk8794 No, I am not asserting both are equal or equally bad, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

@@wrippley103 that is the logical conclusion to saying evil is just the negation of good, both scenarios have equal amounts of good( meaning zero) so that means they are equally bad. If you don't agree with that then your definition of evil is the problem.

@@bjk8794 No, one doesn't come from the other, it is a state change that results in the other, eg. the light is on, the light is off. Light doesn't come from the dark and the dark does not come from the light, the result is what happens when the light goes out, a state change.

@@wrippley103 even your own example shows your definition is wrong, cause a universe with nothing in it and a universe with only darkness are both similar in terms of darkness but when you change it to good and evil it doesn't work, how are you not seeing that?

That is actually the oldest religious belief of all.

​@@wilhelmvonn9619the oldest meaning? Name please?

That's an interesting point. And that's one reason why I hesitate to use theodicies. If the philosophical answers consistently don't answer the questions of people who are actually struggling, maybe that is because they are just not great answers.

My phone number is available. Use it.

God often took away peoples “free will “ in the Bible. According to the Bible he hardened Pharaohs heart so that he did not release the Israelites.

sam harris is honest and consistent. sean is not!

If God was only sometimes loving how could we trust him? It's not who he is and we know this by scripture first and then when we experience it through Christ in our walk in life with our Lord. God himself let's us know he's not sometimes loving, even when he's disciplining his children or taking vengeance. It's out of love because he is love.

@@sally9352 (To say that we know by "scripture" makes the assumption that scripture is authoritative, which I am not really sure of) Even if I grant that, there are times in scripture where God does not exemplify love. Granted, there are many times in scripture where God demonstrates love, and there are verses that claim that God is always loving. However, I don't think He is *consistent* in His love. 1 Corinthians 13 describes "love," so let's see if God meets the criteria: Patient: - Genesis 19:26 Lot's wife didn't even have a chance to think about what she had done - Leviticus 10:1-2 - Numbers 16:42-50 The Lord afflicted people so quickly after their complaints that in the time it took Aaron and Moses to make an atonement, 14700 people had gotten a plague - 2 Samuel 6:6-7 Uzzah didn't have time to explain himself Kind - 2 Samuel 24:10-15 Was it "kindness" that was showed to all of David's people who hadn't themselves committed the sin that David had? Not boastful - Job 38-41 After God boats extensively to Job, Job is humbled and says that he has spoken too loftily Not irritable - Exodus 4:24-26 ----- You also mention our walks in life, and I see much flourishing and also a significant amount of suffering. By that alone I have no reason to assume that God it's omnibenevolent when I could just say that God is sometimes loving because I experience flourishing and suffering both. (Unless I have a good reason to believe God is always loving)

Yikes! I don't know anything about tennis shoes, but if you have anything made overseas it was made by people who were either slaves or not much better than slaves.

@@bobtaylor170 I know- that is the hypocrisy of sean and christians. they live comfortable lives and sell bs to the masses so they can get paid well and live well. that is my point

Let's added up the Evil God did according to the Bible. Perhaps start with Commandments in Exodus and the invocation to make girls sex slaves Behold, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Take care, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you go, lest it become a snare in your midst. You shall tear down their altars and break their pillars and cut down their Asherim (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and you are invited, you eat of his sacrifice, and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods and make your sons whore after their gods.

You know what he means

I actually find the square-circle thing kind of funny because there actually is a framework of geometry called "Taxicab geometry" and with the rules of that geometry there actually is such a thing as a square circle. We should be careful about what we call logically impossible.

@@PiRobot314 You are reaching. It may be called a square circle but not in the sense that Sean meant. If you paint a square on a piece of paper and spin it really fast it may appear to be a circle but it is not. It's still a square. The circle is an illusion.

@@user-ch4ex3yy4lI get the point that my example is a stretch. But when we are talking about *logically impossible* my point is that is a really high standard and we need to be careful what we call impossible.

I love sean and Christ but as soon as you say something is impossible the brains start trying it.@@user-ch4ex3yy4l

I agree, but in Christianity not everyone believe in free will, like Calvinists - sovereignty of God makes everything predestined and if God is sovereign that he's in control of everything - then this whole argument crumbling, and God looks like good playing drama with human actors, for what reason, I don't know, maybe entertainment - I wish this discussion be much deeper, this was more like promo show for tickling ears....

God drowns babies. Is that good?

Oh isn't the problem that God does evil; like in the Bible he does wicked things, tell folk to do wicked things, and punishes those who are kind. That is the problem of evil that Aplogiticist are won't to avoid.

The problem of evil cannot be understood in flippancy.

Only if you have no clue what free means. If I said to you make me a cup of tea or I will pour the boiling water over you, is that free will? It is your god.

@@kevinkelly2162 you may be a little confused: - My comment is a critique of the argument Sean McDowell raised against the problem of evil, it is not a defense of any theistic model - My comment is not about what God has done, it is about what God can do hypothetically - I don't have a God-belief, so saying something is "your god" to me is missing the mark.

What about God telling folk to be wicked ... Is god concerned that if left alone well be nice to each other

Ok, but that's not loving. Love does not rejoice in iniquity. Love bears the burdens of others, not creates them

@@PiRobot314 this is love AGAPE that we walk after the commandments of God. No questions asked. No free will , it is all God's will . If we like it or not .

@@georgeblevins3391 So if I ask a question, is that God talking to Himself? Since even my asking a question is God's will. That's a funny thought.

What right thinking person would worship a being that had bears eat 42 children for calling some old man baldy?

Jesus affirmed that darkness had power in Luke. Your theory is false.

@@keatsiannightingale2025 ἐξουσία τοῦ σκότους does not refer to magical ability, but to authority. This should be clear based on who he says this to, the same people he has spent his entire ministry berating for their abuse of authority. Darkness has no ability to do the things God does. They can't make the wind blow, slam doors shut, rattle chains, or knock things off tables. The only thing Darkness can do is Lie to you. They have no magical power to manipulate time and space.

I hear you to an extent. But then the atheist has to say that nothing created everything. Which is harder to believe? God is good but allows suffering for reasons we are not fully aware of or nothing created everything?

@@curiousgeorge555 _'the atheist has to say that nothing created everything'_ No atheist says that. We have no idea how matter [everything] came into existance. Its one of the big unanswered questions in science. And why 'created' when a natural explanation seems far more likely seeing as we have evidence for the natural and no evidence for the supernatural. _'God is good but allows suffering for reasons we are not fully aware of'_ God works in mysterious ways. The 'get out of jail free card' for any argument for God.

​@@johnhammond6423 Give me a break. ALL atheists have to say that. I think your reasoning skills need some honing. There was a big bang. The universe had a beginning. It was either a creator or it created itself from nothing.

@@curiousgeorge555 _'It was either a creator or it created itself from nothing'_ So who created the creator? Sorry but some theists just cant be reasoned with. They live in their own little world of make believe and they are not coming out for anyone. I will waist no more time on you my friend. Bye.

@@johnhammond6423 You're assuming that the creator was created. He exists eternaly. Any way you look at it something HAD to have always existed. The question is what is more reasonable. That matter and energy always existed or that an eternal spiritual being always existed. You're right though. Some people can't be reasoned with. I get the strong feeling that you are one of those people.

That's because there's an implicit "under theism" on that statement, it's called an internal critique.

@@simonodowd2119 The "internal" critique makes external assumptions.

@@les2997 exactly, it adopts the assumptions of the worldview it is critiquing; I don't understand what the problem is....

​@@simonodowd2119 Evil is evidence for God. Nature is neither good nor bad. Nature is indifferent. Therefore, this internal critique presupposes a universe with God in it, which is what it is supposed to refute.

@@les2997 that's what an internal critique is, that's a feature, not a bug. The world doesn't *actually* have to have evil in it, for "evil" to be a problem. It goes like this. 1. If the Christian God exists, there is no gratuitous evil 2. There is gratuitous evil 3. The Christian God does not exist. Naturalism is not a factor in the argument.

Here we go

Judgment. God causes kings to rise and fall

@@user-ch4ex3yy4l Donald Trump isn't evil, relax

@@user-ch4ex3yy4l We all are lol.

@@user-ch4ex3yy4l Jesus' enemies were those who spent their lives focused on everyone else's sins instead of their own.

miracles are events that defy the laws of physics, not defying logic. I’d say the problem of evil and miracles are two separate issues in that sense

God may have used evil angels as henchmen, but don't worry, He was also willing to do the dirty work himself (verse 31-32) (Notice that the "sin" mentioned is in not believing His wondrous works. Is God Arrogant much?)

"There is evil because God allowed choice." So with your god it's the free will choice of the evil doers that gets priority over the free will choice of the victims who would prefer not to be victimized. That is messed up. If the free will choice of evil doers really was so important to your god there is a way around that and still prevent victims from being harmed>>imagine there is a man about to harm a child>>your god could put a force field around the child to protect him/her from harm and still preserve the precious free will choice of the evil doer.

That it is raining I best bring an umbrella. Why what did you learn

Sure, so blame the creation for the Creator’s design. How logical lol

Remember, humans within creation were designed to act autonomously with their own free will and responsibility. It is perfectly rational to blame creation for going against its Creator if it acts freely rebellious.

You seem to suppose that it is God doing the inflicting. Where do you get that? How is it any different to suggest that God created good, and his creations willfully rejected the good, and evil is the byproduct of our own actions? Not punishment, but just the natural aftermath, the result of our rejection of perfection is that we are evil and by our evil, evil continues to exist. Sounds a lot to me that the sickness and pain and suffering is our own doing... and God CAN work good through that evil despite our rejection of the good.

One of Satan's greatest deceptions is that JESUS GOD is somehow evil because evil exists. Let me remind you friend, if He did just wipe out ALL EVIL He'd wipe out every single person or just as well not even make us in the first place. The Bible verse Genesis 6:6 KJV "And it REPENTED the LORD that he had MADE MAN on the earth, and it GRIEVED HIM at his HEART." shows how much the LORD loves US, that He was so grieved at heart when the fallen angels"took wives" (by force-this doesn't mean they married them but literally took whatever wives from the men that they lusted for) and begot wretched offspring that weren't given life by God's spirit or a soul, no, they weren't made in God's image like we are; they were called Nephilim aka fallen ones and were animated by the Spirit of lawlessness of the devil which is at work in all fallen angels, and had no souls so they were pure evil. Referred to as "men of renown" not in some good way but renowned for their powers, unnatural abilities, size/stature and they were hideously evil, and corrupted the bloodlines of mankind doing terrible things to mankind and to God's Creation to the point it REPENTED GOD to have even made mankind at this point and yet He still knew all that would come and had decided before ever making Creation that we are worth it to Him.. We are worth Him EVEN allowing us, in our free will to CHOOSE SELF aka SIN, DEATH and HELL/Lake of Fire forever and it wouldn't be TRUE LOVE without free will; God is EVERYTHING GOOD, thus all good is of Him and comes from Him.. so everything/every choice apart from Him is purely evil, devoid of all good and yet He permits us to choose to reject love-love is SELFLESSNESS, not emotion/passion/sex/lust, though some of those can be byproducts of love, love is SELFLESSNESS, SELFLESS COMMITMENT; He allows us to choose evil, to choose apart from Him, which is to choose selfishness AKA SIN instead of SELFLESSNESS aka LOVE, JESUS GOD Who is LOVE, TRUTH and EVERYTHING GOOD, because He loves US enough to respect and honor our choice to reject Him, reject love, and choose death instead.. Death is separation from God and choosing to die in sins means choosing to be apart from God, forever, for we are made to exist forever though the LORD would love for us all to choose Him, SALVATION, ETERNAL LIFE, LOVE, JOY, PEACE, for eternity. If there were no one choosing to do evil, if none COULD do evil, if none could actually reject JESUS GOD Who is LOVE and EVERYTHING GOOD, and choose to be selfish even unto the point they die in sins and go to hell/lake of fire, there wouldn't be EVIDENCE OF FREE WILL to any of us and therefore wouldn't be TRUE LOVE. The LORD always does what's good and right. He originally DID make us perfect, just like Lucifer was perfect and yet we, mankind , chose SELF and if not Adam and Eve then it would've been someone else eventually, just as Lucifer who was perfect, a most beautiful angel in all his ways, still chose SELF, And then some other angels who looked up to him also chose SELF, and so they were cast out of heaven but not all are locked up in Tartarus, those ones are the ones who begot the Nephilim through extremely grotesque sexual immorality, and the reason is so they can tempt us, do evil against us but they can't do anything God doesn't allow. If there weren't temptation in the first place how could there truly be free will and the opportunity to exercise it? There wouldn't be. The LORD is JUST. No one incapable of committing sin, though still having an evil sinful NATURE, goes to hell. Example, my son is 7, nonverbally autistic. I myself am likely on the spectrum and my wife too. She and I understand enough to actually commit sins and are now SAVED by Jesus thanks be to Him forever! Our son says he understands if you ask him by saying "yeeee!" And giving a 👍 but does he really truly grasp right from wrong? No, not yet at least. He does understand some things are evil and he believes in Jesus God. But the point is, the LORD doesn't count his actions as sins against Him, instead He IMPUTES His righteousness unto my son and all young children whose purpose for the Lord in this life were to be here very little time, and all who can't reach a point of understanding right from wrong (regardless of age) and still choose to do wrong aka SIN, they're all covered by the SINLESS BLOOD of JESUS GOD by Him imputing it to them because he's GOOD and RIGHTEOUS and always does what's good and right. As for what people call "defects" aka differences some are born with or develop, our genetic material is CORRUPTED by sin. We do NOT get more advanced with time: we are decaying. A very obvious fact seeing as with age everyone worsens! Evolution is total nonsense. But people buy it and cling to it because they love their darkness rather than God's love and light, for His light exposes their sins and they don't like that. We MUST be willing to suffer for the LORD'S sake. We must be willing to suffer for other's sake. We must die to SELF, to SINS and step into New LIFE, with JESUS living in US, for US, for OTHERS, all for GOD'S GLORY because He deserves it ALL and because when we glorify He who is EVERYTHING GOOD, the result is EVERYTHING GOOD for all who are His, FOREVER. Yeah this life in this fallen world is hard, but that's a result of SIN and when children or anyone are stricken by cancer or whatever, though GOD allows it, it doesn't mean He won't heal them and doesn't mean He isn't using it for our good because He works ALL things together for our good, to those who LOVE HIM and are the CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. And if He doesn't heal them, that's for their good, and ours, as well, whether we understand it at the time or not. We can ask Him to reveal to us the reason. But instead many just want someone to blame when in fact, All of mankind and Lucifer aka Satan and all the demons.. All of us are the ones to blame. It rains on the JUST and rains on the UNJUST. The sun shines on the righteous and on the unrighteous. The LORD gives and the LORD takes: BLESSED IS THE NAME OF THE LORD! If we ask anything in His Will, He will do it if we actually Believe in Him and Believe FAITHFULLY He will do what we've asked Him to in confident prayer, He will do it. He doesn't demand blind FAITH.. HE COMMANDS TRUE FAITH, AND PROVIDES ALL THE EVIDENCE WE COULD WANT. We all know the TRUTH... It's a matter of us choosing to STOP SUPPRESSING the TRUTH. If we humble ourselves and GENUINELY call on JESUS CHRIST GOD ALMIGHTY IN our heart, and even just ask Him to reveal Himself to us, to show you the TRUTH.. And actually mean it with all our heart, then He WILL. So you don't need me or anyone else to show you, continue to list more of the TRUTH of GOD's WORD... If you want the TRUTH for REAL you'll just go to THE SOURCE OF ALL TRUTH, JESUS CHRIST GOD ALMIGHTY, by calling on Him GENUINELY IN OUR HEART, WHOLEHEARTEDLY AND ASK HIM FOR THE TRUTH, BELIEVING HE WILL GIVE IT TO YOU and He surely will.

You raise a heart felt and logical argument. As a Christian my response is I don’t know why God allows innocent children to die. Two thoughts (1) there are many things I do not understand about God’s ways. Just because I do not understand the reason for suffering does not rule out that there is a purpose for the suffering (2) Christianity is the only religion in the world where God suffers - Christ who was God suffered death unfairly. This helps me during difficult times - knowing God suffered. Pain sucks!

Sure, god didn't want automatons, but did God have to order the burning to death of babies, unborn to be wripped from their mothers womb and girls made sex slaves. Perhaps God was thinking if left to our own we'd be nice to each other and we can't have that

In the movie The Trial of God based on Elie Wiesel play one of the characters presents an sad conundrum about Free Will. The man had three sons who are taken by the Nazies. He implores the Soldier to give him back his sons. The soldier seems to have a quota for the concentration camps or something; so offers to release one of the father's sons and asked him to choose. Where is the father's free will in this matter?

So with your god it's the free will choice of the evil doers that gets priority over the free will choice of the victims who would prefer not to be victimized. That is messed up. If the free will choice of evil doers really was so important to your god there is a way around that and still prevent victims from being harmed>>imagine there is a man about to harm a child>>your god could put a force field around the child to protect him/her from harm and still preserve the precious free will choice of the evil doer. On the other hand, when I wake up in the morning I don’t have to talk myself out of going out and committing evil acts and causing suffering. Did your god create me? If yes then couldn’t he have created everybody with the same mindset that I have?

"Again, God couldn’t do tens of thousands of miracles every day without causing those who don’t want to worship Him to feign loyalty." If God knows who's loyal and who's not, then what difference does it make whether they feign loyalty? Why does that matter?

@chad969 I guess my answer would be, I would rather have my children love me than pretend to love me. True authentic love is a thing of beauty, fake love is the worst anyone could do to another.

@@sbaker8971 I can understand why you would rather have your children love you than pretend to love you, but here's why that example is not analogous to what I was asking about. The statement of yours that I was responding to did not say that if God does lots of miracles, then people who love god will stop loving him and pretend to love him instead. Your statement was: “God couldn’t do tens of thousands of miracles every day without causing *_THOSE WHO DON’T WANT TO WORSHIP HIM_* to feign loyalty” When you said "those who don't want to worship him," presumably you were talking about people who don't love God, *_regardless_* of whether he does miracles. So my question is, what difference does it make whether those people feign loyalty or not? It's a non-answer to respond by saying, _'because truly loving god is better than faking love for God',_ since the people we're talking about aren't going to truly love God, REGARDLESS of whether he does miracles.

@chad969 Got it. Thanks for the clarification. Just FYI, the original statement I posted is not mine. That's why I used quotes. My answer would still be along the same thinking, however. I believe in God, not because I've witnessed miracles, had miracles done for me, have 100% physical evidence of Him. If, as atheist claim that all God needs to do is show Himself and everyone would believe, that's not faith. Faith in God is what He wants, not proof He is God before believing in Him. Hope that satisfies your question