I recently met with Luminar's chief tech who explained why it's not as simple as you might think... I may cover it in a video

@@AnthonyTurnham If you can, I'd like to see a video on that, please

​@@AnthonyTurnham It is as simple as @ninjatogo thinks, because it was in the original iteration of Luminar 2018, as well as luminar 3, if I am remembering correctly. You could reorder at any time, much faster than how slow Neo is. There's really no excuse on their behalf.

I don't think it's an issue of simplicity. Certainly not from an implementation point of view. The issue is that the tools affect everything that sits above, so if you've got say a 15 tool stack that's creating your edit and you pull the top tool down to 5th in the stack, for example, the user has to wait for 10 tools above to be recalculated. Skylum feel the gains from adding this feature are out-weighed by the user potentially waiting for their processor to create the updated look. And after giving it a lot of thought I agree.

@@AnthonyTurnham ah yes, and reverting the file to original and the reloading all those 15 edits in the order you really want it is so much faster than the recalculation time of simply reordering them, just like you could in the original version of luminar. It just doesn't make sense and it's lazy not to offer this piss easy function.

My pleasure! Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I too love to understand the why's behind things.

i second this recommendation which is especially needed since the correct order is not on the screen without a KZfaq tag for another of your wonderful vids thus a screenshot is not doable. thumbs up.

Glad you like them!

Thanks, will do!

Glad it was helpful!

Happy to help!

agree -- a .rtf file linked in the original text message of all tutorials would be easy to do and offer to viewers. Personally, I feel the a straighten and crop at the beginning of the edit is a good idea but I know that there will be debate. Also, I also love to do a quick single image HDR to just see where one can go and maybe the areas the might wish to have adjustments during the edit process. Also, does the order make a difference if editing an original .jpg rather than a RAW image? Just a few thoughts and questions.

Thanks Thomas!

Nice idea, I'll see about a pdf...

Early on, after develop raw and making the photo technically sound, but before any creative work.

It's more simple than you'd think. If you're wondering if you should use a layer then it's likely the answer is no. Unless you have a specific reason such as compositing or a layer with a blend mode, avoid layers and use tools with masks on the base layer only. Hope that helps

Yep, sure. I'm not saying that there is only one correct way to apply the tools I just want people to be aware there is a potential for different results depending on the order and to make informed decisions as they edit.

Hmmm... yeah they do have a minimum specs page on their website, but tbh you want to be maxing your RAM memory and getting as fast processor as you can afford. The graphics card isn't as important for 2D editing as most people think. If your budget permits running luminar and your photos from an m.2 ssd is also a nice improvement over traditional hard drives or basic SSDs.

All depends with presets what's being applied. But effectively it's throwing a load of tools over the top of your photo so it's subject to these effects. Luts are just a "filter" manipulating colour and tone. They will affect subsequent tools for sure and should be used towards the very end of the process. Usually as a last touch

Yes You can go back to re edit the raw tool lower in the stack.

@@AnthonyTurnham before using other tools however if I understand you and others correctly. Hope I am not misunderstanding the process but let me know please.

Yes there should be more. Do a search on my channel homepage for "layers" and you'll find a few vids you should find helpful about using blend modes etc.

as I recall, there are a few tutorials related to Luminar that suggests doing presets first as what you have found is normal for the program.

Yes, it's a bit of a shame how this works. But it's the same with most programs and how the presets work. Lightroom does have the ability to pick and choose which tools are added to the preset and which are excluded. This allows for individual edits to remain intact if you apply a preset that targets other tools. I'd love Neo to introduce this feature. For now though a workflow option is to export your "technical edits" (ie edits that aim for authenticity, good exposure, good colour balance and good dynamic range) and then have a second version where you can apply a preset to your already adjusted file. Hope that makes sense....

@@AnthonyTurnham That's a good idea, Anthony. I've been just going into the Edit stack and trying to tweak it to my liking. The main thing I'm after is the camera profile and a few other basic Develop edits. After learning about the importance of profiles from you, that's the first thing I do in every edit!

For the way I work, it depends on the level of noise. If the file really needs help then I'll hit it as a first step paired with dev raw. Otherwise I may just use a light pass of non-AI noise correction at some point.

@@AnthonyTurnham thanks for that. I'm a novice photographer in a lot of ways. Many thanks for the advice

Yes

Sounds like a good approach. There are so many workflow approaches and I use different ones depending on the genre I'm editing. If this is working for you, then stick with it :)

Luminar has many pixel level creative tools that by their very nature move away from the raw pixels. As soon as this happens its impossible to maintain a raw editing workflow. However the original file remains in tact. You can always remove tools and step back in the edit so from that point of view there is no actual file destruction, so strictly speaking it's non-destructive. If you stick to the raw develop which is pretty much all lightroom offers then in Neo too you're still in a completely non-destructive workflow.

No, not in Lightroom or Capture 1. Depends which On1 program you're referring to, and yes as you build layers and tools in photoshop it's also subject to these effects of changing orders. Some are more pronounced than others.

@@AnthonyTurnham Thank you for your reply. I guess that this consideration is rather specific to Neo.

I'll see about making a pdf. Just travelling at the moment so it's hard to get around to any proper work.

I actually had a good chat with the chief engineer about this and the reason the re-ordering isn't practical is because the edit is calculated as a stack with each effect layered on top of yhe next. If you reorder a tool and place it elsewhere in the stack Neo needs to recalculate all tools layered in the stack and that'll affect performance and user experience. So the multiple application of tools is a double edged sword. Fantastic for creative possibilities, but not allowing for that reordering.

@@AnthonyTurnham I understand they could give a reason like that, but they recalculate stack either way if you move to the bottom of it, so their reason for not doing it is moronic. They could easily do this a non-problematic feature if they used brains a bit, when you move an effect to the beginning in the direction of beginning of the stack they could then use this as a new active effect the same way you select effects yourself in the stack to re-edit them, this way you need to recalculate the stack only up till the placement of effect you just moved, this way you're not slowing down because you have to take snapshot of effects up till this point (which they seem to do anyway) and calculate 1 effect you just placed. Then when you move to the end of the stack to see end result it would recalculate the rest, which it would have to do anyway after you make changes to prior items. And I often have to go back as I use pretty heavy handed edits, so if you go back to develop, which this way I just have to have in presets, it's zeroed out but it have to be there, because after RAW develop Luminar works on a file with limited bitrate, which will ultimately result in you clipping highlights, banding and other unwanted effects, then you have to move back to develop, and adjust the base. With develop they could just always add it zeroed out in case anyone would forget. But some plugins you use more artistically? Yea you have to scrape all you've done till now pretty much because you have effect you'd rather see earlier on, so you have to go about and delete all effects up till point of interest, and start over from there, which imo is bigger problem than re-calculating results. I know why they're not doing this, and it's not because it's so challenging from engineering standpoint, it's that they focus on new features, so they can sell plugins to the application, that's because bug fixes, and work improvements to something you already sold won't bring you more money, and I understand that, but also this feature don't seem like a lot of engineering, they could add this as experimental feature hidden behind menu or something, they just don't want to. Sorry for wall of text, but this needed some light cast on it. Anyway I appreciate you speaking with them, it's just bad they're not very honest in their approach.

It works fine with tiffs and jpegs too you just need to be aware of the order thingy. Usually activating it as a plugin you will already have done some type of raw develop in lr or ps etc so you'll be fine. I often use Neo this way.

@@AnthonyTurnham 🫡🫡

You'll get the same effect, just appearing where you've masked. The logic behind what's going on will be the same regardless.

@@AnthonyTurnham Thanks

You're right. But don't forget lightroom's toolset is just manipulating raw data. When Neo works in raw develop which is akin to lightroom's toolset it also remains non destructive. It's just that Neo's mote creative tools have to work on a pixel level

Hi. I'm actually not in the office. I'm taking a month off for travel and to see my parents. I also got to meet the Skylum team. Bloody good folk actually! This vid and the next one were recorded before I left. So no sorry I haven't had a chance to log in to that email yet.

Yeah, I get your point and I could have elaborated on exactly what I meant but kinda just glossed over it in the vid. To break it down there's two ways to look at whether or not something is editing "destructively". The first and most simple way is can I return to my original state, and if the answer is yes then and my file is still in tact then the editing is non-destructive. If that's our criteria then yes 100% Neo is a non-destructive editor. But I look at it in a slightly different way, from the perspective of am I losing data as my edit evolves. So in Lightroom for example, I could boost my exposure to +5 and blow out everything. BUT I could then add a curves adjustment that recovers that data. This isn't possible in Luminar. Each subsequent tool bakes a new iteration of pixel data that is the base point for the edit from there on. That's what I'm referring to when I said it was destructive. On another note. Thanks for watching Darlene, and also commenting with a thoughtful response. I appreciate it and appreciate what you do on the tube too x Best regards, Anthony 😀

@@AnthonyTurnham Thanks so much for noticing my little channel LOL. As for your point about Luminar - well, yes you can go back and recover it later because the Develop Raw tool is always at the bottom of the edits and you can go back there in the history and alter the settings and get it back. So... LOL

Don't forget though that the file can be edited as a raw with pretty much the same toolset as lightroom via the develop raw tool. It's only once Neo starts introducing the more creative pixel specific tools that we step away from the raw file. Similar to editing a raw file in Lightroom and then taking it into Photoshop and applying pixel level editing.

@@AnthonyTurnham yeah, but in Lightroom you can add masks during raw editing while in luminar it has to be after the raw stage, it just feels like it's missing somethings, like after you use dehaze you arn't raw anymore? All these options in Lightroom though? Maybe Im wrong

@@deathspawn54 yeah, fair point. TBH it's one of the reasons I love lightroom so much because you stay raw with all the edits. For a photography purist LR is brilliant. But I also like adding in more creative effects and that's where Neo comes into its own. For my architecture workflow I'll usually start in LR and then migrate to Neo fro the finishing touches.

@@AnthonyTurnham I get that, I'm trying to get away from LR right now but the non raw edits make it hard lol

😅 stupid? Not at all. Everyone's at different levels and you only know what you know. I've been photo editing for 30 years so I kinda take some things for granted, but at one point I didn't know an f stop from a bus stop 😆