Viral 🤞

A bit more than pretty cool. But the power efficiency of the digital drive is not cool at all...

​@@paulbizard3493 True. It's hard to achieve as much as 70% efficiency, but this doesn't matter. On the flat, the needed power output is low anyways, and on hilly terrain, an electric powertrain will recharge and give back 70% of the energy while with a mechanical drivetrain the energy will go to waste. With an energy bank of a couple of kWh, it should be the better choice for most trips.

Thanks, I was curious about this. One point you have shown but IMO not put enough emphasis on. With this you can easily divide power output between multiple wheels (especially interesting for 3+ wheeled vehicles). You can also easily power a steered wheel (I presume that is what gives the cargo bike around 9.30 that amazing maneuverability). Keep up the good work

Electrom Light Electric Vehicle must have been a part of this video. There is a KZfaq channel on how that guy creates and the every improvements he makes.

I was screaming internally the entire time. "Digital"means of or relating to numerical digits or fingers. It has nothing to do with methods of power generation.

& this is objectively analog right? Unless it’s just a computer recording your break intensity & directing an equivalent level of power from the battery, with no direct, variable, connection between pedals & engine.

Right. I thought who came up with calling this "digital". There's nothing digital about it. Whoever thought to call it digital needs to learn its meaning.

Yes this is a series hybrid drive. The electronic control is digitally implemented but that is not essential to the concept. An annoying name.

@@yerald_a from the description there is definitely a computer involved. The pedals are just a dynamo for charging up the battery.

almost as good as an indoor excercise bike!

@@Padlock_Steve you missed the joke so badly it's not even funny

​@@Padlock_Steve It's genuinely dangerous to use bikes for travel here. I've had two different cyclists die close to places I've lived because they got hit by cars. Bikes in the U.S(at least in the south) are something you take to trails or parks.

What i thought....cannot be efficient or we would be all using it already

@@robertcowher I can’t stress enough that there are LOADS of US cities that heavily emphasize bike use

Crazy what we can do with modern technology

I'm sold!

Wait until they add solar panel 😂😂😂

They forgot you need a motor at the front for regen while breaking.

I think an AWD ebike would be a very very interesting thing to handle obstacles with. You could climb a lot of obstacles with some watts pulling you up by the front wheel!

There is no benefits in such system if you lost 50% of energy into generator and then again in motor.

cycling on ice / sand perhaps

Combine AWD with traction control and fat tyres and you end up with a bike that can ride in the sand. Aka beach bike.

@@bobsnabby2298 50% loss is too much, but 20-30% would be fine, having in mind this has benefit for e-bikes, not traditional ones

Remember, that efficiency of 95% for derailleur bikes is fresh out of the workshop. Drive it for a week/month in bad weather and things change. This might not be the right thing for a peak performance bike that gets constant maintenance. But think about a commuter bike, that gets serviced once/twice a year the story is quite different.

@@etherealicer True, but I don't think it ever drops below 90%, even for a really dirty chain and worn teeth. 58% efficiency really is terrible, and that's not even accounting for the extra weight. Still, it probably has a niche somewhere. Public electric bikes schemes seems like a good use case

@@jackroutledge352 It also is not accounting for recuperation. I don't know the numbers (and a quick google search I did has not revealed anything). For me, I can see about 10% loss of speed* (though a good part also comes from poor tire pressure) and I do pretty regular maintenance (oiling / pumping up the tires). I do annual oil change on my rohloff speed hub, as it is combined with more thorough maintenance which usually results in 15-20% better speed. * I daily commute for 2.6km in any weather.

@@jackroutledge352 The day I do my maintenance, my bike is usually in better shape than the average commuter bike (But I'm also pushing it going roughly 30km/h top speed, not bad for an 18kg steel mule). No idea how these losses translate to efficiency, but I think there is a quite significant loss. Of course this is very hypothetical and anecdotal. Really curious about actual every day efficiency of bikes.

@@etherealicer the efficiency of an external chain bicycle drivetrain with a high quality chain with the right lubricant, clean, fresh… is a little over 98%. Dirt, wear, poor lubrication… do lower this but in poor conditions typically stay well above 90% for a bicycles’ chain drivetrain. There is no comparison between a digital drive and chain bicycle drivetrain in efficiency. A 58% efficiency rating is abysmal - think 1-1.5 flat tires for something significantly heavier that costs more. A high torque electric motor is heavy due to copper and copper is expensive. Besides a good mechanical system is typically more durable/longer lasting than a digital electronic version. Hand crank car windows will typically perform without any needed maintenance or parts replacement whereas electric windows will be needing multiple maintenance services and a few parts replaced. The simpler option is typically going to be the more durable and efficient. Digital drive bicycles only come close to being a good choice when talking about e-bikes. Will future innovations possibly change that? Yes. That said in 1890 bicycles featured a diamond shaped frame based around hollow tubing, power went to the rear wheel based on a chain, wheels were made with tensioned wire spokes and featured air filled rubber tires. The best bicycles today typically have the same features. Yes some bikes will have a belt drive. So magical game changing innovations can happen but don’t count on them in our lifetimes. Given the poor execution of many “innovations“ that I see in newer bikes I dread actual changes. Frames are commonly out of alignment, poor welds, poorly aligned bearing raced, sloppy tolerances… are typical issues with new bikes. So if a drive system which looses 21x more energy, requires the bicycle to be significantly heavier while being more expensive and most likely harder to work on is something which sounds like an amazing innovation to you and deserving your money than go for it. Yes 21x more energy 98% vs 58% or 2% vs 42% loss.

😅🐰💩

efficiency = 10^-10

Are you looking fpor sponsorship? I'm all in.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

😂😂😂😂😂

This is a bit of a flawed stance isn't it? Most parts on a normal bike are required for its operation too. If your chain fails, or your gears fail, your normal bike would be pretty useless as well. There is something to be said for not overcomplicating an elegant design, tho. This digital drive system currently seems to have significant wdisadvantages in comparison to the old system, but both have many single points of failure. One could probably argue that the digital drive one has more redundancies than a normal bike, as it could use motor braking when normal brakes fail. Or that it could run without the generator pedals for a while if there is juice in the battery.

@@MrJoerT Sorry I don't subscribe to the idea that adding electronics/electricity to proved design is a step in the right direction. 50 years down the line a regular bike may still be operational, this: without an industry to produce replacement parts, you can kiss it goodbye. I like my gear resilient, not fancy.

@@neobscura Fair enough. 🙂

Just buy an electric motorcycle😂 no stupid pedaling😂

@@jasmijnariel What about AN ELECTRIC MOPED. Huh ?! BEST OF WORST WORLDS !

The slight gain would hardly be worth the cost or added complexity.

regen braking is available on conventional e-bikes

A man of culture

This needs to be upvoted.

Exactly, as an Engineer .. this idea of absolutely STUPID. But could make some sense for a plug in battery powered bike that would occasionally be pedaled.

Age! For those not as young... Could utilize, operate, and actually be able to do...

@@KrustyKlown ok so this is what i dont get then. Mr engineer, why is it that diesel eletric on trains exist? Ik, i also dont get how it is better than a drivetrain but its like the only way they do it. How come?

Exactly. A clean chain is 98% effective. A great electric motor is 90-ish %, plus the generator at your feet, making a total efficiency of what, 80% in near ideal conditions? No one would want to ride a bike with a chain that only got 80% because it would feel like a brick.

I would accept it if it had 80% efficiency

@@tarsvanhoof3766 Especially going uphills with your heavy load won't work on a electric motor but on a chain which your strength matters a lot.

@@tarsvanhoof3766 its actually much less efficient than 80%, closer to 60%. would never be adopted in my opinion.

One thing where it excel is on going uphill. The pedaling is generally the same, so you don't have to exert yourself.

Yeah, no... People like you don't seems to understand that electric motors and generators are far from having a perfect efficiency, you'll basically need to force about 2x more to get the same speed as normal bicycle so I'm not sure that's a very good tradeoff just to get a tiny bit of regenerative braking once in a while...

​@@Alfred-NeumanElectric motors nowadays, at least ones suitable for this, are over 95% efficient. This goes for both the driving motor and the generator. The motor controller can and usually is over 93% efficient, up to 97% efficient. This is literally more efficient than belt drive. Make it recumbent and enclosed, and it would be way better (faster) than a usual bike, more efficient at speed, and with a small battery, better overall for commutes.

​@@vladlu6362 But is it worth sacrificing repairability ? Especially when there is a lot less data on the reliability of this technology. On my cheap bike if something breaks I can fix it myself in less than an hour for pretty cheap. If the motor or generator breaks, it's gonna be an expensive repair if it's even possible.

mighty morphin...

The conventional systems have been refined over many innovations and iterations for many decades. Bikes today are surprisingly more efficient and better than the bikes we rode as kids. But electric-powered and electric-assisted bikes will always appeal to people who lack strength and endurance.

@@pwnmeisterage very true Also they cost more and r not worth it anymore

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have made 2 electric bikes from kits and bought one prefab model. I could see this design excelling for those who just city cruise or easy trail riding which could also easily be done with existing chain drive pedal assist. Nevertheless, it’s an interesting concept.

@@pwnmeisterage or are just plain lazy

Personally I would just put the hub motor at the pedals.

Takes a moron to make something more complicated, takes a genius to make something simple -idk who said it

Things often get more expensive and complicated to start with, then when they're at the mass market stage they're cheaper than the alternative - I see this being one of those. If it catches on it will end up being significantly cheaper due to the types of parts and engineering tolerances required vs the current chains and cogs.

You mean like technology? Can you name any tech that isn't more complicated?

@@krane15 But technology is supposted to give us benefits. Like the bulb over the candle. This gives no real advantages. Single speed bike, even not geared specificaly for the rider and conditions is going to be better.

@@M_Jaggard You really think bicycle chain has more precise manufacturing tolerances than generator or electric motor..? Or that one day a simple chain will be more expensive to manufacture than an electric motor or generator..?

Capacitor instead of battery?

things did change A LOT. but yes it will never come on a level of a chain drive.

@@jebise1126 you cant know that

😕 ~30% increase in efficiency is not to bad considering there is barely any market for this tech.

Sorry, I got through about 5 minutes and lost interest. I could make a more efficient digital drive in my sleep.

He got his millions of views out of us idiots, so who cares.

At.least they didn't call it a smart bike

Well, maybe if it uses a synchronous motor with a square tooth wave DC pulse width modulated generated power signal off the crank? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Could aaaaaaaaalmost call that a binary signal…. Baahahahahahaha It just sends a constant 101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 🤣🤣🤣

If we add crypto somewhere might be a successful bike actually

In Yugoslavia we had the TOMOS line of bikes. It was classified as a bicycle with an auxiliary engine. Technically you could use it as a normal bicycle, but let's be real, no one did that. They had a 49cc engine, an automatic transmission and had a top speed of 45 km/h (legally at least, realistically it could go a good bit quicker). Is that not what most of the e-bike crowd want? They'd be buying these bicycles with the pretense of "getting some exercise" while the damn thing drives you fully under its own power. Why not just get an electric moped if they are about the same price?

I actually doubt the speed that it can get to for commuting in some areas If it is only 25 kph then you won't be able to get into roads

True! Agreed! Btw, if you're riding you should get an nta helmet like xnito or bern hudson, cpsc helmets aren't really safe

Great video. I can definitely see this being useful for electric bikes, particularly applications like delivery bikes. The efficiency will need to improve a lot for it to be serious competition to conventional drivetrain.

At this point, just get an electric moped to commute, this digital drive system seems just like a legal technicality to get electric cars and light trucks into bike lanes.

Replace the standard bike? Well except the ebike! 😉🤣

Also you could have a strap on the pedal of your good leg to help the other.

This is still an energy-consuming process because you are not fully relaxed during pedal rotation. Digital bicycles could provide a more efficient way to spend your energy rotating pedals. Personally, I think the efficiency could achieve 90-95% with the right digital control system.

@@gguy156 On a digital drivetrain you still have to rotate through the dead spot, so where is the advantage?

@@Anonymous-sb9rr You could adjust circuit to charge capacitors/battery when inertia push your bycicle forward. If the current flow is adjusted right you won't feel the difference in applying force. Also some energy of bicycle could be applied to decrease pedal resistance for more smooth pedalling. Like the narrator said, technology is more suitable for electric vehicles with batteries.

@@gguy156 Putting regenerative braking on an electric bicycle that still has a chain, would have the same result.

You would always need to pedal a lot more than what you get out

It's already twice as hard to ride an electric bike with a flat battery with a chain without more power loss.

And what about AWD bike? Here I see good chance to make pedal drive AWD bike

@@davidmowbray4230 My e-bike has a ratchet mechanism to automatically engage and disengage the motor, so there is basically no additional resistance when pedalling unassisted. Isn't every e-bike like that?

@@StefanReich they're just heavier. Regen brakes would be good for getting some energy back but i'd use a solar panel on the back before pedaling to generate electricity.

@@skirnir-atf they used to make electric bikes with the assisting motor in the front wheel, making them essentially awd bikes. They mostly don't exist anymore, because it's not comfortable nor safe to have too much weight in the front wheel, and because a bicycle with a driven front wheel is dangerous. If the front wheel loses grip you almost always fall down, and if it's slippery out a driven front wheel loses grip easily. Nowadays you pretty much only see rear hub motors and middle motors.

Yes! I was thinking this could be great for recumbent ebikes. They otherwise need *really* long chains - with extra cogs to guide them - and belt drives aren't suitable

I ride a trike and I'm not terribly interested in switching to a drive train that is heavier, less efficient, more expensive and can't be fixed DIY in the field. It might be a good option for people who need an electric assist due to limited mobility or elderly folks but that's about it. I tend to do pretty long rides (50+ miles) and I highly value the capability to fix nearly any mechanical problem roadside. Just knowing that I will be stranded if something goes wrong with my drive system is enough to turn me off from switching to a 'digital drive'.

That's the digital part. Establishing that bridge.

@@MidwestFarmToys Low speed balance. Above about 2 kph I couldn't care less about a non direct link between my feet and the rear wheel, but below this speed you actually rely on forward thrust to keep balance. If you had a unicycle powered like this, it would be unrideable. There is a mechanical relationship with this and bicycles

@@MidwestFarmToys It not a problem at all. Unless your consider advancements in technology a problem. It is the nature of all thing to evolve or advance unless you're a Luddite and want to remain in the dark ages. This is just another possible step forward in bicycle evolution.

@@AJ-oj5eu telll us you've never had your feet tied down to your pedals without saying it.

@@MidwestFarmToys yes I agree, converting mechanical energy into electrical and back to mechanical again, is overly complicating a simple design and to me seems..... excessive. Mid you I'll argue that an automatic transmission is bordering on extravagance too.

When can u have it ready?

@@fastinradfordable Depends what youre willing to pay, R&D and prototypes are costly!

A 2WD bike with this technology would be even worse, it would be less efficient, more heavy, and would take twice the effort to pedal because there is twice the number of motors.

@@theyeetus1428 Yes I know, but other than an extreme case where you actually need 2wd, I dont see a point of this type at all, as a 1wd setup it just doesnt have enough advantage vs standard way. But there is no other solution for 2wd so that is the only viable application.

This could be adapted to a NORMAL, pedal style bike. There are strong car CAP style jump starters already on the market at 12 volts DC. IF a (front?) hub can be designed to temporarily run on this 12 volt source and the regen, when needed, is applied to the Cap when a brake handle is applied or when a special handlebar lever is variably pulled to charge the Cap, as in downhill coasting, this could actually work. The cap, initially charged (quickly at home in minutes, or by riding with a slow charge being put in so as to not become "harder" to pedal) could be used for start-ups, minor hills, temporarily speeding past traffic or whatever. It would be interesting to see how much juice a Cap box would store for small, intermittent use on a bike, and the box is not heavy. While the bike could not "run" on this, it could be used for special moments when needed. I don't know how much "juice" would be needed for these short bursts of use, heavy or light, BUT, if it even works for 10-30 seconds at variable power, it would be a very fun experiment to explore. Someone with the knowledge to create a basic variable input to the motor is the only real obstacle, just to see if this could work. Fine tuning comes later. Simplicity must be maintained; nothing complicated should be developed. Once things become complicated, it becomes a failure and expensive to the masses. These car jumpers are about $200 or so. If these Cap boxes can jump a car at VERY high amps for about 10 seconds, imagine what it could maybe do at LOW amperage on a bike. This is one experiment I'd REALLY like to see someone do who has the available equipment around to play with. THIS experiment almost look doable. Any takers?

It is always analog. You can't drive a motor digitally. The name digital drive makes zero sense. Its just an e-bike that removes the chain.

@@xe-wf5iv I disagree - driving a motor via PWM would qualify as running it digitally in my mind, and technically you could PWM the generator side as well. Not a big fan of the naming, since I doubt it will always be PWM though, hence my original comment.

Any idea how slow a solar panel charges? A night rider could let the bike charge “over day” I guess. Also need more coal energy to make a solar panel than what coal directly delivers. I am looking for a coal fired bicycle. It is the most “green” of all.

@@jusuftheeagle6772 I was just saying it's an available option, not the be all end all

alas, heaters use crazy amounts of power. A small fan heater would take a couple of roided up Lance Armstrongs to power it

Most electric scooters are FWD, I don't know if it makes a big difference for commuting as you're never (hopefully) at the limit of traction.

Weight distribution favours rear wheel drive. Body position while peddling will always put more or most of your weight on the rear wheel, so it really does make the most sense to keep the drive power in the back. Similar but opposite to why the front brake is more effective than the rear. The second disadvantage in a hypothetical front wheel drive bike is if you lay down too much power, you'd lose steering control and could easily lead to the front wheel washing out. Back to the brake comparison, front brake control is a mountain bikers most important skill. Managing that the front brake is capable of the majority of your stopping power when riding downhill, with the risk of locking up the front wheel is an art. Could there be a use case for 2x2 bikes, where both wheels have power? Possibly, but they'd be few and far between. If riding in low traction environments like snow or gravel, there could be someone out there that would benefit from a front wheel that could deliver power. More so with utility bikes or heavier enclosed bikes like in the video. My 2 cents.

@@sumoneskid possibly a 2x2 could provide the torque needed at a lower motor weight?

Recumbent bikes with FWD do exist but you are creating more problems than solving them. In those cases you either have to sacrifice turning by having a regular steering on front as well or having a reduced turning radius with rear wheel steering.

Pretty sure the first bicycle with pedals were front-wheel drive and they changed the design because they weren't as stable.

I heard regenerative drive system is too heavy and expensive to put on a bike. Also it’s not digital!!

@@aaaaaaaard9586 It's not, electric motor can act as a generator too. My previous e-bike had regenerative brakes.

@@digitalspecter It says you need a different type of motor called direct drive motor for regen brake, which is heavier than normal motors. It also adds resistance on pedals, and creates heat when it brakes. All that for around 5% of battery saving.

Those have been around for ages.

@@aaaaaaaard9586 a lot of ebikes have direct drive motors, they're cheaper than mid drive. They're a bit heavier but way more reliable and don't require replacing your chain as often. A big benefit of them is when you're using the regen braking is slows you down without wearing out your break pads.

😂 add a bike to grid voltage converter and you could paticipate to your electricity consumption.

What are you going to do cycle 7 hours and produce a kw? Wow you earned yourself 35 cents.

I actually think a torque sensor is the wrong way to go. Why? Because in many situations you want to be able to modulate your speed. If the only way to slow down is to work less, you cannot build up power for that next hill. And if you don't save up, you will fail to make it up that hill. A hand throttle and optimizing your cadence and output you're willing to put in, could allow you ride with almost as much efficiency and certainty as you currently get with a parallel (traditional) pedalec. I think this video started out with the right concerns, that weight and efficiency losses mean we'll continue to use chains and belts.

@@karlInSanDiego You are absolutely correct. I immediately fell back to my "I hate these on normal bikes" mindset when I started thinking about front wheel drive. I do think they could be quite interesting and possibly advantageous though.

All wheel drive bicycles already exist - and have for decades. Look up christini all wheel drive bicycles. They have more control descending and improved drive traction for climbing. They work. So far the design hasn’t taken off. It doesn’t look like they will anytime soon.

Yupp, but kiss it. Pedals drive generator and charge battery. Battery drives motor. 1 gear , like a Tesla. Gears and chain on an ebike are just plain weird. Huge thanks .

All wheel drive is not needed unless you ride up and down soft sandy beaches. A military combat situation where you need to sprint with a burst of speed would be helpful. I would like to build a all-wheel drive bike just for off road fun…

regenerative braking only recovers 5% (10% max) of the braking energy or so due to the inefficient generator that recovers the waste energy

could you pedal while driving slow and when the battery is charged a bit drive without pedaling?

That is poppycock.@@davebing11

I'd also argue that it isn't "digital" it is very analog. Just electric.

The gearing is determined by the coiling. So it will be single speed and that's it. No easy way to have gear in this system.

@@K1989L isn't it pretty easy to control speed of an electric motor tho?

@@K1989L Actually quite digital for the controller driving the motor. For efficiency a synchronous motor is needed which means digital controller has to generate a variable frequency waveform. The controller has to be aware of current speed and current power requirement.

@@K1989L Synchronous motor where the digital controller does all the work. Full time electric cars have no gears. It is all magically done by the digital controller.

Jesus chill out, it's decent but this is a pretty amateur voice over ontop of stock footage, no need to make it sound like the Interstellar of cycling content

@@chrisogrady28 Says the nobody with 134 subs...lol

The information seems to be inaccurate.

Hydraulic drive efficiency are generally also around 50/60%, and that's with turbines. Should be checked for such a small device, but counting this could have been used anytime in the past 200 years and is not a currently known popular method, I guess the results are not very good.

That is only part of the problem.

you either have speed or you have torque you have to choose one if you dont have multiple gearing to use that or your bike quickly becomes a motorcycle legally

Some more points I like to note. 1. There is an e-bike named Electrom which is a recumbent design with an electric drive. This bike features a clutch at the pedals and the electric drive, allowing it to switch between a normal electric drive with the electric motor driving the chain and a series electric drive, where you pedal to recharge the battery. Such a clutch allows you to both do regenerative braking, charging using your pedals and using the more efficient traditional bicycle design with chain. Of course, such a design is going to be expensive and heavy. 2. Note that the chain drive electric bicycle design is not the most efficient design. If you want to go for a design that can provide more power, one of the things you can do is move the electromotor to the wheel, to increase efficiency. 3. For a city bike design with regenerative braking, you might want to switch to a design with a capacitor. The downside to a capacitor is the much lower energy density, meaning that you can only use it for accelerating after braking (or maybe something like a 1 km range), but the efficiency is higher, so you would not need to charge your e-bike. Braking provides a lot of power during a short amount of time, something a battery might not be able to handle as well.

Why not just ride a quality 'normal' bike. Adding 'digital' really does nothing but add complexity that is just not needed.

There twitter is abandandonded in 2019 and there recent blogging is not persuasive.... very delayed even channel here is 2021 arguing "artnered with EAV, Lavelle bikes, and Tunturi bikes. "

This will not have "a great future", chains have an efficiency of about 97%. That is insanely high, quite literally nothing compares to it. So it would be really dumb to throw that simple efficiency away

Because there’s no mechanical drivetrain that can handle the loads involved. Simplicity always wins.

And weight isn't an issue.

I think the way with this would be like Tesla did with cars. Instead of trying to make it “feel” like a traditional bicycle they should fully lean into the advantages of digital drive and embrace the differences.

@@Noadvantage246 Yeah maybe. I try to always be open minded, so we’ll see.

@@christill I hope some takes this up I think there’s a lot of potential here. I already got plenty ideas. For example if you had a digital drive bike with an electronic, daul-sided, kickstand; you could create a bike with launch control! The kickstand goes down and you pedal in place building up surge capacitors. Then with something like a thumb throttle you could launch it. The kickstand would retract instantly as the motors spin on full power! This would be hella fun and kinda funny to go from pedaling in place to taking off like a rocket. But it’d also be practical for commuters. You come to a light and can keep you pace a cadence going then take off back to your pre-set commute speed right away.

well the problem with the 4 wheel bike van you mention is cadence sensing, if it is torque sensing it is instantaneous dependant on controller settings ofcourse

Agree, for a recumbent it really would be a big advantage. The aero advantages would compensate for the inefficiency, the power transfer wouldn't be nearly as tricky as a mechanical recumbent (thus the relative weight penalty is less than in the upright case), you could easily add rear suspension which is a big boon for recumbent, and the electric drive makes the startup less daunting.

Electom is a company in Canada making recumbent, digital drive e-bikes. The channel Fort9 made a video about it some months ago.

@@max-zv7sf I think you mean Electrom.

That is what people said when others put chains and pedals on their walking bikes😉 In all seriousness. No drive-train lasts that long without maintenance and parts-replacement (unless you don't use it).

True, yet anyone that can handle a brush, spray cleaner and lube can do maintenance.

​@@jedibusiness789 The kind of maintenance that is not required in a system like this (well, you still have to maintain your tire pressure). I'm talking about replacing the chain/cassette/derailleur(s)/chain-ring(s)/gear-cables and then adjusting it, so the gears change properly again. There are really only 2 components that will break on an e-bike (from the e-drive, commonly it is actually the chain/derailleur part that breaks). Motor controller and of course your cables/connections. Both are easy to fix, they take very little skill and won't cost much (certainly not more than replacing your chain/derailleur). There is pretty much no need for specialized tools (maybe some torx-bits depending on your model, but that is not more special than a chain-breaker). Longevity and ability to repair is really not a concern. Efficiency is (though it would be really interesting to see a comparison to a bike that has been used for a while and including recuperation).

@@etherealicer If efficiency is important, this dual motor is far away from the solution with over 40% power loss. A normal chain drive bike that has been beat to hell would never lose more than a few percent of efficiency.

No it won't. You first...lol.

If you had said 'some bikes', you could be correct. Bikes in general? Not a chance. This is a solution looking for a problem. Bicycles when invented and bicycles in 2022, still the most efficient mode of human powered transportation. Why throw that efficiency out the window? This will be super duper niche, and ultimately will be a complete failure.

@@joeshmoe7967 the way most people ride it it is quite inefficient, most average people pedal 200W and have the middrives in turbo, and Bosch CX peak at around 700-750W infact, not the "250W" European limit that means you got 200W pedal power and 700W assistance so 900W total, if you went to this mode it would be like 820W (200W effort but 40% loss, 120W) and the 700W your consumption wouldn't increase as the power is limited, still a marginal difference in the end. not only that's great but you'll have the ability to fine-tune the feeling of the pedals, your preferred cadence etc in software as you can vary how much power the pedals generate basically, and you've got none of the issues a normal drivetrain would/could have (derailleur adjustment, chain cleaning, chain skipping, or just no changing gears in general) it's like having a cvt without a cvt.

@@BH4x0r Yeah and CVTs were a failure too.

@@theyeetus1428 in cars, yes, on ebikes it's just too expensive in cars the problem is that people want to hear shifting noises, which is retarded in my opinion, why would you pick something less efficient? but whatever since i've got a bbshd on my ebike i haven't ever shifted as it has a great rpm and power range, it can climb hills and reach 40km/h in gear 3/7 (it's limited to 25km/h cuz of Europe trash rules but it can), but since it's power limited (battery current limit) rather than increasing in power as it goes faster (motor current limit) it's perfect, sort of, more torque and power wouldn't hurt but it's fine at 1500W electric cars (no shifting) and no-shift ebikes (enough power or cvt) are the best either way. I mean nobody should want to really slow down cuz of a normal uphill, it makes the ride even more boring

“E-bikes” aka electric bikes already exist. That’s a motor and battery + chain and pedals. These bikes are technically also electric driven but the name is taken so… lol. Plus “digital drive” is a good name for it given the chains and gears that normally drive a bike are gone and “digitized” in a sense.

Well said! Finally, someone with an active brain.

Only problem you need to use the energy at somepoint if you generate all the time. Like you need to recharge an e-bike you drain all the time. You also could partially short circuit the motor and dicipate the effort in heat. But that's kind of a waste. Also if everybody drives a view watt extra a day for 30min this adds up to an significant amount of power over a year.

You mean, like gears on a normal chaindriven bike? You've literally described exactly what gears do. You can't have the energy input constantly greater than the energy output (ignoring drivetrain efficiency).. Even if you had super capacitors or a battery to store additional energy, these would eventually reach a state of maximum charge and you'd be back at square one. The use case you've described is already achievable with gearing and the addition of a dynamo light or dragging the brakes.

@@MrHaggyy i dont think you can short circuit the motor very long. the energy will go towards heating up the wires. you can short the motor on a resistor though.

@@MrHaggyy i dont's think spending energy is a problem at all. when your battery is full it will just stop charging, and your generator will do nothing. and i seriously doubt there will be a case of "too much energy" ever.

the biggest problem with independent of your feet controls for speed is, weel, it's independence. you'll need a gas crank on your handlebars and to relearn hardwired "pushing pedals make you go brr". which could take a lot of fun out of the cycling experience.

Maybe there are more advantages: less need for rare earths and less weight (which also results in greater battery life). The downside, is you need to convert the DC battery to an AC current and a more electronically complex control system of the motor torque and velocity.

@@Sergio_Loureiro My design just uses a sensorless BLDC motor for prop and one for generator. I'm not concerned about rare earth magnets. This is just a hobby project for my own use. 3 ph AC is automatically created in the generator but then is rectified to DC for battery charging and the prop motor driver. A pretty simple design. :) Prop motor speed is simple in software. No need for constant torque control in such a system.

But efficiency. wayyyy to poor.

Dirty chain has about 90% efficiency so right, drivetrain like in the video is not worth it at all.

You have your body weight and your payload. Couple of kgs won't matter for many people, unless you want to do a race.

Bravo

70% is not half of 90%, this statement alone should be reason enough to not take you seriously. The rest is also just guesses, not even educated ones. I’m so tired of people playing experts on things they have watched a single KZfaq video on.

@@foximacentauri7891 so nice to be fast checked. If have taken my numbers out of my old electronics reference book. Please share YOUR sources and explain how a bicycle chain manages 30% energy loss. Then we can see who can be taken seriously.

The moment there is a battery and an electric motor on a bike, there is no technical reason for it not to be capable of "driving on its own". It is only a legal thing that the motor stops operating when you stop pedaling. This is true for all e-bikes. So while a motor only driving the bike without added mechanical input from the user (using electrical input instead) may be seem different, it actually really isnt. And because the motor does a large part of the work in the first place on e-cargo-bikes, it also is shockingly unimportant how much input energy the human actually provides.

You assumed there is a battery. Could be a capacitor bank.

Good idea. This is how the Tesla Semi works. Rear motor optimised for 60mph, front two motors are mechanically disengaged except for acceleration and regen braking (and maybe counter jack knifing).

that is a very bas idea. 50% efficiency there is no point at all that this thing exist. take a chain or electric motor, but this thing between the 2.

ebikes are banned because the battery can allow the bikes to move faster than a normal riders speed. US law regulate then to under 25 mph unassisted but people alter them , thus the ban.

@@danc2014 If they would be similar strict about cars who legally are capable of highway speeds in inner city...

For a regular bike, a mechanical electrically assisted drivetrains makes more sense. But for e-cargo-bikes, this type of drivetrain can be much better than anything chain based.

​@@danc2014: I don't know where you're living, but Michigan allows E-bikes on its trails, for the most part. The way the statutes are written is that an E-bike is restricted in top speed, but for some reason, a human-powered bike isn't? I can get a 26" 21-speed MTB up to 45 mph on flat land, with slight variations on pavement. Which, by the way, is the actual speed limit on some roads around my area. Point is, I see no point to restricting E-bikes according to motor rating or top speed, when anything below a 11.1 kw power output rating is not allowed on interstate highways and freeways only (i.e., limited-acess highways). And Interestingly enough, the only type of vehicle whatsoever that's rated at some kind of class are commercial vehicles, based on GVW; number of passengers that can be carried; and number of axles. Not even cars & trucks are regulated by motor size or horsepower, which discriminates against E-bikes, given that speed limits exist for a reason, and most E-bikes have speedometers. So my question is, why not just simply say, "E-bikes are e-bikes, no matter what the power output is, and the only obligation an e-bike rider has is to adhere to the speed limit of whatever road they're on, and that they are prohibited from all limited-access highways"? The rules for E-bikes just seem arbitrary and discriminatory, is all I am saying.

They also have lower resistance then a battery. So you will see a gain in efficiency.

@@MrHaggyy no, the maximum power transferred is when the load resistance matches the internal resistance, so this would mean max power transfer at a lower load, lower efficiemcy for same load

"super capacitors as they are lighter" If one compares the amount of power per gram of the two storage solutions (batteries vs super caps), super caps weigh much much more than a battery with comparable energy capacity. Super capacitors have miniscule power storage compared with batteries. Tom Stanton made a video showing a super cap powered ebike *(Super Capacitor Bike).* It was pretty terrible. I watched a bit of the video just now (while finding the title) and I see Tom had also built the motor. It's possible with better components a super cap bike would perform better than the one shown by Tom but I doubt it would work well. If you're going to the trouble of adding a motor and generator to a bike, you'd probably want to use real batteries to maximize the benefits of using an electric drive.

​@@locomotive9000This kinda doesn't work when you have a non-linear power supply sitting between the source and load.

The hall effect, in combination with a supercapacitor, can bring up the efficiency of an electric drivetrain to about 80%. It's not as good as a chain, but most people care about getting to the place that they're going instead of having peak efficiency.