Are Mirror Matches Lame?

Рет қаралды 13,359

Күн бұрын

mirror mirror on the wall
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EVO tournament footage is from the EVO Events KZfaq channel:
/ @evoevents
Kakyoin vs Kakyoin footage taken from Acute Angle:
www.fightcade.com/id/Acute_An...
Time Stamps:
0:00 Opening + The EVO 2023 Incident
1:35 Are All Mirror Matches Even?
4:15 Why Mirror Matches Rock
6:13 Why Mirror Matches Suck
8:25 Audience Thoughts + Outro

Пікірлер: 161

@JustTryHard_Juth Ай бұрын

Kyanta's Kinoko mirror match is one of my favorite(and funniest) mirror matches in any game. Kinoko's single most important tool is the mushroom that spawns on the floor. Kinoko has to dig and pick the mushroom for damage and meter. But in the mirror match, both Kinokos share the same mushroom, and has to scramble around the stage for the mushroom, making the already important shroom management a bigger part of a game than ever.

@HellecticMojo Ай бұрын

the dev was both evil and insane for only allowing 1 mushroom spawn

@cyberhexmaniac Ай бұрын

I do think part of what makes the EVO grands examples feel a lot worse isn't just that it's a mirror, it's that in order for it to get to that point, you'll already have had to have seen that character in about half of the sets in the top 6/8, if not more. For a top 8 for example, best case scenario would be only two instances of a character, both in opposite winners semis (two sets total), then mirror in winners finals, then they're in losers finals and make it back to grands for 5/10 (6/11 if there's a reset and you want to be pedantic) sets. Of course, that's not even counting the possibility that there was a 3rd player of that character who just didn't make it as far, causing that count to go even higher! Seeing this happen over and over in various games across a full weekend of streams, and... yeah, most people will eventually get fed up with one of those characters. I don't think there's anything wrong with watching a lot of mirrors in a vacuum, though it depends on the character for sure. Big damage characters can make for really high-octane and exciting sets, but a lot of slower or more gimmicky characters can make the game a clusterfuck.

@ViApp0 Ай бұрын

Yeah while it could be fun when you play mirror matches, it's definitely bad for the viewers, especially those with only a passing interest in the game.

@SimoneBellomonte 9 күн бұрын

Pfp (Profile picture) and / or Banner Sauce (Source [Artist])? 🗿

@HellecticMojo Ай бұрын

It's usually that non shoto characters really don't have good tools to fight their own kit. Zoners almost never get anti zoning in their kit besides "zone harder," grapplers almost never get keepaway tools or escape tools, mix heavy characters almost never get reversals to fight their own mix.

@LloydTheZephyrian Ай бұрын

Well, with grapplers, the way it devolves into degeneracy is at least funny.

@ActionCow69 Ай бұрын

@@LloydTheZephyrian potemkin mirrors are fucking hilarious

@HellecticMojo Ай бұрын

@@ActionCow69 Megafist and hammerfall truly saves that mirror. Speaking of GG, Faust mirror is also one of few exceptions where character actually has good answers to his own kit, so his mirrors are less obnoxious too.

@wannabecinnabon Ай бұрын

sometimes the issue is that a character is *too* good at dealing with their own tools, though, and so instead of a stomp the matchup becomes either insanely swingy or insanely lame a really good example of this imo is the nu-13 ditto in bbcf. nu is a dedicated zoner who, while not exactly being the strongest character in general, has a lot of traits that make her extremely good at fighting other zoners--her projectiles are incredibly fast in both startup and travel time and can destroy other projectiles during their first few active frames, making her pretty much always win direct attempts to trade fireballs. she also has excellent mobility both from just really good run speed and her dash cancels that basically zip her from one side of the screen to the other in an instant. lastly, she has the single best dedicated antifireball super in the game, with it being completely invincible to projectiles for the whole animation, dealing 4k damage (avg bb char has 11k health, nu has 10k) on hit, and letting her run in from anywhere and run her mix on block. her whole signature gimmick is that she can string her projectiles together to form fullscreen pressure sequences, but a big issue she runs into is that her pressure always leaves gaps that opposing chars with good antizoning supers can break through easily and force her to either gamble or just end all her strings instantly. now normally she can still block if she decides to stop her string early but oh yeah nu's antizoning super also has her winning if it's blocked oopsie. this matchup completely shuts down once either/both players get their hands on 50 meter, because there's just no favorable situation to be made from actually using your projectiles lmfao even before then, nu's ability to threaten the whole screen in no time flat makes one of her most important tools in both her zoning and her pressure insanely hard to actually use because like, it's slow startup low recovery type of move but it just gets bulldozed by the other player hitting 5d lmao. and without being able to really use that move nu's existing issues with struggling to take back life leads just get exasperated. while nu is really good at winning zoner wars she is NOT well suited for actually getting in, ESPECIALLY if she can't get a lumi set did i mention the fact that her main projectiles beat other projectiles, albeit only early on? yeah that means that oftentimes if two nus are far away, the one who shoots SECOND will win which is just like damn.....that's fucked up....really do just be the omega lame matchup

@arachnofiend2859 Ай бұрын

Seeing Zato players talk about how much they hate the mirror and they're just describing what it feels like to play against Zato was always funny. Like at least in the Pot Mirror there is some clown shit happening that doesn't occur in any other matchup

@emberthefox4951 Ай бұрын

The downside of potential demoralization after being beat with your own character is actually a moot point for me. In fact, I find that definitive decision of who's the better player to be the biggest appeal of a mirror. No gimmicks, no tricks, no matchup shenanigans, just who plays better. If I lost, I'm not upset since I know that my own skill is to blame. It just motivates me to practice more. If I won, I'm ecstatic since I just proved my worth as a player.

@SimoneBellomonte 9 күн бұрын

Yeah exactly thats not even a downside of the mirror its just a players mindset, if u get depressed when losing the mirror then what happens when u lose a like 6-4 or even 7-3 matchup lmao. 💀

@FrungusMcChridle Ай бұрын

The one very entertaining mirror match i can think of is Junpei v Junpei. Not only because of victory cry but because the metal bat clank is the equivalent of the metal pipe sfx

@firetarrasque4667 Ай бұрын

Brb, looking up Junpei mirrors

@firetarrasque4667 27 күн бұрын

Okay yeah this is funny

@DevManner Ай бұрын

The last point you made is very important. How frequently a mirror match happens because of a character or team's relevance in the meta heavily influences how I feel about watching them. Seeing five or more of the same character in a top 8 can be a bit discouraging, however I also think it depends on the character. Side Note: Faust vs Faust is one I find enjoyable, it's just a slot machine fight + it's very chaotic sometimes

@allknighter5791 Ай бұрын

I think that mirror matches are a sign of good character design. If a mirror match is interesting to watch then that means that more than likely it’s because the character has more than a few game plans that make it interesting to watch.

@onlyonehere555 Ай бұрын

I fall into the "depends on the character" category, I also think top-tier fatigue plays a role in the subject as well. Seeing a character all the time gets tiring after a while, seeing both players on a character you're already sick of is painful

@Grape_Rush_Goat Ай бұрын

“Steve!” “Steve!” Makes me wanna leave!

@LoraLoibu Ай бұрын

@@Grape_Rush_Goat there's a reason why we like to see the funny DORIYAH man

@hoovybeast0594 Ай бұрын

I don't know if this a common fact or not but Ken vs Ken in third strike is actually 6-4 due to player 1 actually having more mix up potential that player 2 cannot replicate.

@ducklett01god Ай бұрын

How?

@Trails_in_the_Sky Ай бұрын

is that true even if player 2 gets on the left side of the screen?

@hoovybeast0594 Ай бұрын

@ducklett01god i don't know how but I remember seeing a video by Leon Massidy on the subject of mirrors and he mentions sf3 Ken as one of the greatest mirrors but it's flawed due to player 2 not capable of crossing up like player 1

@hoovybeast0594 Ай бұрын

@@Trails_in_the_Sky yeah i think so

@wannabecinnabon Ай бұрын

@@hoovybeast0594 he did very specifically say that it wasn't a 6-4 or anything like that but yeah, p1 could get a crossup after a super and a couple other things. that's hardly enough for a 5.5-4.5 though nvm a 6-4 also, it was theoryfighter, not leon massey. video is called "the perfect mirror match"

@Skuttie Ай бұрын

Me sowing (doing my BNBs on my favorite character): haha fuck yeah! Yes! Me reaping (getting hit by my favorite characters BNBs) : well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.

@yosha101 Ай бұрын

It's funny you mention it, but yep, grappler mirror matches are always strangely fun. I will die inside if, by some chance, I get a Faust mirror, lord save me, I want to leave immediately (and I don't cause I hate leaving a set undone and especially disconnecting) But the Potemkin Mirror? It just feels good strangely enough, I think it's thanks to the fact that, suddenly, he no longer has the slowest moves in the game nor does he seem as incapable of moving comparatively and this stretches across all grapplers. It's when all their downsides suddenly fall away and give way to a no holds barred brawl of BIG grabs and BIG buttons.

@mistermamamia Ай бұрын

I love playing mirror matches, because learning what my character can do from someone who uses entirely different methods and routes from me is a good learning exorcise! As for watching mirrors, on their face, especially at tournaments, you can't help but think to yourself "this is only happening because the game balance is wack", and regardless of how true it is, it's a sucky feeling. It's annoying to look at a game with so many characters like umvc3 and dbfz and see the same teams and think that it's just because this is the only thing that's viable. Everyone wants to see cool characters fight! When you get past that though, and get into seeing two highly skilled players play a straight faced match with no tricks the other can't account for, it's cool. I'll never be able to shake the idea of a mirror match grand finals being kinda lame, but after taking a second to recognize that I'm not here to watch cool characters fight and am here to see two awesome competitors go at it, things become fun again.

@nazukah2861 Ай бұрын

Another interesting mirror matchup is Snake in Smash Brawl who has a 60/40 matchup with himself due to the way ports work and process knockback for lower ports (Player 1) first, when one of his explosive explode while one of the Snakes grabs the other means the lower port player gets launched with knockback while the higher port only takes damage with 0 knockback

@arw000 Ай бұрын

I think that when people say that mirrors are uneven what they mean to say is that a character can't deal with their own tools very well or they can deal with their own tools so well as to invalidate their own offense. In these cases the mirror is still technically 5:5 but incredibly swingy because as soon as one player has the advantage it becomes very difficult to deal with it.

@sword9537 Ай бұрын

oh hell yes got this notif RIGHT as i was rewatching low tiers 2 This is Smash slop, but I was always fond of the Ike ditto in just about any game it’s played. It’s really funny how Ike specifically has all of the tools to capitalize on his own biggest weaknesses. Especially edgeguarding, cus Ike has like 4 braindead easy Aether edgeguards.

@pachicore Ай бұрын

The 6-4 mirrors usually happen because there's a weird quirk which would give player 1 or 2 an advantage. Pretty sure ken in es can only crossup with jump roundhouse from a specific side and distance as player 1 or something

@jerry3115 Ай бұрын

in the case of the evos, it feels like the issue is less with mirrors and more with the saturation of the characters. All the characters being played in grand finals mirrors are top tiers that fans of the game will have no doubt seen a billion million times, and I'd imagine people were hoping for something new.

@BwdYeti Ай бұрын

Another point to consider, especially in top8 and grand finals mirror matches, is what it can indicate about the balance of the game. Seeing the same character or small set of characters over and over again can speak to top tiers who are very privileged compared to the rest of the cast and low tiers that may be completely unviable. This is correlation more than causation, but it still gives a negative impression

@yugimumoto1 Ай бұрын

one of my favorite mirror matches is Axl in guilty gear. because he works in such a specific range and has deadzones on his attacks the match ends up feeling very strange as you are both trying to keep each other out but needing each other to be closer to do much of anything.

@SuperNimi35 Ай бұрын

+R is a fascinating game with a variety of mirror matches that kick ass and a variety of mirror matches that are unimaginably miserable. the best example is probably pot vs pot. the character is equipped with one of the most powerful command grabs ever and a kit which does a splendid job of allowing him to keep landing said command grab and maintain momentum after it, which now results in a mirror which boils down to "the reason you lost that interaction was because you didn't do pot buster", which is frankly asinine on the other hand you have characters like sol and chipp whose mirrors usually bring out their best qualities, as well as featuring a lot of unique or cool interactions that wouldn't otherwise come into account

@reset6292 Ай бұрын

Wasnt there the Hokuto no Ken game which has a character (their grappler, big whoop) who has a lopsided matchup on himself because if you play him on P2 side you get an infinite you dont get if you play him on P1 side? (Iirc the bug is that playing on P2 side gives you 1 extra frame of hitstun and that makes the infinite practical on P2 but undoable in P1 or something) and considering how practical and essential infinites and ToDs are in HnK the 6:4/worse matchup isnt even a "haha nice!" piece of trivia like he is judged in tier list as being on P2 side always.

@Zerobasssoul Ай бұрын

Mirrors in the wild (I.E. randoms, causals, ranked) I find pretty enjoyable because its a more immediate analysis of character knowledge and skill.But, I will say newer fighting games have the benefit of more diverse playstyles due to naturally larger playerbases in addition to the fact that older FGs are pretty much set in their meta and have most of their tech and mechanics figured out for years now on top of the surface factors of mirrors that you mentioned like same animations, voicelines, supers, etc. That being the way I see uhhhh not a fan of watchinh mirrors in a tournament environment personally.

@g0ddish434 Ай бұрын

From how I think about it, Mirror Matches are boring if the character is boring. I come to terms that people want to win and by default are willing to play characters who are not only consistent but also easy. This is why I found myself sleeping through 2023 EVO in Tekken 7 as a result of my disliking Kunimitsu. She's a simple character that relies on 2 strings and D/B+3 and while she does have other things to make her interesting. The fact that she's still very overtuned and also brain-dead made me turn away from the screen. This is the exact opposite when it comes to SF6, because my favorite character to watch is undoubtedly JP. He's a trapper-like character that requires you to break the game in and out to find the most damaging setups or a good read on your opponent to make sure they will never approach you. Everyone will say that he's overtuned, but because of his design, it benefits how cool he is. Two players are just trying to show off who has the most damaging combo and who has been into the lab the most. It gives a good insight on how versatile the character is even if you know nothing about the character and what they are capable of. However it is just my own two cents.

@Hecatom Ай бұрын

Tager mirror matches on Blazblue are hilarious, since the 1st one to het magnetized gets an invul "forward" dash.

@ObsessiveBadguy Ай бұрын

Faust mirrors in practically any Guilty Gear game is a hilarious match full of fine ass madness, always fun

@JJSquirtle Ай бұрын

Inside you are two wolves: One cites the Melee fox mirror as an example of pure hype in the mirror. The other stares at Evo 2018's Smash WiiU finals where Lima and Captain Zack spent legitimately two minutes holding down the B button at the start of the second round.

@__-be1gk Ай бұрын

Everyone is going to hate seeing a bunch of people enter a high profile tournament all playing the same character and playing against each other on that character because it means that character is overpowered. People usually don't care about mirror matches otherwise.

@shlrup6154 Ай бұрын

i enjoy mirrors, or at least the one i have the most experience with. nagoriyuki in guilty gear strive not only is he incredibly expressive as a baseline, but his gameplan changes to a wild degree depending on the state of the match and more importantly, his blood gauge a nago is going to play completely differently at 2 bars than none and having that shift in playstyle happen between both players is an amazingly fun dynamic to witness and play in.

@LoraLoibu Ай бұрын

0 blood nago is a mixup machine, *DO NOT PRESS BUTTONS ON ROUND START* BL3 nago is basically a zoner because his 5H and 2H are the size of fucking texas

@strikermodel Ай бұрын

A mirror match by itself is not an issue and can be extremely enjoyable even. For example, watching 2 potemkin eat glue together is extremely entertaining. As a spectator for a tournament, it's all tied to amount of a character in the bracket. If most of the bracket is the same character or character team, it becomes boring. The only thing that aleviates it is if a character can have multiple wildly different playstyles, and getting to see 2 entirely different styles clash. The absolute best is when it's a mirror match with a bottom tier character nobody plays in bracket. No matter who wins, you're getting the rare chance to watch a mirror of a character at the highest level of play like this.

@iliakatster Ай бұрын

Grapper is great bc you're always in a position of great advantage and disadvantage, and none of your tools work the way they're supposed to, so it just becomes hilarious degeneracy, which is what all us filthy grappler mains want

@sapphoai821 Ай бұрын

Thanks

@natethebad Ай бұрын

I originally put "no strong feelings" on the poll, but I have realized that my thoughts are more complex. I have no problem playing the mirror, even when my love of puppet characters and setplay-zoner hybrids can lead to some cursed games. I also really enjoy watching mirror matches between good players in the games that I have knowledge about and experience with. However, in games that I do not play and don't understand, mirror matches really bother me. Maybe it is something to do with the fact that when I know a game, I am noticing more of the little things happening in the match, and am interested in seeing how each player pilots their character. Maybe it has to do with me selfishly wanting more variety when I am just a tourist watching an unfamiliar game's top 8. Whatever it is, I do feel like I am being unfair to games that I don't know (like Marvel 3) or don't enjoy (like Tekken).

@antant6217 12 күн бұрын

the axl mirror in strive is stupid fun

@bekimmehmedi2905 Ай бұрын

Tbh Mirror Matches are an interesting ride for me as its the obly time youll see me get upset. Im usually a docile player whos bug on compliments and just hacing fun. But i take the mirro match extremely personally 😂😂😂

@dietrichrache1975 14 күн бұрын

I appreciate the Falsebound Kingdom music.

@Eggb0i Ай бұрын

I play zato1 in guilty gear strive when I get a mirror match I like analyzing what my opponent does right and wrong so I can adapt my playstyle to be better especially with the combos I can learn and do

@morgboat744 Ай бұрын

the only real ‘main’ i’ve had in a fighting game is Axl in Strive so far and honestly i really enjoy the mirror. having my one brain cell put up against someone with the same kit is enjoyable and weirdly wholesome. but as a spectator i imagine it leaves much to be desired lol

@esseubot Ай бұрын

I think people mostly complaing about mirror matches when it shows that a certain character is a "Must have" for competitive success.

@Cassapphic Ай бұрын

For me at least as a player I really enjoy mirrors, mirror matches like baiken in strive and grimnir in granblue have a lot of awkward or fun interactions that can come about from how the character fights themselves that make them feel very fun, and its way harder to get tilted when everything that happens to me I could do back, while I get insight into the mind of someone else given the same puzzle to solve that I was.

@LoraLoibu Ай бұрын

Baiken simultaneously has the best safejumps in the game and a tool to deny those safejumps so i can see how it gets funny

@S_Boomer98 Ай бұрын

Overall, I love mirror matches. I enjoy being able to experience how my opponent uses my character and what I could possibly learn from that. Even if I come out as the ultimate victor, there is always something to take away at the end, and I just appreciate that. Specific mirrors that I find are most interesting to watch are definitely Asuka in Guilty Gear Strive or basically anyone in Touhou Hisoutensoku, since they now have spellcards to consider.

@krausercruz2780 Ай бұрын

FOr me Mirror matches only suck if thats the ONLY thing that you see, like in the examples you mention. I like it for the same reasons you mention, specially when a character can be used in different ways. Like back in Smash Brawl me and a friend were pretty good with Link and Snake, Our Links were pretty similar and our swords would clash often making these exiting moments of miltiple swords clashes making metallic sounds. Even then he was more keen on the Bow and Boomerang while I used Bombs exclusively. For Snake he was more of a zoner with Nikita, Mortars and C4 to keep me at bay, while I was what i always describe as a "Suicidal Snake", throwing Grenades and C4 at odd angles while approaching for aggressive melee combos. And I would gladly explode myself with them if it means it hit him as well. Its fun to watch how players use the same mechanics in different ways.

@LoraLoibu Ай бұрын

Same characters, different playstyles!

@Robin_Robout Ай бұрын

I tend to not like mirror matches cause I just like watching two different tool sets interact, but isn't like I hate them when they come up. It's not the player's fault if certain dominant options end up overrepresented at events.

@Kuroig53 Ай бұрын

Personally, as someone who is pretty casual to fighting games, I usually like mirror matches. For one, is nice to see how someone who has similar tastes in characters goes about it, and even when I lose, is still nice to know I still have more to learn, and that the loss was on me more than anything. Also is specially nice when ya do it against already hype or chaotic, characters, like I enjoy Faust, Order Sol, and Potemkin mirrors for example In the other hand, yeah I get that in examples of team games specially, same visuals and tools for both characters can get a bit tiring to watch. Even more so in charactera that play more defensively, obviously nothing wrong with more defensive playstyles, but sometimes is a bit too much when is something both characters with same tools do. Overall I like mirrors tho lol

@fadingluckflow3072 Ай бұрын

mirror matches are fine unless they are both projectile zoners

@PkGroundOmega Ай бұрын

Honestly, for me it matters how frequently you get a mirror match. If you get it rarely,then it feels like an fair challenge to test your knowledge and skill at the character you play with. If you get it frequently on the other hand,it feels boring because you are not able to use your strong points at other certain chars that are countered by you,and you are not able to learn from your own weaknesses against other characters.

@LoraLoibu Ай бұрын

I only find mirrors every once in a while so they're very fun for me

@Grape_Rush_Goat Ай бұрын

It’s so funny to me how these anime games come out as clearly unbalanced and wacky, indulging more into being stupid fun rather than serious and competitively viable, yet fighting game players will pick it up and try to take it seriously, then the developers try to balance out the goofy fun side with the serious side, which never works. Games should just fully embrace one of the sides rather than try to do both and fail at both. I appreciate games releasing that actually do this, like the upcoming HXH team fighter which, imo, doesn’t even try to be taken as a serious fighter, and completely focuses on being a fun and silly fighting game as a passion project for the developers.

@Hecatom Ай бұрын

I actually like playing mirror matches. Seeing them depends, if many matches of the tournament involve the same mirror match or seeing the same few chars I understand why it can feel tedious.

@boringinu2077 Ай бұрын

depend on character, i fine with almost character i played for the most time i develop my own set up and i confident to win, but in some character i played i can't handle my own thing, like xrd ram.

@spenser4885 Ай бұрын

watching mirrors is one thing but the part of playing mirrors i hate the most is the lack of a lot of nuance in scramble situatuations. in an asymetric mu scrambles feel a lot more thoughtful, small differences in range have a big difference in what, if, and when you should press. in a mirror your effective range is always the same, your buttons always hit exactly as far as eachother exactly as fast. also for a specific funny example, the c-nero mirror is its own special flavor of hell on earth lol. nero's a big character with disgusting setplay, slow movement, and mediocre defense. one of his strongest tools, ex crows, summons a cloud of crows that after a short delay fire a bunch of projectiles down at a 45 degree angle. crows has very short recovery (like less than 20f) so nero is fully actionable before the crows even start hitting (around 45f startup). usually this is just a very strong pressure tool, bc when you use this in neutral your opponent can usually manuever around it fairly well by dashing through it on reaction to the flash. c-nero doesnt have a forward dash, he has a slow, mostly invincible but punishable on reaction teleport dash. in the mirror, if one c-nero uses ex crows in neutral your best option is to just ex crows in response and force both of you to block for a few seconds. real riviting gameplay lmao

@ibidysphoriaqueen Ай бұрын

nothing is more fun than a faust mirror

@steeveedragoon Ай бұрын

My viewpoints on mirror matches have been largely formed by the yugioh trading card game, but I'd say that there's likely many similarities. First things first, it depends on the mirror. If we're talking about the ishizu Tear mirror, then that's one of the best mirrors in the game, if not the best mirror in the game where the better of the two players is all but guaranteed to win. On the other hand, the Psy-frame mirror is likely the most miserable mirror match in the game where the deck is incapable of doing anything if the opponent does nothing, and the two people playing the deck will never do anything because doing so would enable the opponent to do stuff. I feel like someone may mention dark world. That mirror at one time was horrible, but the deck doesn't really play any cards that allow for the opponent to discard anymore.

@igkewg Ай бұрын

One thing I want to point out is that knowledge about your character doesn't always translate into your mirror matchup performance (and/or knowledge). For simple characters, the matchup depends more on your fighting game fundamentals, and for a more gimmicky character, you have to know some wacky interaction in that specific mirror. Mirror matches also tend to be very snowbally, once you get into the advantageous situation. This reminds me a lot when I'm playing card games where some deck when playing mirrored requires you to change your whole game plan and how you play the game. (Control warrior mirror in hearthstone, control or combo mirror in mtg.

@kylekiske_ Ай бұрын

actually the word "Boon" typically means a gift or good thing, the opposite of how you used it here.

@gamerkingmayathe064th5 Ай бұрын

I dont watch tournaments as much as i should so that probably plays into my love for mirrors, ESPECIALLY if its with characters whos players share braincells like Sol Badguy or most grapplers and ESPECIALLY if its with friends. Just being in a call making one move clash constantly is comedy fucking gold and i love it

@MrMisfortune Ай бұрын

8:56 I'm Famous! I also think 4:50 is a great example of why SF6 is so fuckin' good, even when you have an identical moveset to the other guy, how you manage your drive gauge and the varied offense it provides puts emphasis on character expression which I'll always welcome more of

@Dabear3234 Ай бұрын

my issue with mirror matches is when i fall for one of my own tricks i don't go on tilt i fall the fudge over

@totallyaploy1824 Ай бұрын

As I said in the poll, mirrors are boring for me. Seeing the back and forth between two characters with different tools is what makes these games fun for me, so when that's changed to "who can use the same tools better?" I lose a lot of interest.

@ego2631 Ай бұрын

Seeing the grappler comments at the end with Iron Tager at the top gave me the answer we were looking for. Seeing a ditto match of characters who are conventionally top tier isn't interesting. Seeing a ditto match of low tier characters is incredible. Not a day goes by where I don't appreciate the Terumi ditto.

@messymop9772 Ай бұрын

I really want someone to go whoops all grapplers with a fighting game and see what happens

@InTheKitchenWristStirFry Ай бұрын

This isn't a fighting game, but i figured i'd mention AW(a tactical turn base game) where every character has different stats it gives to its army. Theres a character who gives 20%+ defense but deals 20% less damage which makes him dogshet to fight against mirror wise Lol. Imagine an unfun character to watch and now extend the hp bars

@dabluepittoo-aqua4213 Ай бұрын

For me I think Mirror Matches are fine in moderation. While they do have strengths, the weaknesses make it so that if there's too many Mirror Matches it becomes exhausting. As for if Mirror Matches are truly 5-5, I'd say they are as long as both players have the exact same options (like if they're both able to choose all of a character's super then that's a 5-5). Also things like Port Priority shouldn't exist for a 5-5 matchup to be possible.

@nut1629 5 күн бұрын

I find mirrors great as both characters can play at their best range and situations

@TKVirusman Ай бұрын

Yes. Next video please. ❤

@RealBigMitch Ай бұрын

Its the 2nd thing

@SLAMTUCKER Ай бұрын

I really don't like mirror matches because I guess I always use asymmetry to my advantage. Even if a matchup is bad (but not hyper bad) there's always some kind of way to force a distinct advantage over your opponent. You always have a gameplan that is something the other character can't trivialize or match. But in a mirror matchup that doesn't exist and I guess it just isn't how my brain works cuz I've never liked them or done well with them.

@swan9506 Ай бұрын

The mirrors that aren't 5-5 are 4-4 when they're terrible and can go up to 7-7 when it's hot jazz

@tubenewsintern6446 Ай бұрын

I think the negativity towards mirrors only really applies towards high-level gameplay. A mirror in GF could say something about how healthy the balance of a game is, and the meta at that level is often either solved or both finalists have the same strings and gameplans

@bennetthobbitt9847 18 күн бұрын

5:59 exactly. I play Strive, so I often find myself frustrated at whatever bullshit my opponents character can do, HOWEVER. In a mirror match? that's MY bullshit, I physically cannot get angry because I know i do that shit to people and it probably gets THEM tilted. so mirrors are fun :D

@zhaoyun255 Ай бұрын

IDK, two gorillas Slayers trying to 6P each other is hilarious.

@juice17776 Ай бұрын

I love playing the mirror, but I think in tournament and as a spectator, character diversity is a much more important factor. If ~50% of the matches are the mirror, that gets boring quick. Also some characters that don’t have the tools to deal with their own gimmicks can get rough. Characters with all offence no defence probably get opened up quick and die fast, with the other way around being a snorefest.

@juice17776 Ай бұрын

The Bridget mirror is great, she can play offence or defence so either player has a lot of agency and it makes for some fun interactions.

@joshnoritake3167 Ай бұрын

Mirror matches are the true trial by fire, either you take it on the chin and understand your character better, or you rage and mald, with no real excuse for losing.

@bulb9970 Ай бұрын

I love playing mirrors, it’s like a perfectly even challenge to see who “deserves to main the character”. But I find watching mirrors super boring, I want to see variety.

@Yousef77077 Ай бұрын

Mirror matches are freakin weird. They offer insight into the balance and history of a game, but they have some incredibly strange oddities exclusive to them and them alone that you will never ever see outside of them. Multiple super turbo mirror matches expose how the SF2 characters play terribly against themselves, either not being able to counter their own BS or not being able to break through it and for some, this only happens ONLY in mirror matches and no other matchups. It shows a strange and interesting insight and for that I can’t fully dismiss them because they’re so f*cling weird goddamn.

@cringelord8511 Ай бұрын

Generally, I really like mirrors, but they're at they're best for me when the character in question has a lot of fun and stupid tools. I love seeing players do the exact same thing at the exact same time, it kills me every time.

@giantdinoboy8264 Ай бұрын

Venom vs Venom in Guilty Gear is 10-0 because his offense, midrange offense, and oki is very strong but he has no reversal. Whoever wins neutral can lock the opponent behind a shit ton of plus frames. Venom's Dark Angle Super has advantage in seconds not frames and chip damage equivalent to a basic combo.

@TheReZisTLust Ай бұрын

I feel like mirror matches are fun cause it shows who watches youtube videos to fight and who just plays

@bigredradish Ай бұрын

my opinion (and it is JUST THAT) is that spectators hate mirror matches at big events because they want a cool story. they want to see the heroic mid tier or the wildcard technical character win it all against the big bad top tier because it's cool and hype. basically what I'm trying to say is people want these things booked like pro wrestling and they want the jobbers to win. which is TOTALLY FAIR but also not how playing games for a million dollars tends to work

@dercarrot991 9 күн бұрын

I just feel like mirrors hurt the “spirit” of the game a little. Part of what makes fighting games so interesting is seeing how different players use the tools they are given to deal with different tools another player is given. It’s like if you were told to build a house faster than your buddy but you only have a hammer and they only have a screwdriver. Seeing two different approaches to the same goal and seeing the responses each makes to each other is the fun to me. Plus it just feels wrong seeing two of one charecter. Many fighting games are built on good/cool/ fun character designs and aesthetics so seeing the same character to me feels boring

@Grape_Rush_Goat Ай бұрын

Ssbu is a good example of more or less entertaining mirrors. Also, various tournaments have had the same few characters dominate top 16 multiple times. Falcon dittos can be insane, or dittos of generally expressive and flexible characters (like Sora),…… on the other hand, I think I’d rather k*ll myself then See another Steve ditto in tournament, or in general

@billyboleson2830 Ай бұрын

Not everyone is gonna play the same character the same so that’s how I think mirror matchups can be judged

@arachnofiend2859 Ай бұрын

I don't mind mirror matches from a player perspective as long as they're relatively rare, but that factors into my decision to pick characters that aren't as commonly played. From a viewer's perspective, a GF Mirror can feel like an absolute condemnation of the game's balance. Zero May Cry is the worst of this of course, that mirror feels like you're just watching Dive Kick with extra steps.

@ironman1458 Ай бұрын

If you actually playing its usually fun, but there are some mirrors that are way too cringe. To watch can be more hit or miss but in general I like fighting mirror matches, shows who is better and also a great way to improve.

@Rukir Ай бұрын

🤓Ummm you said “boon” to mean a negative word but it actually means good or beneficial

@MrMixtape Ай бұрын

Oh wow that's embarrassing LOL In my defense it absolutely sounds like a word that should have a negative connotation.

@LloydTheZephyrian Ай бұрын

@@MrMixtape Bane is a good word for what you meant.

@InTheKitchenWristStirFry Ай бұрын

@@MrMixtape You're not the only person i've seen get Boon and Bane mixed up considering how they're exact opposite terms.

@user-fe2ne7qx9z Ай бұрын

I'm mostly neutral towards dittos, but the Melee Sheik ditto is genuinely one of the most obnoxious, degenerate matchups. Basically, Sheik can combo her grab into grab and she can do this enough times to kill the opposing Sheik.

@martin99110 Ай бұрын

If mirror matches are frequent, then that completely invalidates every other reason. people have busy lives, I’m a 32 year old man that works 50-60 hours a week. If I see just mirror matches, I just stop watching. Most people are not going to want to see 30 year old men just use two characters. This is why Third strike got so much hate on twitch. Who wants to see two characters over and over for 2 hours.

@LanceAxel Ай бұрын

Short answer: yes long answer: yeah

@someaccount5200 Ай бұрын

In smash ult, left facing cloud is not the same strength as right facing cloud cause of the hitboxes of the side smash

@xmansxtrachannel Ай бұрын

1:03 I am currently salivating as I believe this will be the only time Mortal Kombat will be mentioned on this channel

@mmohaupt Ай бұрын

This isn't really a problem with modern games but in older games the mirror can be very boring to watch or feel very cheap because the characters weren't designed for the mirror match so if someone can get a life lead they can just lame out the other

@W7RSON Ай бұрын

Are you the same MrMixtape as the one in JMCroft's tournaments?

@ToyotaKudoFan Ай бұрын

Mirror matches featuring commonly used top tiers is the most boring thing ever

@Chanse1989 Ай бұрын

Anytime someone uses the phrase, "i hate mirror matches," what they actually mean is, "I dont actually know my character."

@malcolmakaguzu4314 Ай бұрын

I dislike the video not because you didn't do a excellent video of this discussion but because of how much I hate mirror matches😂

@dingledonk8027 Ай бұрын

some mirrors are 6-6

@RiderOfPeppers Ай бұрын

remenber ragna versus ragna is like an 8-2 or someshit due to snowball

@King-ts4es Ай бұрын

I dont like mirror match because it holds no lore value, you have to say its non cannonalical or in the character's mind ti justify it, unless the story has parral universes then it sort sucks still as the victor is meaningless, the outcomes always the same

@leeash_ Ай бұрын

this is a weird ass take but I kind of respect it

@axeoseilez3207 Ай бұрын

I hate them with all my being just because you know your character doesnt mean fighting them is easy. Its awful boring and most of the time you gain nothing from it. Losing means you are inferior winning means nothing cause cool you beat a character you know the best. Its not fun to play its boring to watch and most of the time when its in tourneys its because its just pick a top tier to win.

@Dabear3234 Ай бұрын

Gief v Gief is the only true skill based mirror match

@InTheKitchenWristStirFry Ай бұрын

gief supremacy in the comments. Green Hand Trades

@liu3chan Ай бұрын

**This video was sponsored by LTG**

@KingRoni1222 Ай бұрын

Like Yu-Gi-Oh's many Tier 0 formats, it entirely depends on how cool the individual character's mirror match is - playing anything else besides the best? You get smoked. Playing the best against the best? Depends on how much skill expression is actually allowed in the matchup. Sadly, these are fighting games, not card games where you can choose to play different cards to counter the mirror match.

@LoraLoibu Ай бұрын

Instead of picking different cards, you have different *moves*