It's frustrating as casual player getting punished by the pros

"ah finally finished paining my basilisks, just in time to be shelved"

I haven't played 40k since the last edition, but in general it's always been the same, people play guard for the guardsmen, but the tanks are what make you compete. The main issue the guard have is that guardsmen are weak to bolters, which every second miniature in the game has

@@arbiters487 they are weak to everything.

@@arbiters487 its a str 4 ap 0 d1 gun line dude. You're literally just making basic saves 90% of the time

I was thinking 18 sentinels, but lots of russes certainly sounds sound

And tank commander

Yeah, Tank Commanders say 'hi'

@@scope40k tank commanders are the worst unit in the whole roster, just nothing is right on this unit

​@SteelStorm33 every winning guard list I've seen takes at least 2

@@SteelStorm33 I don't know, mate - the competition is tough, there's a lot of worthless datasheets at the moment. 🤣 Astra Militarum index is really stormy and chaotic, that's for sure. I mean, it's not too bad, and winrate is low but not awful - but there are also so many weird game design decisions.

@@superkamigoru you mean before or after the last update? It's not like they are useless, just totally overlooked in terms of balanced and thoughtful rules, much as like lots of other units in IG index.

Yea, so may units screwed by this changes. My favorite part about it is field ordnance. I think that even GW understand that with this model profile you can use only their inderect guns and doesn't even try to make them direct shooting platforms. I have lethal hits on my 4 big lascannon shot, but not against vehicles and monstrs. Great

math wise it doesnt matter if everyone gets it, russes and dorns are the best users anyways. so the difference is very slight

No, no, no, you just don't get it. Players, especially new ones, are too stupid to follow rules that aren't laid out as ABC 123. That's why we can only build units as the box presents it and play them in that way except in very rare exceptions, why we can't have points on a per weapon/upgrade basis, and most importantly why we can't have such confusing rules like "weapons below strength X have lethal vs models of toughness Y and reverse for stronger weapons against tougher units." You wouldn't want to confuse everyone, would you? We already have ~2000 uniquely named special rules, and that's as complicated as we can manage as players.

Why. This is a massive nerf and vast overcomplication to an already dogshit faction. No other faction has to deal with this lol.

Give hwy weapons lethals against vehicles and monsters, rapid, assault and pistol against infantry. BOOM, fixed.

Multiple rules and abilities are now broken/non-functional. Did anybody actually THINK about this before they rolled in the changes?

The funny thing is we seem to be doing fine competitively on the back of dorn, scions, and sentinels so they probably won't fix the rest.

My strategy is to get the models I like, paint them up, try my best and then complain loudly. Nothing changes, but I still have fun.

probably have large amount of tank inventory theyre trying to offload

I'm liking the Born Soldiers change to infantry.

@@Peter_Wendt Yeah it's a positive change but overall infantry heavy lists are much worse due to Reinforcements. Being better at killing elite infantry is a bonus, not something you can build a list around in 10th edition.. Though maybe with Ironstorm nerfs, we will see more elite infantry to lethally hit.

magic

Get this man a promotion, an office and another Rogal Dorn.

Share the list friend

What's the list? Always looking for ideas and things to try.

@Crunch2327 Combined Arms (2000 points) Astra Militarum Strike Force (2000 points) Combined Regiment CHARACTERS Commissar (30 points) • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon Death Korps Marshal (60 points) • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon Death Korps Marshal (60 points) • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon Lord Solar Leontus (125 points) • Warlord • 1x Conquest 1x Konstantin’s hooves 1x Sol’s Righteous Gaze Platoon Command Squad (60 points) • 1x Platoon Commander • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power fist • 2x Veteran Guardsman • 2x Close combat weapon 2x Lasgun 2x Laspistol 1x Master Vox 1x Medi-pack • 1x Veteran Heavy Weapons Team • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol 1x Mortar ‘Iron Hand’ Straken (55 points) • 1x Auto shotgun 1x Bionic arm with devil’s claw 1x Plasma pistol BATTLELINE Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 points) • 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol • 9x Jungle Fighter • 9x Close combat weapon 2x Flamer 7x Lasgun 1x Vox-caster Catachan Jungle Fighters (55 points) • 1x Jungle Fighter Sergeant • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol • 9x Jungle Fighter • 9x Close combat weapon 2x Flamer 7x Lasgun 1x Vox-caster Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) • 2x Death Korps Watchmaster • 2x Plasma pistol 2x Power weapon • 18x Death Korps Trooper • 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 2x Grenade launcher 12x Lasgun 2x Meltagun 2x Plasma gun Death Korps of Krieg (130 points) • 2x Death Korps Watchmaster • 2x Plasma pistol 2x Power weapon • 18x Death Korps Trooper • 18x Close combat weapon 1x Death Korps Medi-pack 2x Grenade launcher 12x Lasgun 2x Meltagun 2x Plasma gun Infantry Squad (60 points) • 1x Sergeant • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon • 7x Guardsman • 7x Close combat weapon 6x Lasgun 1x Meltagun 1x Vox-caster • 1x Heavy Weapons Team • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol 1x Mortar DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Chimera (70 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Chimera heavy bolter 1x Heavy bolter 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lasgun array Chimera (70 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Chimera heavy bolter 1x Heavy bolter 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lasgun array OTHER DATASHEETS Leman Russ Battle Tank (170 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 1x Leman Russ battle cannon 2x Plasma cannon Leman Russ Battle Tank (170 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 1x Leman Russ battle cannon 2x Plasma cannon Leman Russ Battle Tank (170 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 1x Leman Russ battle cannon 2x Plasma cannon Rogal Dorn Battle Tank (240 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Castigator gatling cannon 1x Co-axial autocannon 1x Heavy stubber 2x Heavy stubber 2x Multi-melta 1x Oppressor cannon Rogal Dorn Battle Tank (240 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Castigator gatling cannon 1x Co-axial autocannon 1x Heavy stubber 2x Heavy stubber 2x Multi-melta 1x Oppressor cannon Tempestus Scions (50 points) • 1x Tempestor • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power fist • 4x Tempestus Scion • 4x Close combat weapon 2x Hot-shot lasgun 1x Hot-shot volley gun 1x Plasma gun Exported with App Version: v1.17.0 (45), Data Version: v430

​@@TheBoggelnthanks

Armored Might has _a few_ use cases - it makes Hellblasters cry, for one. But yeah, it's usually very niche - most anti-tank does too much damage per shot for the -1 to matter.

Armoured might is great against things like haywire blasters or arc rifles. Haywire does 3 dev wounds on 4s, reducing the damage by 33% is fab.

@@blckdrgn813 they don't balance based on how you play but as the player base as a whole.

@@superkamigoru Nah I'm pretty sure GW keeps tabs on my specific playstyle.

​​@@blckdrgn813if they're watching your play style they're watching my purchases. Seems every time I buy something or finish painting something it gets nerfed, legendsed, discontinued, or made useless. I finally get two Basilisks and the points increase happened the next morning. I finally get Cyclopes and the OC rules changed in Pariah, I finish painting 6 Bullgryn and assemble 10 Kasrkin and the points went up. I had a panic attack when I woke up the morning after painting Leontus to see the most recent update.

artillery is far from being the best unit, never was. they got better for indirect fire because of the stupid super deadly and high density terrain game, where guard cant use their masses well.

its only not fun to play against because they made the whole game about hiding in terrain every turn. Instead the game needs less terrain and the overall power level of shooting needs to be toned down.

I never really got "not fun to play against" Nothing other than the Manticore was really all that deadly. Artillery was supplemental fire most times for comboing with other stratagems or for nerfs like with the Earthshaker.

@@oblivionfan345Tony Indirect isn't fun to play against and getting lethals for no trade off was too good. The movement debuff is horrible if your anti-tank was melee based. I used to play Stormlance SM and I'd lose almost all the time because of the Earthshaker type rules on Indirect.

That is legit the tournament meta now.

@@Wind-Whistler Worked out well for me! :D

mech guard was always good in 10th, now its the last resort

@@SteelStorm33 Not true. You need the guard on foot to take advantage of all those sweet lethal hits. It's just that mech guard does the same job, because chimeras have been great for many editions. Keep them in until the last minute...turn three...and then let loose on the objectives to bring the game home.

@@SteelStorm33 You can still run blobs of 20 Kriegers and kick arse. But the chimera option is so much less stressful and easier. It's not the last resort, it just makes sense. Fairplay to my fellow infantry players! No more free stuff...but then you were taking armour already, right?

👀

(Heart swells with Imperial Pride)

I like the way you think, captain. But how about we try it with six Manticores?

take a leman russ, manticores are very bad compared to them, their only benefit was firing indirect.

@@SteelStorm33 But SIX though. Six Leman Russes.

Leman Russes and Rogal Dorns will be even nastier but otherwise nothing else worth wasting 1 CP on except if you wanna just finish a model on 1 wound.

@@SZUPERhun Big squad of tempestus Scions after FRSR buff against elite units is probably the other one u would use

@@steelxspider5274 Those are mostly still just ap 1, any bonus ap doesn't work in overwatch.

@@SZUPERhun what about the 13 plasma gun shots? I particularly like the scions because full rerolls on objectives plus sustained so more likelihood of getting sixes.

@@SZUPERhun Scions with a command squad, if their target is kind enough to stand on an objective have full rerolls to hit, sustained and lethal. Overwatch with them slaps into infantry.

What dimensions are the rogals hull?

I would recommend basecoating the wheel-wells black before you put it together completely. Makes it easier to drybrush it metallic later on without any annoying hard-to-reach spots.

@@Peter_Wendt I decided to leave the tracks on the sprue for now, as soon as I started putting the first bit together I realized I would have problems.

Cruddace probably got stomped by unending swarm nids or a kroot army

Unending Swarm Gargoyles, I think.

"Go to ground" should be the dedicated anti-indirect strat, you could mitigate the opressive nature of ID with that, somewhat.

Thematically, reinforcements only come in deployment, or mid table if controlled.

I approve.

Don't worry once they run out of tanks to sell, they'll flip it to infantry meta.

@@justinmsc5 "Run out of tanks"? This is the Imperial Guard, son. We don't run out of tanks.

It's in the index errata.

I think the core indirect fire nerf was heavy handed but not an unreasonable attempt to fix it. (Compared to further points nerfs). That being said, our artillery’s points needed to come down further (much further maybe for manticores) to justify this heavy handed if an approach.

@@rileysmith7763 I guess I expect more from a multi-million $ company than an afternoon's effort that I can see holes through within 5 minutes of reading the changes. To understand more of my point of view check out the Praetor rule for an example.

I had the same issue. I also put a comment here because of it. I checked the Index, Core Rules Update, Balance Dataslate and the Pariah Nexus Tournament Companion FAQ and I can not find it

it still does

EXACTLY, he said "it now requires" meaning it hadn't before, which, is wrong

GW doesn't care. They insist you go buy tanks and sentinels right now.

Infantry got better with the rules changes too! Huge swaths of lasgun shots can actually drop targets now.

then fucking play infantry spam, just dont bring it to the absolute most competitive tournaments possible. Nothing in this balance change is PREVENTING you from playing what you want to play

@@aqz7603 This always happens lol, it's a circle. GW changes the rules/points > Complain about how they can't do X anymore> Switch to a new meta-ish list> Complain about winrate when they lose after they adjusted their army> GW changes the rules/points.

I want to play tank spam. I fact, I _already_ play tank spam. It's just that tank spam isn't very good and this dataslate does very little to improve it while hitting on the head a few of the tools it used to make up for its shortcomings (like returning Scions for secondaries).

Isn´t it straight forward? The Rapier now gets lethal hits against anything not Monster or Vehicle. Luckly it got the special rule that it gains lethal hits against anything if ordered so it can finaly profit of its rule.

@@hannespaulsen its not entirely reddundantanymoore, but thisdoesnt make it any good

@@SteelStorm33 Thats true but its not really bad just meh.

Well, yeah, but assuming a lasgun is generally equal to an AK in terms of range, it should be effective to roughly 400 inches. Tanks should have a movement of at least 30 inches a turn and bikes? 70 inches at least. Don't even get me started about fliers. All of the ranges are comically short in 40k.

@@Peter_Wendt How are you calculating that? It sounds like you're assuming the ground scale should be the same as the miniatures scale. If 40K did that, it would be pretty much unique. The *only* games I'm aware of where ground scale and minis scale are the same are pre-gunpowder and either fantasy skirmish games with max 12 figures per side, or 15mm or smaller historical. Anything more modern uses a compressed ground scale. Heavy Gear uses 1:87 scale miniatures, but the ground scale is 1 inch = 30 metres, which works out to around 1:1200. Gear Krieg uses the same 1:1200 ground scale with 1:100 miniatures. Stargrunt II is writeen for true 25mm minis, which are roughly 1:56 scale; that uses a ground scale of 1 inch = 10 m or roughly 1:400. Disposable Heroes uses 28mm minis, so around 1:50 scale. No specific ground scale is listed, but the useful effective range of a WW2 rifle is 30", so we can assume that to be about 300m which was the limit of effective fire over open sights, and this brings us back to the 1 inch is 10m scale. Micro-Armour uses 1:285 scale minis, and a ground scale of 1 inch = 100 yards. which works out to 1:3600 scale. The idea of the ground scale being compressed is *normal* in minis games, and that's not the problem I was describing. The problem I was describing arises when you start comparing ranges inside the rules. Last time I played, which admittedly was 3rd ed, 40K didn't specify a ground scale, but the maximum range of something like a lasgun was 24 inches. So we can assume that 24 inches is around 300m, because *that* is the maximum useful range of a longarm firing over open sights, and that limit arises from the physics of *aiming.* Switching from a bullet to a laser won't remove that problem. If 24" represents around 300m, the ground scale is around 1:500, and a 4-foot by 8-foot table is depicting an area of 600m by 1.2 km. Corner to corner is about 1.35km. And that means we can compare the ranges of everything else to the infantry weapons, and discover that 40K is not, in fact, very consistent internally, resulting in dumbass things like 200mm artilery pieces engaging targets all but inside their own blast radius...

@@davydatwood3158 That's exactly what I was doing, yeah. I am not that familiar with miniature games systems and their relative scale, I just want firearms to work roughly the way they would be expected to. I remember being pretty annoyed back in 3rd edition when a rules change dropped all the ranges, to the point where some units would be unable to take a single shot with their weapons before being charged. Literally some cavalry units could stop outside of pistol range, then charge next round and there was nothing you could do about it. Ridiculous. Anyway, your point about scale consistency is well-made. Thanks for explaining further.

@@Peter_Wendt One of the things I like about Stargrunt II is that the ranges are based on the unit's quality. The theory is that even with the compressed ground scale, the bullet out of the infantry rifle is going to travel the entire board and more - but aiming under stress is *hard*. So the range increments reflect how good the unit is at figuring out where the target *is*, not the balistic performance of the weapon. Most units will be able to fire to at least 3 times their range increment, with increasing penalties. A fresh-out-of-basic unit has a range increment of 6" while a Tier-1 Special Forces Elite unit would have a range increment of 12". It's a very different style of game, but if you want to add more "this acts like the real world" to your table, you might want to give Stargrunt II a read. Everything's online, just google it.b

Unless you have a good deal you'll miss out on, I don't see why you shouldn't wait. I guess it depends on how much you have at the moment vs. what you want.

@@nickrivas6429 this was the answer I was hoping for. My money is limited, and I’m terrified of buying blood Angel specific characters only for new versions to come out, making the old ones obsolete and retired lol

Yes I'd wait personally (as I am to add anything else to mine yet). If you did want to slowly build up and paint some things in codex preparation, Dante, Mephiston and the Jump Intercessors could be good options to start with given they're already updated models. I'm hoping they redo the Sanguinary guard as seems to have been rumoured :)

@@auspextactics agreed! The sanguinary guard are solid pieces but their stupid high point cost keep me from ever considering using them with Commander Dante

I was thinking they need a light tank design! We have medium (Russes), heavy (Dorns), super-heavies (Baneblades) but where are our speedy light tanks? I guess Sentinels are supposed to fill that role?

​@@Peter_Wendt we kinda do have light tanks, but they are dold by Forge World. Carnadons are these cool light tanks that solar auxillia used in the times of great crusade

Thousand Suns are not kind to Imperial Infantry.

As a fellow brood brother enjoyer, i concur

Targets sighted, Commissar!

Commisar, this one genuinely sides with the oppressors, shall I offer them the Four Armed Emperor's kindness?

@@JankTank (Fires two indirect fire shots with Basilisks. Misses twice)

Darn it, are these new artillery sights miscalibrated or something? It's like they miss half the time!

Absolutely. I was already taking dorns, russes and blobs of infantry, and no artillery. My list got cheaper and more dangerous.

Lord Solar and the Command Blob is still cheaper than three Squadron Orders worth of Tank Commanders.

Sick I love apples to oranges.​@@ragzaugustus

@@ragzaugustus Yeah, the Command Blob is 20 pts more than a TC with Grand Strategist, but comes with one more order and a free command point

The command blob also has a Mortar to designate Fields of Fire +1 AP more efficiently and easily

I mean, the new one isn't a penalty, in the same way that "you hit only on an unmodified 6" isn't a penalty on Overwatch. It's not ignorable - not with Sentinels for us, not with Mortarion for Death Guard.

Welcome to the guard son

Looks like we have a volunteer, boys! Over the top, soldier!