It's funny because Athlean-X was the first fitness KZfaqr I started watching, now I'm laughing at some of these "tips" from him.

I used to follow athlean years and years ago. lol. For the longest time I never showed any real growth and stayed the same size for years. Now I just laugh at people who see him as a fitness guru and take his advice as gold. Glad I found the real science side. Now with LPs my growth has been more noticeable. For lat raises I just use dumbbells and lean on my side on an incline bench to get more tension and stretch on the bottom.

Beginning is perfect - some decent advice and a lot of terrible advice. While years ago he got me excited about training and nutrition and I made some gains on one of his programs, I don’t know if the neuroticism re: mobility and injury was worth it. I believed and told friends certain exercises and methods of performing them were dangerous. I thought my technique and mobility were much worse than they actually were. Now, I don’t recommend his channel or co-sign anyone who asks about him. Thank you for this video!

Please make a series of best exercises for each body part to maximize stretch mediated hypertrophy

The faces athlean-x makes 💀💀

Lol totally agree with the last part, had the misfortune of spending a $100 on one of his programs and all he does is make them super hard so you feel like you're making progress but you don't get a lot of gains.

Jeff is the perfect example that u dont need to be particulary good at ur job to be very succesful. U good with words? Ure 80% there

It's always funny when people say *"The muscle gets a rest in this position"* like it completely diminishes the productivity of the exercise. If your setup & execution is on point, I doubt it really makes any difference.

Is Athleanx working out in a sweatshop in the Philippines? Why is he out of breath demoing exercises lol.

Getting slight Dr. Mike vibes here 😀.

Is it true that the Athlean X video is over 5 years old? From what I've seen, a lot of the strong evidence for hypertrophy with lengthed partials and lengthened positions etc. is pretty new by comparison?

Jeff took full advantage of the early days of "influencing." Years ago the only sources of training were magazines filled with road lifters.

Man that biopsychosocial thing is so crucial

How about lying on your side for db side raises? It reverses the resistance curve, putting the most resistance at the stretch position.

In my post-graduate studies, I was taught full ROM training with an emphasis on eccentric phase will lead to increased sarcomeres in series and an increase in fascile length, whereas concentric shorter ranges leads to sarcomeres in parallel and a greater cross sectional area. If that's the case (and I'm not an expert obviously), wouldn't body builders be more interested in increasing CSA and pennation angle through short ROM reps?

The point about pain being bio-psycho-social and the bad effects of fearmongering is a profound one that deserves a video of its own.

Oh man this is a good one to review can’t believe he slipped my mind. So just curious would the “worst exercises” be ones that the opposite of lengthened partials? No tension in the lengthened position and are hardest in the shortest?

another cool video, Milo. Thank you. As an idea for future videos - what about the exercises you recommend? E.g., the kickback, so hated by you due to not working at a longer muscle length was praised (maybe to strong of a word) by Jeff Nippard. Maybe you could reflect on that? Other than that, keep up the grea work. Enjoying your videos a lot, man. On another personal note - I can't seem to get my upper chest working when doing incline presses. However, my upper chest seems to grow a bit when doing guillotine dumbell presses. Steady tempo, even slow, stretched at the bottom with light weights as this exercise strains my shoulders. Of course is not the case for many people but for me seems to be the case (i.e. guillotine working while incline press not really).

Cable triceps kickback is a more effective version imo. But then it's almost a push down from a different angle

I WAS FAIRLY LUCKY...ATHLEAN X WAS FIRST INFLUENCER I STARTED FOLLOWING OVER 10 YEARS AGO...LEARNED A FEW GOOD THINGS FROM HIM AND THEN MOVED ON...HE IS GOOD FOR BEGINNERS...AS FOR HIS PARTIAL PRESSING...THIS VIDEO I THINK IS AROUND 10 YEARS OLD AND THE EVIDENCE OF PRESSING WEIGHT AT THE MOST STRETCHED POSITION WAS HYPERTROPHIC WAS NOT OUT YET

Picking a shitty tricep exercise to talk about full ROM is a great example of how with a contrived, bad example you can prove whatever you want

the irony is that while relaxing into the fully stretched position DOES momentarily take some tension off the muscle, contracting FROM that relaxed position is often much harder than keeping the muscle tense. when doing DB shoulder presses, it takes a lot more effort to relax and let the shoulder drop before picking it back up again

I agree that the tricep kickback is not the best for growth but it gives strength gains in the shortened range

I train both lengthened and shortened position exercices. Both has benefits and I would advise to have exercices for both. However, a greater portion of exercices should be for the lengthened position for hypertrophy. If you're not an athlete, the shortened position is less important. Also the lengthened position actually signals way more adaptations for the connective tissues, skipping it may detrimental over the long term.

I've come to think that big part of what Cavaliere says comes from his own shoulder injuries. And that he has developed a way to train around them. However promoting the same to everyone and using it as preventative method is a bit weird. Like you don't train like someone who has an injury just to prevent the injury. And furthermore you don't get injured by doing that which you avoid because you got injured and can't do it. It's also curious that initially I didn't find working out shoulders was in my interests and that many isolation shoulder exercises just didn't feel like they did much at all (including the programs he advises, the burn was real, not sure about the gains). Then I started dabbling with olympic lifting and doing cleans just exploded the shoulders. That feared internal rotation of shoulders. That lengthened relaxed position that doesn't have the shoulders kick in. That's what suddenly grew me shoulders in a very short time. That snatching where arms go behind the shoulders. Zero injuries, my shoulders are actually healthier than in all my adult life (just an anecdote, not a proof, but the personal experience is quite different).

Keep on great work bro🙌🏻

Interesting how i watched it back then but thanks to all the people at rp and sbs and bbm im so disappointed at jeff video. On the dumbbell lateral raise there can be a valid argument to end the rep at the bottom. That temporary rest can allow for more volume which we KNOW is very important for growth. We dont workout to make an exercise harder. We work out to get bigger or stronger.

Dumbbell kickbacks are like using goto in C 😅

Hey Milo, what do you think about Chris Beardsley and his critique of stretch under tension hyperthrophy?

I stopped watching athlean-bs X after I avoided upright rows, then I added them after watching Dr. Mike and they felt ackward for the wrist first 2 times, then my body got used to them and they are awesome for shoulders, never experience any pain or discomfort....

To be fair, there was very little research about muscle lengths in 2018 and without the research that's available today, it would have been impossible to gauge the effectiveness of partial range of motion and muscle lengths. Jeff made the unfortunate mistake of using soreness and metabolic fatigue to evaluate exercise effectiveness.

So glad you mentioned the biospychosocial model. Barbell Medicine mentions this model quite frequently…

Excellent video.

I can't believe he was speaking against ROM with DB overhead presses. That's insane to me. Learning to bring the DBs to down to my shoulders is one of the two things that really helped my shoulders grow. Sure, you can't lift as much weight, but in my experience, it pays off nicely. Funny thing, the other thing that really helped my shoulders is face pulls, which AthleanX was the one who sold me on them back in the day. I just wish his information were at least consistent in quality, whether good or bad.

This made my day

What does he know about gains anyways? Dude has been the same size since i first came across his chamnel like ten years ago.

10/10 thumbnail

I don't have a belief that if I round my back, it will cause injury. I know that if I round my back, it will cause injury. There is a caveat to this though. I fragmented my my L4 and herniated my L3 years ago, and if I round my back with any kind of load, especially if I'm not conscious about keeping my core tight, my disc will bulge and I'm in pain for the next 6-10 days. For anyone with a healthy back, rounding is going to be fine.

Speaking of pain during exercies, when it comes to deadlifting, a bit of rounding i believe it's actually harmless because first of all it's near impossible for me to notice, only other dudes at the gym ever notice that, but when it rounds significantly then yeah it definently hurts.

If I've hurt myself and I need actual physio therapy advice I find Jeffs older videos from 5-7 years ago invaluable and I will always be grateful for the help I've received, esp for persistent back pain that, using Jeffs videos, I was able to identify as being cause by shortened hip flexors and fix with the right stretching. But most of his recent stuff is pretty clearly pseudoscience nonsense. He even had one recently with quotes from Mike Mentzer saying that a bicep curl only put tension on the elbow end of the bicep, and that a front lat pulldown was better for biceps because it moved two joints... Ignoring the fact that your bicep actually gets longer at the shoulder as you lower your arms, so it's not even a contractive movement...

Dr or not, if different methods work then why bother arguing. You guys are supposed to be professional. Whatever. Want to see real results and training? Look at the street calisthenics ppl. They embrace and welcome different methods instead of bashing each other. Ffs

bro you sound like there's some personal vendetta mixed in your critique

I have noticed before that Jeff doesn't really understand biomecanics. He once said that dips don't train the triceps! Something about the lower arm has to be perpendicular to gravity for triceps to work. Here he doesn't understand that triceps kickback isn't in the extended range of motion. So he hasn't grasped the idea behind this kind of training! Triceps extention overhead is the right exercise for that. And I mean in cables, not dumbbells..

Well I get that you don't like Jeff. It's obvious. Maybe you should reconsider be that toxic about it. Screaming "fuck off" is not going to prove anything. It's okay to disagree, but all this video is based just on your opinion. If you're a scientist as you claim, it would be great to back your words with some actual science papers. Or maybe it's some new kind of science, where people just screaming "fuck off" to prove a point?

He’s not fear mongering he’s telling it as it is from his physio background not from a PHD background

Here before the channel blows up

Sir wolfy , I need inspiration from missing the gym for 2 weeks being ill. Have I most lost everything, am I just a skeleton now, what’s the more realistic outcome

You remind me of one famous austrian painter with that accent

I agree with your criticisms but the clickbait thumbnail featuring the gesture is unnecessary in my opinion.

Great video! 💪💪

GREAT CONTENT! I HONESTLY APRECIATE YOUR POINT OF VIEW.

Soon to be dr wolf is the leg extension horrible since it has similar ROM and strength curve to the tricep kick back ?

Lol, a couple of times you jumped the gun and attacked him only for him to make the same point you did immediately after your interjection :D (e.g., with regard to tension in the cable lateral raise).

I am concerned that the biopsychosocial model of pain is brought to bear while its interpretations have been varied and controversial.

Lmao "what the FUCK is that tricep exercise??!" DrM rarely utilises profanity but when he does he goes to 0-swears-in-reserve

All your videos are very insightful with evidence from studies. Swearing at others doesn't make it cool.

Hang on, what you mean there are different views and opinions!! Who would have thought 😂

Lol 😂😂 love the comments 'now Dr Wolf' The constant "time under tension" constantly is bullshit.. it's just reps while being in a static rep all the same time. I might be wrong but common sense tells me being under constant tension could be a higher risk for injuries. Especially jerking the reps and not doing them controlled.. You're my favorite from now on.. thanks wolf

I do the trycep kick back in the same position but with a cable, more tension

Biopsychosocial model is real when it comes to pain, but it goes both ways: fear motion no gainz, or fuck up your lumbar spine like Ronnie Coleman. There is a healthy way of performing all kinds of physical labor and an unhealthy way that leads to old folks saying: you better do it your back is still young and fresh.

This is a video where he puts tut above rom. I doubt there isn’t one where he says the exact opposite with a “killing your gains” cherry on top…

I get what your saying, but not all avoidance of particular positions is due to fear mongering. We have had Dr. Stewart McGill over twice, and I've read all of his work. His lab work is fantastic and the rounding of the back during deadlifts is not a good idea. Can you get away with it for a bit....sure....but that will catch up to you. So I am always weary when someone starts slightly advocating for that type of training.

"No..Fuck off!" I love it!

His advice on lateral raise is probably correct though- first ~15 degrees is rotator cuff (and not side delt).

Some guys love w/midrange &/or full contraction, & see the stretch as something to shoot past. This's reinforced by pros w/such good genetics that it didn't matter, (Sergio Oliva Sr's midrange curls).

@milo the look on your face is priceless

Same here!

Yo bro don’t be this mean to jef chevalier 😢 he’s not a soon to be doctor like u ❤

I mean why the hell did he choose this exercise

Slow eccentric = ez gainsss

you need to chill just because you have been living inside a text book doesn't make you an authority. you prefaced this video by saying soon to be MD- this doesn't make you an authority on anything. Jeff is talking facts he's talking from a biomechanical perspective it is sound and accurate reasoning. He's trained more athletes than you and is much high calibre than you. You are just trying to be controversial to grow a following. You look like you barely been inside a gym why would anyone listen to you? because you picked up a camera?

F'ing love it when u say " F No, F off" 😂😂

Doesn’t Wolf advocate for lengthened partials these days ? That doesn’t sound like full ROM. Wouldn’t it be funny if everybody ended up agreeing with Joel Seedman ? Horrors!

I'd just point out the obvious: that Jeff wasn't doing a triceps video. He picked the kickback exercise not because he was advocating it as the best way to build triceps but just to illustrate the point that the most useful range of motion isn't necessarily the most full range possible. That would actually sync well with the idea that lengthened partials can be more useful than full ROM, though they are distinct points. I notice that you criticized Jeff for stopping his dumbbell side laterals short of hanging straight down, your grounds being that that wouldn't be the case with cable side laterals, where straight down and even beyond WOULD stretch the side delts. Criticizing his advice about the one exercise on the grounds that his point wouldn't apply to a completely different exercise is obvious nonsense - particularly when he himself shortly afterwards made the same point about the relative benefits of the cable side lateral. The one thing I did learn from your video, aside from the obvious fun it must be to target the very successful Jeff Cavalier, particularly on his cautious, avoid-injury-first approach (which approach I gravitate towards because I've had shoulder problems in the past, found them to be a horrible nuisance, and hope to never have them again), was that constant tension may not offer as much benefit as people once thought. For that insight, I thank you.

I like some of Athlean X stuff and I don't like some of his stuff too. I say Milo knows way more about range of motion in weight training than Jeff.

I wonder if there are any new ones. That video of Jeff's is 5 years old...

athleanx the goat

This is hilarious

Do Drew Baye next.

Hi there Dr. Wolf... fyi... I totally enjoy most of your informative videos... you obviously have a great education and lots of knowledge... The ONLY NEGATIVE I would give you... is thinking you have to swear and use the F word... I know you got the habit from your fat, bald, doctor friend... can't remember his name... I stopped watching him because he uses the F word way too much!!! Please, be professional, and clean up your vocabulary... thanks!👍

Lol all he used to do was teach full ROM...he used to be GREAT but he just makes quantity now

Good points on your end, but a bit harsh no? Video was over 5 years ago and I think Athleanx's latest videos showing him going full ROM in regards to shoulder presses. With that said though, Jeff Nippard is also a fan of the triceps kickback: kzfaq.infoCywhB_MNJ6o I think the philosophy for most folks who isn't into bodybuilding or competing is whatever exercise gets you and makes you stay at the gym.

Thanks for going in on him spewing nonsense for years. I wish more people saw your videos and less of people like him.

Lol v sheds adverts

Great video content-wise. Bit too much strong language/swearing in my opinion. Your points will come across without the swearing as well

Swearing ain't cool

Algorithmmmm

The Wolf

Wow.

Great video! Just wanted to point out that Jeff definitely talks about the lengthened position in some of his recent videos. His titles are way to clickbaity though.

You seem very angry.

Yet another arrogant know it all attempting to debunk someone who's knowledgeable, famous, and holds an actual meaningful position in life. Sorry, not interested.

Never heard Dr. Milo swear before, loved it. Now I've been lifting and put on size, I realise how skinny Jeff Cavaliere is. All these influencers are tiny guys who rely on downlighting and being lean - if you met them clothed in daily life, you wouldn't even know they lifted.

curlean x is not based at all

Most & only swearing by you than in any of your videos 😮

669'th like

As someone with arthritis with severe enthesitis, Jeff Cavaliere's advice is the top notch for pain-free movement, and I've used his resistance band exercises to great effect and been able to workout without flaring up pain in tendons. So, irrespective of exercise scientists gaming algorithm and trashing him to get views, I know for sure now that Jeff's advice is gold, and so do the thousands of people telling him in the comments that it helped them too.

Clout chasing on youtube... just put athlean-x in the title...too easy

Not many solid critiques in this one.

What is that accent 🤔