Augustine’s War Against Earthly Pride

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By Ben Bayer
St. Augustine’s philosophy marked a decisive turning point in the history of the West, the first systematic repudiation of the ancient Greek philosophical outlook in favor of Christian religion. Augustine’s ethics was especially crucial. He fundamentally repudiated the content of pagan views of virtue even as he retained certain trappings of their framework. The most telling example was Augustine’s celebration of the virtue of humility, in defiance of the Greek virtue of pride. This talk will highlight the roots of Augustine’s elevation of humility and outline how it helped usher in the dominance of the morality of altruism in both religious and secular Western philosophy.
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Recorded July 2, 2023, at OCON in Miami, Florida.
Timestamps
(00:00:00) - Lecture
(01:02:10) - Question Period
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Пікірлер: 204

@adamsmith5587 7 ай бұрын

Great talk

@gillesandfio8440 7 ай бұрын

This lecture was fixating. Just wow. Beyond my ability with words. Thank you.

@jessewallace12able 7 ай бұрын

This lecture is superb. The quality of it and the topic: just outstanding. Will watch multiple times. Way to go.

@terraflow__bryanburdo4547 7 ай бұрын

Aristotle's version of pride is what i would call nobility,i.e. a noble spirit or noble cause.

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

Theres a strong similarity to Ayn Rand and N. Branden on self-esteem and pride. And Nietzsche said the noble soul has reverence for itself.

@sixofone88 7 ай бұрын

I thoroughly enjoyed this superb and lively lecture which integrated history, philosophy, psychology, and biography!

@Racingnorthstar 7 ай бұрын

Hey Ben + Ocon this is a great lecture !!! Will be watching multiple times because this lecture alone touches so many different things! The wider origins of altruism project Ben mentioned sounds brilliant as well , will very much be looking forward to the finished version when its released. All fantastic !!!

@javiermancillavera3072 7 ай бұрын

Great video!

@nockianlifter661 7 ай бұрын

Great talk.

@edbonz2 7 ай бұрын

THIS IS EXCELLENT! $ THANK YOU DR BAYER. MONEY IS TRUE

@TheHerrUlf 7 ай бұрын

The Galt quote should be sent to Jordan Peterson

@bradm8529 6 ай бұрын

Brilliant

@chrisharris2862 5 ай бұрын

“Hubris” is the Greek work you’re looking for.

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

Can anyone explain to me how "pride" is involved in rejecting the opposite sex?

@robabiera733 7 ай бұрын

"above all earthly pinnacles"

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

What does he mean 'we can't think on our own?', Augustine isn't forwarding occasionalism, just illumination.

@Joao-id4dn 7 ай бұрын

The reasoning of Augustine is rooted in the Tanakh ( the jewish Bible, that corresponds to the protestant Old Testament). Anything bad that happened to the jews, the israeli prophets considered it as a punishment sent by God ( Yaweh) for the hebrew peoples sins. its a religious deterministic view of history that contrasts with Pericles pragmatic wordly mindset, where historical events are not determined by God but rather follow the logic of a survival of the fittest ( or the noblest? ) struggle between human societies.

@avneet12284 7 ай бұрын

🎉

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

Augustine's view of faulty senses is just a Platonic argument. He was a Platonist as applied to Christianity. He clearly loved Plato as C.S Lewis, say, did and applied it.

@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 7 ай бұрын

Thank you very much for this lecture. It was brilliant! We should still be aware of some negative sides of pride (narcissism etc) but humility has a big downfall too, probably bigger than pride. It always bothered me from my childhood about Christianity, because we should take pride in our virtues. We should be proud of our achievements even if we recognize that there is also a contribution of colleagues, or ideas that existed before us, or even our family or society that created a helpful environment for us contributes to our success.

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

MORAL VALUES REASON: IDENTIFICATION AND INTEGRATION OF PERCEPTIONS; UNIFYING KNOWLEDGE, CATEGORIZING PURPOSE: CONSCIOUS GOAL-DIRECTEDNESS SELF-ESTEEM: INVIOLATE CERTAINTY THAT ONE’S MIND IS COMPETENT TO THINK AND ONE’S PERSON IS WORTHY OF LIVING AND HAPPINESS MORAL VIRTUES RATIONALITY: FULL MENTAL FOCUS IN ALL ISSUES INDEPENDENCE: LIVING BY THE WORK OF ONE’S OWN MIND INTEGRITY: LOYALITY IN ACTION TO ONE’S CONVICTIONS AND VALUES HONESTY: REFUSAL TO FAKE REALITY JUSTICE: OBJECTIVELY JUDGING MEN’S CHARACTER AND ACTIONS AND ACTING ACCORDINGLY PRODUCTIVENESS: RATIONALLY SHAPING MATTER TO FIT ONE’S PURPOSE PRIDE: COMMITTMENT TO ACHIEVE ONE’S OWN MORAL PERFECTION CONFIDENCE: PRACTICAL FORM OF BEING TRUE TO ONE’S CONSCIOUSNESS COURAGE: PRACTICAL FORM OF BEING TRUE TO EXISTENCE TRADE: VOLUNTARY EXCHANGE OF MATERIAL AND SPIRITUAL VALUES FOR MUTUAL PROFIT Atlas Shrugged-Ayn Rand

@CuriousCattery 7 ай бұрын

Narcissism has absolutely nothing to do with pride. Narsissists are created by a repeated injury and destruction of the self from an early age. It is very clear from this comment and other comments you have made that you have either not read Atlas Shrugged or the Fountainhead or lack understanding of both. Furthermore, admiration and not humility is what is needed. Humility is a diminishing of the self in relation to others. Admiration, on the other hand, is the recognition of another's values and achievements. Humility stoops while admiration reaches upwards.

@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 7 ай бұрын

@@CuriousCattery Narcissism is the other side of the pride. Each good quality has its negative pair. In the age then Rome abandoned the Republic and became a totalitarian regime, the pride of a tyrant is a negative quality. It could be that Augustine mainly addressed it to the tyrants. And it worked to some degree, as Christianity in Europe demanded some sort of self-control even from the tyrant. It was not perfect of cause. Admiration is worse than humility. Yes, you should recognize other people's achievements even if they are lesser than yours. The perfect example is Newton. But nobody has impunity from criticism. You never will be creative if you look at accomplished people with admiration. You should be free to criticize them and do better. I struggle with reading Ayn Rand. Mostly, because I am a physicist with multiple publications, patents, startup experience, etc. And I see a total misunderstanding of the process in every corner of Ayn Rand's books. Yes, her heroes were sort of supposed to be from a middle-class humble background that struggled to get on the top using their genius talents. But it was not clear what was the talents, it was definitely obvious that most people would not be able to survive, so they had some source of income. Most people had to start working at an early age just to make enough money for food at that time. It means goodbye to education, and everything after that is irrelevant. There are 8 billion talents on the planet right now. Many of them are dying from hunger, and many of them never will get an education. I know that Ayn Rand always emphasized that her protagonists are self-made people. It was not convincing, sorry.

@CuriousCattery 7 ай бұрын

@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 @ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 then why are you here in the comments section of an objectivist youtube channel? And how can you criticize books you've never read? Pride and narcissism are not the same thing on a spectrum, I was raised by a narsissist, and she had no self and no self-esteem. Pride is impossible without a self. A tyrant is not a person with a self either. One has to obliterate the self in order to treat others in that way. I'm sorry, but I know nonsense when I read it. You should start a KZfaq channel and call yourself a guru.

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

@@CuriousCattery Narcissism is love of self, which is a virtue in a morality of life and if one has created a rational self. For Christian death-worship, of course, willful stupidity and the resulting self-contempt are moral virtues.

@bretnetherton9273 7 ай бұрын

Awareness is known by awareness alone; is the sole irreducible axiom of reality. To put forth a syllable to the contrary is but to concede.

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

How about reality as an irreducible axiom?

@bretnetherton9273 7 ай бұрын

If existence exist as something what is that something, and if existence exist as all things what knows all things?

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

@@bretnetherton9273 Look out at reality, not inward. Focus your mind. Existence is Identity. Existence is everything, literally. Mind is limited. It knows concretely some things. Your mystical context is irrational.

@bretnetherton9273 7 ай бұрын

Awareness is the only constant of all experience what could be more fundamental to reality than that?

@bretnetherton9273 7 ай бұрын

To state that existence exist and consciousness (awareness) exist and that one existence is primary to another is nonsensical.

@wurzel9671 7 ай бұрын

39:11

@punchforpound2808 6 ай бұрын

Lecturer talks so slow with long pauses. Not good for his students IMO. 0:48 for example.

@diegomorales8616 7 ай бұрын

Today I learned that BC*E* exists.

@LSMitchell 7 ай бұрын

I really enjoyed this. It was objectively 😉 enlightening. Bayer is ridiculously brilliant.

@freedomwriter1995 7 ай бұрын

Pride can often lead to destruction, especially if it isn't earned.

@AssaultSpeed 7 ай бұрын

If it's not earned it's not pride.

@freedomwriter1995 7 ай бұрын

@@AssaultSpeed ever heard of pride before the fall

@TheHerrUlf 7 ай бұрын

It isn't really pride if it is unearned

@AssaultSpeed 7 ай бұрын

@@freedomwriter1995 Christian nonsense

@tomburroughes9834 7 ай бұрын

Agreed. There has to be a sense of accomplishment that is earned.

@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 7 ай бұрын

I still have a problem with your war on egalitarianism. It is the doctrine that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities (definition from Google). It is literally what we have in the US Constitution! All people have equal rights and should have equal OPPORTUNITIES to pursue happiness. It means all the laws should work the same for everyone. It means we should not reject the right of a citizen based on gender or color. Society should be able to give people a comparably equal start - education, medical help, basic living. And a person could take pride in what he achieved with it. This actually would make the pride more meaningful and related to the achievements and not to the luck. If in the same school with equal access to all the school activity, without starvation and access to nutritional food, etc one child has better results and work harder than others he really could be proud of his achievements. It is not the result of his parents that pushed him to an elite school while other kids had to help his parents make money with work that only took time and didn't give them better skills. An egalitarian society actually provides a real basis for pride.

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

Egalitarianism is a nihilist attack on mans independent mind and thus pride and individual rights. The US Const is an anti-egal politics, w/not even an implicit protection for any opportunity beyond individual rights. It protects the individual rights that are the product of a rationally moral view of freedom of action in society. It does not create rights. Society,an abstraction,.cannot give anything. Your hidden context is theft from productive people.

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

Ekaterina, does that reference to "gender" mean you believe that biological boys should be given "an equal start" by competing in girls' sports so that he could "take pride" in his achievement by being something he is not? Because there is a lot of that going around.

@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 7 ай бұрын

@@lefantomer I really don't like sport as it is today. It is not healthy. We have athletes who endure lots of injuries, taking steroids and ruining their health on one side. On the other side, there are fat people eating popcorn and hotdogs, sitting and watching sports as very unhealthy entertainment instead of participating in some physical activity. It is a multi-billion industry that makes people less healthy. If we exercise the sport for health benefits there will not be a problem with boys and girls competing against each other. Second, the whole discussion about boys in women's sports is dishonest because they have only boys who have hormonal treatment. I don't really support easy access to hormonal treatment for boys that want to be girls but it is a different story.

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

@@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 Am I mistaken in suspecting that you are eager to put legal restrictions on activities of which you do not approve, such as sports entertainment? Do you want to pass laws about what people can eat at such events as well? Your opinions are your right, but if you believe that government should be in the "business" of enforcing them, then you are an advocate of statism. As for boys/men butting in to female sports, aside from the ones with actual delusions regarding their sex, I believe quite a few have now learned that it is an "easy" way to cheat and "win" prizes they do not deserve. I'm curious. Why is someone who is obviously an advocate of state interference in many aspects of our lives even watching a hour and a half of an Objectivist lecture?

@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812 7 ай бұрын

@@lefantomer if you are so against restriction, then why men can't participate in women's sports? I don't watch sports except rhythmic gymnastics, although I prefer ballet. I like playing tennis with friends, mostly males because my female friends are less active. I like going kayaking and sailing and I do regular ballet exercises for health reasons. I really don't care about professional sports. I think there is a zero chance to pass the law you are talking about - too much money involved. Although there are actually many regulations regarding what we are eating. There were much less regulations in the Victorian era and people were dying because of that.

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

I don't understand why he's on such a gotcha attack on Augustine, he must have been hurt by Christianity. Aristotle just wasn't around those days, the text were largely lost until the Muslims brought it to Europe around 1100s and then the Christians took hold and Aristotle reigned for the next 500 years. This is typical of philosophy and theology, a lot of it is missing information or relying on false texts.

@roguedisciple5961 7 ай бұрын

Actually, Boethius and Cassiodorus preserved the texts of Aristotle during the Fourth Century.

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

Christianity is the worship of hurt,as its basic symbol, crucifixion,clearly shows. Christianity is the religion of self-hurt and hurting others. Christianity is the black mass of death-worship. The Christian respect for Aristotles philosophy of reason was their ability to prostitute it into an intellectual and political rationalization of their black mass of death-worship. But their failure to recognize the basic power of reason to guide selfish knowledge and selfish achievement helped cause the 18th century Enlightenment, the least religious culture in the Wests 3000 years, less than Greece. The same cause almost ended Catholicism in the 19th century. Modern Christianity was nihilist, w/Barth, Tillich, etc. Post-modern Christianity is a rejection of Aristotle and the West for an openly mindless return to the Dark Ages. See The Sermon On The Mount for Jesus' praise of short-range thinking and dependence upon fantasy. Christianity must be removed from mans sacred independent soul, like the spiritual cancer that it, Christianity, is.

@TheJustinJ 7 ай бұрын

Aristotle had a profound influence on Alexander the Great who conquered nearly the entire middle east around 350BC. And who the Romans emulated. There was a willful rejection of reason and a deep rooted hatred of Alexanders success, especially among Hebrews and early Christians. See 1 Maccabees.

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

What is it with you babies of the Little Lord Jesus that your answer to every criticism of Xianity is "ooo were you HURT by it"? Why aren't you in church begging forgiveness for being human instead of hanging around people who take pride in their identity as rational beings?

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

@@roguedisciple5961 sure, some of them right? Seems like the works didn't come back into Europe until 1200s?

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

This feels an immature 'gotcha Christians!', he's basically saying one of the greatest philosophers who thought all day thought that thinking was a sin, which doesn't make sense. I'm not sure he has a strong understanding of faith and reason. Thinking without the guidance of faith for Augustine is vanity. Faith (God's reason provides to man) seeking reason (human reason attempt to understand God) is his calling card.

@HAHAHAHAHA477 7 ай бұрын

He didn't say thinking was a sin, but that deriving pride from it (i.e. pride in the fact that we can know reality) was a sin. Which is far a more insidious attack, for it is an attack on taking pride in our nature as Man, the rational being.

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

Agreed, in the Christian black mass of death-worship. Disagreed, in mans mind focused onto concrete reality.

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

Oh dear, someone wants to be sure he is Right With God so he can be scooped up into the sky and See Grandma Again, otherwise life is meaningless, and that human reason can never "understand" the fable that is "God".

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

@@lefantomer you can't compete intellectually so you use sarcasm. The irony is you're calling me stupid.

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

@@HAHAHAHAHA477 I'm not sure about that. Augustine is saying we are illuminated by God's light or charity which directs us to the right answers. Its not that reason isnt respected as a power, it's that it's an unguided power that will easily be lead to ruin unless it it properly guided. His view here is much as we view science today, yes we can think up a million great theories, but only empirical demonstration can shine a light on what is actually the case

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

I think he has a simplistic view of pride and humility. Humility ie just acknowledging the objective truth. If someone gafs accomplished something they can be proud of it, even on Augustine's view, but they have to acknowledge powers higher than them allowed for it. In Augs case it was God. Aug was a whiner with deep issues, but I don't think many theologians would disagree with his definition of pride, they'd just call it humility.

@Crapcarp555 7 ай бұрын

Humility isn't just acknowledging objective truth, it can result in denying it as well. One can be overly humble and discount their achievements for their true value or even degrade themselves to an unhealthy degree. It can be just as damaging as arrogance to the psyche. In fact, the prevalence of over-humility due to Christian dominance within Western culture is a major reason why depression is so common in the Western world.

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

@@Crapcarp555 @Crapcarp555 being 'overly humble' is to be excessive. Virtue is the mean between two extremes-to be overly humble isn't to be humble. The Christian defintion of humility is more like to now down before objective reality, to acknowledge the Truth as standing over oneself who stands under it (understands it). To ignore reality is sin because its pride in the wrong way, to blind onself form reality to place onself before it, seemingly first.

@kphaxx 7 ай бұрын

I think you're mixing up the modern usage of the term with how Augustine used it

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

> Humility ie just acknowledging the objective truth. Humility is self-contempt, not knowledge. Objectivity creates pride in ones competencee and courage in knowing truth. The evasion of truth causes humility. The highest moral power is the independent mind. Your hidden context is the morality of death.

@Crapcarp555 7 ай бұрын

@@dav__71 _"being 'overly humble' is to be excessive. Virtue is the mean between two extremes-to be overly humble isn't to be humble."_ By that standard, pride would be the same way: being overly prideful isn't to be prideful. _"The Christian defintion of humility is more like to now down before objective reality, to acknowledge the Truth as standing over oneself who stands under it (understands it)."_ Except there's no need to bow down before objective reality. In fact, such reverence is a distraction from what one should do: learn about it.

@James-ll3jb 7 ай бұрын

Lifts from Nietzsche. Move along folks.😅

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

So why are you here?

@James-ll3jb 7 ай бұрын

@@lefantomer sheer amusement!

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

@@James-ll3jb Really? So what is it that you don't find "amusing"? I figure anyone who can get Nietzsche out of an Objectivist lecture probably has some pretty exotic notions about The Meaning of Life. Care to "enlighten" us?

@James-ll3jb 7 ай бұрын

@@lefantomer . Read my "World and Possibility"

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

Augustine's response isn't at all shut up and don't ask so many questions. This is such a straw man it's rediculous. It's don't ask questions without faith guiding you. This guy is just on a mission and can't see his own flaws of research.

@mannyjeanpierre4062 7 ай бұрын

But what is faith though??? Its believing without any evidence or facts to correlate. It in essence is to think but not really lol

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

...without the acceptance of ideas without evidence of reality guiding you

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

Aquinas would say it's defined as God's reason that is above and beyond man's, e.g. God is three persons in one substance. Faith is also needed for science in the sense that we can't know that physical constants will remain so but we assume it will.

@dav__71 7 ай бұрын

@@mannyjeanpierre4062 but as far as his argument goes it doesn't matter if you agree with faith or not, Augustine isn't saying don't think and don't ask questions

@mannyjeanpierre4062 7 ай бұрын

thinking is exactly what Augustine attacks. Christianity is based off not questioning or challenging God, believing what someone tells you despite contrary evidence@@dav__71

@terrorists-are-among-us 7 ай бұрын

"How Ayn Rand invented Narcissism" 🤯😂

@TheHerrUlf 7 ай бұрын

"How Jesus invented spitting in one's own face."

@TeaParty1776 7 ай бұрын

The Greeks discovered the rational, pride-furthering virtue of self-love. Rand discovered rational life as its basis. Christianity is a rationalization of self-hatred as a need of its black mass of death-worship.

@terrorists-are-among-us 7 ай бұрын

@@TeaParty1776 you've clearly never read the book or failed to comprehend it 🤡

@terrorists-are-among-us 7 ай бұрын

@@TheHerrUlf "how internet clowns make no sense cause they're delusional and afraid of GOD" 😂

@lefantomer 7 ай бұрын

@@terrorists-are-among-us I thought that's what you Christians wanted us to be: in fear of your god?

@freedomwriter1995 7 ай бұрын

Pride tends to be dangerous.

@science212 7 ай бұрын

Pride is ethical and logical. But we need reason.

@robabiera733 7 ай бұрын

The assault on pride is absolutely dangerous.