Is this real life? A rational, intelligent, open-minded, respectful conversation about FOC? Thank you both for the humanity it is much appreciated. Sadly, I’m not sure the masses will tolerate 36 minutes of this non-violent candour. Maybe you should let people know in the title that Nate gets eaten by dr. Ashby. Just a thought.

That was fun. The "Cerebral Archer" goes head to head with the "Practical Archer" about a favorite topic of the "Mad Archer"... also, my three favorite channels. Thanks!

Great chat guys, well done! What Nate said about heavy aluminum arrows and pass-throughs is spot on and correlates with what Troy and I talked about in our chat a few weeks ago. Pass-throughs were a given, we never had deer run away with 18" of arrow hanging out of their chest cavities and our "fast" compound bows generated about 230 FPS.

Omg can we please have more of these. I loved both of you working together.

The intro is amazing!! Good job, Brandon!

You guys need to collaborate more often. Fantastic job! Trajectory is something we should all talk about. Or you talk about and have us listen. Either really.

Easily one of the best Archery KZfaq Channels out there 👌

Love the intro man!!! As a target archer, FOC is not what i focus on. For arrow build i would focus more getting the correct spine, lenght and point weight to tune the arrow for the best possible grouping regardless of the FOC

This is amazing! Its great to see 2 intelligent and well versed shooters positively discussing this. Alot of fun to watch and great points all around. How its apart of the whole system.

Can we please get another one of these? I really enjoyed this video. Thanks Brandon and Nate!

It's funny that I thought I was the only one that watched both of you, and you freaking know each other! That was pretty cool to watch and listen to. What I've learned, from both of you, in the last six months or so is that I use FOC and GPP as sort of left and right boundaries for my arrow builds. I try to stick to between 11 and 15% FOC and 6.75 and 9 GPP. This takes both the arrow configuration and the bow specs into consideration. So i figure that an arrow shot from my bow that is in between both of those sets of guard rails has a shot of making a clean hole thru paper, and has enough weight to kill a deer.

I was having a bad day. Then I saw you uploaded a video, and that changed immediately. Thank you!!

Legit my two favorite KZfaqrs.

Great job gentlemen, appreciate the discussion and looking forward to more of this style of video in the future.

This was the best!! Great conversation and facts!!! And.... When you find an arrow, fletches and broadheads you like... BUY ALL YOU CAN!! They will be discontinued at some point!

That was awesome! Two of my favorite archery guys to watch. We need another one of these. It was informational and fun to watch!

I shoot a 705gn arrow with 21% FOC…which is only a heavy and useless stick without a properly tuned bow. This video has been out longer than I’ve been shooting a bow but I’ve learned so much thanks to videos like this and others. I shoot standard weight arrows as well. Great video

You guys gotta do more of these! This was the funniest commentary I learnt a lot from. You’ve narrowed out some of the arrow building experiments I’d blow my savings on. Keep it comin’

Enjoyed the authenticity guys! Nice to listen to an actual discussion.

Great to hear 2 of my favorite KZfaqrs have a civil conversation. Both make good points. After last season fiasco I through all my mechanicals away. I shouldn’t have been stubborn when I shot the fixed I had more consistent kills bad or good shots. But kept trying the mechanicals finally after what I thought was a good shot but ended being bad and no deer found was the 2x4 to the head to get me to understand. Thanks again.

Brilliant video and discussion. I laughed, enjoyed and learned from it! Thanks for teaming up on this!

You guys HAVE to do this more often! My two favorite’s on a great subject...

You guys need to do more podcasts. This information was great all around from different views and different experiences and not heating up. You guys looked like you were have fun. Thanks again. Great job

Haha this was awesome! Thanks for bringing a rational conversation about a very polarizing archery topic. One of the best discussions I’ve seen on KZfaq in a long time!

Good stuff. I like seeing the collaboration between two archery minds. Do more of this.

that was FOCin awesome! im buidling some arrows now and this was helpful!

I very much enjoyed this. Great conversation and sensible arguments. Hope to see more of this on the channel.

This is great! I follow both of you and you definitely have to do this again. Great video

can honestly say i enjoyed this video thoroughly. the back and forth lightness and complete information that you guys share is priceless. i myself use solid, one piece broad heads with my Q2xl. absolutely beautiful flight path

The only person that rings my notifications bell Way to go man post MORE 👍👍👍

Great video, really appreciate both of you and the info you put out.

Great video liked the collaboration of you too. By the way I am one those guys that still shoots a Switchback, and don't want to change my set up. I agree with some of the others you need to bring in The Ranch Fairy. I was also excited to see this video.

Wow. That was fun to watch. My wife even sat through it ... well ... at least the first 2-3 minutes, which is a record for KZfaq archery videos. It is great how a couple of experienced guys can debate their thoughts on building arrows in a forum that promotes the sport and doesn’t degrade to tearing it down.

Great dialogue guys. I like seeing the more serious side of Average Jack.... I’m have been dialing back my FOC charge, focusing on around 500 gr arrow to get good distance, good flight and in the 15% FOC range..

I've been waiting for another video!! These dudes are both great resources. Brandon you are one of my favorite channels on KZfaq.

Think about it - build it - test it and if you like the result use it. I really enjoyed the conversation and I absolutely learned some things.

Love you guys! Empirical data is best. My 27.5” 60# V3X shooting #207 swhacker 440gn total weight passes both lungs and sticks in dirt 100% of time on broadside shots, even large mature whitetail. I shoot as far forward as possible without hitting shoulder bones. Quartering away I’ll bury one in the far shoulder sometimes. I limit my shots to 45 degrees or less away and 15 degrees toward. No problem they are all down in 100yds and usually 40yds or less.

I don't worry about foc.. I build the arrow.. tune the bow and the arrow together and then kill things. 430 to 530 seems to be a sweet spot for me 485 ish. Cool video really enjoyed it. Thanks guys. And if you don't agree with the fairy 100% all the time he gets mad.

I hunt elk in CO with a 55# Helix Ultra, 30.5". Rampage 300, Ethics 120 gr footer/sleeve. 250 gr Cutthroat SB. TAW 650 gr, 27% FOC. Arrow cost ~$16 less BH. Hits 11 of 12 Ashby's factors. It flys perfect, easy to tune. Fletched with 3 - 1.75"x3/8" high AAE max vanes. Great groups. Maybe this year I will get to slurp it thru an elk. Thanks guys, this was fun to watch 2 gentlemen discuss FOC. Good job!!!

intro was amazing. content was awesome. quickly becoming one of my favorite channels. keep it up!

Damn I see an archery podcast. I like that they are kind of different archers and can play the devils advocate and have different opinions on things.

Shooting a 560 Gn arrow with a magnus black hornet on the front of it with 17% foc for about $40 per arrow and there zipping through every thing, but perfect arrow flight was the biggest factor in this I do believe ! Good video guys.

Great intro 👍🏼 I enjoyed how it panned out, I was expecting a big battle but thankfully it wasn’t lol. Great points from both of you. I love some FOC.

The intro! Bahahaha. Love it. Learned a lot from you both, and yes even Troys goofy butt.

I loved the show. Being a low DL guy I can say FOC makes a difference for me. The long DL people probably don’t benefit as much, because they have the horsepower and don’t need as much FOC as us short DL people.Now, I totally agree with perfect arrow flight and arrow integrity. My setup is 250 grains up front, total weight 515 grains with a 60lb draw and 27.5 DL. My setup is 18% FOC and it doesn’t cost me $60 an arrow.

This was awesome! So much knowledge being dropped in a practical manner. Keep it up boys!

Like both said I think having FOC can help but you got to have your arrow flying straight.. I think alot of people don't get pass through because they know their arrow is hitting where they aim but don't know how their arrows are actually hitting. If most people cut their fletchings off an arrow it might not even stick in the target, fletchings correct alot of it and they never notice until it hits an animal that so much momentum is lost when it's coming sideways lol..Great video guys!

Anecdotal evidence but my last set of twigs were 550 grain Easton Axis. When sighting in I sent two arrows high , both struck rock(40+ yards) and broke where the field point screws into the HIT insert. I've had similar happen with FMJ and Hexx twigs. I just built a set of 608 grain Day Six arrows and sent one into a rock on purpose. It'll need a new field point but the arrow is totally fine. Adding outserts is similar to adding splines to a drive shaft. The load is spread out over a larger area and results in an exponential increase in strength.

I like 5mm shaft's too. Especially out here in WY with the wind.

Enjoyed the video/podcast. I agree with literally everything. One thing I want to add is that I do believe that we should differentiate between traditional(off the riser) and compound arrows. I think that high FOC has a place in traditional archery for sure. I believe it is significantly less important from a compound(especially drop away rests) as long as it is still a reasonable number...nothing too high, nothing too low. Let me know if you guys agree.

That was a great show guys!! I’d like to see more of those!

Best start to a show ever.

Fantastic! Nate is a bad dude! Nicely done boys! Smiled the whole time

Great discussion and I would agree that bow tuning comes first and arrow spine selection combined with FOC is in addition.

Adding weight in the front does not stiffen the arrow it weakens the spine

Great to see you twos collaboration. I finally landed on a 300 gn rampage, with 100 gn iron will insert/outsert and 100 gn Daysix Broadhead for 200 total up front. 3 fletch AAE max stealth and 4” wrap. My arrow is 504 gn total, 16% foc and seems to be super deadly and manageable. 30.5” / 65 #. My only complaint is that I’m only shooting them at about 266 FPS. Don’t want to crank my bow up anymore because I I shoot a lot and want to save my shoulders. Good to here both sides of the story here!

Fantastic! Two of my favorite archery personalities in one place!

Two of the three Archery 🏹 related Content Creators that I watch the most doing a collab together, that was amazing and so helpful. (The other being Troy from Ranch Fairy) Troy mentions this multiple times as he refers back to Dr Asby's teachings. He mentions that Structural Integrity, Perfect Arrow Flight and SUPER SHARP fixed blade or cut on contact broadheads, etc... are more important than being a crazy FOCer. If a softball doesn't fly as perfect as a baseball there's no "point" in shooting the larger Adult Arrow. I really enjoyed this intelligent and articulate discussion on one of the hottest topics in the Archery 🏹 world right now. Adding a "little" humor too. Hopefully you two can collaborate again. I would even listen in podcast format while I'm driving. I for one am suffering from inconsistencies in arrow flight and accuracy. As you know I have an older bow 06 PSE Fire Flite 33 from Cabela's that's set up with a 29 inch draw and 60 lbs. I switched over from the Cabela's Xtreme Hunter 340s (9.3 gpi standard insert) to the Carbon Xpress Mayhem SD (11.25 gpi and 45 grain insert) and have tried Magnus Stinger Buzzcut, SIK F4, and G5 Montec CS all 100 grain broadheads. I recently got a custom bowstring and cables ($90) and release ($90 TruBall Beast), but I am still not getting what I want out it. I need to find a real bowshop this spring and go there before turkey season even if it is an hour and a half drive away.

Fellas, that just made my day. Great video.

Awesome stuff! Overall, I care about foc because it gives me an excuse to tinker. When us guys are really passionate about something, we like to tinker and experiment, and it gives us the perfect excuse to buy stuff haha.

I needed to be reminded every couple minutes you were talking about arrows... "So let's talk about penetration... you have a microdiameter shaft..."

Hey Brandon I’ve found great arrow flight with a gold tip kinetic pierce platinum running Valkyrie 53 grain ss sleeve and the 180 grain tip. 580 taw 17 percent foc. It’s lights out and has help up better than the vaps I built last year with the 21 grain aluminum and 200 grain tip.

Having some FOC should help with arrow flight with fixed blade broadheads, because it gives the force from the fletching a longer moment arm and the broadhead a shorter moment arm to the center of gravity. This gives more steering control to the fletching and should make the system more forgiving overall when human error comes into play. However this does not make up for not having the bow and bare shaft tuned. I've been looking at Dr. Ashby's research for about a decade now, and am glad to see that it is being practiced, discussed and scrutinized. It all leads to a better understanding of our sport.

I really appreciate the educated conversation and discussion. It is almost surreal. However, everything you stated is in 100% in agreement with Troy “The Ranch Fairy” Fowler. He follows the Ashby report as accurately as possible. His theory behind the high FOC, sharp, cut on contact broadheads is not for the perfect well placed shot.It is for that shot where the Whitetail jumps the string and you hit the shoulder. We all have that shot where we place it perfectly but the deer moves. Then we watch our arrow runoff with the deer and wonder if we will ever find it. Troy‘s theory is with the higher FOC, that Brodhead will not stop at the shoulder or the other shoulder but at the ground.

love this channel!

Great conversation! To add to it, you should have defined what is "High FOC". Your arrow with 25% FOC...thats Extreme FOC. I think the % for high FOC may be easier for people to achieve with a little tinkering.

I feel like ranch fairy should have entered in here somewhere Thanos style. Evil villain haha

“Slurp”?!? Technical term...! But I digress...keep up the good work, Brandon! Love all it...

I like both you guys and agree with MOST of what you both said, but I have to call out a couple little things. 1, you said early in the video that high FOC stiffens your spine. Not sure if you just misspoke but adding point weight always weakens spine (making the arrow MORE flexible). That's one of the ways trad archers tune their arrows. 2nd, him saying micro-d arrows are pointless if you use a 3 or 4 blade head....lol. Yeh no. Micros are pretty much all benefit/ no loss. They penetrate better regardless of head used, they are affected drastically less in crosswind, there's no reason to NOT use them. But I agree a fixed blade COC and a properly flying arrow will increase penetration. FOC is still debatable, but I don't think it has any impact on penetration. Overall arrow weight w/o a doubt does. FOC I think comes in to play more with how a fixed blade head flies. What the ideal percentage is idk. Personally I try for 13-18% or so. But FOC is definitely important to some degree no doubt

Awsome conversation. By the way, Easton has a chart with id and od sizes of theyre aluminum arrows that you can see what shaft will fit over your carbons.

I have been REALLY shooting for 3-4 years now and you guys had me for most of this chat . I'm shooting 374 grain arrow at 25.5 draw on 70 , 75 lbs bow I don't hunt so some or most of this will not affect me . 3-D and target , arrow flight all over it I'm still playing with arrow set up and enjoying it and taking all the info in and trying different things . Now I did get Kinetic Pearce Platinum's and they are truly a hunting arrow I get 80% pass right to the fletching's or pass through so for my use TO MUCH FOC . REALLY GOOD video you guy's are cool And snow dose SUCK we have just over 2' but we are warming up so it's dropping . But if you miss your arrow is GONE TILL SPRING may be that's why Canadian's shoot so well and carefully ??????????

I went from about 9% foc to 14% on the same arrows and am getting tremendously better penetration. It matters. The physics of Dr. Ashby's research are universal. People just take them out of context. The reports just prove what matters. They don't tell you that you have to build a 650+ grain 20+% foc arrow to shoot a deer. People just need to know the tradeoff's. In the gun world we all pick our poison for the game. The same can be done with arrow builds.

This was great, I feel like you guys could do four more hours though..

Great video. Nice to see both of you on the same subject!

I have a 29 inch draw length shooting a 65 pound draw using a 400 grain TOTAL weight 350 spine victory vap arrow and have never once NOT got a full pass through on a whitetail deer or black bear and I am only using a 100 grain Muzzy three blade broadhead with the chisel tip. And they both pile up and drop within 30 to 50 yards .

Another great video. Search "Randy Ulmer on arrows". In a 1:20 minute video, he assigns some weight to FOC (pun intended) and details the whys and wherefores for his decision to add additional weight to the front of the arrow. I give considerable deference to Dr. Ulmer due to his uncommon success as a target archer and bow hunter. Additionally, I would give the arrow a greater percentage than the bow in any equation summing the parts of archery - the shooter and his/her release quality gets a very high percentage in my mind.

Informative and extremely funny. Very good episode

Brandon, I'm with you. I've been on an elk hunting journey of my own and have ended-up at the $60 on arrow mark. But when I connect, they don't give me the old familiar, "my sister can hit harder than that" look any more.

90% of Archery 🏹 is mental, the other half is physical...Yogi Berra 🐻 !!

I agree with Nate’s overall outlook , however that FOC defiantly matters at impact and in flight . It is more important than he gave it credit .

Great video. Keep them coming......

I understand the logic someone would have in suggesting that reducing the diameter of a shaft would enable it to flex easier, however I fail to see how it relates to arrow spine beyond the manufacturing process considering that spine is a rating based on a measurement of deflection. As far as I'm concerned, 2 shafts of identical spine but different diameters should be within the same bend tolerance, particularly if they're from the same manufacturer.

I'm currently shooting a spaghetti noodle with sharpened rolling pin on the front with a F.o.C. of 92%. This F.o.C. thing has gotten so out of control...ha. But if you've been shooting for some time, (just like the skinny tie), it comes back around again. Every elk I've shot has been with a 100 gr head (IronWill and KillZone) and a Easton 4mm either FMJ Injection or straight up Carbon Injection.....all pass throughs. Everyone will have a story and an experience but proof is in the freezer.

Great content, gentlemen!

I would love to see more of these type of videos about arrows and just educating people. Learned a bunch, very helpful, thank you. Can you go over your equipment you use to build your arrows?

it must be said that Troy has always said that you may be able to get two different tip weights/FOC's to fly dead straight out of the bow and that if the 200g tip flies like a laser, then there's no need generally to keep going heavier - stop, you found it.

I agree 100% with the ranch fairy on FOC and cut on contact broadheads . I also agree with what you came up with in this video . As far as I can tell you're preaching the same thing, arrow flight is key, cut on contact broadheads are key and 475 to 550 grain arrows for medium size game. Troy only goes bigger for big hogs. My arrows are around 520 gr easton axis 5mm lighted nocks foc of 17% and they fly like darts at 28.5 in draw 70lbs. I would be comfortable shooting deer , elk , black beer size game with this setup to 30 yards on the bigger stuff. Bonus my bow is so quiet shooting this heavier arrow. Great video and you are MF ing Hilarious !

Now we are talking skijoring now? LOL!! Great show! Gimmy those 2216's and a thunderhead any day!!

Well that was cool. Im somewhere in the middle i suppose. Vaps with their new insert/outsert have held up awesome for me. I get around 15 percent foc with an oal weight of 460 grains.

Wait...his name isn’t ‘jack?”

So, I shoot a (I bought it new) Mathews switchback XT, and shoot Easton axis arrows. I was getting low on arrows, and went to my archery shop, and he happened to still have 2 dozen of the Easton axis arrows left over(they were a newer camo pattern). He sold them to me at a discounted price, to get rid of them. So my question is, why do guys like me, scare you? I use to not really shoot part about 40 yards, but I went on my first elk hunt last year, and started growing my distance. Only got up to 60 yards, feeling very comfortable, but plan on getting out to 100 this year. But I don’t plan on ever try to shooting anything past 60. I just figured that practicing from further out, will make me more comfortable at closer distances.

Long time no chat! Hello my cyber friend(s)...LOVED this video! I am always an engineer first, and plan for the worst, hence loved jumping on the HFOC bandwagon from the 1st day I saw it...just made sense to me (after losing 2 deer in my youth with "charted" arrows). Also I would love to remind Ya'll that FOC is #3 on the Ashby report...behind integrity and flight...You're preaching to the choir. Maybe alter your "tune" to better educate the yung'unz (or offer a specific video lineup) for beginners. I, for one, had a bit of a time learning the HFOC process from "just" RF videos (whilst learning how to be a bow mechanic at the same time). I think between the two of yinz guys, ya'll can figure out a way to teach the masses in a clear concise method. More collaboration, in an outline form, with respect to cost/draw weight/draw length/finger vs release/gpp for trad vs modern...should I go on? I digress, but am serious that I believe you 2 are better teachers than RF, however, would not make a big deal about #3 on the Ashby report, only to what the impact is on downrange flight characteristics, impact on dense bone, and sight picture...and put it in a "let you decide" manner. My 2 cents...PEACE! psst..BRANDON, still waiting for you to make a "meat puppet" video...

Firstly love this format and both your contrasting styles. I agree with most points. However I think the best way to approach this is prioritizing the points that you made. To this point grains per pound is misleading due to draw length. vanedge and diameter are critical to flight over 50. So to prioritize first is application due to distance ie how far do you want to shoot, size of game, shot angles, broadhead choice, etc. If less than 50 I think foc, vanedge, diameter is not important. If trying to KILL something over 45 yards then IMO foc matters ONLY if you can meet Your min speed IMO is 275 which is a function of draw weight and length. flight and durability are the first and second priority. Foc is helpful over 19% assuming the min speed, flight and durability are not compromised. If you can get greater than 19% foc with good durability and perfect flight at your target speed then IMO this is the ideal scenario. It helps because it helps paradox on both ends of the shot, heavier weight carries flatter over distance and quieter, penetration, reduced fletch is flatter for flight and resistance to wind, more durable. Just my .2

I'm pretty sure Darrell Barnet proved how important FOC is by breaking down the science of how an arrow actually flies. The father apart you can get the center of gravity and center of pressure the better the arrow will fly went sent out of a properly tuned bow. It's all complete system in the long run everything has to be tuned and if a slightly lighter arrow flies better then shoot the lighter arrow. It's scary how many people only seem hear one side of lessons being taught and backed by science.

Does anybody know if there are lighted nocks for the Easton uni bushing, 2315? I'm currently using green micro nocks.

Elk river archery sells aluminum footers for a good price, a friend of mine borrowed some arrows that had those colors and that hit insert system. Shot one directly into his gravel driveway I threw it on a spinner and it looked perfect. Well it looked perfect after I put a new Field point on it. Those calors definitely help

I’ve shot fix blades forever except half of 1 season I shot a big brand mechanical and hated it and went back to my slicktricks.. that said if always got my arrow light and fast idk just my cup of tea… anyway gr8 video y’all!

Foc is great for people who is trying to sell you stuff. All these crazy heavy arrows blow my mind. I’ve killed a lot of deer with under 400 grain arrow. With heavy arrows you have to be so spot on with yardages. Yes I carry a rangefinder but at my draw length three yards off can be a miss which is ridiculous with today’s technology. I build arrows for speed what ever weight allows me to be in that 280 FPS so be it. I refuse to miss deer at 30 yards cause I was off a yard and the deer reacted. Lost way more animals by them ducking or reacting and not being where they were when I shot then I needed 20% foc with a 600 grain arrow.

Great vid guys!!👍 I have a question, and a statement. For whitetail and same size animals, wouldn't you rather have 10 inches of a 3 inch hole made from a mechanical rather a 1.25 in. Fixed with 2 holes that barely bleed?!.

Spine is stiffened when you reduce draw weight shorten arrow length and reduce point weight