Spot on. I agree. Im a residential contractor in Oregon. 51 years a carpenter Everything is built with Douglas firr here. We do use spruce for exterior trim and facia. But its kiln dried. Port Orford ceder is hard to come by for us also. Its very pricy but gorgeous. Its structurally adequate for outside stained open beam patios cielings and gazebos and interior non structural open beam ceilings. I wouldnt use it for an interior structural beam. Douglas firr is a far superior product. But I love Port Orford cedar for exterior use. IT NEVER ROTS. It might turn grey with weather, but that gives you a patina look. Stay productive my friends.

Thank you for the explanation along with the illustrations about boxed heart timbers. I've read it again and again but I finally understand both the terms and the benefits/drawbacks of it

Good info. I've done a bit of research into the old eastern white pine construction, and part of the reason old stuff is so prized/resilient (in many cases, still standing and looking fine 200+ years later) is for a couple of key reasons. Old growth trees are denser than new growth, even for trees of the same size. That's well understood. Another aspect is how lumber was processed/dried centuries ago vs. how it is processed and dried to today. I read about pumpkin pine flooring, which is made by cutting and stacking eastern white pine flooring and packing it in straw for decades, re-stacking and refreshing the straw every few years. Sometimes this flooring would only be installed 50+ years after it was first cut. That insured the wood was incredibly stable in changing humidity, as pine pitch takes much longer to dry/cure/stabilize than simply kiln-drying can accomplish. That's just one example of the time between cutting and construction that led to less wood movement after construction - in a stronger lumber to begin with. Today we have a very efficient tree-to-lumber process, which is kind of insanely hectic. It's too fast. So we're not getting the best out of lumber that's already not quite as good as the lumber used in older construction that we might compare our work to. I had some white pine cut ~7 years ago. I rented a portable sawmill and cut it up, and then stacked it outside for a season. Then I restacked and stickered it in a humidity controlled basement for two years. I then re-stacked it again, removing the stickers. I'm now using the lumber and finding that it's remarkably stable compared to stuff you buy off the shelf. That's because it's been drying for ~6 years longer than almost anything you can find in a box store.... Something to keep in mind. You can do great things with this "lesser" wood if you have time.

thanks so much ! I'm having a Timber Frame built on a little acre i have in the woods. such great information !

Very informative. Great video.

Thank you for posting this video ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

This has to be area-specific. It’s all well and good to list those choices when you’re based in the northwest, but they can be (and are) prohibitedly expensive when you’re 3000 miles away. “Weak” woods like eastern white pine can make fine frames if they are sized for the loads they will carry.

That last part of this video was so calming. I love this guy!

I met this guy in person. I used to be trucker & stopped off at his shop.

That's a pretty informative video and very resourceful for the layman out there, so - well done. I'd simply like to suggest that not all pine is created equal. Red pine would likely offer you substantially more strength in your project than white pine.

This some great information as a non full time timber framer. and as someone who lives in an area that is predominantly Hemlock country - I agree with everything he says here.

Koreans considered "Zelkova serrata" to be the best wood for traditional timber framing, but those became extremely rare, especially tall and straight specimen. Therefore mostly several different Pine species were used for timber frame buildings, until recently. Now days, mostly Doug Fir imported from USA and Canada are used for building traditional timber frame in Korea.

Interesting take. I work at a Grist mill museum that was built 150 years ago. It was all framed with Eastern Hemlock. It is right on the water, so always high humidity. Was left entirely abandoned for almost 20 years and has had many leaks. It's main frame has had no work done to it. only the stilts that support it from the river bed below. I would not discount Eastern Hemlock. Also interesting as the Shelter Institute seems to prefer White Pine and also uses Hemlock.

Mr. Timber Frame, thank you for your in-depth analysis. I am building my last to-die-in home on a cool piece of property I've just purchased. I cannot justify the significant cost increase for a timber frame though I reasoned every which way under the sun, but just couldn't pull the trigger. So I am a stick building , 26 x 26 foot (interior) modified cape with structural timber f. 2nd floor, floor joist 24" OC. The main carrying beam is offset to where I need (roughly) 15 and 13 footers. As you stated, northeast US is white pine country. What should the dimensions be for these floor joists? I can't find any charts telling me what a 7"x9" or a 6"x10" white pine beam will span? If you have the time to answer I'll thank you in advance.

This video is a perfect example of why you shouldn't believe everything you hear on the internet! There have been far more timber frames built of white pine, red spruce, or eastern hemlock than will ever be built of Doug fir. Sure, Doug fir is very strong in bending and available in large sizes and free of heart, but its tension perpendicular to the grain is low, about that of white pine. Which, combined with its difficulty to work, means it isn't great for joinery, and joinery is the hallmark of any good timber frame.

Learning every bit I can...thanks

In Australia there are some prime timber trees. The "Silver Ash", which goes grey but has a metallic sheen to die for. Tasmanian "Huon Pine" that resists insects and never rots. Native Jarrah and Cedar are beautiful.

I have a 36 foot long beam 4X10 that the roof for this wing of my house sits upon and it rotted. I ended up getting cedar but that was at the height of pandemic and a 4X10 16 feet long each were $1,200 at Home Depot. I called a mill out in Mendocino County which had redwood and those beams were $55 per linear foot delivered. Just a few bucks under $2,000 and I would have bought it but the delivery time was too long. No question in my mind that it is by far the superior choice though, especially since the beams in question are outside and exposed to the air. Meaning dinner for termite swarms. I have never seen redwood that got damaged by termites, it is like they cannot eat it. But then I am from far northern coastal California only a few miles from Oregon, redwood used to be cheap till they took every stick of old growth that was not protected in parks. Port Orford cedar also is high on my list of woods for timers. I have been to Port Orford, I call it Moose Snout for the movie Overboard, it really looks like that. I would die of boredom in a month.

Hello. I have an old Christmas tree farm with mostly "Abies" species here in Oregon. I have Doug Fir too however they are not mature enough for timber harvest, nor would it be environmentally sound at the current state. Most Abies species are 1' - 2' in diameter at the base. I am doing restoration work on my property so there is a lot of thinning of Abies spices. I was wondering what might be the best recommended use for Grand Fir, Concolor, and a few Noble Firs?

Interesting! ✨

Anyone have experince working with Brich for timber framing? What did you think? Thanks!

It's a helluva thing...I'd seen this video several months ago, forgot all about it, then on a trip to Olympic National Park I saw your building and didn't know why I'd recognized it until I just watched the video again. Thanks for the free advice. Since I live in an area with a seemingly endless supply of western juniper, I was wondering about the characteristics. Perhaps you've worked with it before?

I have Sassafras and Black Walnut and red oaks, and white and swamp white oak. Red Maples, and Cherry. I’m building livestock structures with no foundation. Will the Sass, Walnut, and Oak be ok for the posts? I have a precious few harvestable Junipers, should I use these for the main posts over oaks?

Eastern White Pine is second to Douglas Fir in timber framing. Not sure how this was missed. EWP has been used for hundreds of years for timber framing, log cabins, and ship masts.

Is chestnut good for timber framing? its what im planning to use as I have a good amount of it growing.

Ty great vdo

Eastern white Pine is actually a GREAT species for framing, been used for hundred of years in new england, not the same as pitch pine which has all that SAP...

Have you every used Japanese Cedar (Sugi, or Hinoki) from Japan? Timbers, Beam and dimensional items. Curious how they would fit into your species analysis. Thanks for the excellent video.

What about Alaskan birch? Thinking about using it. It’s pretty knotty

What's your opinion on black locust for framing?

Good info,thanks. How about mixing species? I have mostly cedar but some Doug fir and oak. I also have white fir.

A decade or two back they planted Doug Fir heavily in the South island of New Zealand. There's now loads of it and as cheap as pine. I want to build a Post and Beam house down here but its not been done since the earlier 1900s, went out of fad. So much so its been a real chore to find building standards for a Post and Beam style. My fav Tudor and 17th century styles, English, French and German with exposed post and beam. A builder Fearnley construction recently did a big truss with peg mortise. ""Considering the unique nature of these trusses, test joints were submitted for extensive testing in Canterbury University to ensure they met New Zealand standards. Far exceeding all expectations, the results of this type of construction proved how durable and widely used this traditional building technique can be. The design, testing, construction, and drying of these trusses spanned a 12-month time frame."" Gives you an idea of how little its used down here.

What about eastern aromatic cedar for smaller lengths and thicknesses?

Not me with 2 acres of perfectly straight, 40-50' Norway Spruce trees (failed Christmas tree farm from two decades ago), hoping I could use in a timber frame project... 🤣

This was a great video thank you very much. I was wondering why you didn't mention Larch? We have a plantation of Larch we are using for all our frames and so far so good what's your thoughts as it's super durable

I’m a big fan of white oak for its structural properties and rugged good looks but honestly thought 💭 what about laminated versions?!?! Pros and cons to laminate oak beams?!?! Thanks in advance

I’m planning to build a covered patio which will be anchored to an existing structure; a gable end of my home. The spans will be as much as 25’ -27’ for the ledger and ridge beam and 23’ wide for the trusses. It will be open air like a pavilion and built in the northwest Wisconsin climate. I would like to minimize posts to the outermost corners and have one gable king and two interior common trusses. Considering that I want to stain it fairly dark, have a minimalist look, keep cost low, and meet engineering requirements for such a structure, which species will be my best option and what sized would I need to order?

Help me out everyone. I live in Colorado, what makes the most sense to use for my area. Front range North of Denver area.

How does River Birch work for framing?

I was a bit surprised to hear your take on spruce. The longitudinal shrinkage is actually less on spruce than on oak for example. At least here in Sweden. Regardless of that, the shrinkage is so insignificant (0,3 %) that it shouldnt be a problem. Do you have any data to refer to? It would be interesting to see. Thanks for a good video nonetheless!

Is Douglas fir the same as Western/rustic fir?

I worked for a timber frame builder here in PA. We used only white oak (never red), Southern Yellow Pine or Douglas Fir. Occasionally cedar for a special order. But the family wants to build a small cabin, and the abundance of hemlock in the area will probably force us to go in that direction. Tulip poplar was good enough for the barn that my father built, so I'm not concerned with hemlock.

were i live there is lots of poplar on my land i have done research that says poplar is good to build with do you think the same because im in the process of buying building my family a home and for me cost affective is what im after i live southern WV i have really good access to my trees thanks for your time and plan on watching way more of your channel

I have some land where the previous owner logged some Doug Fir trees. I think the logs have been sitting for about a year. Wondering if I should mill them into beams or something else?

I'm curious to know your thoughts on Western Larch. It seems to be a real straight grained wood with minimal knots. Have you ever used it and would you recommend it!

Any thoughts on Ash? It grows big and straight for sure. How is it for strength, shrinkage and such?

I've always dreamed of a timber framed house but I'm not sure it'd be possible to get logs big enough for heart free wood where I live. ( island of Newfoundland in eastern Canada) I'd only do it if I could harvest locally myself. Excluding the woods you said were no good. My options are balsam fir, trembling aspen, tamarack, maybe red maple, paper or mountain birch. Maybe golden birch if i could find enough. Any thoughts?

What about other kinds of fir? We have a lot of noble fir as our land was previously planted for tree boughs. I know it's not a durable wood good for outdoor use, but have you ever used it in a timber frame?

If the timber goes through a kiln will that reduce the shrinkage factor much?

In the deep south of the USA is a wood with density, strength and hardness of oak. By the way there is a significant difference between white and red oak. Tons of oak in the Carolinas on which you could comment as to water ingress. But, back to that super strength wood upon which I opened this comment... yellow pine folks. Not white pine or loblolly but yellow. Please take a moment and comment, for I have seen some masterful and ancient structures still standing and am a user myself. I kindly await your reply.

whats your thoughts on sugar maple or black cherry?

Opening with a blanket statement that pine is bad for timber framing seems off the mark. As far as I am concerned eastern white pine is gods gift to timber framers. (I think Jack Sobon said that to me, I shouldn't take credit for the statement). Strength to weight ratio, shrinkage characteristics and workability is great. I have experienced at least as many issues with sap using Redwood as EWP. You just have to get good timbers from a good sawyer. Hemlock is pretty good too. It does twist some but good joinery decisions can account for that. The expense of the woods that you suggest here are prohibitive if you are working in the northeast. EWP and Hemlock are absolutely the way to go here. As an asside, earlier in the comments someone mentioned red pine as a possible useful wood for timber framing and I would make an argument against that. I was involved in a project using red pine in which we had to drastically adjust the housings meant to receive tenoned ends of timbers because they had twisted so much in just days after we cut the joinery. It came out fine but was a pain in the ass to cut funky angled housings and mortises.

Can ypu comment on the use of Poplar or send a link to a resource?

Can you use a little mixture of different trees for framing?

Which wood do you suggest using in Texas or southeast?

I wonder if cypress would work

I don't like hemlock. A company I was working for was using it to replace sills in an old house and there was so much ring shake in the hemlock we used, I wondered how they even passed it off as structurally sound lumber!

Thanks for sharing your experience, but aside from oak and douglas-fir, I couldn't agree with most of your conclusions.

I was just reading Jack Sobon and Roger Schroeder, and they say the red eastern spruce is a good choice for timber framing. But here it's your first worst species. Can you help me understand the difference of opinion here? I live in the north east BTW, and they seem to refer to this region most in the book.

Ha! In my entire state there are only the trees you've listed as bad for building! I'm sure logs are trucked into colorado because all we have are firs, spruces, pines, and cottonwoods. I've always wanted to mill my own logs though

@Timber Frame Design & Build Channel Quick Quesiton! :) My father owns a guitar factory and we have so many leftover 4"x4"x90" Mahogany Billets. Could you/should/would you ever frame with those? Especially because I can get them dirt cheap? Thank you so much :)

What about cypress?

black locust is great!

Can you use ash

What about Pavlownia?

Gunna have to disagree with you on pine. I understand you're lumping all pines together probably for times sake (and im pretty sure you're on the west coast and likely referring to your own species of pine) but eastern white pine specifically is a very good timber for timber framing and log building. Most of our timber frame and log builds up here in Central and Eastern Canada are eastern white pine. Would one use red pine? Absolutely not, but eastern white pine isn't comparable to other species.

I've used hemlock in WV for frames 30 years. My biggest concern is 1st or 2nd log and where it grew. I want trees from hollows and lower land blocked from wind. Wind shake is a problem on high ground. With hemlock I want boxed heart. Big logs and boxed heart. Hemlock sets pitch quickly at ambient Temps. Stable and very hard in 3-6 months. So nasty hard, bugs don't like it. Our local boring bees don't even like it after 6 months. They will eat up Doug fir.

No mention of larch

It's interesting to see the difference and similarities between cultures.

Is it safe to assume that any trees he did not cover cannot be used in timber framing? Trees such as Tulip poplar, Empress trees or Black gum.

What about Ash?

I have a hemlock front porch 20 years now and I have hated it that long to. long story I want to start over everything on this land.

Well... unfortunately, Pine is all we've got down here in Dump Hole New Orleans. I've been using it over 30 years. I hate it, but it seems to do the job. Tell 'em to ship some good lumber to "Toilet Bowl Orleans." Thanks

Would Yellow Pine be a suitable wood?

What ever trees Home Depot gets it’s lumber from must be shaped like curly fries.

How is cypress

Hemlock is terrible , I've found that the grain is very twisting , I don't even like using it for my 1x siding .

What about ash?

Southern yellow pine is stronger than doug fir. I'm very much confused by your research.

How about tulip Poplar?

What about poplar?

Have you ever used yellow poplar, aka tulip poplar?

I find it interesting that many of the comments say that poplar is a bad choice and will rot, which is only partially true. There are many examples that prove it can last for century's outdoors. It is a misconception to state that it simply will not. Wood rots from bad building practices that allow it to repeatedly get wet, not allowing it to dry, and from using immature trees.... Poplar was the most used wood for construction in the US until the early 20th century for a reason. It was plentiful, and with older trees the wood is rot and insect resistant. They knew to not use the core of the tree, or small trees, which are primarily white sap wood that will rot in a matter of years. Large trees are almost entirely well established sapwood, which wont rot.... You are not going to find that poplar at Home Depot... You will have to buy land with poplars on it, then harvest them when the trees are mature. Most poplars are harvested at less than 20 years, and that will rot... Let it grow to maturity (34-72 inch diameter, 40 to 50 years minimum), and it will not rot for century's.

Doug Fir ++++

Im confused, because other reputable builders say white pine is one of the better woods.

Good info but please look at the camera when presenting. Why has this trend continued when it was just a fashionable annoyance in the beginning? Otherwise a good video

Why did they use spruce for airplanes then? Even when we were sawing in the 50s and 60s if we got nice knot-free street spruce we sold it at a premium as aircraft spruce!

you are out west right let me tell you long strait oak logs are not hard to find or get you just need to order them from phio and naboring states it is common to see oak trees 40 plus feet tall and strait you look plenty big enuff for tember framing avoid read oak species ues white oak instead. try locast trees it is harder to work with but it is rot restint. you want treas grade f`1 standing tember. most building supply place get c grade lumber.

17 year old timber frame home here in Maine. Hemlock is TOTALLY strong enough structurally. Don't know why he would be iffy about it. Oh, maybe because he's from VANCOUVER.

So as far as conifers go you like west coast species and hate east coast species. I also beleve that you're comparing white pine and not southern yellow pine which most engineering charts show to be stronger then douglas fir

The best oak forest in the world is Tronçais (France). High; strait and clean fibre. It has been planted by Colbert (prime minister of king Louis XIV) for the french navy. It's used today for the barels of Bordeaux.

lol... stay away from spruce and pine?!

I started with Woodglut plans.

Southern yellow pine has about as much structural strength as oak

Don't like this new way of filming - where the speaker is not looking at the camera!!

muhhahah

The list of issues with this video is too numerous to effectively list...Suffice it to say history within the craft DOES NOT support much of what is shared here but the producer did state it was only "their opinion" I can share after 50 years of practice and global travel studying the empirical and historical "folk styles" of this craft, as well as designing, constructing and historic restoration within the craft that much of this video is either untrue or inaccurate at best...and that is not an "opinion" but observed over decades and millennia within the current architecture of the world globally within timber architecture...

Wrongo! White pine is an excellent choice doesn't move much, easy to work and stronger than cedar. White pine is one of the preferred woods for timber construction in the east.

I think i'm going to frame my house in all black walnut. Then cover it all with drywall.

Knots are where trees grew branches, and these are areas where the tree strengthened itself. Knotty softwood is stronger than clear. Hemlock has been successfully used for centuries to build barns and buildings here in Pennsylvania, and is still being used. Sorry, but downvoted video.