To me, the difference between the “overly competent character” (a trope I kind of like) and “Mary Sue” is that other characters’ motivations are warped around Mary Sues, and therefore they damage the believability of other characters. Rey making Finn completely 180 on his goals and being immediately accepted by Han is a Mary Sue, compared to Luke being somewhat dismissed and disliked by Han at the beginning makes him an overly competent character instead. I still like Rey, but I don’t like Finn because his personality is warped around Rey in a way that makes no sense. That is my problem with Mary Sues, they damage other characters.

Rey is the definition of "super easy...barely an inconvenience"

Mary Sue to me is more about how the world wraps around the character without negative consequences. Similar to chosen ones but lacking a reason to be that important. There is the aspect of flaws but I think that it is more important that character messed up. Blunt/clumsy/angry is not a flaw if there isn't a downside to that trait.

When the Force Awakens first came out I remember telling to a couple of college friends about how I didn't like how Rei was so good at everything - and this was before I knew the term Mary Sue. My friend, who enjoyed the movie, commented, "Oh yeah, I forget how extra critical you are of movies...."

Rand Al’Thor is another great example of an extremely powerful character who is nowhere close to a Mary Sue

I think whether a good character can come from the trope depends on your definition of a Mary Sue. A character can be overly competent, have a great reputation and be beloved by many who they meet, may even be part of a power fantasy for the author/audience, yet if they have human flaws and characteristics and characters are not afraid to talk negatively about/to them if the situation calls for it, they can still become a beloved character (Harry Potter being an example of this).

Star wars episode 1: Anakin too weak to fight Maul, episode 2: loses to Dooku, episode 3: beats dooku, episode 4: Luke too weak to fight Vader, episode 5: Luke loses to Vader, episode 6: Luke beats Vader (and loses to Palpatine but Vader beats Palpatine), episode 7 Rey beats Kylo, episode 8 Rey works with Kylo to beat Snoke, episode 9: Rey beats Kylo, then works with him tk beat Palpatine

Great commentary on the trope. Thank you! Its something I think on often, and deeply. It took me several major changes to one character in an upcoming novel to "un-Mary-Sue" him. First by making him the side character to a new main. And then switching him to be the younger sister, instead of brother. I needed the character to remain, but also need to provide the opportunity for them to grow away from being (in earlier versions of the stories) a stand-in for a younger version of me. It was worth the work. And taking that extra time to make a character more realistic is worth an author's investment.

I haven't read a lot of fantasy fiction (Star Wars notwithstanding), but by chance I did read "The Name of the Wind" - I finished the book and told the guy who recommended it to me that the character was too much of a Mary Sue for me. He said if I thought the character was a Mary Sue in the first book then maybe I wouldn't enjoy the later books. (I didn't continue the series). Anyway, you put yourself on the side of Rey as Mary Sue, so here's a like and a subscribe.

Yey! I'm so glad this video is finally here!!! Super excited to watch this, shortly, and hear more of your thoughts on this particular subject!! ^-^

I think one thing that can stop a flawless character from being a Mary Sue is that they might not have flaws but atleast they have shortcomings i.e. they might be best a everything they can do, but they still can't do many things and have to rely on others for that. Also, I think one more way a character can be a Mary Sue is if they have flaws that the audience can clearly see but the story/other characters simply refuse to acknowledge them effectively making the character flawless in universe. By that I mean that other characters in the story just don't register these flaws and the story never gives them any bad consequences because of the flaws, so even the story is blind to the flaw. Infact they are often praised for and rewarded by the plot for them. That also pisses the audience more because it shows the hand of the author and brings out their agenda. Best example I can think of is Iron man and Captain Marvel in MCU, both are (imo) arrogant characters but where as many characters and even the story see that as a flaw in Iron man, that's not the case with Captain Marvel. So, in her case even if she has that flaw the universe refuses to acknowledge it as such.

Dirk Pitt from Clive Cussler is a Mary Sue. He is great at everything he does. No personality flaws, ladies man (even though he is married) and is smarter than the bad guys.

4:25 Also, Anakin is consistently portrayed as very competent and skilled, but also very impulsive and reckless. Sure, some of the time he tries something crazy and that solves everything because he's that good, but other times he loses an arm to Dooku for that

Great video. Very well presented and your thoughts on the topic are very clear and established in a 10 min video. Now for the topic in question. I think some characters are unfairly called mary-sue but alot of others are very much deserved. The problem is that the writers I think real just want to take too many short cuts when there didn't need to be cuts character development. Let's take for example Ray at the end of Force Awaken was more at the end of her character arc and skill sets for that whole trilogy than at the beginning. Threw out Luke and Anakin's trilogies you can visibly see the difference in skills and character development. There was a reason why George didn't have both of them in a light saber duel at the end of their first films. But now days writers and directors want to skip straight to the end results like say skipping Sarah Conner from T1 and going straight to how she was halfway through T2. It is really hard to do that and your story will suffer because of it. I have more to say on this topic, but I think I'll stop here. And again good video.

Look to Arcane for good characters/tropes that happen to be women.

There's a scene that stands out for me regarding Kvothe. It's when he gets poisoned with something that completely takes away his ability to tell right from wrong. He's left alone with a female friend (she's a gorgeous sex bomb like all the women in the duology), gets horny af but muses something like "even under the influence I knew not to sexually assault her because that would be super wrong". Because Kvothe is so special and great! Did Rothfuss write the scene just to once again show how awesome Kvothe is? I mean I obviously don't want him to do it but Rothfuss could've written it much less Sue esque. (I still really enjoy his books though) Love the Kaladin comparison. AND FOR MY BOON

Super video as always 🙂🙂🙂 oh, love the thumbnail too!!! 😄

I could write an entire essay about this, but I'll try to keep my comments short(ish). Normally I hate when "Mary Sue" gets used in media criticism because, as you say, there's no one agreed-upon definition of the term, which leads to it being applied very liberally. That said, if the "Sue" fits... To me, the most recent character that embodies a Mary Sue is Egwene (specifically the TV version, not the books). 1. Other characters tell us how Awesome and Pure she is. When others are upset with her, /they/ are depicted as in the wrong, even if they should have good reason for their feelings. 2. Lack of consequences. Perrin kills his wife and stares into space for an entire season, but Egwene kills a Whitecloak and has no lasting emotional response. Yes, there should be an emotional difference between killing your wife and killing someone threatening/torturing you and your friend, but the way Perrin and Egwene are set up, it makes at least as much sense for Egwene to have an identity crisis, but she doesn't. What she did was just "right." 3. Egwene has so much power. Powerful channeler (which is true to the books, so I can't fault the show there). Ta'veren. (I know you already addressed how making her ta'veren takes away from her agency, but it will also cause problems for her character later in the series). She's not only a candidate for the Dragon Reborn but THE person Moiraine and Rand believe is the Dragon Reborn. She apparently resurrects Nynaeve through the power of her magic tears, even though healing is supposed to be Nynaeve's thing, not Egwene's. 4. Other characters' successes from the books are handed to Egwene in the show. Even in the rare instance where an Egwene scene from the books is given to someone else, that scene still ends up being about Egwene. 4. Egwene is desired by many and now is the centre of a love triangle. 5. Egwene isn't an author insert, but from what I've seen in interviews, she appears to be Rafe Judkins' favourite character. So, maybe it's fair to say she's author-insert adjacent. 6. As an adaptation, if we stretch, the TV show could almost be considered fanfiction. Anyway, tl;dr: TV Egwene is one of the few characters I readily feel has earned her Mary Sue title.

Funny thing is the Disney trilogy Rey didn’t lose her hand or face any consequences of her actions that my issue with Rey no one call her out about her actions.

This video actually educated me on the ‘Mary Sue’ trope, so thanks for the info! I definitely agree on those takes! I’m interested because you brought up Kaladin, who I definitely don’t think is a Mary Sue, but what about Jasnah? I know she isn’t playing the most front role now so maybe it’s hard to tell if she is a Mary Sue or if that’s a negative for her character but I think there is an argument she could fall into that category

I would say that Rothfuss *is* intentionally setting up Kvothe as an unreliable narrator--Bast is the one who gives it away. It's been a few years since I read it, but I remember that yells at Chronicler at one point, and he strongly suggests that Kvothe is either lying or just wrong about a whole lot of his story. Bast also gets annoyed at Kvothe a couple of times, and he basically says, "Look I don't care about all the harmless stuff you're making up, but don't act flippant about something so serious." The one time I remember specifically is when Kvothe claims to have talked to the evil tree fae, but I think Bast says similar things other times. That said, if Kvothe is coming off as an unlikeable Mary Sue, the text still isn't accomplishing what it's supposed to. You're supposed to get caught up in the story, flipping pages like, "This is so cool!" but then the reality that he can't be telling the truth slowly sinks in. It works that way for some people, but when it doesn't, it tends to really fall flat.

THANK YOU, finally someone agrees Rey is a model Mary Sue without adding a bunch of "woke feminist agenda" buzzwords. It's annoying how a lot of people defend her simply to counter those types. She's a one-dimensional character (like most others in the sequel trilogy) with no real character flaws (a sob backstory and not believing in your awesomeness enough aren't flaws), added to an existing canon and immediately loved by every established character (and every new one, including the main villain!), who has everything handed to her with minimal effort by the story. It's not misogyny to acknowledge this is the very definition of a Mary Sue.

Personally, I think a Mary Sue character is lazy characterization but it doesn’t always ruin a story for me. It does bother me that female characters are criticized more often for being Mary Sues where as the male versions can get a free pass.

1:55 Same, or sometimes I'll see "Gary Stu"

The 'Mary Sue' or 'Gary Stu' (a male Mary Sue basically though the first term I think can be used for everyone) is a term that gets thrown a lot. Personally, I like to create some important points that a character needs to have for me to consider the a Mary Sue -For me, a work where a Mary Sue happen doesn't have a normal plot, in the sense that it is not that the character tried to adapt to the world or the events around them but instead is the plot that tried that the character has the easiest war possible to get what they want. A Mary Sue can break the previously established rules of their world if it is for their benefit, but other characters can't do that -A Mary Sue is someone who is always right. And this statement is taken to the extreme. It is not only that the character has the 'right' ideology but also that everyone that disagrees with them either changed their opinion in a sort of 'redemption' or it's just a villain. A Mary Sue will never act wrong and, because of that, there are no characters that can get angry with them because they have not done anything wrong. A character can be "pure of heart" and not be a Mary Sue, because sometimes they act irresponsibly or they bother other people, but a Mary Sue will never bother someone. -Related to the first point, a Mary Sue is good at everything, and in the things that they are not good is because they have not tried it yet. They will be able to master any new ability seemingly without effort It will sound weird, but I can't think of good examples on this one. I think Annalise Keating in the late How to get away with murder seasons would be a good candidate.

Which scene from Stormlight?? I agree with your breakdown, nice video.

Mary-Sue is an unfortunately inexact term due to its origin. However, I tend to define it as a character who is exceptionally good at something without adequate explanation, such as intensive training or some sort of special birth/magical or scientific exposure/whatever. There are other aspects, but if any of the character's exceptional skills are unexplained and don't make sense without an explanation then I would categorize them as a Mary-Sue, regardless of whether they are flawed or not.

On a personal standpoint, I love The Name of the Wind (have not read The Wise Man’s Fear yet) because Rothfuss is a really good writer and the story was beautiful. With that said, the amount of times in which Kvothe did something that made me go “That’s unrealistic” was great indeed. My wife, who read the book at the same time, liked the story but was put off by the Marysuesqueness of the book. So yeah…

Rey I think qualifies because she didn't really face much adversity. She tries something and immediately succeeds. As far as Kvothe, I've only Name of the Wind, so am unfamiliar with the other piece you mentioned. He is still extremely capable, but he faces seemingly overwhelming adversity where ever he goes. He does eventually succeed, but at great effort and sometimes cost. I do like your idea that he is doing this for creative license to build his own myth.

The KZfaqr Jessie Gender made a similar video about the Mary Sue trope where she says Mary Sues aren't inherently bad but more of a tool that the writers use. Examples she used involved James Bond where he's a Mary Sue because he can get any girl he wants and sufgers no internal flaws but he's a type of wishfulment character we can want to see and can still enjoy when the writing is good. Another example is how Mary Sues can be used to show that while the characters are perfect the societies around them are not. Example involves Ned Stark he's the type of character that someone in the Game of Thrones should be; he's honorable, he accepted Jon Snow and so-called bastard as his son having honor be tarnished and mocked, always trues to do the right thing and gives hus enemies warnings that he's hoing to revolt against them in hopes that they will try to the right thing and become better people. But it's hus honor that gets him killed because everyone in the Game of Thrones world is only concerned about this showcases why Ned Stark is the idealistic character for a world such as Game of Thrones. I wish I could link you Jessie's video but KZfaq eill just take it down so I strongly suggest you watch. You might enjoy it or learn something new

For Kvothe I don't see him as a Mary Sue. I've always seen him this way: In a world where memory, intellect and concentration are super powers he's basically Sheldon Cooper. He has an eidetic memory in a world where memory is a super power. He has a massive ego in a world where sheer willpower in one's own belief (to create links) is the key to making the magic system work. Of course he's gonna be good at it. He's too full of himself NOT to be. Now Star Wars? That's different and the reason it's a good thing I'm not a writer. NGL if I were to write anything Star Wars related I'd Mary Sue the mess out of a character and it would be TOTAL wish fulfillment. All of a sudden from out of nowhere comes a lone duel wielding Jedi with force push/pull that rivals Luke and Yoda combined. "Why gosh Master Luke, I'd LOVE to be the new battlemaster of the Jedi Order despite the fact that I just got here!" Now that being said. . .Rey wasn't a good character. Like I said, it's a GOOD THING I'm not a writer ;)

The Name of the Wind was a mostly great read for me, and Kvothe didn't feel too much like a Mary Sue (mainly based around how he lived on the streets after his parents were murdered). That said, adult Kvothe has it way easier than he should, and he's the best at everything beyond just being a prodigy. The second half of the book is also maddeningly empty of plot development.

Thanks for pointing out the MC being a Mary Sue in Name of the Wind. I was left feeling detached from the MC at the end of the book 2 and couldn't put my finger on the reason.

"...when we read Doors of Stone..." Ah you sweet summer child... (Sorry couldn't resist) On a more serious note, I pretty much agree with all your analysis here. Rey definitely fits the trope (sadly - I had such high hopes in the beginning) and Kvothe is borderline. Kvothe is an interesting case, because I actually really like his progression in NotW and I feel his immaturity and foolishness balances out his natural talents. We see that a bit in WMF as well (his obsession with Ambrose, idiocy with Denna), but the (in my opinion) over-emphasis on his sexual prowess in the end of the book was just cringe. All the eye-rolls. That part felt over the top and forced. I do think Kvothe is a more balanced character than Rey though. Rey just...she doesn't really feel like a real character, which is a hallmark sign of a Mary Sue. Flat and one-dimensional. Still makes me sad. Also (gosh this is too long of a comment), agree with your Kaladin assessment as well. He has some great strengths but boy does he have his traumas (especially as seen in the most recent book - RoW). And yes, we all knew *exactly* what scene in WoR you were talking about...

I think the thing I hate most about the Mary Sue trope is not the trope itself, but what I see as a reaction from authors against that trope: highly powerful or skilled characters, who are either unlikable or kind of stupid (or both). I could be wrong, but it seems like some authors write characters like this because they're afraid of the Mary Sue label, so they end up (possibly subconsciously) overcompensating by giving them extra negative traits that make me, as the reader, hate the character more than I would if the character had just been a straight up Mary Sue. What's worse is when these negative traits don't even cause any real problems for the character; so they still end up being a Mary Sue, but without the one thing Mary Sue's have going for them: likability. I don't love Rey (or Mary Sue's in general) but I will take her any day over a character that is so obviously trying, and failing, to not be a Mary Sue.

The male term was gary-stu. Other then that respect going that deep in the rabbit hole.

This was an excellent breakdown of the trope. I´m really glad you included its origin and how it has shifted to give some perspective. One thing I find interesting is that apparently it is possible to write a character that superficially fits the Mary Sue mold - extremely competent at almost everything, and usually is in the right - but doesn´t feel like a Mary Sue for most people. E.g. - James Bond, movie Captain America, and Jasnah in Stormlight - all of whom are generally beloved characters despite fitting almost all characteristics of the trope. Perhaps it has to do with a typical Mary Sue character feels unbelievable and/or like their skill isn´t earned, and comes at the expense of other characters. While if you make a character that is extremely competent, but still feels believable and doesn´t steal spotlight from others, audiences are a lot more likely to enjoy them. Or at least, that is my impression. Personally, I do find some Mary Sue characters annoying (if done poorly), but I tend to be more annoyed with how often and casually the term is thrown around online, especially towards female characters. Almost to the point that in a lot of places it is starting to feel like ´character I don´t like´. So I try to avoid using it myself.

I've been involved in ST fandom since I was a teen and have never seen the term Marty Stu, only Gary! While I think Mary Sue could be used interchangeably, I don't think it generally is. I think the unfortunate perception is that women writing fanfic, especially if it's at all spicy, are probably writing wish fulfillment fantasies. If the female MC has masses of interesting hair and unusually coloured eyes, that often locks it in for people. I actually think it would be interesting for someone to write a story where the female lead has all the physical/social characteristics associated with a MS, but who 100% *isn't* one! My guess is the term would still be applied. The most egregious place I think I've seen the term used is in relation to Diana Gabaldon and her Outlander books. I was stunned to realize that there are people out there who are prepared to die on the hill that Claire is a Mary Sue. Just to be clear, I'm not one of those people. Outlander was Diana's (incredibly successful) attempt to teach herself how to write a fiction novel. That she chose Scotland and a handsome man in tartans as her male lead because she had just seen a Dr. Who episode with a tartan-wearing Scot does not automatically make anything she writes a Mary Sue. If I'm thinking about starting a story for NaNo, say, and I think, "Well, I'd like to take a road trip around the US and see a bunch of places", that does not mean my main female character is, by definition, a Mary Sue *just because the story revolves around the MC taking a road trip*! You would have to look at her physical characteristics, her skills and abilities, her likes and dislikes, and a whole lot more before you could (fairly) make that assumption. In this case, it merely means that it's more fun to write about something I'm interested in or know something about than, say, being a scientist who escaped Chernobyl, or being a coal miner. There's nothing wrong with a story about a female coal miner; I'm just not going to be the person who writes that one. In the case of Diana, she actively made Claire a nurse in WWII because it gave her access to a lot of basic medical knowledge (without all the modern technological advances). Likewise, Claire had been raised by her uncle, who took her to various primitive archaeological sites, which provided a logical reason for her ability to fit into a past with no indoor plumbing or electricity. She didn't just pop her character into these situations; she thought them through. Thanks for an interesting video, even though I'm coming to it very late.

1:13 "but a great expert from it is this:" Thought that was funny! Thanks for the video!

When I think of Mary Sue characters, the two most obvious in recent movies and TV shows are Rey, whom you describe so aptly, and Michael Burnham in Star Trek: Discovery, the latter of whom I refer to as OYCDIMB -- Only You Can Do It Michael Burnham, which cringe-inducing phrase, along with Only You Could Have Done It Michael Burnham, is actually used more than once in the first season of the show. What I notice is that when the script revolves around a MS, it's a poor piece of characterization that is embedded in a poor piece of all-around writing. I suffered through the final Skywalker trilogy much as choked down the first three seasons of ST:D, but finally couldn't get through even the first episode of Season 4 of Trek. (And don't get me started on Picard -- what an abominable insult to a great character.) Inept writers seem to think that they need to make flawless superhero-saints out of female protagonists, which is a slight toward those characters, as well as toward women in general. Give me Sarah Connor, Ripley, any one of a number of women from the Wheel of Time series, or -- stepping outside the two genres -- Kim from Better Call Saul, any day of the week.

With Rey I can buy the mechanical skills and maybe the flying skills. I got the impression from what she said that she had previously worked on the Millennium Falcon. She also made a living as a scavenger. Good mechanical skills seems to be something she would have picked up over the years. Was Han really ever good fixing anything? I always assumed Chewie did most the work. The flying may be a bit of a stretch but we have seen previously potential jedi have better than human reflexes and unconscious awareness. We don't know she did or didn't fly previously. Where it falls apart for me is the overt uses of the force like moving objects and mind tricks. Those were previously things that needed to be taught and learned. Anakin has several years between episodes 1 and 2 to learn. I was hoping they would go KOTOR with the series and say Rey was a lost disciple of Luke and had her memories repressed. She was hidden because someone knew the new jedi order would fall apart.

The biggest problem concerning Mary Sues for me is that it has been weaponized by warring internet tribes. Because it is usually derogatory and feminine, it is obviously a tool of the misogynistic patriarchy. As many have explained, the term could as easily be used to describe male characters. Rambo and Bond come to mind... For me it has to do with credible threat, how a protagonist deals with their friends and allies and their antagonist, and their overall character arch. But then add the "save the world" trope and I really start rolling my eyes.

I agree people throw around the term Mary Sue too lightly. One that I've seen but people say but don't agree with is Egwene. She goes through a lot and learns from those experiences, but she is set up as someone who loves to learn and is very determined, AND she has so many flaws.

Man I haven't read name of the wind in a couple years but I remember loving it, it was the book that really got me into more mature fantasy in the first place. I would hate to go back and realize it was all self-insert lol Also I haven't reread words of radiance in a minute either, could someone give me a hint as to which scene she's referring to?

Do you think that in the director's zealousness he was turning both Nynaeve and Egwene into Mary Sues? ... I'm still rather...uh...annoyed at the ending of episode 8 of the first season of Wheel of Time (tv series) where Egwene realistically Mary Sue-ed her way there at the ending. Yes, I understand that due to the loss of Barney and the health restrictions imposed upon the filming due to covid that things were forced to be changed. But, it is what it is and so I am left with a sense of utter disaster and fears now for season 2 and for how Amazon is going to...uh...'enhance' the Rings of Power. Galadriel in Tolkien's literature was quite capable (seriously, at the level of Feanor with a different skillset!) and I don't want her to be Mary Sue-ed by the unwashed masses - of which I am a member, ha! keeping my fingers crossed.

Here's my question: can a villain be a Mary Sue? I often see villains that are basically perfect: overpowered, good-looking, and flawless, but since they are on the bad side we overlook how unrealistic these characters might actually be. This bad person tends to just have 1 flaw that typically makes them evil. I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else, but this thought just occurred to me.

Mary Sues have clear markers & are overused in fantasy, and often in sci-fi. IMO, it’s more important to discuss how to diminish their ‘overpowered-ness’ and elevate the other characters -literally at the Mary Sue’s expense. This is not to force all stories into an ensemble cast, but to make the main character distinctive & worthy of the name protagonist without poisoning the other characters. We tend to want most of our myths to have people worthy of the conversation “I like [character a] for this reason, [character b] for that reason, but these [characters c & d] stink because of [x].” If those characters aren’t the beneficiaries of qualities that make them worthy of that sort of conversation, then there could be a serious dearth of distinction in the cast. A Mary Sue makes that kind of conversation more of a debate about how the protagonist compares to Mary Sues in other stories, because the side-characters didn’t even matter enough to discuss. So, metaphorically the author(s) need to create a sort of spinning mobile of uncommonly empowered/flawed characters with a lot of tension introduced by varying the weights (their strengths or weaknesses when presented with opportunity/hardship), varying lengths of strings (their roles in the multiple plot arcs) and varied lengths of poles (their circumstantially induced foils that keep them from outright winning or losing). Don’t add one weight that counterbalances everything else, that's what Mary Sues often do. Off topic, but continuing the metaphor, if the mobile spins too fast the reader isn’t given enough time to gauge the overall structure of the world and discover where the tensions lie, but if it’s perfectly stationary then the reader gets bored watching the author build a static world with no chaos.

Excellent argument and video presentation. Overall, I was puzzled by Rey's character in the film. When Rey was repairing the Millennium Falcon, I thought the scene worked since it was like a youthful upstart meeting an old school Han Solo. Her admiration for Han Solo was clearly evident. It was sort of like a millennial think outside the box scenario, which happens all the time at work. Once again, great video!

Perfect example in the fantasy world: Savine dan Glokta. Way more than Ray of Star Wars.

I loved The Force Awakens and I loved Rey in it, but I admit I might have been seduced; seeing a female Jedi on the big screen -- yes, there was Ahkosa before her, but she was primarily a TV character; her one appearance on the big screen is best forgotten -- gave me a heady thrill, especially in the wake of my crushing disappointment in the way Padme's character went from badass in Attack of the Clones to weepy, passive drip in Revenge of the Sith. Rey came into my life at a time when I needed her, so I didn't care much that she was a Mary Sue. I still don't. I can't help noticing at times the difference between wish-fulfillment stories aimed at guys and those aimed at girls. The wish-fulfillment figure for boys is someone like Kvothe: a dashing, daring, uber-capable ladies' man who can sure spin an awesome yarn. Contrast that with someone who is often described as a wish-fulfillment figure for girls: Bella Swan, who has NO skills, talents, interests, or ambitions and lacks all distinct personality traits, but is nonetheless adored by everyone who matters, especially the Two Hottest Guys in the Universe. Male wish-fulfillment figures are at least expected to DO something; their amazing capabilities are part of the wish. Yet female wish-fulfillment figures like Bella don't have to do anything at all in order to win the love of the Hottest Guys; their passivity is part of the wish. This bothers me. If I, as a viewer or reader, wanted to wish myself into the shoes of a protagonist, I'd much rather be a Rey or a Kvothe than a Bella. Apologies for the wall of text.

I’m drawing an absolute blank….can somebody point out which Kaladin scene she’s referring to? Thanks

The first time I ever heard of the term Mary Sue was in reference to two male characters.

I've been recommended this video and clicked it because I have time and know the characters on it. I liked the video too but I've looked at your channel and I basically know nothing about any of your videos... I probably won't be watching you but I wish you good luck.

You have to face the reality that this Mary Sue trend that's been going on for the last 5-8 years or so does not exist in a creative vacuum. There's good reason to believe that there are people who are behind these projects who have little to no love about the franchises they take over and simply want to smear their bitterness all over whichever stories they are in charge in. They wrap this bitterness in sweet words like "social justice" and "women empowerment" which makes it easy for them to shoot down their critics as they will easily be labeled as "homophobes" or "misogynists" and other pejoratives - the perfect gaslighting move. It's genius, really. Mean-spirited, yes, but genius.

I feel that the whole idea of Kvothe is that he is a genius mixed with great musical talent, but he's extremely poor. It makes for great drama seeing someone who should easily succeed run into problems constantly because they have no money. Picture Batman but without the money.

Hi 👋 great video! 📝🎬🎥

Not a Mary Sue: Hadrian Marlowe from Christopher Ruocchio's Sun Eater Chronicles. Kinda like Indiana Jones, Hadrian gets himself into a lot of situations where he ought to be overwhelmingly awesome and instead gets his ass kicked. Same with Çeda from Bradley Beaulieu's Song of Shattered Sands.

There was a way to explain why Rey could do all the things she could do, it's called 'Object Read,' and would have allowed Rey to sense how an object should be used. The Force connects all things, including rocks, according to Yoda, so the Millennium Falcon would have been able to tell Rey how it should have been piloted, or the lightsaber how it should be wielded. However, there's a danger to object reading, in that the object wouldn't know how to respond to unconventional situations. Neither Anakin or Luke fought someone with tonfa lightsabers, so it wouldn't be able to tell Rey how to fight someone with that weapon. Rey would have to train herself to adapt to the situation, but that never happened, so Rey's a mess.

There are a lot of memorable Kaladin scenes in WoR. Which one are we talking about?

Of course, the ultimate Mary Sue is Superman. James Bond, from the movies, is not far behind (though he is not so much in the books).

An interesting take on Rey. While I definitely agree that she has some Mary Sue elements (but ones that I feel make her likable), I feel that there is a lot more of her character development as the movies go along.

Great video though, btw!!!!! Thank you for this!. ^-^ 💜💜

I guess I feel like some Mary sue traits are more forgiveable then others the most infuriating one is the one where a character is good Regardless of what they do despite being an evil bastard

I'm reading Name of the Wind currently. I don't love Kvothe... I'm going to hold off on book two until book three comes out someday. I'm getting the sense that he's maybe an unreliable narrator...but we'll see. With Rey, I liked her in the first movie. But the next two movies didn't play it out well which then retroactively colored the character in the first movie in a negative way. I'm just hoping King Killer Chronicles doesn't got the same way.

Great video! I am kinda someone who really dislikes this trope, but also think it is one of the most overused labels out there, and that actual examples in well loved books are probably not mary/gary stus/ because stories that actually have mary/gary stu's as protagonists tend to just be boring, so die. At this point it seems like people just call characters a Gary/mary stu when they are good at or even multiple things, or even one thing. Which would mean Tiger Woods would be a Gary Stu in real life, even though the label literally started to describe an unrealistic character. Like, here is an actual quote from a review of The Blade Itself "Second character: Jezal. Stupid, arrogant, lazy. Currently in training to take part in the Contest, basically a duelling contest. The thing is, while he keeps practicing in the mornings, he's drinking in the evenings. He's still getting better, and I don't buy that. Too much Gary Stu for me. Also, his POVs kept going on my nerves because, well, he's stupid. And arrogant. And lazy." (Yes Klaus, if you are reading this, this is from your review, you are being called out. Although you would probably disagree with your own assessment here in hindsight, so whatever)(also being stupid, arrogant, and lazy by definition makes someone not a Gary Stu) (Also of course he got better, he went from drinking all day and not practicing at all, to practicing in the morning every day, and drinking in the evening.) I see this all the time, where in order for someone to not be a mary/gary stu they have to not be good at anything. It originated to describe unrealistic talent, in general talented people exist. Some people are naturally very good at stuff. Basically I kinda agree with the definition you gave, but think every aspect is necessary for someone to be a gary/mary stu. I would also add to the definition that a Mary/Gary Stu either never makes meaningful mistakes, or the consequences of their mistakes/flaws don't have any meaningful consequences. So if we were told constantly that Kvothe was arrogant and prideful, but his arrogance and pride never lead to any real losses, or consequences, I would consider him a gary stu. Which is why I personally fall in favor of Kvothe not being a Gary Stu, because he causes so many disasters for himself. A lot of the obstacles in KKC are obstacles that come from Kvothe doing dumb things, and messing things up for himself. Which I think is what makes him different from Rey, who (I still haven't seen The Rise of Skywalker, so this could be wrong) is probably really good at a comparable amount of stuff(although with less effort). So I don't think the difference in ability is what makes Rey a Mary Stu while Kvothe isn't. It is that none of the problems the good guys run into ever happen because of something Rey messed up. She is also as far as I remember never wrong in any argument. While Kvothe could solve a lot of his problems, and also would have way less problems if he was able to be less arrogant/prideful. (also I kinda agree with you that while Kvothe is not being completely honest, that his level of dishonestly will end up being less than what KKC theorists tend to think it will be) I attribute the cringy stuff in WMF to the writing of supporting characters, and eventually when DoS is coming out, I will probably end up having a big rant about why I dislike so much in the last third of WMF(not just Felurian, primarily The Ademre, who should all be dead for a number of reasons), just for reasons other than Kvothe being a gary stu. Also here is a non exclusive list of characters I have seen called a Gary or Mary stu, for entertainment purposes. Because uh...no, none of these. Egwene Rand Kaladin Shallan Harry Dresden(I mean you have only read one Dresden book, but can definitely tell he messes up....a lot.) FitzChivalry Vin Jezal Paul Atreideis(this one I kinda get if you don't read Dune Messiah or hear about what Dune Messiah is about, but uh....Paul has issues, that are in Dune, and are focused on in Dune Messiah) Oh also the real character who is a Gary stu is not an actual character, but the character some people seem to want, whenever they complain about characters in a book making really bad decisions, based on emotions. Who I call logic bot, and who would be really boring, but yes would make a much more efficient chosen one than Rand.

Rey never happened. Star Wars 7-9 is fake.

No offense at all. Just a note that actually Master Elodin was younger than Kvothe, when he applied to the University. Love your channel 😊

Have you read any of the Iron Druid Chronicles by Kevin Hearne

I have to admit that I don't even think of Mary Sue/Gary Lou characters as being a trope. They're just poor characterization and writing. I also don't think overly powerful or competent characters fit the description. It's an overly powerful/competent character where we have absolutely no background on or off screen that backs up their competency. They just are the best. Period. Full stop. There's no training montage. There's not exposition about how they went through "X" in their past. They're just thrust into a new situation and somehow they're SUPER good at it. Even Luke used to bullseye wamp rats in his T-16 back home, and they weren't much bigger than 2m. Not to mention, as you point out, we do get a training montage and exposition periods with him. I guess this all means that, in my opinion, the Mary Sue/Gary Lou character is critically defined by that enormous level of power or competency without any hint, or with minimal, explanation of how or why they're so competent or good. They simply are, or there's bare lip service paid to something that wouldn't have given them that competency/power level, but some writer thought it was enough.

I don't think of Kvothe as a true Mary Sue. My prediction is that his cleverness is the thing that will ultimately be his downfall. This is foreshadowed heavily in both KKC books: he breaks into Hemme's rooms because he's clever, but not thinking ahead. Vashet sees some powerful force in him that could even be stronger than the Lethani. He nearly kills himself while studying under Ben because he's too clever for his own good. So yeah, he's really clever and good at things, but that's probably going to end up ruining his life so that he's left just waiting to die in an inn. We'll see. I think it's good for people who want to be critical to read something on the far end of the spectrum, just to gain a better perspective. For that, I'd strongly suggest trying to read Free the Darkness by Kel Kade. If you want to truly see what a Mary Sue looks like, that's the book for you. When he was able to snatch a crossbow bolt out of the air and throw it back at the guy who'd shot it at him, with the same force as it had been shot at him, and kill the shooter with it... yeah, I was done with that book. There's no establishing tension when your main character is that strong (plus all the other ridiculously overpowered things he did).

What is this words of radiance scene?! I have read it but it’s been awhile can someone refresh my memory please :D

I never liked the Name of the Wind, and I wasn't really able to put my finger on why until I watched this. Kvothe is just too perfect, I was never able to engage with him and found him boring and shallow.

Mary Sue´s tend to be very non-selfaware. Their "perfection" in everything they do is does not allow them to ever be introspective. So they are overall boring. Never have to doubt yourself or have any real inner struggle if you have never failed. And if the author tries to sell us on their self doubt it falls flat because we have no believable evidence they would ever second guess themselves. So Mary Sueness stems from that. You can´t be a Mary Sue if you are not good at everything. And you are a Mary Sue when you are good at everything. Characters with proficiencies need to have strugles in other aspects of their life. Saitama is the strongest being ever conceived. But he is permanently bored because of it (he also sucks at videogames tho thats more of a joke) Dalinar commands the biggest army in Roshar but he chose to make the other Kings follow him through diplomacy making his work harder because he has a moral compass now. Kaladin is the best fighter. Is a great leader. Is tall and handsome. Is a good Surgeon. And he is creating Therapy in Roshar... But he is ALL of that because ALL of what he has been through. He was thaught to fight in the army where he lost his brother. He learned to lead every time he chose to escape with others. He learned to be a surgeon as a child with his father. And he is learning to heal the minds of others as he learned that his was also damaged.

I think Kvothe is not a Mary Sue.

I can't help but bring up Kaladin as an example of the opposite of the Mary Sue being taken a little too far. I really liked Kaladin's struggles and empathized with him whole heartedly....but I feel Sanderson dragged out his fight with PTSD a little too far, like maybe half to one book too far. By the time Kaladin finally overcame it and accepted himself, I was so relieved because it really felt like it was beating a dead horse at that point. I was like, "Ok Sanderson, we get it already, Kaladin can't live with himself and his self perceived mistakes, JUST MAKE HIM SAY THE WORDS ALREADY!!!", lol. I actually failed to see Kvoth as being a Mary Sue. I think because it is in his POV I just kind of ignored it, or something.

(It's kinda funny to me, hearing you say Marty Stu tho, because I've usually heard of male Sues being called as Gary Stus or Gary Sues way more often than called Marty-but I do know that different circles of people do slant other ways, much like how different circles of people invented the vastly differing definitions of a Mary Sue to begin with too.🤭🙂🙂 Loll) I think it's impossible to say for sure if Rey is or isn't a Mary Sue until people settle on a more exact definition of what exactly a Mary Sue even is or isn't. Until then, Rey will be one to some people, and she won't be one to others. And I think that everyone should really get comfy with accepting that maybe, for now. Lol (I haven't read Rothfuss' books yet, myself, though .. so I can't comment on that one, yet.😅 😁😊) Ssooo, what kind of characters ARE a Mary Sue? Self-inserts? "O.P." characters? Characters that are too perfect/too good & or successful at everything? Too "special"? Too beautiful? Too important?/Too adored or too much the center of everything & or too much the focus of everyone and anyone else around them? orr -What?? 🤔 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ To me, a Mary/Gary Sue isn't necessarily a self-insert or an OPed character or a character who is super perfect or beautiful or good at everything at all-although an OPed character may certainly be a Mary Sue, and a Mary Sue may certainly be OPed[. And so on]. To me, a Mary Sue is a character who is the center of attention, and/or who always saves the day in the end...but who is so _specifically_ *even when* they have zero plausible or believable in-canon business or reason for being-so or doing so. Like, the way that Mary Sue just randomly picks the lock behind everyone's back with a hair pin without anyone noticing and makes it so everyone can escape or what-such whilst everyone else was just sitting there doing nothing and senselessly arguing over how would they ever get outta there, or whatever-even though she has no actual in-canon reason why she would know how to successfully pick a lock, really. Or the way that Kirk just gives her the ship's helm to man in his stead, even though she's not even his second in command at all and probably doesn't even know how to captain or pilot that ship at all. Or the way that Mary Sue does not become ill when everyone else does, even though....there is no actual reason why she did not?. To me, Mary Sue will always succeed[ or be unreasonably loved/admired or hated/resented by everyone around her]...for literally no actual reason EXCEPT that she _is_ Mary Sue. And, specifically in fan-fiction, Mary Sue is that character who the Canon characters are written inconsistently, or erratically, or OOC[out-of-character] around-without sufficient explanation or justification as to why. And, to me, Rey is [mostly ]not that; at least, for now, until I rewatch and decide if my opinion has or hasn't changed at all from the first time around. Despite the fact that I can and do certainly see and appreciate why many people take issues with the way that other characters apart from her are written, and/or take issues with how OPed she is in some ways[ but especially in her third movie]. (I, myself, actually do take issues with those things too.🙃🙃 👀 -I'm just not entirely convinced that "because she's a Mary Sue" is the reason why.) But maybe that's just me. 🙂 IDK

basically all the main characters in David Eddings books are Mary Stus

I think Rey could have worked if she was written better

To me, there’s nothing wrong with being “overly powerful” in one or two areas (the best fighter and leader, or the best survivalist, OR the best mechanic and engineer). Especially when it fits their background. It’s called “genius.” In Rei’s case, she grew up scavenging to survive. It’s a problem when they’re the best at literally everything, it’s unsupported by plot (as you said) and there’s no deficiencies. Einstein and Mozart, for example, were genuinely and YET Einstein Is thought to have been Autistic and Mozart was probably Schizophrenic. It’s rare that a character’s power actually creates their deficiency.

To me, Rey being a Mary Sue is in the "teach the controversy" territory partly hinges on how the Force is subject to interpretation and her implied backstory. Due to the explanations I've learned about, I'm totally fine with Rey succeeding with Jedi mind tricks and overpowering Kylo Ren, but I would totally revise away the parts related to Rey fixing the Millenium Falcon and instead make Finn the engineering geek (will also affect how he handles Starkiller Base). I accept somewhat that Rey received meaningful punishments for her flaws: In TFA, captured by Kylo Ren for running away from the fight. In TLJ, not getting liked by Luke and failing to redeem Kylo Ren are somewhat meaningful punishments for character flaws, but again, Luke and Anakin received even bigger negative consequences in their own films. I can see TLJ walked back Rey's Mary Sue-ness.

I guess it all comes down to poor or sloppy writing, whatever the intentions may be, the outcome being a Mary Sue character.

One of the things you pointed out that I tend to agree with is my personal reaction to the character. If the character is not annoying me I tend to lean that they aren’t a Mary Sue. I can substantiate but really that’s the reason I’d say Rey isn’t a Mary Sue. I also like powerful characters and before the movies came out I was hoping for someone better than Luke. Luke is borderline lame in the original trilogy.

Can you make a few videos where I disagree with you for once? "Why kaladin sucks" or something. 🤣 Anyway yes I loved this video, I agree that Rey is a Mary Sue and why the character just doesn't work as intended. Kvothe...now, I have only read NOTW so far. I'm aware to some degree how WMF portrays Kvothe's "skills" and I will probably eye-roll myself into an early grave when I get to that. However, I don't believe Kvothe is a Mary Sue because literally all of this man's problems are his own. He constantly makes trouble for himself, and he is very flawed. He just happens to be very good at THINGS HE LIKES TALKING ABOUT. This is never mentioned. He is a great musician and he likes talking about music, so while telling his life story he makes sure to include every time he totally wow'd those people at that tavern with his mad skillz. If I was telling my life story I would definitely talk about all the concerts I went to, and how totally great I am at getting to the front row, because I'm awesome and the rest of you aren't. Meanwhile I would never mention that I am terrible at folding things. So yeah, maybe my opinion will completely reverse with WMF but I was constantly aware of Kvothe being essentially a huge moron for all of NOTW, and last I checked, being a moron is a character flaw. Also for the same reason, I don't know if I buy that Rothfuss is using the unreliable narrator trope to any reasonable degree, because Kvothe makes plenty of mistakes and is honest about them. I'm sure he's exaggerating in some places but I don't believe it's enough that it changes the story. Maybe only 85% of the people in those taverns thought he was totally wicked, instead of 100%. 😅

Best video I've seen on Mary sou so far but the women still managed to ruin it somehow

There are no Mary Sue characters, only Mary Sue stories.

Interesting video. I know the series goes dramatically downhill but the Riftwar series by Raymond E Feist had the same issue with some of its main protagonists, especially Talwin Hawkins from the later books and Jimmy the Hand. They excelled at everything and it did become a bit annoying....

🥰

I remember back in Ye Olden Days of the Webbernet, the phrase "Mary Sue" was used almost solely in the FanFiction community, especially regarding self-insert characters into existing canon material who happen to be better than perfect. Much of the community despised these tropes (and often with good reason), but I see that the phraseology has shifted to include some more... well.. toxic definitions. I just wish we could go back to bashing horrid fanfic and leave legitimate canonical characters out of it. :P

I really liked Rey when I saw Force Awakens but then it seemed fashionable to hate her and she started getting called a Mary Sue. I still really like her character and the actress but they did dilute her impact leveling her up with no visible effort or training that the audience could identify with.

Comics, but I think superman might be the og mary sue.

I never really liked James Bond, he is boring to me as a character that is good at everything and gets all the girls with little to no effort. I think most will say he is not a Mary Sue because we see an experienced spy who has gone through a lot of training before we see him on screen and that explains why he is so good, and he is just a very handsome/charismatic person so it all makes sense. But he is just boring to me even if there is excellent intrigue and action going on in the story. The example with Rey is so bad because we see her when she knows nothing of the force and with no training she is just good at every aspect of it and fixing the ship and every other problem they run into she is just good at it.

Great video. I never felt Ray was a Mary Sue. I enjoyed her as a character. I haven’t read the Kingkiller Chronicles.

I didn't find Kvothe a mary sue overall, but did find "kvothe sex god" to be cringy teen male fantasy

The thing about Rey was that everything in The Force Awakens could be explained. Yeah, maybe it wasn’t the best writing, and it could’ve been done better, but there are still reasons why she could have believable done each of the things she did. The problem came in The Last Jedi when she could suddenly do way more, and there was no explanation. She had 0 training, but still made all the right choices, everything worked out perfectly for her, etc. They tried to fix it with The Rise of Skywalker, but even that was mostly just trying to fix problems, and not tell a good story. I really liked Rey in TFA, but I just got more and more disappointed with her in the following movies. Great discussion as always. -T

SJM is the queen of Mary Sue and wish fulfillment characters. Talk about telling and never showing.

Kaladin is a great character in Words of Radiance, but he goes FULL Mary Sue in in Oathbringer...maybe he's better in the new one. I haven't read it. To me being skilled, "loved", or popular isn't what makes someone feel like a Mary Sue. A MS is someone who is "right" not for any coherent story reason, but because of who they are. Or someone who's "specialness" seems to be the point of the story. And I don't mean special in a "chosen one"/Harry Potter sense, more in a "Perks of Being a Wallflower Sense". That character isn't popular, but intentionally so. We're supposed to understand that the popular kids are less than him, and that's the point of the book. Jyn Erso in Rogue One...awful character. Awful Mary Sue. And I hated Rey, agree she's a Mary Sue, but the "she knows how to fix the MF better than Han Solo" thing is a weird example for people to fixate on. Han is NOT a mechanical genius. That the ship is always falling apart is the whole second movie. Star Wars should be FULL of people who can fix the MF better than he can, for example Chewie!

Apparently the term 'Mary Sue' is misogynist as well now...

It just gets too annoying and boring when you know someone can't mess up, because they are a girl. Anakin is a great creation. He starts as a young talented child. But he gradually gets frustrated with his limitations. And is good points lead to his final fall to the dark side.

Arya Stark from GOT in my opinion most overrated character in the series

Careful on the topic of Mary Sue, or Miss Sue will Sue ya.. (for slander) hahaha xD