Oscar wilde: "Art is neither moral nor immoral" Also oscar wilde: makes the painting reflect dorians morality

Just finished the book. This video was awesome and gave me a ton to think about. Rather than finding redemption I took Dorian's ultimate fate as another expression of beauty. Like if I imagine Henry and Dorian talking about the event afterwards they would be praising the tragedy and irony and how even his death, much like his life, conformed to aesthetic ideals. He stabbed the painting with the same weapon and for the same reason as he did Basil; both were forcing him to acknowledge his own sins and asked him to confess and repent for them. Though I suppose his body reverting to being tortured and shriveled sort of puts a wrinkle in that, but eh. I have to agree, this is easily one of, if not just flat out my favorite book now.

I really loved this discussion, you said all what I was thinking about. “It’s fascinating book, I don’t think that you ever actually be able to say what it’s about. It a work of art, it’s like a painting you can look at it for hours and find different things in it”

This book is timeless. The power of beauty vs the value of good. You are correct, the book does not judge, rather judgement is left to he reader. An interesting perspective. I often recommend Dorian Grey as an intro book to classics. It can be read at a superficial level but is thought provoking if so inclined. Thank you for the discussion.

One of the best discussions of this book. Congratulations, because I have read & seen so much. Bravo.

i hadn´t thought about the 2 artists in the book actually being more down to earth than the non-artists... excellent analysis!!

I love, love, love when you have these discussions :) It's kind of like being back at uni, and I miss the discussions we had at lectures and seminars there. I would really love to see more videos like this from you and Nick.

When I was a kid my parents got 2 portraits painted of me (copied from a school photo) as gifts for my grandparents. I’ve since inherited one of them and keep it up in my loft! I’m always a little disappointed whenever I go up in the loft to see that my portrait still looks so young! Maybe that’s a sign that I’ve lived a good life.

i've just finished reading it, and now that all these parts of the book have been pointed out, not only does it make a lot more sense, but i've really gotten a sense for why it has its notoriety

I don't usually comment on videos but I had to say that this was such a treat. Thank you for the time you put into making this, both you and Nick.

I think the story asks the question of making moral choices. How we choose to live our lives and whether or not you can change after making a bad choice. Can you change the kind of person you are by changing your behaviors (and making up for bad choices earlier in Life) is the question of the book.

loved this video so much! i absolutely loved this novel, it's 100% one of my favorites. what a rich piece of text, there's so much to discuss, unpack, and appreciate about it. it's an incredible work of art

This book will forever remain one of my favourites. The amount of detail that Wilde puts into explaining everything, from the smallest of room details to the characters themselves, is extraordinary and I've never seen anything like it. Further, the plot itself is so enjoyable to read over and over again :)

I loved watching this! Thought-generating and insightful, a discussion of a type I am too rarely involved in. I read the book for the first time earlier today - in one sitting - and found your video shortly after, and it has further consolidated my newfound adoration for what is easily my favourite book I've ever read. Thank you :)

I miss having discussions like this with my friends, thank you for making me feel I was among friends once more

I’ve just finished this book and loved it. Great discussion...many thanks.

Extremely well done both of you. You brought out something new for me and I thank you. I have a bad tendency to just take the story at 'face value', of what was on the page without looking more deeply. I shall definitely stop doing that. You and Nick had some very interesting ideas.

I got so excited when I saw the notification for this video 😍 The Picture of Dorian Gray is my favourite Victorian classic! Wonderful discussion!

Great discussion, just finished reading it for the first time, I hadn’t considered a lot of these points

You are supremely intelligent people. The Picture of Dorian Gray is also my favourite novel -- its tale of moral corruption is timeless, and, as was said, treating the novel as 'conversation' with the preface allows for such an interesting reading experience.

I Wish Nick read some of my books i have on Audible, he has such a beautiful narrative voice , and diction. 🥰

What a wonderful discussion! The two of you together seemed to spark a really thoughtful exchange of ideas. Thanks for letting us watch.

It's a masterpiece of a book, in my opinion. However, Dorian is quite willing to be corrupted.

I really enjoy your videos together...the way you bounce ideas off each other and that you have sometimes such different views that are both valid. I enjoyed this book but I really couldn't say its my favourite or even in my top ten books so I was intrigued to know what really speaks to Nick about this book. Really illuminating discussion thank you.

Thank you for this discussion - exactly what I needed after having read the book yesterday almost without paying attention to any different things. You've suggested very interesting ideas which I could not probably come up with myself. Personally, while reading the Picture of Dorian Gray, I got frightened to some extent, the things that were described seemed so awful, and I just realized I wanted to be always good. The book also helped me realize that pleasure and happiness are not the same things and that happiness satisfies one better than pleasure.

Very much enjoyed the discussion! I had the Penguin Black Classics version which had lots of footnotes showing the difference between the original edition and the later one where Wilde added a lot. I am so glad he added James Vane as I think he really brought a lot to the tale.

Really enjoyed this video, it has me reading it once again. I read it a few years ago and really liked it. 🥰🙌❤

Wonderful discussion. It's many years since I read the book, though I've seen some dramatizations since then. There are so many layers to this book, and you two explore many of them here. Thanks to both of you.

Wow, Nick's analysis at 28:26 absolutely blew my mind! This was such a brilliant discussion.

I read Dorian Grey too many years ago, you made me want to re-read it very soon :)

Excellent! 📚📚📚📚

Enjoyed this very much … thanks to you both. I watched the movie of Dorian Gray many years ago and read/listened to the book for the first time just a couple of weeks back. I liked the book much more than I had expected to and your discussion has made me definitely want to reread it some time in the not too distant future.

Loved this commentary. I just finished The Picture of Dorian Grey. It wasn’t a great read but I appreciate the book and it’s commentary of the times back then. You guys definitely helped me reflect on other themes that I didn’t pick up on at first so thank you for adding to more reflection while I shower lol! I think that this was a series of unfortunate events for Dorian. He was so susceptible to new things as he met Basil and Lord Harry. (Section in the book showed how alone he was being raised and feeling unwanted by his grand father who raised him) and then he meets Basil and Harry. I think all three together was the worst thing to happen. Basil and Harry for being the adults and just putting these ideas of beauty and youth into Dorians mind and Dorian, for being so easily influenced. Was Dorian always to find this path if he was so easily influenced on Harry’s points of views though everyone else thy had discourse with Harry, dismissed his theory’s? If there is someone most at fault… I would have to say Dorian. Easily corruptible because that’s what he was seeking. Thank you for a great video!

thanks for the warning. I'll come back to this video after I've read the story.

ah so good!

I love discussions with you and Nick! I wish I could convince Andy to appear on my channel, but he's adamantly against it. I really need to reread The Picture of Dorian Gray. I did listen to a condensed play version lately, so it's sort of fresh in my mind. I always interpreted the book as though the concept of the portrait itself is what leads to Dorian's corruption more so than any individual character (apart from Dorian himself). He can do anything he'd like and not have to bear the consequences, and that gives him an opportunity to indulge. I love the idea that trying to draw morality from a work of art is the true corrupting force in the novel. I also love the points you make about the reason he ends up destroying the painting, that the little good he did wouldn't affect it. And does he know it will destroy himself? I never was sure, and I think the ending can be interpreted in so many interesting ways.

I haven't read this book but I accidentally listened through the excerpt Nick read.....he could be an audiobook narrator in his spare time. He sensitively reads and has a terrific voice. I will come back and listen after reading this. I love when you both do videos of any type, but this type of analysis is where you both shine and I'm tempted to keep listening and read afterward! But I won't. Thanks for sharing this.

I think it is Lord Henry who has the most influence on Dorian.He is from the upper classes who, in those days were extremely well respected even to the detriment of others of a lower class.Lord Henry seems to be infalliable,smart,and alluring to Dorian. Dorian seems to be mesmorized by Lord Henry.It is what Nick said about homoeroticism in the book.Spot on, you two!!! Great discussion!!!

is one major theme , the mention in the preface , about how looking at the depth of art (dorian) it is ugly or spoils it

I loved this video. I paused every once in a while to discuss what I thought about what you’d said 😂 in regards to who’s judging Dorian, I always thought it was basil. I always thought that basils morality was in the painting seeing as he created it and there’s a quote in I think chapter 12 where Dorian says to basil “can’t u see ur ideal in it” I do like the idea of it being the standards of Victorian society as well tho- maybe it’s a bit of both or because Basils morality is primarily based on Victorian society it’d make sense?? Idk. But if this were the case, a reason for its inaccuracy could be that Basil’s feelings for Dorian may also be intertwined with the morality within the painting (no clue how that work.) And then, when Dorian kills basil it’s like the death of his ideal/ his moral compass and also the potential death of a sort of redemption arc. You could maybe link that to the idea of Basil as God (at least as far as the pairing is concerned seeing as he made it) If God is like the ultimate ideal, Dorians just gone and killed that which probably doesn’t bode well for him.

I love this book! Check out my blog/podcast where I compare the book with the movie! whythebookwins.com/the-picture-of-dorian-gray/

yes i think lord henry is the strongest influence of dorian’s corruption , lord henry is like mephistopheles, or an evil spirit possessing him . imo . but maybe i’ll see it differently the next time i read it . but it seems even though dorian started making materialistic decision , and prideful decisions , i don’t think those thoughts were in his head before henry introduces them . but again i’ve only read it once

Enjoyed the discussion. A great, noteworthy book of ideas, emotions and questions. I like the 40's movie adaptation. Any thoughts re: that film?

The book started out as obscene evidence against Oscar Wilde during his trial. Now it is considered a major Catholic novel.

I read this last year around is time and my extreme dislike of Lord Henry is still going strong, lol. I loved this discussion. The Preface is my favorite part of the book. And while I get that Lord Henry and his influence is more fluid and the point is that things are not black and white. He is not the "bad guy" to blame for all the ills in the world, I still can't stand him. Lord Henry is the type of person in the real world that I can't stand.

PS You're almost up to 11K 😀

Does the shorter version of the book (the 13 chapters one) not have james vane in it? Because I really don’t remember him being in it, in fact I didn’t know he existed until I watched the 2009 movie

I'm distracted by the embroidered picture on the shelf. Did you get it from Vietnam? Wait, is it embroidery art or sand art?

I think, throughout the book, the portrait remains an accurate portrayal of Dorian's soul. When he checks on the portrait at the end of the book, it has "a look of cunning" and the mouth has "the curved wrinkle of the hypocrite". I think these show that Dorian was only trying to be "good" to save his own soul and this is not the essence of being good. Dorian, even after his so-called change of heart, only ever had his own best interests at heart. He wasn't being good to be good, he was being good to save himself - hence the comments on cunning and hypocrisy.

I am commenting in the middle of watching this video so I don't know if you make this point or not But I feel like towards the end the influence of lord henry had somewhat faded. In a passionate exchange when dorian almost confesses his crimes, he then proceeds to later not say anything at all because maybe he has realised how insubstantial Harry actually is!

Does someone knows if there is a Tittle of the book lord Henry gives to Dorian gray n what it's it?

This is fantastic! I read _Dorian Gray_ for the first time last year and didn't really care for it. After hearing this wonderful discussion, I will definitely give it another go. Also, Audible needs to hire Nick to do some narrating. :-)

I did study this book at uni, and I remember the lecturer telling us that there was an earlier draft without a female romance for Dorian, but Wilde added the romance because otherwise the homosexuality in the novel would be too pronounced and that would not be accepted. I think this book was part of the trial against Wilde, so I guess the straight romance in it wasn't enough. (But I might misremember some of this?)

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I don’t think this book is a work of dualism. The question Wilde asks and answers is not about morality but ideals. His ideal of life certainly appreciates beauty and wishes it to inform human ethics (in the Aristotelian sense of the soul’s action as distinct from moral leanings).

I love it! I have to ask, are the two of you a couple?

Lord Henry is obviously a Republican.