Season 5 episode 14 Crush Buffy to Spike: And whatever you think you're feeling, it's not love. You can't love without a soul. Drusilla : Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well... if not wisely. Vampires can care, they can have affections... just some have different priorities.

Just my opinion - Giles was completely out of line in this episode, and I think that Buffy closing the door in his face at the end of it was completely justified. Buffy is the leader, Giles undermined her leadership. We are so close to the end that I am getting worried what I will do with my Mondays.

The showrunners discussed Spike's personality in either a commentary or BTS vid. He's an anomaly among vampires. They attribute it to him being a poet in his human life which gives him a unique human perspective even after becoming a soul-less demon.

There's a pretty big difference between Spike's situation and the others though. He was a soulless monster. Then after he got a soul, he was being hypnotically controlled. He's proven what an asset he can be and the bad things he did were either 1) when he was a completely different person or 2) the result of a total lack of free will. Anya on the other hand chose to become a demon and kill people. Twice. Also the fact that Anya is still alive and with the group to even say that line shows that she's gotten some pretty preferential treatment herself too.

Not true that only Spike get a pass for killing people. Starting from Angel/Angelus, Willow and Anya herself.

Spike and Anya are rightfully not treated the same though. Anya made her choice with a soul, nobody was controlling her. Spike was soulless at first and after that he was controlled by the First. to compare them is to completely ignore the difference between free will and the absence of it. It really has nothing to do with favoritism and all with the difference in why those people were murdered by them.

I do think Buffy's insistence on protecting Spike does track for her. While Angel was constantly deriding himself for all his past evils, Buffy was staunchly in the "that is not you, vampire you did evil, but ensouled you is a force for good and we need you to keep fighting the good fight" camp. Even though others make very valid points against keeping Spike around while he has a trigger, I'm not surprised she defends him so adamantly.

My theory that Spike is the way he is, is because Dru was crazy/clairvoyant and that somehow makes him a vampire that's more human than demon.

Spike was never treated right as human. Everyone made fun of him. When he turned into a vampire he found his family that loved him. So he said fuck the world. Angel brought the monster out from him. Angel saw the good in him and knew he was different but used the demon in spike and brought that out

The point of Anya saying the line about spike supposedly getting away with more than anyone else is that he doesn’t. Anya herself has been forgiven time and time again for murder and acts as a vengeance demon. The frat boy line is a direct reference to her killing those guys at the college. Also Willow was forgiven for murder as well.

If Spike hadn't become a near instant fan favorite he wouldn't have survived Season 2.

I always got the feeling that Williams's mother kept a lot of her humanity when she turned, enough to hate what she'd become. She goads William into staking her by saying the nastiest things she can think of. When he stakes her, she's the only vampire we've seen who turns back to a human face before dusting. She looks sympathetically at William before she dies as she knows what he's become and she turns human face so it's the last thing William sees of her.

I think it is because Spike is unique as a vampire. He still has his humanity even if there is a demon inside him, more so than any vampire we've seen thus far. The Judge was the first one to note the humanity in Spike. Giles considered that there was a higher purpose for Spike being able to harm demons but not humans. And last but not least of course is the attempted rape. It was Spike that realized himself what he'd almost done, and in his regret for doing so choose to seek out a soul because it was the right thing to do so he wouldn't do something like that ever again.

Spire always loved women. Remember how he felt about Joyce? That was before his chip and his soul.

I remember saying this a while back when you guys were talking about Spike loving or not Buffy. I personally think of Buffy Vampires as Psychopaths. They don't necessarily lack emotions, more so they lack any sense of empathy leading them to feel no remorse from killing etc.. But just like in real world it is still possible to be a decent human being even with such illness a Spike showed between seasons 4 and 6. Additionally my head cannon was always that Spike was always special. A one off between Vampires, who did not quite lose all of his humanity. I think all that even works with Drusilla being his sire. The two of them were always different. It's also obviously the case that Vampires keep their human memories and large part of their personalities. Angel and Darla were both pretty terrible human beings while alive and continued to be some of the vilest Vampires.

Re: Spikes docile nature even as a vamp. If we go back to season 3 in Dopplegangland.. when Willow meets her alternate reality vampire self. Willow makes a comment that she's skanky in the alternate universe and Buffy says remember that that's not who you are. But Angel chimes in "that actually"...and then he realizes what he's about to say & cuts himself off so.. even though when you become a vampire you become more evil a lot of that seems to be who you are maybe even on an subconscious level. So it is possible that William/Spikes mom had inappropriate thoughts about her son that were maybe so deeply embedded that it wasn't until she became a vampire that that evilness about her was freed.

I wish I could have seen your reaction to my favorite line, when Buffy reprises the line, “The mission is what matters.”

Its like harmony ! She's the sweetest vamp but no soul hahah

This is a weird tangent fan theory, but I sometimes wonder if, based on what we know of vampires from episodes like this, Liam always had murderous impulses, even if never acted out. He's generally just shown as a drunken layabout, but he's pretty predatory to Darla in that alleyway and when reverted to Liam in Spin the Bottle, he seems to shift pretty quickly from "oh no, I'm a vampire" to "ah, guess I will kill you all then." This would partially explain the guilt Angel feels towards Angelus that Spike never experienced, because William would have just been a failed poet and mama's boy if never turned, and his dark side was born out of his desire to be a bad boy. Spike knows the killing he did came from being inhabited by a demon, but Angel doesn't know that for sure.. Even among non-Spile vampires, most just kill for food, but Angelus seems to be enjoy being a Seven/Hannibal Lecter type serial killer who got off more on watching people find their loved ones than the actual killing itself. He outright says in Amends, "It’s not the demon in me that needs killing; it's the man." In a way, this makes Angel all the more remarkable because paradoxically, it is only by having his worst qualities embodied by a demon, that the soul of Liam feels guilt and empathy. If he had never been turned by Darla, he may have turned into a proto Jack the Ripper anyway, but by becoming a vampire, his soul one day got a chance to reflect on his darkest thoughts and reject them.

This episode makes me lose most of the respect I had for Giles. And four principal Wood, it just figures because I never liked him to begin with. I thought Spike handled everything exceedingly well. And I love the part where Buffy said she'd let Spike kill him. In my opinion Buffy lets her group feel like they have more control over the situation than they do. They don't respect her as their leader. And I think she lets them feel that way because she's always fought against being that leader.

Just before Giles leaves in S6 he tells Buffy that he's "taught her all she needs to know." Now he is telling her "she needs to learn." Those are contradictory statements in general and not just because he also made her the General of the group. What I feel is really going on is Giles is having a hard time with the fact that Buffy is growing up. The fact that Giles never liked Spike is warring with his 'Buffy growing up' issue. Which is also contradictory to the fact that Buffy was depressed and needed him in S6 when he left town. Whether or not Spike is a problem wasn't the issue. The issue was that Giles considered Buffy the power (in being The General) to deal with it without realizing she was growing up. As for Wood it is just plain revenge and Buffy is right. They are fighting a war with The First. Now isn't the time for revenge. I agree with Buffy's decision in this case to close the door on Giles. It seems he wasn't going to learn the lesson he needed to learn (ironic considering he though he was trying to teach Buffy one) any other way. What Giles and Wood did was a last resort and Spike proved he could take care of it, so it wasn't a last resort. It was proven in _Crush_ that vampires can love, they just have different priorities regarding said emotions and the way their non-soul reacts to them. I think Anya is just as much a fan favorite regarding "the same rules not applying." Technically all the Scoobies get off the hook for things non-main cast members wouldn't at some point. The difference with this show compared to others is that it is immersive enough to discuss and not all shows and movies and comics and books are. Fan-favoritism doesn't have anything to do with it as much as the nature of storytelling does. Anya saying that about Spike makes the show more immersive.

Spike is special, he loved Dru when we first met him, it's the flavour of "crazy" he "inherited" from Drucilla turning him. If you notice, all Spike's "childer" are a bit strange too (in different ways). Spike's ability to love even as a soulless vamp is the entire point of the character. Wood: meh, he tried and he was totally justified. He's lucky to be alive; 'Nuff said. Giles: he betrayed Buffy's trust, AGAIN. Watcher patriarch deciding again what's best for the "weapon" who shouldn't think for herself... He's wrong and he's just so full of hubris that it's not even the case that he can't see it, he just doesn't even consider it. This is his role: the flawed father; a product of his time; a time that is passing. He deserves to be shut out and Buffy needs to do it to become the General that he says she's "playing" at. Love your reactions, sooo looking forward to the rest of the season! Was really hard to stay spoiler free in my little rant above but I think I got my points across without opening any cans of worms :)

Vampires can love, they just can't love selflessly. They are very selfish creatures. When Spike didn't have a soul, it was always about what he wanted, not what she wanted. What she wanted was irrelevant. Spike wanted her, so he was going to force her to want him back. But he still has some self reflection, and realized how shitty he was to her, which is why he got his soul. Now he can actually be selfless, and he has been, multiple times in this season.

My personal interpretation of soulless Spike is that vampires in the Buffyverse are a twisted and corrupted version of whoever the human used to be. William was the purest of romantics and an extremely sentimental of a person, therefore Spike’s demonic personality has this warped perception of love and pain being intertwined as long as there is passion there, which we see in his efforts to always win Drusilla back no matter how painful the relationship is, siring his mother somehow being a loving thing to do from his perspective (he’s also naive about what a vampire is at that point), and convincing himself in season 6 that Buffy loves him because she hurts him and he hurts her back. I also think Anya has gotten away with much worse than Spike, which she seemed to quickly realize and backpedaled on what she was saying. Yeah, Buffy was gonna kill her earlier this season but Anya was entirely guilty of killing a bunch of people. Her literal “job” is to trick people into saying a sentence that will destroy someone else’s life or lives and she chooses to do that all on her own. I can’t think of anything soul-having Spike has done under his own power that compares to the choices the character of Anya/Anyanka has made all through the show lol. She’s allowed to remain in the core fray because of her connection to Xander just as Spike is allowed that because of Buffy.

Yes. Anya said that, but quickly realized that she was being a hypocrite. Buffy came to save her life from those demons that were there as a hit on her life. She got to come back to Buffy's for protection. A murderous ex demon who slaughtered a whole room of frat boys... With Angel and Spike, their demons reflected who they were as a human, but turned up a supernatural notch. Liam was a womanizing badboy with deviant party ways. Angelus liked to just celebrate being a deviant. William was a bleeding soul. A gentle and hopeless romantic. Spike didn't want to be the same as his human self and went the extra mile to be that. Human Darla was a whore who suffered a horrible life, and was treated like used trash. She was discussed with the world. Vampire Darla wanted to exact revenge upon it and give the world hell, just like she got. Dru was a gifted person who was afraid of those gifts, because her family shamed her into believing they were evil and so therefore she was. She became a very high strung petrified mess. Angelus took her to a whole new level of crazy for kicks, then turned her to see the experimental results for himself. Dru turned out to relish in her gifts, and do it with the insanity of perverse pleasure. She reveled in the deviance and freedom of chaos with no apologies...unlike her human self. Each vampire has memories that are left inside the minds of their new hosts, like afingerprint. It is engrained in their dna. The demon choices which best emotion fuels their perversion and becomes that. Yes. Spike is the anomaly though. He was truly a gentle good soul, through and through. That episode that he revealed to Buffy that he got his soul back, said it all. He needed to get his humanity back because that chip reminded him of what he was, but the demon wouldn't let him be that. Buffy saw glimpses of the real him. The chip was like a tug of war between both William and Spike trying to have their way. That attempted rape scene displayed that. The demon spoke for Spike at the end of that episode by saying "Get that bitch what she deserves!" Yet the true motive behind it was all memory echoes of who William was, wanting to do the right thing. At least that's my take on what was trying to be conveyed at that time. Can't explain much past that, because......😈 oops. No spoilers. But he knows what I'm talking about. Lol.

I like to think each vamp is different based on who they were when they were turned, what their driving force/ desire was, and perhaps even their health when they turned. Harmony is almost exactly like her human self lol, despite being soulless. William sought out love and he retained that core part of himself as a vampire. Angelus wanted to have control and power (over his father and society) and was selfish and headonistic as a human, and all that amplified as a vampire. Dru was insane and psychic and that became amplified, she is childlike in many moments due to her mental damage. There was the psych vamp who seemed pretty normal. And the vamp who cut out his heart when his love died… Maybe Spike’s mother was too sick and frail to retain a big chunk of her humanity, so what was left and strongest (her love for her son) the demon was able to twist and manipulate inside her. As she dusts, its almost like her final look of love and peace is her true self, the last tiny bit of humanity after being turned. Perhaps the strength of the person dictates what the demon has to work with or how in control it is, vs the scraps of humanity and memories left behind after the turning?

A very good reaction video to one of the biggest eps of the season so far. It was interesting seeing Mackenzie's on-going reactions to William and his mother, to Wood trying to talk Giles into helping him (though she feels Spike should leave town, it didn't seem like she expected Giles to go along with the assassination attempt until he did). And I'm glad that we were able to see the whole "chip-soul-trigger" talk in Robin's office! Among the interesting discussion at the end was the nature of Spike's mother, and of Spike himself, as vampires. My personal guess/reconsiliation for Spike's specialness is that maybe William was so good-natured that he was able to influence the - possibly weaker than some? - demon that gained his memories more than most?

"You fired, girl!" 😂 That made me giggle. Mackenzie is absolutely right (Sorry if I spelt her name wrong). Spike has always felt love deeply, but in his demon form that love turned to obsession , with Drusilla, the Slayers, Buffy and even Angel in a way. Now he has his soul back he's able to understand the difference and you see that in the way he interacts with Buffy in season 7. A part of what they were before becoming a demon stays with them. For Angel, Liam was a drunken lout and was probably known for it in his village. As Angelus, he indulges in torture & torment because it makes him feel good, he lives in the moment which is very true for an addict and you see this sometimes in Angel's behaviour also. I 🖤 this episode.

Yeah Spike gets a “pass” but have that same attitude when it comes to Anya getting a pass, Faith getting a pass and especially Angelus getting a pass 😂

Spike was so enamored with Drucilla that he forgot all about Cicely. You'd think he go turn her or even kill her.

I always thought of the Buffy vamps like this ...... when a person gets turned and the demon takes over sometimes like in Angel's case. The demon over takes the human side completely (which is why the judge back in season 2 couldn't burn him but could burn other vamps) I think that because Liam wasn't really good to begin with that could be why. I also think cause Spikes mom is dying she's "weak" so the demon takes over..... As for love I think they can but only selfishly. Take the events of seeing red what Spike tries to do is terrible but it's probably something he's done dozens of times to dru. In lovers walk Spike says "I'm gonna do what I should have done in the first place. I'll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, torture her till she likes me again."

I really understand what Giles and Wood were trying to do, it made for a really interesting central conflict to the episode

The spike and mom thing is very close to the Lestat and his mom. Both mothers where close to death and the sons who recently been changed into vampires both changed their mothers as one of the first things they did. I bring this up because they are both set in the same era and both mothers are close in character and both tell their sons they want to go away and not stay with the son. The only difference is that Lestat don’t kill his mom but vampires are a little bit different in Ann rice world

Marti Noxon told James that they were trying to play with Spike having retained some remnant of his soul, when giving him notes/feedback. A lot of the writers said this. I think David Fury said this in the commentary for this episode.

Hey! I think Spike's mum did love him but I think she did have resentment towards him like Mackenzie said, probably due to her being ill and also because of the time period they were in were she was the quiet, humble, doting mum. Becoming a vampire released all her pent up frustration. The weird sexual awkwardness was definitely NOT required in my opinion!

ah man I forgot how heartbreaking this episode is... Kyles Shirt is making it better tho :) And... Spike was a soulless vampire when he tuned his mom and he was so feeling and hurt by what she said.. Spike was always a little different even before the Soul. And more things I´ll say later :) Ps. the bomb is very petty

I think that when you see a vampire who seem to be feeling or expressing love, it doesn’t mean they kept their humanity… i think vampire love is more of a selfish love. That’s why spike went to get a soul after he tried to rape buffy, because he knew that his « love » was unhealthy. He wanted it to be real …

I’m surprised there’s no reaction or comment on that call from a certain someone from LA.

I'm pretty sure that Spike's mom was super tired of him. She hinted early that she wanted him to get a girl already and move on. So, I think all she said as a demon was true, in a way. But she would never have said it as a human as mother's always defend their children no matter what (even if they are tired of their bloody awful poetry). As for Giles, I think he was wrong. He didn't try to solve the problem. But in the end he accidentally did, as Spike now is cured and isn't triggered by that song anymore.

I always thought that Angel and Spike were metaphors for different addictions. Angel is a metaphor for a recovering alcoholic, while Spike is a metaphor for a sex addict. That's why all of Spike's issues have sexual disfunction at their root. Even his mother questioned his sexuality.

Giles: We're at war and you're a general! You need to start acting like one! Buffy: Arrest this man. Track down his co-conspirator, have a court-martial assembled and firing squad picked out. Giles: .... Bugger.

Vampires in the Buffyverse are soulless, demonic reflections of themselves. It's the reason why Angelus is so much more evil than Spike, because Liam the human was so much more evil than William the human. Angel's human self was a drunk, violent, sexual assaulting bastard. Spike's human self was a meek, mild-mannered and gentle poet.

Its not that spike can love even as a demon. Spike is obsessed. He is passionate for sure. But its love turned to obsession. Its love in its worst form. Its just like with buffy, he perceived it at love, but he stalked her, obsessed with her and well, ends up in seeing red. The demon takes the personality and spike was full of love and passion before, so he still is as a demon, but in a twisted way. Even with drusila, after sobbing for losing her he searched her to "torture untill she likes him again". Spike is a very complex character, its what I like about him. Its great story telling

Send one of your biggest weapons away, during War?

Approaching the end Been a fun ride

Scooby Gang, get ready and lets save Kyle, escord him out of the cemetary :) hi guys, thanks alot for another great episode of Slayerverse ^^

I feel if the situation was reversed,(Wood killing spikes mom) The outrage would still be the same. just my take on this. Vampires are previous human beings. It would make sense them retaining there personality when they were alive. The demon being the alter ego, the unconscious. inner being that says and does whatever, that the surface part would hesitate on. Amplify is a good word to use. Solid episode

When the video started, I thought Kyle had a "man bun", but his hair was NOT that long last video, so my first thought was it was fake. Turns out it was a tombstone. I apologize, Kyle, for thinking you wore a fake "man bun".

One of my favorite episodes of the last season.

I think that Spike turning his mother was purely a selfish/soulless thing to do - The love and resolving the issues he had, with what he did, and what she did in response came after he got the soul

1:43

Kyle @21:37 ... Yup, Yup 🤐

7:11 couple goals lol are u sure but yeah we all love them

I wondered what would've became of Spike's mom if she had gotten her soul back. Smh..SMH... so sad.

Oh come on guys, doesn't *every* piece of late-20th-Century fiction dealing with magic name a character Crowley? Like, read a book! 🤣

More than anything I hate that Buffy says she would have let Dawn die. It runs contradictory to the completion of her arcs in Season 5 and Season 6. The Spike and Robin stuff also rubs me the wrong way. The season is just SO Spike heavy and Robin's story just ends up being all about Spike and how great he is.

Ahhh i really want to watch the next episodes' reactions because... 😭😭😭

Where is this week's episode?

One more time, in this episode you have something this show does really well, that is perspectives. Because this episode there's no absolute right and wrong. All of them, have pros and cons. Buffy has been forced into this general role, where she has all this charges to train, but the thing is... She's not just in charge, she's the one who has to protect them, cause poor girls they can have some training, but they no match if more than one vampire appears, even Buffy struggles with the Uber-vamp. So i believe we can understand what that's like. It must be overwhelming to have to take care of all of them, and who's the only besides her and Willow (of course) that can protect them in a fighting kinda of way? Spike. So even though he is a nuclear bomb, truth is... Can we blame Buffy for wanting him around for the selfish reason of wanting a break? And of course having a connection even, if toxic with him? Now speaking about selfish... Wade is just complete vendetta, he couldn't care less about the war, so he just said enough to make Giles agree. About Giles, he always been the watcher, the one that advises, the one that stays in the sidelines guiding, and i believe that's the problem with him. In this episode he was willing to make a choice for Buffy, based only in what he wanted, and what he saw as correct. And that for me is the worst part. Cause he's been away for so long, the characters had to take care of themselves, and he comes in, honestly i feel like he doesn't belong. People don't really need their advise anymore, it doesn't mean that he can't have opinions, but he is not the one with the mantel of the watcher. They are not high school anymore. So what i like about this episode and this season, is the urgency in the enemy, the fact that they as we seen in this episode, begin to diverge in strategies, what is good for one is not good for the others. One word for all of them.... Communication. Love your reaction

LOVE THE NEW DIGS, Kile. 🌹💀🌹 ✨🕯️🕯️🕯️✨Oowh, made you look. "Hee hee." Giles, Daddy, Giles!?¿ Ohh, what¿?! SPIKEY!!?¿ SWEETY, CECILY IS NEVER GOOD ENOUGH FOR MY PRETTY PUNK, BLONDIE BEAR. 😱🧑🏼 Mother /Dru¿ 🤷🏻‍♀️ Yikes! 💗🌏💗✨👁️✨🤘🏻

Pls watch de season finale together

The "rules" tended to be used faster and looser as the show went on.

This exactly why watching Buffy nowadays doesn't work. People view a 90s series with all the knowledge of other shows created after it, or place aspects of society that have now changed on the time back then, basically people are watching a teen 90s show as fully formed adults and not simply taking in the universe as is and going along for the ride with these characters. It's one of the reasons I truly HATE Netflix, 90s shows should stay in the 90s or for people who will seek it out specifically and buy the DVDs. Too many people who actually would never have watched the show back then, feel free to casually watch it now and comment, not appreciating how exceptional it was for its time. More importantly how fans of the show at the time actually had to put in effort when they liked a series, wait a year or so per season, wait for and only able to read magazine articles about the show or actors, wait for them to ever appear on TV shows (which was rare) for interviews, order and wait for months to years for any merchandise. It was a different time and is not comparable to now. At All.

Well, Spike is no longer a bomb and I feel like they probably could have done that without trying to kill him.

really? zero reaction to Fred?

😅😮

"Have you heard my speeches?" Sadly, Buffy, yes. Pretty good episode. Must be really lonely.

I get that Spike has a soul now and you can argue he's not the same person....but he STILL continues to wear the coat of the woman he killed. That's really shitty of him. I think that Wood was wrong in this episode, but having to fight alongside someone wearing your dead mother's coat is not good...

I always supported most of Buffy's decisions but never supported letting Spike live. He should've been dusted seasons ago, so many people would still be alive. It's heartbreaking. She let him live before the chip; only truly trying to kill him twice. With a chip, he still wanted to kill, she let him live... again. He also wanted to kill and keep his trophies from past kills with a soul, and yet again, she lets him live. It reminds me of soap operas where fans/critics like the actor so much that somehow we keep a villain around for years and pretend he's not a horrible person, even tho he should've died long ago. It's stupid.

Flashbacks in the show are terrible. They struggle with finding the balance between vampires in the past without a soul and not making them seem evil so the audience doesn't stop rooting for them. I think it's the same with some of the Angel scenes like the episode where Angel and his dad had a fight. Sometimes I wish they would keep the vampire metaphor and don't try to flesh out or try to make the vampire seem more human.

One of the reasons I can’t stand spike. Him as a demon is super weak. Either bad acting or bad writing IMO. Always made me cringe when he got a soul and he was basically the same, more or less. Pretty weak IMO