Thanks! The Dundee quote has become so synonymous with messers now it always makes me laugh.

Messer is just Knife in english. Kriegsmesser translates to Warknife.

Absolutely. One has to just take a look at the Emslie Typology to see the variations in messers

I agree with you 100%. This is just a short-form media presentation so all of that nuance does not fit in a KZfaq short, and it won't keep people's interest who are just swiping through. A study like that is best shown in a regular long-form youtube video, which we do as well.

ok but it becomes impossible to look up a specific type of weapon because people would rather use one word for 5 clearly different swords than just make new terms for the sake of organization

Guilds formed later in german history with growing population. (look up *the Hanse* for further information.

This has got to be the most detailed answer I've ever read on the subject. Thank you so much for shining a light on this.

And then you factor in all the wars around the times these langmessers became popular (Italian Wars lasted for 65 years), and the fact that you had to buy your own weapon, and you get to the conclusion this was a matter of supply (mass production was still not a thing). It's faster and cheaper to make a good langmesser hilt than a good sword (hilts on swords, even longswords, were more complex in design and details by the time the langmesser type you show was used).

Thanks for the input and providing some awesome insight!

German History Nerd Here: The Messer (German for knife) was really creaed by knifesmiths as a Grey area to make swords. Idk If Most Messer are single edged because Most knifes are (Most people would call a Double edged knife a dagger After all, which could be an explanation). But yeah, kinda funny hat even in medieval Times Germany were too focused on Rules.

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply. Is there a source or sources I can reference? I would like to make a full video on this.

the council of Cologne 15th century: "ouch gebiedent unse heren, dat geyn man, hey sij wer hey si, dach noch nacht geyne swerde noch ungewoenliche lange metzer noch andere ungewoenliche gewer mit namen heragen, gros noch cleyne, poelexgen noch hemer, wie man die nomen mach, dragen en sall noch ym nae dragen laissen in genre wis, id en were dan sache, dat yemans aventz offenbair mit eyrne luchten gienge. English: Our lords commanded, that no man, whoever he may be, neither day or night shall carry or be allowed to carry a sword nor unusual long knife or other unusual long weapons, namely military axes, poleaxes or hammers, whatever their name may be, with the sole exception that it is openly in the evening with a lamp. For the banning of both this is one of the best examples in law and is one of several passed by the same legislative body.

As of right now, it is all still speculation on all sides. The "knife" theory just seems to not be very supported for a weapon this big because it was used by professional soldiers just like longswords were. One-handed messers were more commonly found with citizens.

It doesnt Just Look good. Its a devastating weapon for cutting, without sacrificing too much of its thrusting capability. The "Nagel" (German for Nail) gives very good Hand protection (its the Metal Bit sticking Out of the Side of the crossguard). And the full Tang makes the handle very durable. Together with the German zweihander my Favorite sword (im biased tho)

I didnt know that. I'll read up on that more, thank you for sharing!

I do like the VB feder. It has held up to so much use

The hype vs the chill. Makes perfect historical sense. Now which one was which?

obviously when you look back you can obviously see that messers were mostly single edged swords with the full tang visible, but some people say that there were messers with two edges, therefore the only differentiator was the handle. ME PERSONALLY i think the first definition should just be recognized as fact for the sake of simplicity and organization. but modern and old sword terminology fucking sucks

In theory, both cut pretty much the same. But I'll be honest, my kriegsmesser cuts better than any of my longswords. I wanted one because it looked more like an Okatana

Pavel moc makes this kriegsmessers

In theory

Thank you, will do

All of it is speculation TBH. We just like to have fun in the modern era piecing it together. But the sword vs knife law does not account for the many different kinds of messers (which are obviously swords) which is why many don't buy it as the reason for the existence.

@@ludusferocia8696 Take a step back a minute and think about the culture you are looking at. The longsword (obviously) derives from the normal double edged sword, which at about 800 AD or so looks like what you call a Viking sword today, but has a history and progression going back to the bronze age. While it was a common sight amongst soldiers throughout Europe, the idea comes from the Mediterranean, ultimately. The Messer derives from Germanic single-edged weapons and tools. Because the technology of making is the same as long knives, and regular town blacksmiths at the time had to know how to make long knives, it would have been much cheaper to have a single edged weapon like a messer made for farmers who wanted to protect their homes and livelihoods. You have to remember, that many of the 17thC standing armies in europe ultimately arose from the need of farmers to defend their villages three hundred or more years earlier. So you see over time not only an increased reliance on "pike and bills", and on ranged weapons - the preferred weapons of the commoner - but in some places very rudimentary sword styles being developed as the practice of sword fighting matured in areas of low wealth. So the messer has a similar hilt design to a knife because it literally is derived from a method of knife making, from areas of western Europe that had large populations of male farmers who at times needed to fight wars. Perhaps in your interest would be to look at etymology, which might save you some time from rummaging through old laws and making wild guesses based on little knowledge. 👍

@@adifferentangle7064 While I think much of what you said is true, I think you are missing context in two places: The evolution of the weapon and its uses in battle and the point of view from a fencer or fighter. The origin of the messer is most likely as you said. It was born from the cultures and demographics that needed something more rudimentary for warfare as well as self defense (and arguably, agrigulcutral) This explanation alone does not explain the differences between a "sword" and a "long knife", nor does it take into account the evolution of the intended use of the messer over time. In the time of the messer and kriegsmesser's relevance, people knew that these were swords. Langes messers were used in similar fashion to how other one-handed swords were used and there are entire manuscripts (that I and our club study) that back this up. Many professional soldiers and even nobility carried messers (of higher quality) as their side-arm of choice. What may have started as a "peasant's big knife" was a well respected side-arm in very little time. The existence of the kriegsmesser (Literally "War Knife") alone makes the "sword vs knife" theory very questionable since professional soldiers usually the ones wielding them. From artwork to mention of them in combat, studying where these swords came from is important but without the context of how they were used/regarded, you only get one side of the picture. Then there is the MANY variations of messers, many of them with blade-shapes designed for combat. We see this in the modern messer classification chart, the elmslie typology. It is doubtful that laws were made controlling carry based on handle construction alone rather than length and blade-shape. Messers is a point of study for our club and we understand them from a fighter's perspective. You can understand a historical weapon uniquely when you put it in your hand. I can definitely say with confidence that langes messers, especially those with large cross guards and a nagel, were built for dispatching fleshy beings. Their distal taper, handling, defensive guard, length, all lean towards this through their evolution. People of this time, especially those in authority, would have known this. Even historically, documented instructions from Talhoffer to Lecküchner describe their use not just as improvised tools of the masses, but as effective, purpose-driven swords. Messers are often times called dussacks or hunting swords as is.

@@ludusferocia8696 I thought i directly addressed the evolution of the Messer. I look at history very differently, i guess because I work on 400 year old wooden objects, and often have to date and place them. Your context of how it is used and works is only relevant to the actual use and implementation of the weapon. However you are making a very common mistake most people make - imparting your present day mindset on people of the past. One thing you can guarantee, regardless of culture, if you see a huge single edged blade made like a knife, it is supposed to be a multi purpose killing tool made for the masses. The Messer is no different. Due to its size it's only appropriate for battlefield applications, which we know it was used for. There are a number of different types of Chinese Dao which were similar in application, designed to be made cheaply and supplied to quickly trained troops in order to have them as effective as possible in a short amount of time, on a limited budget. In order to truly test the efficacy of your messer, you will have to test it in a group of at least fifty men, with pikes and crossbows. I don't think there is any historical reference for it being used outside of that battlefield paradigm, but if you have reference to court proceeding of people duelling with them, feel free to share it.

Against unarmored opponents... Perhaps? Against armored opponents... Nope...

Hell, even the very name "Messer" just plain means "knife" in German, and the sword-length version was dubbed "Kriegsmesser", a "war knife", that couldn't be more clear than that...

But for most of the high-late medieval times commoners had access to and used swords especially late medieval times Also it’s super inconsistent certain cities might have only nobles or people with licenses able to carry a sword in public but on the other hand there were lots of places that required every able bodied man to carry a sword

They are both very similar actually. Thrusting with the KM was no different in penetration than our longswords. I will say that the KM I have cuts a little better BUT that is because the longsword I have came with a very so-so edge. I have a feeling that if I sharpened it properly, it would cut close to the KM

​@@ludusferocia8696 they are very Close, but the longsword is defenitly Superior in the thrust (No curve and Double Edge Always Beats single edged curved swords for Stabs). But the Messer ist the better Cutter for the Dame reasons.

I agree that the messer is a superior Everyday-Carry sword to the longsword. But the longsword and Kriegsmesser are very close in weight, length, and maneuverability. They could fill very similar roles.

The vast majority of longswords are neither “heavy” nor are they “clunky”

Longswords are neither heavy nor clunky, I mean melee weapons in general aren’t very heavy or clunky most of the heavier polearms being under 5kg I think the average weight for a longsword was about 1.5kg lol

Discussing and disagreeing about history is hardly "shitting on ancestry". This is how people learn (including myself) about facts that are lost to time and of which me must continue to research. That being said, I disagree with you. The sword I am holding in the other hand is a longsword, not an arming sword. At one time, Kriegsmessers and Longswords (such as the Type VIII) were used in the same period. Their origin may have been separated by centuries but their use in combat overlaps. In fact, we didn't see a huge decline in longsword popularity until other battlefield swords gained popularity. There were still people teaching longsword classes (recreationally) in the Renaissance. Messers were used from the 1300s to 1500s and Longswords, as early as 1100 up to the same. The uchigatana and kriegsmesser were most likely used in similar fashion, be it the latter was sometimes used with a targe or target shield (by the landsknecht) Armor was indeed used in the Renaissance period. It had just changed due to the shift in warfare and firearms tech. Full plate harness use declined and so melee weapons most likely changed too because of this (and advancement in manufacturing and metallurgy.

@@ludusferocia8696 landknitters weren't given armors, for the majority. they were regular paysans armed in quite a rush, depending on their own budget. And the landlord gave them weapons according to his budget. We still have the halberd given to our ancestor when he became a lord. And yes, periods were not a cut, changes came gradually, so yes, you're right for the overlapse, i just hadn't the word to said it because i'm not talking in my native language here. But the idea is still the same : the messers prefigure the rapiers and sabers, and his apparition coincide with the end of the longsword. renaissance is only 2 or 3 century long, medieval period a thousand year. At the end of the renaissance, saber was the common weapon in army, and only a century later, only cavalry was using it. napolonian armys haden't any armor at all, saber only for ranked and cavalry, bayonets for everyone else. no more longsword. Exactly the same with the blunderbuss : you can find modern blunderbuss now, but they are so rare... longsword was obsolete in the same exact way. Palestinian fighter use the sling. Is the sling a 20 century weapon ? not really. still, the guild theory is wrong. Time and technology change is the reason why the blades and their handles changed.

@@MalucoLapin No worries at all! I did not realize it was not in your native tongue. I am seeing that a lot of people have information on the guild theory being wrong. And I honestly can see why there are problems with that theory. I also just dont buy the theory that a kriegsmesser and a longsword differ because of legalities when in fact, kreigsmessers were used by professional soldiers just like longswords were. In terms of timeframes, Kriegsmessers and Longswords were not only produced at the same time, but there was an overlapping period in which both swords were used as professional weapons of war, not one being antiquated. Sure, the longsword at this point was way older, but the differences between the two swords are minimal in terms of use. You can feel this when you fight with either. But if you take something like a small sword, rapier, or even a hanger, a longsword would feel quite antiquated standing next to those. A kreigsmesser may be a form of evolution from the longsword towards the saber, but there was a good gap of time where both of these swords were still relevant as weapons of war.

Many kriegsmessers and messers had a sharpened back edge, or the "short edge". It just didnt go all the way down the back. There is speculation if the Langes Messer was a workaround that law but it does not explain why kriegsmessers exist as they were definitely used by professional soldiers.

What's the difference between a sword and a knife?

How so?

@@ludusferocia8696 You're information is baseless and has no proof. Other more reputable KZfaq channels have said it might have been that because of how it's made, it's technically a knife. They have sources to back them up. Your information essentially came out of your arse.

@@Revon-Feuer Sooo let me get this straight. You're saying I was wrong for saying the thing you said other channels said? Must be new to short-form content.

@@ludusferocia8696 you're literally dense.

Shut up proto furry

Prove it