Thanks to Skillshare for sponsoring this episode. Goto skl.sh/thecynicalhistorian4 to get a 2-month free trial 2:43 - that should say 1866, not 1566 (thx Piloulegrand) I made that documentary about the death of the Western genre: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rpyqd5Skz9SnnIE.html

'You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off' Michael Caine in the original 1960s Italian Job movie sprang to mind when Butch and Sundance blew the train 😀. Both films are favourites from my youth.

Have you read the book by his sister written in the late 1970s? She say her brother died in 1937 of pneumonia. She was a pious Mormon woman not likely to embellish. It's very realistic and not very dramatic. She said that she saw him in the 1920s in utah at their family home. During his visit her father asked him if he had killed anyone. He replied something like this. That he had not personally killed anyone but his men were not so easy to control and some good men were murdered. she included mundane but interesting details like "Bob came first to the ranch cabin outside town because that's where we lived when he left us. But we had moved to a larger home in town". "Bob, (Butch) saw my son working in the field and he and Bob drove into town". His father sent for Lula Butch's sister to help prepare a dinner for guests which was not uncommon. When she got there she noticed a Model A Ford next to the house. When she came inside he said "Lula do you know who this is?" she said he had a family look to him and her father said "this is your brother Bob". She said the 3 of them talked late into the night. She said that Bob's biggest regret was the pain he had brought to his mother who had died during the years he was gone. Lula asked about the two men who died in Bolivia. He said that a mine boss who knew the outlaws and the desire to go straight had identified the two men as Butch and Sundance as a favor to them. Butch and Sundance split up not long after that with the agreement to meet in Juarez in 3 months. Butch waited there a long time but Sundance never showed. He told his father that he had not stolen so much as a pin since then. Lula never said where he went after that. She refused to say where he is buried because she didn't want him made into the Robin Hood because he was not and she wanted him to finally have the peace in death that he never had as an outlaw.

Having grown up in the 50’s and 60’s I’ve always thought that television saturated the traditional western theme. There were well written shows like Rawhide and Have Gun Will Travel but there were many forgettable shows too. Sergio Leone’s Fist full of Dollars in 1964 changed the westerns landscape forcing Hollywood to adapt. The social upheavals of the late 60’s also allowed writers and film makes more freedom to move in different directions from previous themes and concepts. There were good films and bad films but it was a very creative time.

Good video. I really need to see this movie and I'm glad it's at least not as inaccurate as many other Westerns.

You did the misake with the wrong century again, I don't believe he was born in 1566 :D Nonetheless, very interesting video as always, this is your format I like the most :)

Rain drops keep falling on my head.

Damn I didn't know Butch Cassidy was over 300 years old when he died

This might take a bit more research, but what about taking a historical event and comparing several popular depictions of it from film and TV? That way, instead of going through a movie depicting many other events, you could just select the relevant section. The gunfight at the OK corral might be a good event for that since it's heavily mythologized and depicted in all sorts of ways (heck, it was even the basis for episodes of Star Trek and Doctor Who back in the 1960s). You wouldn't have to review entire movies like Wyatt Earp, Tombstone, My Darling Clementine, Gunfight at the OK Corral, Hour of the Gun, etc. just the parts you wanted to deal with. Just a thought. As always, I enjoy your perspective on history and it's depiction in the media.

1) *Rain drops keep falling on my head* 2)The reason *Midnight Cowboy*won is because it was avantguard for its day. 3) *You Tube;Jerry Skinner* says that Cassidys sister said Butch lived a long life and she knew where he was buried.

If you haven't already covered it, I'd be interested in your thoughts on 'The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford', as long as you're on the topic of deconstructing Westerns. It's a fascinating film, besides being beautifully shot, and if ever a movie gave lie to the 'noble bandit' myth - this one is it.

CynicalHistorian good job. I'm in my late 60's and have a sentimental spot for westerns as it was something that I enjoyed with my dad. In accuracies aside I find 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid' extremely entertaining even now.

Midnight Cowboy was a great film. Dustin Hoffman was great as well as young Jon Voight were both amazing in that film. The story was flimsy but the performances really carried the movie.

I've heard enough debates about who should have won what oscar to the point that I'm bored by them, and I have never heard someone say Midnight Cowboy winning best picture was "one of the worst" snubs ever.

Love this series! Would you consider putting together an episode on “A Bridge Too Far”? It’s my favorite historical film, and I feel Market Garden is quite possibly one of the most important overlooked operations of world war 2 by the general public. Thanks, and keep up the great content!

I'm familiar with the story from William Goldman's perspective, that is to say, I've read what he wrote about it. William Goldman loved the story and was trying to make as honest of an account as he could. If we accept that was attempting an honest accounting of the events and we accept that there are inaccuracies, then I think we can use the story around the story to highlight how difficult it is to be historically accurate in a Hollywood movie. I think it is fair to say that it is nearly impossible to make a 100% accurate movie, regardless of the level of sincerity of the filmmakers.

The ranch is still there on Patagonia, in a town called Cholilla. Is an attraction for tourist.

By finding this channel today I feel I've stepped into a gold mine of great historical videos.

I don´t kwow if you read in spanish, but I strongly recommend you the book "Wanted in Patagonia" (Buscados en Patagonia) written by Marcelo Gavirati. He made an extensive historycal research of the years that Butch, Sundance and Ethel spent here in Argentina. Those years were ignored in the movie and they actually leave a mark here. They went by fake names. Butch was "James Ryan", Sundance was "Henry Place" with his wife "Ethel Place".

@4:07 Wow, Butch Cassidy and the 40 thieves.

Oh my god i can't wait for a Billy the Kid episode. The movie has its inaccuracies but damn is it good. Well the directors cut anyway, but thats Peckinpah for you. Always getting screwed by the studio. I already agree on the death of the west in film thesis. That film is rather cynical. Also really Cipher? Midnight Cowbow as one of the worst winners? More then Shakespeare In Love or Crash? I've never actually heard that complaint before. I'd agree with Butch being a better film though.

I quit at the extended bicycling scene. Not the tape I thought I was renting.

Love your work, Cypher!!!

Please do more "Western" type films. I love them so. Have you ever thought about doing videos on games and authenticity? I've been planning one on Red Dead Redemption 2 forever now. There's a lot to talk about with that game and its portrayal of history.

Not bad. Just a couple things. I seem to recall Anne Bassett's stomping grounds were Browns Park, AKA Brown's Hole, in Colorado, not Hole In the Wall. One man who was touted as a returned Butch was William Phillips who died in Spokane in the 30s. I've seen photos of him and he did strongly resemble Butch and he knew a fair bit about the Wild Bunch and country in Wyoming. His widow, however, stated that while he knew Butch, he was not that man.

Good job, You would make a very entertaining lecture speaker. Thanks for your work. You make me want to learn more about Butch and Sundance. Yours would be a good extra features to the DVD.

Old Western movies are making a slow comeback and you can probably see some of that comeback with video games maybe games like red dead revolver and red dead redemption 1 and 2 and gun maybe The sun has not set on the old west

Nice video! Thanks for pointing out the historical inaccuracies. It is still a great movie, though! But it is not at all scientifically accurate to categorically dismiss all claims that at least Butch Cassidy might not have died in Bolivia. It is true - claiming that historical characters have survived the date of their official death, is a veritable cottage industry. But the case of Butch Cassidy is far more plausible than others. The alleged bodies of the two outlaws have never been positively identified and there never was an inquest. The Bolivian authorities also never provided death certificates. And the remains which have been dug up in 1992 and then examined by an American forensic anthropologist, are definitely not the bones of Butch Cassidy or of the Sundance Kid. There is a suggestion that they belong instead to a German guy. It is is of course possible that the locals made a mistake and the wrong grave was opened. But there are also many credible eyewitnesses who claimed to have been visited by Butch Cassidy many years after his alleged death. The most credible witness is Cassidy's own sister Lula, who went on record in front of a camera! Their father was still alive, and he accepted the guy who turned up on their doorstep as his son Butch! Lula recalled detailed dialogs and came across as absolutely level headed and not the least bit senile, despite her old age. Why would she have blatantly lied? But there are also other witnesses, and many of them knew Butch well. A former girlfriend also told in front of a camera, that she met Butch Cassidy in the 1920s. That is a whole bunch of very credible witnesses! If they told some incorrect things they probably wanted to protect Cassidy. The alleged survival of Cassidy is in a very different category than Elvis sightings. I also think that Butch Cassidy had a very good motive for going into hiding and for staying officially dead after his death had been declared by the Bolivians. Otherwise he could never have hoped to live a normal life. And unlike others who claimed to be famous outlaws - for example Brushy Bill and his best friend who claimed to be Billy the Kid and Jesse James respectively - the guy who visited family members and friends and presented himself as Butch Cassidy, never went public - which is of course the prudent thing to do. And therefore we can exclude monetary and other motives like being famous for presenting himself as Butch Cassidy. This mystery will probably never be solved. His bones could still be found. However, Lula claimed that she knew where her brother is buried. But she declined to be divulge the location in order to discourage bone and treasure hunters. Considering these arguments, it is a totaly unjustified knee jerk reaction to dismiss all claims of Cassidy's survival as a pile of horse poo without even looking into the finer details of the case. Even Wikipedia, which usually sides with the sceptics and debunkers of unorthodox claims, declares cautiously that the case of Butch Cassidy's death has not been solved conclusively.

The westerns I grew up watching were mostly late 60s onward. Relatively bleak and dirty compared to what had come before. So I've got little tolerance for the John Wayne stuff. This movie seemed particularly modern to me when I first saw it... the way the characters talked and acted, the comedy elements. I never thought any of it might be accurate historically.

I would like to see more stuff set during this time period

Regarding claims that Robert Leroy Parker, alias Butch Cassidy, may have returned to his home base in the 1920s, whether they be true or not, I distinctly remember seeing an alleged witness on UK TV in the 1970s. Interviewed by British journalist and TV presenter Alan Whicker, on his long running Whicker's World, a kind of travel documentary show, was an elderly lady who claimed to be a much younger sister of the famous outlaw Butch Cassidy. According to the old lady, she was just a child at that time and had never met her much older brother before as he had left home long before she was born. According to the old lady, a strange man showed up at the Parker family home one day, and he was introduced to her as her famous older brother. The strange man spent several hours with the Parker family and then departed. And she would never see him again. While the old lady seemed honest and sincere, and in full possession of all her faculties I am am not saying that her claims were true, I simply don't know!

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. This was a great movie. Thanks, Cynical!

Please do 'Death Hunt' with Charles Bronson and Lee Marvin. (yes, it actually claims to be based on true events)

Didn’t know Butch Cassidy was born in 1566 lol!

I hate to be that guy, but, “Queen” Ann Basset lived in Brown’s park, at the corner of Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado. The Hole-In-The-Wall was in central Wyoming. If you find pictures of her when she was young, she bares a striking resemblance to the known pictures of Etta Place.

Butch's sister said he came home and died and was buried in a secret grave after he died in 1937.

THE WILD BUNCH 1969,should have at least got nominated for best picture.

"Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" never purported to be a historical accurate account in all details, despite the "Most of what follows is true" at the start of the film. It is nevertheless a film which (IMHO) stands the test of time. Over 50 years later, it stands as a gem of Hollywood's craft as a buddy movie, a Western & a tale of 2 outlaws who recognised that their way of life was ending.

Yo Cypher have you ever thought of doing a based on a true story video on the the 2006 film The Good Shepherd? I recently watched it and as a writer of spy fiction I would be interested to hear your opinion of it.

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid may be somewhat short on facts but I still Love that movie!!!! Rain drops a falling on my head......................

1:29,DAMN SHE WAS BEAUTIFUL!

Um midnight cowboy is widely considered to be one of the best best Picture winners ever

Another good western is tombstone

I still think they should have called Star Trek III: In Search Of Spock

0:58 is this an easter egg??? Why put your picture in there?? (with a silly mustache on top of it... ;)

I know it's not very (at all) historical, but what's your take on Jim Jarmusch's Dead Man (1995)?

You should check out the film Zachariah. It's one of those westerns made between 69' and 75' (1971) and it has some heavy LQBT undertones. Full disclosure I've never seen it and don't know how bad or good it is but you may be into it

I've never seen Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in full, but you shouldn't be too harsh on Midnight Cowboy. For all its faults, it's one of the best movies imho in the "buddies" genre. Or is the cowboy in its title too much on the nose for you? If you really think about it, the titular character Joe Buck could very well be the perfect satirical symbol for The Death of the Western.

I think you and Mark Felton are the only ones whose videos I automatically like and comment on without watching all the way through.

It felt like th audio for the video was slow anyone else think that?

pinkertons!!!

Tell us about eric hobsbawm!

Midnight Cowboy > BCaTSK Fuck the Academy but they got that one right

Holy hell, not even 30 minutes ago?! But wait... how did Cypher post his comment 2 days ago?

Just maybe you could do a few Mel Gibson movies that I find fairly good, overlooking that it's still Hollywood. Meaning not totally historically trash. I'm thinking of Apocalypto, Passion of the Christ (re faithful to the Bible?), Hacksaw Ridge, The Bounty. At least some good stuff in these, I think.

What do you thnk about the movie "Blackthorne"?

Did the average American differentiate between the Spanish American War and the Philippine War?

Do 'In Cold Blood'

THE WILD BUNCH 1969 should have at least got a nomination for best picture and william holden best actor.screw midnight cowboy.

southern wyoming some people get all the luck

you didn't enjoy Midnight Cowboy?

Regardless the film was made to be entertaining and not a documentary. You expect way to much for a movie. Also on the point of relatives and or those who could know of the people and or events, dismissal out of hand is not proper. Some events and peoples acts are ones that closer to the event are embarrassing or incriminating. Time and old age allow those who in hindsight will want to tell others of the events. I personally know of an event that for 100 + years was disputed factually and was confirmed personally by a Diary of one of the protagonists found hidden in their old home during demolition. The book and cover note easily dated from the period and matched most of the accepted lore about this event. The find wasn't made public as there would have been to much pain and aggro raised by the event that had passed by generations ago.

does pucky mean what i think it means?

17:44,BOLIVIA,NOT MOLIVIA.

The Wild Bunch is so much better than Butch & Sundance. Sorry, not sorry.

Midnight cowboy was a great movie though

If you haven't already covered it, I'd be interested in your thoughts on 'The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford', as long as you're on the topic of deconstructing Westerns. It's a fascinating film, besides being beautifully shot, and if ever a movie gave lie to the 'noble bandit' myth - this one is it.