That's why I think the Morgana escapes part is the worst part of Persona 5. Ryuji get's made fun of mostly by Morgana for the entire game, but suddenly, when he's getting some confidence and is full of Morganas shit and is striking back, Morgana literally pussies out and leaves, indirectly causing the Thieves downfall. Edited: Well commented to quickly

For me when you have butt monkey character it might get to a point a where you wish they win for once or more often than constantly getting shit on, and Ryuji and to a bit lesser extent Yosuke from Persona 4 is a good example of it. Characters like that get more punishment than they really deserve.

Good video. I appreciate that you don’t have to have prior knowledge about the games discussed to understand what you’re talking about. I also liked how your conclusion really brought home all of your examples of what makes a good buttmonkey. Looking forward to more videos.

Yo, Great video. I absolutly love Persona 5 , but you sir took the words right of my mouth. I always felt a bit off whenever i viewed a "ryuji is a buttmonkey" scene.

I think ryuji is actually supposed to be a woobie himself, the problem is just the fact that the player can never tell morgana to fuck off.

11:49 Yes, in Japanese sociery standing out, attracting attention to yourself and not being sufficiently respectfull are seen as extremely bad behaviour. What I don't get is why did they make a game all about ignoring sicietal norms and still punish Ryuji for it

Glad i went backwards in your catalog.

The argument between Morgana and Ryuji was better handled in the anime, that's how bad it was.

Japanese Society condemns people who cannot fit a group and who stand out too much so the loud and vulgar boy sitting on the lower branch of the tree is probably perfectly reasonable in their book

To be frank, Atlus’ history with these moments is common within modern Persona games; they’re way too in love with the hot springs scene from Persona 3, to the point that it already wore out its welcome in Persona 4, and then becoming the infamous part of Persona 5 Strikers, due to how contrived this scene was (this even happened at the same hot springs as the P3 cast). It’s also caused Persona 4’s buttmonkey to be a base breaking character: he’s supposed to be unlikable enough to root for his abuse, but what he goes through at times feels undeserved, like Chie basically making him go broke to purchase an expensive outfit and showing no guilt for it.

One thing I think you forgot to mention that makes Lorenz and Ryuji different is how any serious moments are played; while there’s the infamous scene where members of the cast beat up Ryuji for surviving - which feels like it’s in poor taste due to these being HIS FRIENDS being upset HE’S ALIVE - in any scene that’s a serious exploration of Lorenz’s character, there’s none of that humor, or at least very little. A scene that’s a part of his Supports with Raphael, the humor comes from Raphael’s lack of awareness that Lorenz is feeling awkward sitting next to him, for reasons related to their shared history. It’s an added question of the most important part of comedy, timing. Also, yeah, I’ve read that Japanese, or at least traditional Japanese, have a greater emphasis on politeness than here in America; it’s considered insulting to even address someone without proper honorifics unless you know them *really* well. Meanwhile, Morgana’s redeeming quality over in Japan would be… he’s cute. That’d literally be it, Japan apparently has an obsession with cuteness to the point it can inserted unnecessarily in some aspects of life. Basically, Morgana would be considered a good buttmonkey over there because of his mascot status, which obviously doesn’t translate well overseas where no one cares that often about *MOE~* (referencing Ouran Host Club for the record).

Mass Effect definitely has two recurring buttmonkeys: Conrad Verner and Khalisah bint-Sinan al-Jilani. Conrad is likeable but a bit pathetic. You wonder if his wife actually exists, and he definitely goes too far in threatening Matriarch Aethyta in the second game. But then in the third game, he sacrifices his life for you or finds true love, and it's touching and feels earned. Khalisah, on the other hand, clearly has it in for you. Still, she has two rewards for players. Renegades can punch her in the gut (nice touch on her learning in the third game and forcing you to be on your toes!) while Paragons can eventually recruit her to the light side.

I think in the case of Ryuji is just the old stereotype of Japan bullying down on people that don't fit in japanese culture. You and many people, even those who watch a Lot of anime probably don't get it that much but Japanese normally hate people that are loud, individualist and extroverted in public spaces that are not "designed" for those purposes. And they specially hate japanese people that try to look like foreigners. Normally people in anime have hair of multiple colors for easiness of recognition, but Ryuji in canon dyed his hair down to seem Blonde, and that usually is look down upon in japanese culture because to them we foreigners are more common to be rebellious or delicuentes(I know, a mean stereotype but that is how it actually works). This is acknowledged Even more with Ann's character. She is part English and Even tough she seems very likable to Us the "player character" it is very obvious that outside of Shiho before we get to know her she thought to be a bitch by pretty much everyone in school all because she looks more western and we seem like a walking estereotype of everything problematic, check again and Even after Kamoshida confesses and we saw people apologising to Ann. We still see that outside the main group she has no other friends or si treated any better by japanese collegues.

I've seen so much anime that, the trope of the loud mouth vulgar character getting beat up, or punished in some way, I just think, it is what it is and I immediately forget it. It's why I never really thought Ryuji getting beat on a lot was a problem. It's a trope that Japanese companies do, and that's all it is. Does that mean it's good? Not at all. Tropes gets old and annoying after a while, and it's why we groan whenever we see it done again. I like Ryuji just as much as the next person, but I've just never personally found that much of a problem with the scenes where he gets beat up. If I don't find it funny, I forget about it. If others find a problem with a certain scene (i.e. Ryuji getting beat up after the cast thinks he died) I just chalk it down as an overused trope that's taken to the extreme, because Japanese studios love to exaggerate things for a gag, because that's what they find funny. Especially if it's done on a character who is vulgar like Ryuji, because Japan likes to prioritize politeness and typically don't really like those who are loud and abrasive. Although I like Mishima, most people don't and I can understand why they don't. For an example, you can make whatever choice you want to respond to him with, but if you're trying to max his confidant ASAP, the choices you wanna make are the ones where you have to stroke his ego and agree with his choices. And I think another reason why I don't find problem with how they handled Ryuji at times, is because I find Morgana to be an even bigger butt monkey. The cast makes fun him sometimes, they downplay what he's capable of, Ann always disses him whenever he's trying to hit on her, and there are plenty of times where Ryuji makes fun of Mona and he has to retaliate back. The stuff that happens to Ryuji I feel, doesn't ruin his character and it doesn't ruin the story. He still a character that overcomes his past of being beaten by shitty adults. He takes control of his life and take the step forward to what he really wants to do. I'm not saying your criticism doesn't make sense. Honestly, I can 100% see where you're coming from and can even agree in some ways. It's hard for me to explain myself, but best I can do is say that it's a trope in anime like media, that even anime fans are tired of. Keep doing what you're doing dude. I really enjoyed your videos on Mass Effect, and thought they were well made and well informed.

That was genuinely interesting AND kept my interest the whole time. Look forwarding to more content!

Atlus always makes the best friend the punching bag. I haven't played 1 or 2 yet but Junpei, Yosuke, and Ryuji have gotten so much shit, and a good majority of the time it's undeserved.

Never thought as Ryuji as the buttmonkey. I just loved the guy and so I thought they were trying to get him more sympathy for the people who didn't like his character. I wish the game didnt respect morgana so much and gave him the same treatment Ryuji got, Morgana feels like one of the devs promised their 6 year old son that they could have a self insert in the game.

It sounds to me like Morgana’s arc should’ve went from thinking they’re under appreciated, to genuinely having self doubt. That would’ve been more sympathetic

I made a whole video talking about how this trope is just an atrocious idea. To put how I see the trope simply, I find it cliche, pointless, annoying, unfunny, unpleasant, or all of the above.

I think we forget cutural context with ryuji he is someone who quite crashes with japanese values being loud and vulger is something highly discouraged in japan

Can I tell you a secret

Now THAT's the kind of hq shiaaaaat I like to see on KZfaq. You know your stuff, you love your games, you love to think, and it shows. Yes, each single video is a huge undertaking to produce and I sure hope you stick with it. Looking forward to the next one.

Can confirm: This man BIG gay

And I loved the videos can you do the Everyman trope

this video was really good!

This is a brilliant video. And your others are great. You deserve more subs.

16:22 How do you make a hatable character redeem themselves but stay fundamentally the same?

Don’t forget tingle

Hmm yes lore of the milhouse archetype

Awesome video Pik! Keep it up!

What us wrong with your lighting, in your saints row footage there is no shading nor shadow at all

I feel like hop from pokemon is a bad version of this trope

I have to say that I like Morgana more than Ryuji.