Finn doesn't do installations, He only does blogs, but recommends third party installers (for a kick back)

No! It does not worth it at all!

all this up-front honesty has confirmed the stupidity of wide scale adoption of solar

Mate. You don't get your money back from the batteries. They'll die before that.

@@KRM85 i got my money back in 5 1/2 years, my Tesla power wall 1, is 8 years old & still going, my two LG batteries were also 8 years old & were recently replaced due to a recall, they were working perfectly as well. You see, I don’t throw $30k away if I don’t do my research. For me, it’s an investment (which has paid off), it’s not for everyone & it’s NOT set & forget. I check the forecast everyday to make sure I maximise my savings, im retired & can do that, but a busy family will not have the time to think about their solar/battery, which will obviously effect their payback time.

thank you, from across the ditch!

You're right, I did my research and got BYD, ya should have got a BYD.

@@Ineluki_Myonrashi If I were in the market now I would probably have gone for a BYD. They seem to have a good value for money, which is my language. Unfortunately I bought years ago and realistically the only choices I had were the 6 or 10 LG or the Tesla which was very expensive and on back order for six months.

And LG is one of the more reputable manufacturers which should tell you all you need to know..

I like my house and I don't want to burn my children so I will never install one of those garbage products.Far too many of them pose a fire risk and even the manufacturer acknowledges it.

No! It does not worth it at all!

Because people will pay it. Suppliers will milk it for as long as they can.

I agree 100% with Trevor 15+ kWh 48v CE approved batteries for around 4K are available and are compatible with good quality hybrid inverters such as Goodwe/Deye that cost no more than 2k for a 6kw throughput which would easily power a standard home. the Bs with battery approvals is just a money grab! and no extra cost gateway Bs is needed as the inverters have inbuilt backup. I say it’s nearly come time to disconnect from the grid!!

Rest

Different applications, different construction, possibly different Gov subsidies, but most importantly supply and demand.

Perhaps you are talking about the battery pack because CATL LFP batteries are a lot cheaper than $250 per kw. For the individual batteries that go in to a power wall I am pretty sure it's well below $100 AUD now, plus sodium is being scaled up at 30% less than LFP. Everyone talks about the price of EVs coming down to be on parity with ICE but simple storage battery prices could easily come down 50%. When supply exceeds demand and new competition comes in this will happen and when it does the grid operators better watch out. The amount of people going off grid would become out of control. Even with todays prices the need to run expensive poles and wires to rural properties has become completely unnecessary .

No! It does not worth it at all!

Yeah but there is BS so that's a lie.

No! It does not worth it at all!

@@RK.7796 why do you say that?

No! It does not worth it at all!

Glad it was helpful!

No! It does not worth it at all!

Ends on the 8 May 24 unfortunately

@@PyjamasBeforeChristhopefully they will run it again. We got our battery the last time they had a program. Subsidy plus interest free loan on the balance.

Our home solar produces an average of 30Kwh per day over a year. Of that, 5Kwh is used in the house during daylight and 5Kwh goes into our solar battery. That leaves 20Kwh to sell. Instead of selling it, it is implied that we could charge an EV. We could if it sits at home all day. That 20Kwh takes 12 hours to produce. And a Hyundai Kona could drive 109 k! No, so you cannot charge a car from solar. An EV has to be charged overnight - from the mains.

You know most people don’t use the full charge of their ev, so most days you are just topping it up. It’s going to be up and down and vary based on how much you drive. For example a mate of mine is a stay at home software engineer who drives his car locally on the weekends. He absolutely does maintain his vehicle from solar. On the other hand if you commute your vehicle daily then you are going to be hitting the mains.

@@Alan.livingston Yes this is true, just as petrol cars do not need a full tank to drive. In my view an EV should always remain within range of home as that is the only place to charge. A weekend trip from Sydney to Canberra is risky as charging would be an issue.

i have a 5.5kw north facing solar system and 10kwh battery in south australia (lots of sun). my bill is no where near eliminated, but it is reduced a great amount. in summer months i only pay the supply charge (sometimes less than that), and in winter i save about 20% via solar, and another 20% thanks to selective grid charging of my batteries - for peak hours usage.

@@simonr23 Obviously how efficient your house is, is a big factor and how many people live there and how motivated they are to use power efficiently.

@@jedics1 6 star house and modern, efficient electronics throughout. Intelligent power use to work within the constraints of variable tariff pricing each day. A lot of automation.

@@simonr23 Something is using a lot of power or a little power all the time for our experiences to be so different. My whole place is 2.5 by 7 meters though, which is probably less than 1/4 your whole house.

yes sidestepping is important i have probably saved 100,000 dollars.

i have been off grid for 33 yrs, no gas, more panels is always good, i have 180 panels mostly secondhand $30 dollars each, turn fridge and freezer off at night so that we can use aquarium heaters and dehumidifier instead, don't keep meat in fridge, transfer ice in to fridge overnight. i bought 2 pallets of big batteries about 25 yrs ago second hand they are still in reasonable condition because we mostly use whats coming in, the bulk of those panels only bought in last couple of years from a solar panel installer.

If you have three-phase, consider DC coupled systems.

@@nepeansolarsolutions I have a DC coupled system. Thing is neither of the hybrid inverters available here support charging the battery from the grid, only the PV input. You can use a DC coupled system to avoid high grid rates, but you can’t charge from the grid as per the video so if you have 3-phase and no/limited PV time of use rates are of no value. The thing to look for is low daily supply charges so your excess solar has the best chance of negating them.

@@GraemeLeRoux Are you sure about that? Looking at the Sungrow Hybrid 3-Phase inverter manual e.g. "8.10.9 BatteryForcedChargeTime ... The inverter will take charging power from the grid in the case of PV energy shortage."

Incorrect. I have had a single phase battery on my three phase house for 6 years.

The 3 phase meter nets out the dollars across all the phases: support.solarquotes.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/115001596554-How-does-a-single-phase-inverter-on-a-3-phase-supply-affect-my-self-consumption

That would be perfect. If only the electricity suppliers would allow it. It seems there is only one vineyard in SA. which has faught to do this. Everyone should get together and fight for the right to use or ev's for this

Well said. Amazing how these climate change zealots are prepared to spend big and be out of pocket forever, whilst believing they are helping the planet.

Fire brigade standard practice is move away smoother it in a fire blanket to stop it spreading and let it burn out because you can’t stop oxygen getting to batteries once they are on fire. Pretty risky if your no. 1 asset is involved and you’re retired with limited income to replace it. Insurance companies don’t cover much…❤

There are other backup forms of power that cost a lot less.

Get a standby rechargeable torch.

Agreed. It’s a big reason it wins best battery when we survey our 500 installers every year.

We know Redflow well. They stopped supplying grid-connect residential many years ago.

​@@SolarQuotes Are you sure? I got a quote for a residential redflow battery recently (Perth). Redflow have a battery that is specifically designed for residential installation.

YES! I've been saying this for ages!

Their "market price" model means sometimes it is better to just switch off your house. I know some big industries that had these market price arrangements and sometimes they just shut down when the price went high. Good if you can do that but a bit fraught if you are a household.And when you figure in all the "energy saving " tech like batteries etc, is it worth it?

Thanks, Ryan. Love your work!

@@SolarQuotes likewise ! 🥰

Ill jump in and answer this question with over 8 years experience in using and optimising my solar / batteries system. Now, the question is, how many kilowatts do you use on a daily basis??, (usually your energy supplier will have this on your bill), do you have off peak hot water or is it gas?? If you want to have a battery installed, you have to change your inverter to a "hybrid" solar inverter, so the inverter, (the brains of the system), knows when to charge the battery / discharge etc. So, whatever the cost of the battery, you have the added cost of a new hybrid inverter. A good hybrid inverter (with a 10 year warranty) is LGES-5048 SOLAR HYBRID INVERTER. This cost (wholesale price $1,850), retail around $2,500-$3,000, then you need a battery and installation. you could get an LG RESU10 10kWh LV 48V LiFePO4 for around $7k. so a new inverter, battery and installation, your looking at around $10k-$10.5k for a 10 kw battery/inverter/installation. Smaller battery, cheaper price. Also the most important factor is the energy plan your on. If your hws is run on electricity, the you should also have off peak power or dedicated circuit to heat up the hws, BUT, you could also put a switch, near your hws, so your have the option to run it on "continuous" power during a sunny day, so when your battery is full, you flip the hws switch and whalla, your hws is being heated up by your solar system. if there is going to be cloudy days, heat up your hws during the night on dedicated circuit, Also on cloudy day, you could have your batteries charged during the night to have power during the day/evening from your battery and not get charged ridiculous "peak rate", Any questions feel free to ask.

Do you live in a greenhouse or similar glass box?

It is rare that we cannot find a suitable location for a battery system to be installed, but also remember that they should never be installed in the direct sun due to the potential overheating.

@@anaestheticsI’m in a 3 bedroom unit. One full side is the adjoining property. Every other side hasn’t got an area large enough to meet the distance from a window requirement. The ridiculous bollard requirement rules out the garage as it would make the garage unusable, it’s not big to start with.

Safety standards exist for a reason - usually because someone died. My house has plenty of suitable locations. I will place my battery (when I eventually get one) in the same garage that my inverters are placed. Bollards won't be an issue because it's a double garage that is not used to house my car. Your specific situation is not indicative of the rest of ours.

You are very risk averse. Nothing wrong with that. I hope you don’t have one of those flammable gas connections to your house (carbon monoxide kills thousands every year even when it doesn’t explode). Or one of those flammable petrol or diesel cars in your driveway because about 1 in 1000 catch fire.

@@SolarQuotes You can also proactively extinguish a fire from combustible liquids or gas. A lithium battery fire cannot be extinguished until it burns itself out… Last time I looked, all fire departments advise never to leave a device charging unattended yet somehow a massive wall mounted battery pack or EV is exempt from that. Likewise there have been an insane amount of recalls for said batteries and that includes reputable manufacturers.

@@SolarQuotes Such flammable fuels pose less fire risk and are extinguishable, unlike lithium batteries which can spontaneously fail with devastating consequences.

You’ll save 28c (34-6) per kWh of solar used from your battery. That’s about $1600 per year. That assumes you charge and drain the entire battery every night and it does not degrade over time. So you’ll likely save closer to $1200 per year in reality.

@@SolarQuotes Thank you for replaying, do you think i should get Sungrow 10kW 3P Hybrid Inverter, with Sungrow 16kWh Battery, or Fronius SYMO GEN24 plus 10kw Hybrid inverter with BYD Battery Premium HVM 16.6 kwh. I'm very curious about your opinion. Thank you in Advance

No Idea, but I doubt it. You want to keep the battery as cool as possible.

Almost certainly not - I can’t see any way it would meet the installation standards

Hoem is very limited. When cheap V2G inverters appear this will take off.

If there wasn't any extra work involved in the installation (eg major switchboard modifications) then it sounds like the installer ripped them off.

Good point. ACT has phenomenally good grid tariffs compared to the rest of Australia.

With such small usage that is possible. But bear in mind that - without the grid reliability is everything and you need a backup. This starts to get expensive compared to a grid connect system.

you bought in Australia and they send you to their Vegas office?

@@SolarQuotesIndirectly, yes. All rebate queries are directed to only email contact with PowerwallNA at tesla.

Sorry to hear that. Is your installer involved? Ours agreed to pay the rebate themselves if there was a problem with Tesla. Which there was not, rebate in the bank in 3 weeks.

@SolarQuotes My apologies if I am repeating myself - my earlier replies haven’t appeared. The Australian Tesla support phone staff direct all rebate queries to e-mail PowerwallSupportNA at Tesla. This is where everything gets lost. @Waiting-4-Godot While the installer has been supportive and also contacted various Tesla account and management staff, they have not offered to make this payment - nor would I expect them to at this stage. I am certainly never buying any other Tesla product in future. [edit: correction to Tesla e-mail address above: PowerwallSupportNA]

I got my rebate within a week or so

Huawei are good batteries, in Australia they are now branded as 'iStore', and supported by SolarGain - who will look after your Huawei batteries too.

I can only speak for my battery, it's an Alpha ESS 5Kw and I asked the EMP question to the installer who didn't know. Upon completion, whilst charging and discharging there is zero radiation from the battery. Infact, there are more microtesla's coming out of my phone charging cable than the battery. I can't vouch for any other battery than my own. Hope this helps.

@@lukes6868 I think @hydscs is referring to either a nuclear electromagnetic pulse bomb or a Carrington event where a solar flare can induce damaging currents into electrical circuits. My answer is that most, if not all, electronics would be fried depending on the strength of that pulse at that location.

I live in the NSW southern tablelands and after doing an extremely detailed modelling of my own proposed solar plus battery system (much more detailed than the SolarQuotes calculator and using actual hour by hour usage data over a full year), the best average annual return I could get was about 6% after twenty years and all of that came well towards the end. That return could easily be wiped out by increased insurance premiums, a malfunction that required repairs, or even scheduled maintenance and inspections. No combination made a positive return for the first ten years. Even that small return is very optimistic, being dependent on the price of batteries dropping drastically over the period. That is, building up the battery capacity through the period as prices dropped because buying it all up front was a guaranteed loss even over twenty years (replacing batteries and other components as they reached EOL).

Yes - that’s a standard tariff so as the video says the payback is Meh. On a ToU payback is higher because peak is higher and you can charge cheaply at night for the morning peak. So for high energy users in ToU payback can be twice as good.

Can you point us to any commercially available and approved for grid-connection in Australia?

You can charge your car from a home battery - no problem - but most people charge their cars either direct from solar, where possible or overnight on a cheap grid tariff. The problem is the car battery is typically 60-70 kWh and one home battery is 10-13kWh, so easy to drain your home battery leaving it empty for the evening peak.

I mean, that sounds like a no-brainer..

It's easy to be angry at the power companies, but that is likely misplaced. The tariff goes down due to every man and his dog doing the same thing, trying to sell power at the exact same time when it's sunny.

When we all have batteries, they’ll just boost the daily supply charge even more. About half of my current bill is just supply charges.

My yearly electricity cost has halved since installing panels 4 years ago. Simply because I don’t pay for electricity when the sun is up. Definitely worth it in Perth, even if cost is your only consideration.

Correct as we have always said battery payback can be terrible or it can be reasonable depending on your circumstances. Not everyone lives in Melbourne. Hard to fathom for many Melburnians I know. But I promise it’s true.

@@SolarQuotes But my math above is actually for anywhere you get sun all day, generally you only get to discharge your battery once a day. That's why my math is still really best case in most cases. I know in Melbs I get less sun than say QLD, but my PW was still fully charged today by 2pm, its not all rain and clouds down here either. The more the difference between FIT & rates increases, the lower the ROI, term but its all still far beyond smart. Don't forget that $10K (what I paid with rebates) now is more like $12-15K in 10 years time, $15k upfront is crazy expensive and will be like $18-20K in 10 years money so inflation on your purchase price makes ROI even longer. Batteries need to be 3x the capacity and 1/3 the cost. When it gets there it will be a no brainer. 20kw and $7K is still a maybe. The best option for those who's cars are at home is if we can just use our cars battery. That's a 70kwh battery just sitting there. It won't suite everyone, but it would suite a lot of people, especially with so much work from home going on now.

Yes. Battery cell prices are, but takes some time for this to flow through to the packaged home batteries.

That’s deliberate

@@SolarQuotes why is that. Extremely curious to know

Interesting - just checked the SE battery's latest data sheet and it lists the fire extinguisher as 'optional'.

A home battery works harder. It can be fully charged and drained more than once per day. So there’s higher warranty liability. Also the packaging and onboard electronics are expensive. Then there’s the customer support and complex app and API to maintain. As the market gets more mature prices should come down.

Yeah that puzzled me a little. Are they assuming you save on buying the extremely expensive peak rate electricity? Which doesnt make sense, because if you needed power at that time you wouldn't choose a TOU tariff. Or are they assuming you charge the battery on the cheap off peak? But havent you already bought the massive solar array before you bought the battery? So that assumption doesnt make sense either.

Flat tariffs are say 25c all day. Let's say TOU is 17c during the days and 35c from 3pm to 9pm. It's the evening spike when you use most energy and where you have a full battery, ideally charged by solar but if there isn't enough you top up the battery at 17c and then use it during the evening peak.

​@@hags568those were the cheapest rates about 12 to 18 months ago. You can add at least 10c to each of those today.

Good feedback - thank you. We'll explain this better next time. Generally it's not worth choosing to be on a ToU if you are currently on a good standard rate - but many people are being forced onto ToU tariffs, and this is where batteries can start to make sense financially.

more details here: www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/payback/

Not grid connected.

agreed - but they are coming - EcoFlow does a plug and play grid connect battery in the USA, which looks promising for this application - but will require Aussie battery standards to be more forgiving.

The challenge is getting permission to install and also the impact on common property from an insurance perspective. If insurance increases as a result of some owners having batteries then you can imagine owners without them objecting to paying more for insurance. So sadly I think body corporates are going to lag behind on this tech.

LOL someone’s been reading Vac Smil. Vac’s great at history, but can’t comprehend the future ( or the present now that it’s arrived). My house generates firmed kWhs cheaper than the Nuclear Power Station I used to work at. (I’m a big fan of nukes but not for Australia)

@@SolarQuotes Firmed kWh? Lol… so you have your backup generation as well then. You can’t fight physics. Batteries suck and small scale solar and battery systems do not produce cheap kwh. By the time you pre pay for all the installation and equipment there is no way you produced electricity more cheaply than industrial scale thermal generators. Physics. I have never heard of whom you referenced but i do know physics and engineering and batteries and low energy density will never be capable of running an industrial economy or providing cheap electricity to consumers. Why? It’s not a technology problem it’s a physics problem. You can use solar and batteries all you want, it’s a choice, but don’t suggest it’s somehow cheaper per kWh than industrial thermal power generators which is simply not the case. Nuclear is the most efficient and and after coal, is the cheapest per kWh to generate electricity. It’s also more environmentally friendly than the millions of batteries that would be required to store even a fraction of the energy we require. Batteries can be part of the future but it will all be enabled by baseload generators. If it’s not going to be coal then it will be nuclear. Nuclear is the future of energy and it always has been: the technical argument for it are a lay down mesere’ . Solar and batteries are for niche power generation only, in areas where is it not possible to build of get baseload generation. They are too inefficient and too expensive and do not scale well.

@@SolarQuotes Vaclav Smil certainly has some interesting books. Thanks for pointing him out. Again physics don’t lie and you can’t change them. Batteries are not the future of energy. Energy density is the key to efficiency and batteries don’t have any. Plus they all need to be manufactured and that is resource intensive and all made in China…

@@SolarQuotes "I’m a big fan of nukes but not for Australia" Why not? We have an unlimited supply of uranium We don't have Earthquakes or Tsunami's We have massive empty deserts where we could bury the waste Australia seems to be the best place on the planet for nuclear power!

Expect a battery installation to start at $1,500. You are paying for at least 2 trades people including at least one battery-qualified sparky for a day, all the consumables (cables, breakers etc,), insurance, company overheads, and - for good companies - a sum set aside so they can provide ongoing support for the 10 years of warranty.

@@SolarQuotes and in some cases, it’s literally plug and play. Markups on equipment is also an issue.

@@69memnon69 plug and play?? Who told you that?

Nope.

www.solarquotes.com.au/solar-calculator/

www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/payback/

And what is that incidence exactly, Alan?

Perhaps the ACCC public warning re LG home batteries,the Tesla big bank fire in Victoria last year and other fires in Sth Australia and NSW. Come on, be fair dinkum if you’re going to push this stuff.

It's ok as long as the system can island (isolate) itself from the grid :)

I like the ad on tv asking people to check the serial numbers due to fire risk. I have wondered if there is a penalty on the house insurance due to lithium fires. I don't have batteries or solar. My back up is a Honda generator.