Cam Shootout Series | Part 1 (S&S 475G, Wood Knight Prowler 22x, Comp Cams M8 246A, Redshift RS472)

Рет қаралды 218,300

5 жыл бұрын

Harley-Davidson of Cool Springs | Cam Shootout Series Part 1
Call Aaron today about your ride: (615) 274-4170 We'd love to help you out!
Cam's being tested:
S&S Cycle 475G
Wood Knight Prowler 22x
Comp Cams M8 246A
Zippers Redshift RS472
Follow the guys in this video:
Mike VO: @m.v.o_motorfast
/ m.v.o_motorfast
Aaron Staudinger: @staudinger72 / staudinger72
Jamie Lima: @thiscrazyride
/ thiscrazyride
Video shot and edited by
Randy Shaffer @randyalan99
/ randyalan99
DISCLAIMERS:
Testing was performed at Harley-Davidson of Cool Springs on a DynoJet 250I running DWRT WINPEP8. Tuned with PowerVision. Every effort was made to eliminate environmental variances for maximum consistency.
All tests were conducted on a 2019 Harley-Davidson Street Glide Special with the following components:
- 117CI Screamin' Eagle High Compression Cylinders/Pistons
- 4.5'' Stroke 4.075'' Bore Set 11.0:1 Compression
- Factory Throttle Body with SE 5.5 Injectors
- Stock Factory Heads
- Screamin' Eagle Ventilator Air Cleaner
Each Cam was tested on two exhaust systems:
- D&D Exhaust Billet Cat 2-into-1 M8
- Fullsac M8MX Headpipe with Khrome Werks M8 4.5'' Classic Mufflers & Competition Baffles
The Dyno results will be revealed at the end of each run in this video. We will discuss and compare all results at the conclusion of all testing.
If you really want to learn somthing watch till the end...
THANK YOU TO EVERYONE THAT WAS PART OF THIS TEST:
S&S: www.sscycle.com
WOOD: www.woodcarbs.com
COMP: www.compcams.com
ZIPPERS: www.zippersperformance.com
FEULING: www.feulingparts.com
D&D: www.danddexhaust.com
FULLSAC: www.fullsac.com
KHROME WERKS: www.khromewerks.com
HARLEY-DAVIDSON: www.harley-davidson.com
Check out our latest bikes and all the great bikes we have in stock at www.hdcoolsprings.com or give our sales team a CALL TODAY at (615) 450-1642
Follow us on:
Facebook: / harleydavidsoncoolsprings
Twitter: / hdcoolsprings
Instagram: / hdcoolsprings

Пікірлер: 458

@johnnyturbo8460 5 жыл бұрын

Its about time someone finally did a REAL comparison of cams. Not just reading from a catalog etc... well done

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you. And we agree.

@crruzzzer1 4 жыл бұрын

"Well theres 23 1/2 minutes you'll never get back" you guys kill me lmfao!!! One thing for sure is you saved me time, money, and frustration doing my build. I have a reference point and base my decisions on tried and true analysis. Keep the ride going!!

@revan99 5 жыл бұрын

This is so great. No one has done a video like this before with this great of detail and knowledge. You guys are changing the game.

@MoonshineHarley 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much. We love hearing this!

@bobbywilliams9772 4 жыл бұрын

@@MoonshineHarley with a stock 2018 road glide 107 M8, what HP and torque could I expect if I did a full exhaust, stage 1 air cleaner, tuner, S&S 465 cam, S&S cam plate and oil pump and tuned?

@freebehindbars8654 11 ай бұрын

Was a real comparison when a different setup was used on the Zipper’s cam? Just a thought

@tc223 5 жыл бұрын

You guys are kicking total ass on these videos. Great, no bullshit information.. keep up the good work.

@mojomanmurph1925 4 жыл бұрын

Moonshine cherries, Yeeee Hawwww!!!! It's a Tennessee thang. Interesting video. If warranty and money wasn't an issue, I would definitely be in touch. The discussions about the cam plate and especially head pipes was a bonus.

@jimbeam4111 5 жыл бұрын

Great video. Well explained. Clears up a lot of confusion. Can’t wait for more. Maybe a tuner shootout in a later video series.

@bear304inc5 5 жыл бұрын

Gotta appreciate the work that went into this, love it. Fair and unbiased reporting of results. To often we see one product pushed over others simply on bias or what that video maker offers. This was informative and also cool to watch.

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks. There are so many great and unique performance products to choose from out there. We really try to tailor our builds to the owner rather than use "canned" setups for everyone.

@gregfortmayer4535 5 жыл бұрын

WOW guys THanks. Awesome videos. You guys make it all worth the effort.

@mikegroft1569 5 жыл бұрын

Wow a mountain of info,thanks guys. Real comparisons of the products.👍

@wallycleaver1320 5 жыл бұрын

First class video you guys are professional all the way im rooting for Zipper Redshift .

@joesainato8051 5 жыл бұрын

Fantastic video gives me more to think about on what to choose. Thanks

@1550tc 5 жыл бұрын

Guys great job on the video and looking forward to your videos 👍👍👍🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺

@suzuki60008 Жыл бұрын

Super cool data sharing. Thanks a bunch!

@Bill-ck3lo 3 жыл бұрын

Awesome work guys! D&D with Zippers it is! Best review I've seen yet. Very comprehensive and on point! I need to look no further than this video that'll refer back to for comparisons.

@peeonthe3rdrail414 5 жыл бұрын

Awesome video, tons of good info and the discussion after the fact was a nice touch. I look forward to seeing more of the shop series videos.

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you.

@twomontess 5 жыл бұрын

Damm good video guys ! Can’t wait til the next series

@genereynoldsakayoda5815 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks, appreciate your work.

@N6J6R6 4 жыл бұрын

Fantastic... Thank you all for this..

5 жыл бұрын

Great vid.very professional. well done. props to your technician.

@emeraldcitycarpenter 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort to make this video. Well done. Great info 👍🏽

@NoName-vz1ob 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you.

@matthewlidel4324 5 жыл бұрын

Great video thanks for sharing.

@Flashracer1 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the great video. 👍

@duicop25 5 жыл бұрын

I bet I would have to pass by atleast 10 HD dealerships to get to yall and from what I've seen and heard it would be well worth the drive!!! Great videos!!! Look forward to more and will definitely be swinging in the next time I get out yalls way!!!

@chrisadkins9351 5 жыл бұрын

Great work gents.

@mikebush3288 4 жыл бұрын

VERY well done video. Just finishing my ‘19 EGS build and considered each one of these cams....ended up going with the Wood 22X with complete S&S cam chest upgrade (plate, pump, lifters, lifter cuffs, push rods) and S&S MK45 complete exhaust system. Decided to run the PowerVision tuner with a little creativity and couldn’t be more pleased with the outcome.

@MutedBlade Жыл бұрын

Do you have a sound clip after the build? I'm looking to the same build but would like a reference before plopping down the cash

@d.sandell2555 Жыл бұрын

Outstanding video!!! I especially liked the explanation of the fueling oil pump over the stock unit. God damn inspiring. Helps me plan and spend my money wisely.

@eddierodriguez5549 4 жыл бұрын

Just wanted to comment on my recent experience with The crew at Moonshine Harley. This past Tuesday my wife and I picked up our Road Glide bikes from Moonshine where they did the stage II on the 114’s and we could not be happier with the results. Is not only about the performance of the bikes but the way they treated us. We felt at home with everyone at the dealership and we look forward to more visits and perhaps more performance for the RG’s . The worst part of the hole experience was riding through very heavy rain and wind on the way back to Daytona and even that was kind of fun with the new power. Good work Jamie and the crew. 👍

@MoonshineHarley 4 жыл бұрын

Eddie Rodriguez Barbara and you are amazing! Thanks for trusting us with your performance needs.

@bertmancaster8522 3 жыл бұрын

what exhaust did you go with? I'm having issues with torque loss on my stage 2 set up

@eddierodriguez5549 3 жыл бұрын

@@bertmancaster8522 I went with the Rineharts because I installed them at the dealership in Orlando. If I would have gone with what Moonshine H-D wanted it would have been better. But with the combination that they put in the engine I have no complaints, I know I lost 2-3hp between 2,000 & 2,300 rpm but it still pulls beautifully. If I had to do it again I would go with their suggestion. If you can give Moonshine and I’m sure they will help you. Good luck and be safe GBY

@dandarnall6445 5 жыл бұрын

That’s good work and good info nice to see a shop that ain’t afraid to make a motor run like we want them to. Keep it up guys.

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching! It's our passion for sure.

@dandarnall6445 5 жыл бұрын

M.V.O _Motorfast I wish my dealership had the same passion on performance.

@MoonshineHarley 5 жыл бұрын

dan darnall let us know if we can help you out with anything. Glad you love the video!

@jamielima5315 5 жыл бұрын

dan darnall we have options to pickup and deliver so if you or any of your buddy’s need anything we can figure something out. Plus we have options to finance performance builds.

@zookskustomz 3 жыл бұрын

Cheers Moonshine Harley!!! I just got my Fullsac Header pipe and I shipped it to Jet Hot High-Performance Coatings. I went with their traditional polished look. I wanted to say thanks to Mike, Aaron, and the whole team at Moonshine Harley... 2018 Gun Ship Gray CVO 117" with Red Shift 468 Cam, S&S Cam Plate, S&S Oil Pump, S&S Tappet Cuffs, S&S Pushrods, S&S Chain Tensioner, Fueling Race Lifters, Dynojet Power Vision, Dynojet Target Tune, Fuel Moto Dynamic Exhaust Tuning Inserts, Fullsac Headpipe and Rinehart mufflers.

@MoonshineHarley 3 жыл бұрын

Nice. Let us know how you like it.

@Saturdays.Script 5 жыл бұрын

Great video!

@carolinarider5237 4 жыл бұрын

Best video out there. And the best 231/2 minutes of my time. 😎🤘

@RGHD912 2 жыл бұрын

These guys know what they’re talking about! R&D! Thanks

@deanwinchester119 2 жыл бұрын

Dammit man what an awesome vid! That comp cam sounds wicked. Got a sick ass idle with a serious punch in the smiles per gallon

@georges.4585 5 жыл бұрын

Well, I found my new favorite You Tube channel. Good Shit Men! Thanks, George S.

@nealmoyer7216 7 ай бұрын

47 minutes, I watched it twice. Great job guys

@philmertz243 5 жыл бұрын

Awesome channel. Keep up the good work

@CactusJack252 5 жыл бұрын

I cant wait to see more videos

@browndawg5872 5 жыл бұрын

great vid. we the consumers need more of this for a more educated decision

@weldermike7017 3 жыл бұрын

Very helpful thanks so much! Thumbs up!

@utbview 4 жыл бұрын

Love You Guys, Thanx for ALL the Great, Informative, and often Entertaining (hahaha) videos. I have a 2018 Heritage 114. After seeing your Oil pump comparison video I decided to upgrade to the S&S oil pump and cam cover. Then I figured might as well throw a cam in while its opened up..... Origanly considered the SE Torque Cam, but after watching I'm leaning towards the S&S 475 Cam Kit. Ride pretty much only one up, not very aggressive , planning to do more cross country ( long highway)riding. I have Vance and Hines Big Shots and an Arlen Ness Inverted Sucker intake and a Power Vision tuner. And Sound is important, Luv me sum Thump Thump Thumpadi Thump. know what I mean?? Thanx again appreciate any added advice .

@evostefan3040 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for this great Video and Informations! Your the Best!!!

@tawaitai 4 ай бұрын

Dude that COMP-CAM idle and sound is by far the 🏆🏆🏆 NOTED: Comp-Cam on the build list for the FXDR.

@drtub92 5 жыл бұрын

I run the 22X and it is a great TQ cam makes 2-up feel like solo and solo is tire shredding fun

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

Yeah. It is solid for sure. That's why we wanted it in the mix.

@waygone6657 4 жыл бұрын

23 and a half worthwhile minutes :-) well presented and good info, thanks.

@MoonshineHarley 4 жыл бұрын

Way Gone thanks for watching. The Big Bore stock head comparison will hit our channel this week.

@reidponiesc4 3 жыл бұрын

Great video. You guys need to start your own podcasts. 🤘🔥

@ryanlippert1228 3 жыл бұрын

Zippers cams 468 in 2019 street gluide thunder max tuner. Pushrdes rolles. Gained 29 hp 17t. That's bad ass nbs

@hk-47meatnbag92 5 жыл бұрын

Badass guys....just BADASS

@MoonshineHarley 5 жыл бұрын

That's the only way we know haha

@raidderrobb 4 жыл бұрын

Awesome video excellent explanation u guys should have a tv series

@hman1232 4 жыл бұрын

Great video more combos please!

@ricm7006 5 жыл бұрын

Keep up the videos! Damned good one.

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you

@rp75heavy 5 жыл бұрын

Go team... Good work...!!

@markscheidlmeier6523 Жыл бұрын

Fantastic. Next time Mike has 5 minutes? Send him up here...I got some work needin' doin'! LOL!

@nickthinkpainting1978 3 жыл бұрын

Excellent video I admire your need for speed 😁🔥🔥🔥🇺🇸

@2002roadkingclassic 3 жыл бұрын

So you base line a stock 114 Then dyno a 117 kit with cams ??? Do I have that correct. Why not just do a stock 114 stage 2

@ellerskillzis 5 жыл бұрын

That was funny shit... oh, and informative too.

@freedom6919741 4 жыл бұрын

Great video

@brandonkoons2773 Жыл бұрын

This, this is the company I wanna work for and learn from. Well done guys.

@MoonshineHarley Жыл бұрын

Thank You.

@cavscout62 4 жыл бұрын

I’m a long time fan of Fueling and installed the Plate Pump Cam Pushrods & Lifers in my FXDC TC96 and not only did it improve performance but also dropped head temp by 33 degrees here in the fucking Hot as Hell Texas summer weather!😎

@NoName-vz1ob 4 жыл бұрын

Nice. I also like Feuling.

@broncotex8033 5 жыл бұрын

great video

@mikecimorelli5071 2 жыл бұрын

I would LOVE to see a similar video on the 107

@ozarkbagger1380 2 жыл бұрын

Great video! I wish more would do these. So what was the power with just the high compression pistons and such minus these cams?

@swiftcloud1 Жыл бұрын

Nice!

@oneboyscout3653 10 ай бұрын

Thanks s ton. Subbed!

@mickeyroberts77777 5 жыл бұрын

OK, that was just awesome guys. Keep up the Fantastic videos! It doesn't get any better than that, period.

@MoonshineHarley 5 жыл бұрын

mick 77777 appreciate it. Let us know if there is anything you’d like to see.

@HoosierRebel 5 жыл бұрын

I would love to see a cam comparison with some chris rivas rocket cams and maybe some Jim's v twin max cell cams as well.

@hoangharley4940 2 жыл бұрын

Amazing video, thank you guys for the effort. I have just one question what are your thoughts on the combination of S&S 475G and TwoBros Comp S exhaust on the 2020 Low Rider S with the S&S128ci out of the many bikes you’ve built. Thanks guys!

@billrobland4163 Жыл бұрын

That D&D exhaust is a god send

@grimeyhonkyracing3938 3 жыл бұрын

Michael must be related to Clint Eastwood his whiskey glass automatically refills itself, badassery

@albarnes5713 4 жыл бұрын

Have tried several S&S cams. Have settled on the 625 gear drive easy start edition. Roller rockers & S&S Super Stock heads that flow 283CFM A.650" lift. 10.8 c.R. !06 cubic inch Built entire engine with S&S parts. Raced a 10.8 second Sportster. He had to sniff my exhaust. 630lb 2014 FXDL with Baker Grudgebox. 55mm HPI throttle body.

@NoName-vz1ob 4 жыл бұрын

That is a nice setup for a twin cam.

@DragonM109R 5 жыл бұрын

Great job in video.. seemed like a Professionally done episode on a "Speed" channel on cable.. and Aaron.. Not a hair out of place... nicely done.. :)

@ericberry5312 3 жыл бұрын

Hey guys great videos!!! I’ll be rolling through your area the end of June. What’s typical price for the 475 cam install and tune??

@kawancraigstewart 5 жыл бұрын

I love this. A seat of your pants review , not a childish check out my dyno numbers . Your telling us with exhaust setup where the bike is hitting. Your telling us the power band . Big horse power and torque means nothing to me if it is only achieved near redline and the bike is worse than stock rolling up to that point .

@h3llsdemon437 3 жыл бұрын

Id like to see what all these cams do in the m8 107 engines.

@freebehindbars8654 11 ай бұрын

Just lower the graphs readings, bc the paths will be very similar.

@patbramble8958 Жыл бұрын

Oh man, Great job on the info. Deff makes the grey matter work. BUT I do have one question. Looking at the SS475, wanted to know is a 2 -1 or 2-1-2 exhaust best for this cam?.

@ellerskillzis 5 жыл бұрын

Since all bumpsticks produced similar power, I like the rowdy idle of the Comp... just my $.02

@jimmiehoyt729 Жыл бұрын

2022 electra glide standard 475 s&s cam chest v&h duels s&s 4.5 s&s air cleaner. Dynojet power tuner 3 .. waiting on warmer weather to dyno . No numbers yet. Have time to change out header pipes to s&$ s&s slipons..

@acef4389 5 жыл бұрын

I have a 18 fltrxs was considering the 22x now I know thanks great vlog

@MoonshineHarley 5 жыл бұрын

ace f anytime!

@jamielima5315 5 жыл бұрын

ace f what exhaust system are you running or planning on running?

@acef4389 5 жыл бұрын

I'm thinking either fuel moto xxx or fullsac they look the same with x pipe,they both resemble the screaming eagle pipe but of coarse harley won't let you just buy the headpipe without the stupid mufflers with cats soooooo either will work,now slip ons for those are still up in the air

@acef4389 5 жыл бұрын

I'm running a homemade head pipe right now took a stock head pipe and took cat out blocked off left side and through a street cannon on,looks stock and performs ok but no sound so...I'm looking and watching cause at that point it's about sound

@glennconquest9058 3 жыл бұрын

Zippers with twin pipes sounds like a beast

@lowslo9287 5 жыл бұрын

I guess I'm getting comp cams hp and torque are both high best well around 😍

@vibeentertainment7828 5 жыл бұрын

Only the best

@86Raxor 4 жыл бұрын

That's it, I am getting the Wood knight prawler 22x cam! I am guessing it will lower fuel consumption as well with the added efficient parts?

@justdad53 5 жыл бұрын

Nice process presenting the results objectively. I am not a Harley guy so it doesn't help me much. Performance wise seems like a huge increase going from a horsepower to weight ratio of 1:10.1 to around 1:6.6 assuming the wet weight is about 800 pounds and the stock bike made 79 hp and with the new cam it made about 120 hp. Alot of performance from a cam and pipe with a dyno tune. I am a Triumph hotrodder so I get why you would do it but the boys in Las Vegas would say your making your point the hard way.

@Quik22 4 жыл бұрын

Which insert do you have in the khrome werks mufflers? Khrome werks told me they have 3. The ripper which is just a straight pipe. Louvered and the performance insert. I just bought the khrome werks 2-2 system and want to get the best low end when I re dyno my bike.

@MAUSOLEOS 2 жыл бұрын

Hola amigos. es grandioso el trabajo que realizan. tengo una breakout 2020 stage 1. que cam me recomiendan? saludos desde mexico!!

@darrellcoccagna2055 2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate the videos My question was idle. Which would you say had the most rad wild sound ?

@ResetGovernment 5 жыл бұрын

Great video! Best preforming exhausts? Maybe?

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

We do have an exhaust series planned for the future. I'm not sure when we are doing it but it has been thrown around. In the meantime we do have data on several different systems and how well they work on different levels of engine build from our day to day operations and we would be happy to answer questions if you come in or call Aaron. Thank you for the support man.

@mcdmn717 3 жыл бұрын

This was an awesome video. Very intuitive and well done. You guys mentioned you have build numbers on most exhaust setups and chose the ones in the video for a reason. Curious to know what you guys have thought of the full rhinehart setup (headers snd exhaust) and what cam you guys liked the best with that particular setup.

@MoonshineHarley 3 жыл бұрын

Loren McDowell We talk about the exhaust options that has put preformed others. Some just didn’t make the cut. We do have new exhaust options available that hit the market since this video. So If you need more info call the shop and ask for Jamie or Aaron. 615-274-4170 Or go to Moonshine harley.com and click on the Performance Shop tab and select Moonshine Horsepower.

@ericauclaire7045 Жыл бұрын

I have a 2013 road glide with a 103 I have Vansen Hines power dual header CFR slip Ons, big air cleaner and I recently put in Andrews 57H cams and now I got a tune from Fuel Moto now I am trying to figure out where I’m a tuner. I’m getting a lot of spit and sputter every once in a while, and I have a PowerVision dino jet PowerVision.

@rsbharley4766 5 жыл бұрын

Great video with great info. Thanks so much for sharing. Cheers

@mdpage76 5 жыл бұрын

I like that low tone of the fullsac in the video. It's always hard to trust video sounds, but in the video it sounds better than D&D to me.

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

It does sound really good. It has a deeper tone and isn't so loud when idling and cruising that it drowns out the radio. When you twist it though it has a great bark!

@gpcbr1000 2 жыл бұрын

How do you guys feel about the Woods 22XE cam? I’ve heard it’s the biggest you can put in a 114 without modifying the heads. And do you think this cam would pair well with say a 122-131 big bore kit? Or would it not be enough?

@jamessmoth8683 7 ай бұрын

I like the sound of the fullsac sound bites. A lower deeper tone

@cthompson594 3 жыл бұрын

Hey guys what about that comp cams with a big bear performance 2n1 pipe for the m8? Bad ass video 👍🏼

@flashracer2467 5 жыл бұрын

First dealership or anyone to do a cam shootout video. Innovative. Awesome job. Can you do a cam shootout with just a stage 2 setup and no high compression pistons? It would be a more popular choice.

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

We are doing that as part of this series. We are doing a .465 lift. We are running the Screamin'Eagle 462, the S&S465, the Feuling 465, and the Andrews 464 as of right now.

@flashracer2467 5 жыл бұрын

I can post links to your videos on some Harley forums or maybe you want it low key. Look forward to drinking beer, eating a burger and listening to some music with you all this summer. Your dealership rocks.

@rickyharvey7614 5 жыл бұрын

Thats what im looking for i have a 2015 roadglide wanting a stage 2 but dont know what cams to use

@NoName-vz1ob 5 жыл бұрын

@@rickyharvey7614 we can set you up. Call Aaron at the shop.

@bullast2046 2 жыл бұрын

Late to this party.. did y’all do a vid like this on the twin cam 103?.. Also, do y’all prefer the feuling plate over S&S? I ask because of pinion runout.. HD allows what? Up to .012”? It looks like the S&S has a bushing and the feuling doesn’t.. that’s why I ask

@mikewheldon9470 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome Video guys, who was the rocking out the tunes in the 1st 3-4mins?

@Stockish_Daza 3 жыл бұрын

So what cam would be recommended for my 17 sgs? I ride 2 up frequently but also a lot of solo hot rodding back roads, city, highway, stop light to stop light... I tend to wind the motor out a bit. Currently have a hd se intake, and svt boneshakers and looking at either a vh power header, rcx tormentor, or fullsac head pipe.

@mcollinstube 4 жыл бұрын

I have only seen the quiet baffle and the HP baffle for khrome weeks where do you get the comp. Baffle?

@TheRicokilla 3 жыл бұрын

The SS475 cams sounds aggressive because it makes the front cylinders valves opens more than the rear. Which eventually leads to a hotter front cylinder. Another words, the cylinders becomes imbalance thus the loppy sound. But is this advisable for the long run? Most cams out there doesn’t do this. Pls do advise . Tq

@Marinerk09 4 жыл бұрын

Im on an 18 FXFBS, with SE tuner and Auto Tuner with a TBR 2-1 in NYC. Do a lot of riding in heavy traffic before cracking her wide open on the thruway. I think I’m looking for a good torque cam but, I don’t really know what I need. What can you recommend? I’m also a bigger guy (6’3 285) if that helps. I’m also looking at the full S&S cam-chest. Noise is a plus for me all around too. Was thinking gear-drive too