Can a Catholic be a socialist? | Trent Horn @TheCounselofTrent

Can a Catholic be a socialist? | Trent Horn @TheCounselofTrent | Just Asking Questions, Ep. 29

Рет қаралды 5,435

5 күн бұрын

Catholic Answers apologist Trent Horn explores the nexus of Catholic social teaching and libertarianism.
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Text and links to sources available here: reason.com/podcast/2024/06/27/trent-horn-can-a-catholic-be-a-socialist/
Can a Catholic be a socialist? Can a libertarian be a Catholic? Just asking questions.
Today's guest, Trent Horn, is an apologist and speaker for Catholic Answers and a defender of capitalism. He hosts The Counsel of Trent podcast and has authored several books on Catholicism, including Can a Catholic Be a Socialist? In this episode, we discuss the themes of that book, respond to some of the anti-capitalist rhetoric that has come from the Vatican over the past decade, analyze the rise of "post-liberal" Catholics on the right, and question whether religion is becoming more palatable to the modern person.
Sources referenced in the conversation:
Can A Catholic Be a Socialist? The Answer is No-Here's Why shop.catholic.com/can-a-catholic-be-a-socialist/
Evangelii Gaudium: Apostolic Exhortation on the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today's World (24 November 2013) by Pope Francis www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html
Pope Francis' 2017 TED Talk: "Why the Only Future Worth Building Includes Everyone" kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aZyqpa2XpqzHpZc.html
Against David French-ism by Sohrab Ahmari www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2019/05/against-david-french-ism
Motte-and-bailey fallacy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
Zach and Liz's Interview with Johan Norberg kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ralldKpor6q5lo0.html
Jordan Peterson on the Power of the Easter Message kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hctdgqSSmdDVn58.html
Timestamps
00:00 Opening Monologue
01:25 Can a Catholic Defend Capitalism?
03:30 Pope Francis and Capitalism
05:21 Historical Criticisms of Socialism
07:06 The Tension Between Employers and Workers
09:38 Catholic Teachings on Economics
29:35 Libertarianism and Catholicism: A Natural Overlap?
41:50 The Role of Natural Law in Catholic Thought
43:49 Understanding Catholic Definitions of Law
44:06 Natural Law and Moral Commands
45:42 Human Laws and Justice
48:28 Catholicism and Science
50:35 Liberty and the Good Life
52:46 Debating Legalization of Prostitution
54:49 Libertarianism and Consumerism
01:01:39 Catholic Politics and State Intervention
01:13:21 Jordan Peterson on Catholicism
01:19:31 Final Thoughts: Who are you supposed to be?

Пікірлер: 172

@microsoftpain 5 күн бұрын

I would have never expected Trent Horn to appear on the political side of youtube. I'd really like to see Trent Horn and Tom Woods talk together.

@zuffin1864 4 күн бұрын

ReasonTV is political, but is super open for discussion. I think Trent will go anywhere that will speak with him, reasonably or sometimes unreasonably lol

@microsoftpain 4 күн бұрын

@@zuffin1864 yeah. i do appreciate that about them.

@SirBlackReeds Күн бұрын

Wait, weren't there grooming allegations or something pertaining to Tom Woods? That doesn't give you cause for concern?

@thedigitalsymphony3585 4 күн бұрын

Totally wasn't expecting this crossover, but it's a welcome one nonetheless!

@joeydell 5 күн бұрын

This was actually a great episode! Thanks! PLS do more about Catholics and libertarianism!

@SirBlackReeds Күн бұрын

Yeah, it's weird that they went out of their way to bring on Trent Horn instead of an Acton Institute guy. Then again, prioritizing content creators is par the course.

@charlisdad4460 5 күн бұрын

Yoooo, are you kidding? My boy Trent and Reason? Made my day

@bmgmusa07 5 күн бұрын

Great discussion. As a evangelical, Trent is a very respectable Catholic apologist. He does make you think 🤔 and question your priors.

@SirBlackReeds Күн бұрын

Or is he? 🤔

@pwhqngl0evzeg7z37 4 күн бұрын

"Shut in video game libertarian" How apt to hear while playing Metal Gear 😅

@justintrefney1083 Күн бұрын

Libertarianism brought me to the Catholic Church. Specifically Traditional Catholicism. I noticed how may people I listened to were Traditional Catholics and started to read St Thomas Aquinas.

@sil3ntwint3r 5 күн бұрын

I enjoyed this conversation so much. More and more, I adore liz and her input. I would have liked to hear the Catholic perspective on personal autonomy. When is another person allowed to impose on another persons autonomy? "I exist on the borders of things" I have some criticisms of Jordan Peterson, but that speaks to me deeply

@AjaxNixon 4 күн бұрын

I can't give you an answer, part of the problem would be that Catholicism operates under a different framework. I recommend looking into Bp Barron on youtube (he has talked about this and related subjects frequently over the years) or simply read the Catechism which goes into this and similar questions. The issue is I can't respond in a way which doesn't open a can of worms. Trying to answer your question is more suited for a book than a comment

@rikimez127 5 күн бұрын

Ay Trent Horn! Great guest good job and great thinking about does the Catholic faith favor an economic system

@5silverpesos 4 күн бұрын

¡Gracias! Great interview with Tent Horn.

@tinyleopard6741 2 күн бұрын

Thanks, never expected such an episode. I'm glad Mr. Trent Horn and Reason did this.

@joedunnuck4813 5 күн бұрын

I get the best of both worlds in this interview!

@jm30603 5 күн бұрын

Great discussion, I'm a libertarian catholic and I learned a lot here!

@Kaede-Sasaki 5 күн бұрын

@jm30603 New video: "Can a catholic also be a libertarian?" About as sus as being a marxist 😋

@jaggedplanet 4 күн бұрын

I’m curious, how can one be a Catholic and a libertarian?

@sanjivjhangiani3243 4 күн бұрын

@jaggedplanet One can hold certain standards in the political realm while having somewhat different perspectives in the moral sphere. For example, let's say you want to eat fast food every day. A libertarian would say that it is your business, not the government's. But a priest could still tell you that you're committing the sin of gluttony in his sermon on Sunday. Of course, your membership in the Church is voluntary, but if you attend, you can't say that the priest is interfering with your freedom. You are exercising your freedom by looking to the Church for guidance.

@microsoftpain 4 күн бұрын

The people who ask "How can a libertarian be a Catholic?" or "How can a Catholic be a libertarian?" wouldn't even be asking this question if they actually tried to understand how broad "libertarianism" is in itself. People try to put it inside that same box with Republicans and Democrats, but libertarianism isn't really a "moral" framework because it doesn't have a particular stance at the baseline. It's more of an economic and legalistic framework than anything. This is why you'll often two opposing libertarians, such as Chase Oliver and Tom Woods agree on the core tenets of liberty, but both have completely different moral arguments. It just so happens that libertarianism and Catholicism can mesh pretty well when it comes to concepts like natural law, because both view it as being very important.

@jaggedplanet 4 күн бұрын

@@sanjivjhangiani3243 this seems to assume moral relativism though

@juancuelloespinosa 2 күн бұрын

this is why I prefer science to politics or religion. it's built into it that testing of ideas, and accepting the results, is how we move forward as such, we no longer need to retread the conversation of, let's say, whether bacteria exist but every generation we need to argue the merits of socialism or whatever. it's infuriating

@Kaede-Sasaki 5 күн бұрын

Yes, just not a Marxist. Just as libertarians are not the same as conservatives, not all socialists are marxists. Can a catholic be a libertarian is a bit difficult. Depends on how libertarian.

@brycewilson1741 5 күн бұрын

Please elaborate on what the difference between a socialist and a Marxist. From what I understand, they are one and the same.

@jonaszswietomierz8017 5 күн бұрын

Paleolibertarian is perfectly factible. Just because you're getting rid of big government doesn't mean you have to get rid of morality and social values. Strictly speaking, the official ideology of the Roman Catholic Church is the Social Doctrine of the CC. Any ideology that promotes or develops access to human freedom, private property and social justice is in accord with Church teaching.

@NickFromDetroit 5 күн бұрын

No, one cannot be a Catholic and a true socialist. This was famously said by Pope Pius XI.

@hismajesty6272 5 күн бұрын

@brycewilson1741 Marxism is an inherently atheistic ideology. Socialism is just a way to govern.

@Kaede-Sasaki 5 күн бұрын

@brycewilson1741 Marxism is a subset of socialist and is atheist. There is Christian socialism and other types of socialism as well.

@partydean17 5 күн бұрын

Wow this is VERY unexpected. But welcomed. I've been struggling with the catholic teachings on these things because it seems to very much favor socialists

@partydean17 4 күн бұрын

I was not let down. Very cool talk

@Ripplenator 4 күн бұрын

What often passes as "Catholic teaching" these days is not at all that. Much of the hierarchy (bishops) are very liberal, and their words can be ignored, as they do not reflect authentic Catholic teachings.

@microsoftpain 4 күн бұрын

It doesn't really have to. As Trent said in the later parts of the video, the Church is pretty diverse and has people of many political backgrounds. As long as you understand and accept the core teachings of Catholicism, you're fine. For example, the Church doesn't have an official stance on whether one should accept Creationism or Evolution. We are free to believe either one, as long as you recognize that it's all coming from God anyway. I myself don't have a problem with "social safety nets" and such, but I obviously don't want to have someone exploit me to pay for it. the Church's Catechism states in paragraph #2420: The Church makes a moral judgment about economic and social matters, "when the fundamental rights of the person or the salvation of souls requires it." In the moral order she bears a mission distinct from that of political authorities: the Church is concerned with the temporal aspects of the common good because they are ordered to the sovereign Good, our ultimate end. She strives to inspire right attitudes with respect to earthly goods and in socio-economic relationships. I'm sure you know that libertarianism itself is quite broad, for example, as both Chase Oliver and Hans Hermann Hoppe are libertarians, but are essentially in complete opposite fashion. They both probably have different moral frameworks. Regarding Catholicism, it just so happens that there is a mutual overlap between libertarianism and Catholicism when it comes to things like natural law. I think the Paleolibertarian approach is pretty good at this. I hope this helps!

@tonyl3762 6 күн бұрын

Can't get any better than Catholic + capitalist. Love Trent Horn, Tom Woods, Fr Sirico et al at Acton Institute

@darrellprice7014 3 күн бұрын

What was liberation theology all about then? I don't think it defended capitalism, So what do you say?

@cristiana5305 5 күн бұрын

Yes, lots of people have contradicting beliefs.

@TheKyPerson 4 күн бұрын

I'm a Benedictine Oblate and reading the Rule of St. Benedict, you can't help but come to the conclusion that Benedict was a socialist (small s). He did not like private property and all the stuff the monks use are owned in common. The Benedictine order is over 1,500 years old and its Rule is still used. Socialism (small s) can work but only in small communities. Trying to implement it in a city, town or country has never worked.

@Ripplenator 4 күн бұрын

I would define the monks or nuns living under the Rule of St. Benedict as living in a cooperative, not socialist community. The voluntarily join their communities, they understand what is expected of them, and they are free to "opt-out" (leave). They are not forced members of the community (society), unlike those living under socialism.

@AjaxNixon 4 күн бұрын

Exactly, this is a subtle but huge difference. Also, on a practical level they have several unique characteristics, such as; being a group of celibate adults of the same sex, a strong and shared identity and culture, and a clear understanding that this system does not produce economic prosperity and requires austerity.

@hamie7624 2 күн бұрын

The monasteries were actually one of the first examples of private ownership of productive property. I'm an Oblate with St Vincent's Archabbey, who are you with? 😊

@NickFromDetroit 5 күн бұрын

@Sebastian Servis, You will not accept the scientific fact that human life begins at conception. Something taught in all embryology textbooks today.

@acem82 5 күн бұрын

I mean, my argument against being any kind of Christian and a socialist is that socialism violates "Don't covet", then "Don't steal", then "Don't murder". Then again, I'm just a lowly Protestant, so what do I know? :)

@AjaxNixon 4 күн бұрын

Im a recent Catholic convert, but I appreciate that it's the Protestants in America keeping the ship afloat (just look at voting patterns). But interestingly, for hundreds of years protestantism was heavily tied to socialist politics. Even the early settlers to America were very utopian and socialist. Even the Utah Mormons started as a heavily socialist community, but now Utah Mormons are a solid Republican voting block (though their economics still to this day have a socialist streak, as my W2 can attest to). Its something to look into for some interesting history of protestantism and even early American history. In some sense America had communism antibodies, because it was tried early on and failed

@acem82 4 күн бұрын

@@AjaxNixon Yeah, some Protestants were tied to socialist policies (though, obviously, not most or voting would have gone a lot differently than it did). That being said, Mormons aren't Christians, and therefore can't be Protestants.

@tomcraver9659 4 күн бұрын

Wish they'd brought up the idea that AI will eliminate most jobs, and what might be alternatives to socialism in that scenario.

@MyManinHavanna 3 күн бұрын

Socialism is about bad psychology. That bad psychology can also be employed by Conservatives. In both cases, this is unethical. Epistemology and education are ethical.

@quantumcomputist8572 5 күн бұрын

LOL. Ms. Wolfe said "Hi Zach" in such an emotionless tone.

@stewarttomkinson3356 6 күн бұрын

They are

@SolaCliptura 6 күн бұрын

socialism is explicitly condemned by the Church

@TheRealBrook1968 6 күн бұрын

Not unless they are ignorant or sinister.

@TheOwenMajor 6 күн бұрын

I mean worshipping men in funny hats is a core function of their religion.

@FifthConcerto 5 күн бұрын

The secular reasoning that happened in this was interesting. Whenever the discussion actually went into faith, my eyes kind of glazed over, and everything sounded pretty meaningless to me. But, I guess if I think about this enough, maybe I can persuade my Catholic family members that Joe Biden and Donald Trump are actually both horrible for the country and neither should do anything beyond sit and rot for his remaining years.

@Siddhartha02 5 күн бұрын

No.

@aaronfunderburk8541 2 күн бұрын

I think when people are given the “freedom to do whatever they want” and when people prioritize there autonomy as an “individual” that will always snowball into mass degeneracy and societal degradation because we have a natural inclination to sin. I am not advocating for socialism by any means but I think we can find a combination of the state preserving specific social values while having a market economy that allows for growth and innovation.

@Jinkaza1882 6 күн бұрын

If you count Jesuits as Catholics, then yes it is possible....the word of focus there is "IF"

@ludwigvonsowell5347 5 күн бұрын

Based

@NickFromDetroit 5 күн бұрын

There are many fine Jesuits today. You haven’t looked very hard, that’s all.

@Jinkaza1882 5 күн бұрын

@@NickFromDetroit Communist priest preaching Liberation Theology.

@NickFromDetroit 5 күн бұрын

@@Jinkaza1882 , Wrong, on all counts. Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J., not a communist. Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J., not a communist. The late Fr. Hardon, S.J., not a communist. Papa Francesco, S.J., not a communist.

@Jinkaza1882 5 күн бұрын

@@NickFromDetroit Right on all accounts. Jesuits= communist.

@DanielBarber-bd2cp 5 күн бұрын

Better Catholic: Dorothy Day or Francisco Franco?

@NickFromDetroit 5 күн бұрын

Neither.

@Ruudes1483 17 сағат бұрын

Both/and. Franco on a national scale, Day on a local scale.

@ThatGuy-sc5rx 5 күн бұрын

Of course they can. Thats what the Jesuit order is.

@Sulla5279 5 күн бұрын

The capitalist’s Motte-and-Bailey: They claim Scandinavian nations are capitalist, but when you say let’s enact the same policies…suddenly Scandinavia becomes a socialist dystopia.

@ludwigvonsowell5347 5 күн бұрын

They are a welfare state economy that pays for their social programs with foaming at the mouth pro business policies and insanely high tax rates at 60% if you make 60k per year. They also have very small and ethnically homogenous populations. It’s not a simple “they’re also socialist” you have to tell the whole story of how they’re able to afford such programs.

@NickFromDetroit 5 күн бұрын

Sweden dumped it’s socialist policies in the ‘90s, in favor of free markets.

@pdxnikki1 5 күн бұрын

@@ludwigvonsowell5347 they are NOT socialists.

@ludwigvonsowell5347 5 күн бұрын

@@pdxnikki1 it’s an offshoot, they’re a capitalist economy with a massive welfare state. 60% tax rates with low regulation of industry.

@Catmonks7 3 күн бұрын

Great job Trent defending the Catholic perspective and faith 🙏✝️🇻🇦😇

@HunnysPlaylists Күн бұрын

No, not only incompatible but explicitly grounds for Excommunication even if you try.

@bman5257 Күн бұрын

One would not be excommunicated for being a socialist. If you disagree cite canon law.

@MidnightCoup 4 күн бұрын

if you can ignore the exploitation of value and labor, if you can close your eyes to the leverage used to keep most people wage slaves in order to live "freely" and only look at the benefits of it, and corporate capitalism being the driving force of ethics, than I guess you're making the pill easier the swallow 😂 On the other hand, if you conflate authoritarian communism with community driven, bottom-up economy of Socialism you can twist it into something evil. This channel hides behind big words to explain simple ideas. Capitalism has destroyed the world that God gave us, and drives inequality and greed. It's that simple. Kindly explain your quote "the problem with capitalism is capitalists" and tell me exactly what capitalism is WITHOUT capitalists 😊 Here's the truth: Socialism may not be the answer, but whatever the hell this is isn't either. These rich dirtbags that own the world and have been lying for a century to get you to believe them are losing the facade. They're scared the guillotine is coming back, and scared we figured out what they have done to the world So they start a new moral panic and blame an economic model that has never been allowed to flourish, instead of looking in the mirror.

@AjaxNixon 4 күн бұрын

The ironic part about your reasoning here is the same kind of reasoning could be used to show the exact opposite. For instance the majority of big corporations and billionaires support the democrat party, mass immigration, black lives matter, lgbtq, transgender, etc. don't believe me? Just look at campaign financing, look at any streaming service, look at the social media feed of the major corporations. So all these same big bad guys you are talking about are the ones pushing progressivism. This shows pretty clearly that the big bad corporation capitalists aren't libertarian or even Republican but progressive Democrats.

@SirBlackReeds Күн бұрын

Wouldn't Seamus Coughlin have been a better guest since he's an actual ex-Libertarian? Plus, Trent Horn places content creation above all else. That's why he keeps shaking his fist at Father James Martin, barely utters a peep about Father Altman, and stays silent on Bishop Joseph Strickland and Steve Bannon.

@Scynthescizor 3 күн бұрын

I have to disagree, libertarians do Not have a better grasp of humans than socialists. Both are equally wrongheaded. Libertarians think men are islands of rational industry. Socialists think men with the right material conditions form communities of good will. I would no sooner side with one than the other.

@Scynthescizor 3 күн бұрын

And libertarianism is as internally consistent in its pure form as communism. Both rely on wildly inaccurate pictures of the human person and his relationship with others. Libertarianism is as humble as "my will be done."

@CenturianCornelious 5 күн бұрын

Can a Catholic be a Socialist? Might as well.

@sanjivjhangiani3243 4 күн бұрын

Did you even watch the program?

@CenturianCornelious 4 күн бұрын

@@sanjivjhangiani3243 No

@jakelm4256 5 күн бұрын

3:00 what overarching state is enforcing contracts between nations? This guy is taking Ls right out the gate

@sil3ntwint3r 5 күн бұрын

Lmao, unless you're arguing that authority doesn't exist, everybody is accountable to somebody

@jakelm4256 5 күн бұрын

@@sil3ntwint3r it appears you’re not understanding what he said

@sil3ntwint3r 5 күн бұрын

@@jakelm4256 contracts are generally incentivised legally (arbitration, courts) or by force. A religious individual believes that there is a higher power that will ultimately hold people accountable for their actions. I think if you understood better what he was saying, you might not agree with him, but it's not "taking an L"

@epi_sto_letes 5 күн бұрын

Laisser-faire.

@dpyxl 5 күн бұрын

The anti-Christ doesn't need to reveal himself.

@MasterKeyMagic 3 күн бұрын

let's see how fast Trent misrepresents and strawmans the left. almost immediately wow

@TheWhitehiker 5 күн бұрын

I'm not Roman Catholic, so this is one step removed for me; not of interest.

@youngKOkid1 4 күн бұрын

Convert.

@TheWhitehiker 4 күн бұрын

@@youngKOkid1 Oh, dear!

@youngKOkid1 4 күн бұрын

@@TheWhitehiker you don’t have to be a Roman Catholic. You can be a Byzantine Catholic or one of the other non-Latin rites 🕊️

@TheWhitehiker 4 күн бұрын

@@youngKOkid1 A good Lutheran, thanks much--our architecture is better, and the liturgy is entirely sung.

@youngKOkid1 4 күн бұрын

@@TheWhitehiker don’t you think those are bad reasons to be a Lutheran, considering they have nothing to do with why Luther revolted against the Catholic Church?

@Dan16673 5 күн бұрын

Let's not mix gibberish (religion) with the real world

@NickFromDetroit 5 күн бұрын

It is socialism, liberalism, and the whole so-called “enlightenment” that is gibberish.

@sil3ntwint3r 5 күн бұрын

Religion derives from logic and understanding of the natural world. That which we do not understand is where we have faith. Calling that gibberish is remarkably unintelligent

@AjaxNixon 4 күн бұрын

The question isn't if someone worships, but what they worship. Humans are religious animals. It's proven by looking at how humans and societies act now and in all times. So really it's a matter of finding the best mode of worship, there is no vacuum.

@Dan16673 4 күн бұрын

@sil3ntwint3r at least you admit the of the gaps. I find I don't know more satisfying

@Dan16673 4 күн бұрын

@AjaxNixon meh. If anyone has any serious worship, nevermind what it is, I am rightfully concerned