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Great video. Appreciate the shoutout Pete! Thank you for being the advocate we all need and thank you Tom for getting this out for all to see! ❤

ATTN: GRAND DESIGN RV This message is directly to Grand Design, because I know you are watching this. When is Don Clark (CEO/President) going to publicly address his Grand Design customers regarding this frame failure fiasco. We are tired of your silence and we feel that we deserve some honest and transparent conversation for once. You sold us on being part of the Grand Design family and your exceptional customer service. Now is the time to face the music!

Great video. Pete has been a great voice and help for many of us. A big thank you to him.

Unfortunately Grand Designs response or lack there of is not new to them. Everything going on with this issue is and has been going on with the roof issue too. Same blaming the customer, saying bubbles and ripples are normal, blaming the glue, deleting people’s posts on social media that talk about it, being rude to the customer when talking to customer service. At a certain point it’s no longer a one off, it’s a business practice to deflect any responsibility.

I replaced all the cheap screws that hold the plastic fender around the wheels, used Stainless bolts with nuts on the back instead of the cheap screws they attached with. same with screws falling out molding falling off. I have 2016 Montana High Country. and I see questionable welds on the frame. I don't carry a lot of weight. so may not get the issue LOL fingers crossed. they also need to use better roofing material.

We have a 2022 Momentum and had an almost catastrophic failure with pin box that came on it from the factory. I was feeling what I thought was chuking (not sure if that’s how you spell that), but when I got home and unhooked from the truck, I found all of the bolts holding the pin box were loose! Some were about to fall out, I could take all of the nuts off of the bolts by hand! Obviously the bolts were not torqued at the factory, I called Lippert and Grand Design, they pointed the finger at each other of course.

Thank you guys so much, if the there is anything you need please let me know. I’m sorry you’re all going through this, hopefully this helps saves someone’s life. I have another unit that was inspected last year that had frame flex on a Keystone Montana 2022 that was sold in 2021 and had been setting a a dealership in TX. The attorney that hired me had me flew out to inspect for same issues. This was prior to this coming out, so it’s not just a Grand Design issue. I strongly believe that this is more wide spread issue. I’m sure we will start seeing more come out soon. Again anything I can do, please let me know.

Here's a question I'd love to see answered somewhere. What is the RV manufacturer's expected design life/usage for an RV? And in what road conditions? 50,000 miles? 5,000 miles? Two weeks a year at 500 miles on paved roads? There is a huge disconnect between what they market and what they build and support.

The overweight issue comes from these RV's are designed to a floor plan not the amount of weight on top of the frame. So, for example, a Jayco Eagle 5th wheel at 36 feet +/- will have the same frame as the Jayco Pinacol 5th wheel at 36 feet +/-. Yet the higher end Pinacol will weigh up to 16,000 LBS while the Eagle 5th wheel is about 10K. I am sure Grand Designs and others are doing the same thing. PS. I have not heard of any issues with Jayco. That was just an example. Although, I have seen a lot of sawdust in the cabinetries in the upper deck area at RV shows on new units. That told me they were getting a good amount of movement in the frame in that area. So regardless of the fine appointments on that I walked away.

What if someone or a group of people (with an attorney) gathered enough data on RV factory issues, then contacted the congressional representative who serves the district where Grand Design is located (and representatives for other RV manufacturers with structural issues); and also contact the NTSB Complaints (or appropriate department), and contact the Secretary of Transportation - all at the same time with knowledge that each one is in the loop; and ask for a congressional investigation into the safety issues that may effect anyone exposed to to RVs on the roadways. Also ask for a recall on makes/models/years that have these defects, just like automobiles have recalls. Surely someone who gets wind would take interest and further the cause. Or has this been done already?

We love the grand design layouts, but we bought a Alliance Valor because of the frame they spec

For a second I thought he got off the phone with “Brad Pitt” not “Brad smith” 😂

After seeing the Carson video I started inspecting our GD Solitude 380fl. We are a front living so I pulled the two couches and removed the trim. I found that out of the six holes through the frame only 4 had lag bolts and those were coming loose. It blows my mind that they didn’t use any lock washers or go a step further and weld these bolt heads in place. Everyone keeps talking about being over weight and that is a safety concern, however the rig wasn’t even put together correctly. Lippert can blame GD and owners all they want but the fact is the welds on the frames are substandard border line horrible. I found out about the roof failures right after we purchased ours so I spent 6700 bucks and had an RV armor roof i stalled to prevent that from happening while we are on the road full time. So now here I am looking at thousands of more dollars because I wont jump through hoops to get the manufacturer to fix it. We have about 10,000 miles towed on our 2022 which was built July of 2021. We have been full time on the road for a little over a year and a half now. We move our rig every three months. So I think we caught the issue early enough that we can save it.

Maybe it’s time for all GD owners experiencing this issue to organize a group arrival on GD property like what the truckers did in NY City.

Great video guys with some gooood solid 411!!!Thanx 4 doing this and sharing what you guys have learned!!! We have a triple axle toy hauler and we boondock a lot and I have to respectfully disagree about going off road. Most of us boondockers are very vigilant on conducting our recon prior to going in on a location. We have bailed out of a few locations after stopping and getting on the e-bike to assess the area and went to another suitable/safer spot due to road conditions. Again, most of us boondockers are acutely aware of the risks and avoid a situation that could cause damage. These $&#%€¥$ interstates and highways through this country are in absolutely horrible shape!!! Our max speed on the interstate is 65 and sometimes less based on the condition of the road. But, the worst experiences EVER encountered in our RV were not going down a washboard dirt road with ruts at 5-10 mph, but going down I-10 thru east Texas and Louisiana…this literally scared the 💩 out of us and our 2 cats that travel with us!!! Theres been some other roads similar as well. The bottom line is our highways need to be maintained to a much higher standard. Also, we have some friends that do nothing but boondock and they did a trip to Alaska. They said the roads are so bad they broke 2 leaf springs and had 3 flat tires in a 4 month trip.

Pete and Tom Great conversation. Definitely needs to be some type of regulation on this industry. They are built by humans and needs some checks and balances for sure. Thanks for the video.

Great video you two. I agree with the fact the rv industry needs to be regulated. Also welders putting these frame’s together need to be certified welders. My wife and I own a 22 44:05 Grand Design Imagine 2600RB bumper pull and I keep checking my tough to make sure it doesn’t start to sag. I’ve looked and the welds are very poor welds. I’d like to offer assistance with any help I could be with advocating getting the rv industry regulated. I know it will most likely be an uphill battle. Thanks to you Tom and Pete for your interest in this process.

I’ll say this over 30 plus years of rving. We are on our 3rd Winnebago class a . Upgraded roughly every 10 years . Truthfully after almost 200k miles between the 3 rv s . Not a single break down to shut down a trip .. about to upgrade to a grand tour 45rl . For our final rig .

When I was at Hershey 2 years in a row grand design advertisements are that their campers are full time ready . To me that says 25k miles a year would be normal.

I just met a couple whose GD Imagine TT is buckling at the tongue weld! They could be going down the road and the trailer box detach from the tongue and roll down the road! This is an older couple that is living full time traveling the country in their unit. Lippert and GD are pointing the finger at each other.

those Lagscrews into wood is a pathetic way to attach how about inserting an Aluminum bar inside with threads and bolts into that. not that much more weight and much stronger than pine wood

Thanks for this video, How about RiverStone? Is there a site telling who other than GD is having this problem??

This is what happens when a complete industry is governed by the CEOs of the companies that build the industry, this is why that RVIA sticker on the side of all your trailers doesn’t mean shit!

Good for you

I have a call into a dealer waiting for a call back to see if they will do anything about the pin box/ frame. Mine is broken and can’t move until it’s fixed. I have a 2020 Momentum 381. Hoping I can get some kind of help with this issue. If not our travel plans will be over with.

Has Grand Design and others not learned anything from Boeing? It’s as simple as issuing a recall. Sure, there are probably thousands perhaps on our roads right now. The potential for human tragedy, the rug not withstanding, is too hard to express in writing. So Grand Design and other manufacturers out there, cease playing your blame games while lives and livelihoods are at risk and frankly, grow a pair, own up to some level of acceptance and provide a resolution that works for all parties.

Frame flexing is normal to a point they need to stop using that term when it moves that much it has failed, bad steel and design and the welds are all suspect. all the welders in the factories need to be trained and certified by third party.

The industry will survive but wounded. Grand Design badly, maybe almost mortally wounded. Fifth wheel designs are going to be rethought with more bracing around the front end overhangs. Maybe even a box structure. Going to need to sacrifice wide open large pass throughs for more bracing. Lippert will survive, seems like the effected frames are a relatively small portion of their frame line. But re-engineering on the Grand Design frame specs and revisiting other fifth wheel design concepts. More strength and more weight. Frame flex is going to cause body flex, expansion and contraction on the bodies and attachment locations. Maybe those missing lag bolts/lag screws were supposed to be missing to allow some give in response to flexing, doubt it. Unlikely we'll ever know. Forest River and R-Pods had some similar frame and body challenges in a few models and have emerged with stronger suspensions and strengthened frames.

Imagine if a king pin snapped off commercial trailer , there would be hell to pay

We just bought a new fifth wheel and took Grand Design off the list because of this very issue. We went with Brinkley.

Sheesh. This is frightening! I have a 2022 lightweight Coleman 1805RB....and the shit that I have had repaired and replaced under warranty in the first year is mind boggling....but frame flex in a unit that is 2.5 to 3 times heavier than mine....Yikes!

There’s folks that bought used the rig under 2 years old that grand design refuse s to fix .. a warranty not follow a second owner even tho the rig is still under warranty? That’s not right !

How do you not know your weight in the first place. This should be the first thing you check.

I'm glad the KZfaqrs are getting somewhere with these issues. When are they going to take care of us normal people? Its too a point now there needs to be a recall . The TSB states its for the 2021,2022,2023 momentum & Solitude units. Why not just put the fix in before a failure occurs ? What about it Grand Design ??

Why can’t you take your three axle Momentum out in the boondocks, how else are you going to your SXS, ATV,OR motor out to where you can ride it, that why they make TOY HAULERS. They need to build them so you can do what they are supposed to do. If they can’t do what they advertise the to do then they should not advertise them that way. If they can’t haul what they are supposed to then don’t manafactor them, or build them so they will do what you say they.

See prior commit

We need as owners a way to compare the frames wall thickness and strength of frames before we buy.

Im a welder and I zoomed into the pictures at the start of this video and I cant believe the turds that they call a weld! Welded only on one side of a structural post, on the right of the picture on the vertical goose neck has no welds? WTF? They certainly don’t have certified welders working on these units! My 12 year old daughter welds better than this! Pathetic! Im glad I don’t own a Grand Design! Im tied of the 💩the RV industry are selling. Class action is warranted here!

the pin box issue I do not believe anything they say, if the distance from the pin to the location on the trailer is equal to original then they are just looking for an excuse. stop buying the junk and force them to do the right thing. raising the price doesn't fix it lower your profit which all goes to stock holders FU the stock holder.

Topic: learn to weigh your rig.1st,there are certified public scales at most truckstops. Ex; loves,pilot flying j,t/a.cost around 10-20 bucks.drive on scale put front axle on 1 platform,drive axle on another and trailer will follow for 3 positions on scale ticket.hit the button to speak w/attendant.give info and tell them 1st weigh and you will reweigh.drop trailer and pull truck on scale in same position and tell them 2nd weigh.go in to fuel desk to pay.the ticket will show you gross plus axle weights.if you take the 1st 2 axle weights and subtract the 1st 2 axle weight from the truck only ticket that will give you the weight placed on the 5th wheel by the trailer.take the full gross and subtract the truck only and you have gross trailer weight.find max specs for your axles,springs and tires.your axle weight divided by the number of tires will insure tires are not overloaded.any questions about scaling, ask a trucker.most not all are helpful and knowledgeable.hope this helps..it is very important.overloaded on any axle is deadly dangerous.

It sounds like the name should be, Grand Decline!!!

No. I'm from Elkhart/South Bend/Mishawaka, IN, where most of the RVs are made. I now live in SW Utah where the RVs are driven. There are plenty of upper middle class that will buy the RVs and plenty of State and National Parks in the Southwest that will accommodate them. Trust me, there are a lot of buyers available.

they need to replace your unit with a new frame, and you need to see it before they build to confirm it was welded correctly.

You discuss the leaf springs commonly used and not wanting them, you also commented on seeing units with straight springs which indicates that they are seriously overloaded weather or not from the factory or the owners loading too much stuff. These springs will not hold up to that usage and will fail. Maybe the manufacturer should put 8k axles and springs on the unit or even 9k. I have a friend that had problems getting his 2 axle unit level with the hitch and truck units he was using. This obviously overloads one of the axles and caused him innumerable problems and when an axle is overloaded then it will bottom out causing immense strain on the entire frame that has to absorb this energy somewhere. A question that comes to mind is did you have to install the independent suspension or was it done at the manufacturer? Which ever method was used, was it done to the sticker weight or the actual weight, hopefully after some loading? It would be interesting to take some new units across the scale and see how they compare to the stickers. Also take some units new or in-service across independent wheel scales, weighing each axle separate from the others to see if one axle is carrying more than it is rated for! Keep up the great videos and good luck.

I agree with you 💯 . All the manufacturers are doing just like GD.

I was planning on buying a used 2019 381m, put a deposit on it and pickup will be end of month. Trailer has less than 3k miles on it and has no signs of damage in the key areas that everyone have found damage due to frame flex. Is every model having this problem or just certain models? Are 100% of GD 5th wheels having this problem or only a small percentage? Should I walk away from this purchase?

normally when you engineer something you engineer to take 3 times the load it is rated for.

Didn't some of the Grand Design people start the Brinkley Brand? That's my understanding.

I watched the Lippert video. The Lippert guy claimed that the frame and the walls together create the strength. That to me sounds like there is some truth in that. But then you see riggs with slides or big windows just 3-4 feet behind the pinbox?

Leaf springs break if overloaded or old

The only real solution is a class action lawsuit. It will take many to step up for a group of lawyers to hit them with a class action lawsuit. Individuals speaking to them will get nothing from them. They (Grand Design) will toss you from pillar to post claiming that they are not at fault. You will get the same from the frame manufacturer as well. Lawyers will sort through the mess and bring those at fault and make them pay up.

I am holding off on purchasing a Grand Design 5th-wheel, or even a 5th-wheel at all. The manufacturer should be liable to fix ANY of their products with this problem, regardless of the ownership.

Sooooo...people who finance these rigs have to maintain the rigs in a way that keeps the value of the rig because it is collateral. If the rig is broken, and the insurance companies consider it a defect and not by accident, then the loan company can demand that the rig get fixed by the owner/debtor so it can retain its collateral value(?). It is possible that Banks may decide not to provide loans on rigs that have been identified as possible "frame flex" candidates. There are a lot of entities that are impacted or could be impacted by this.

Yes sir it's time to MAN UP

I hate to say this, but one of the youtubers that was pointing out. This problem said his insurance can't be told him if he would have said he hit a bump in the road and then had the Frame flex. It would have been covered.

Oh how I I’ve my tiny Runaway Rouser.

🔥🔥 my name is stick and I am an expert witness regarding the RV industry. I don’t understand why is it that the RV industry refuses to put air ride suspension on the frames? That way the coach would get a soft ride think about it. The leaf springs are extremely short from the front to the back on each axle which gives the coach a stiffer ride. They really don’t care. Also, think about this when is the last time you ever heard of an RV dealership giving the customer the documentation to show that the coach is completely safe in operation regarding the LP gas system and other aspects of the coach They don’t even do complete pre-delivery inspections on the lot before they put the coaches on the lot for sale I wonder why maybe because they don’t want to pay their technicians to do that 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

Well 1st 2nd 3rd owners ect should not matter as this is a safety issue and should be a callback issue Which car dealers fix right away no matter who the owner is

Grand designs is not alone!! Montana and Eagle are also having problems. All fifth wheels should be recalled and repaired. Pathetic design and workmanship. Just to save a penny they send us down the road in a dangerous and potentially deadly situations. I have an Eagle and I’m contacting a lawyer next week !!

Government gets in all other businesses time to regulate the RV industry, but with regulation comes higher costs! Maybe time for a class action lawsuit..

So glad we walked away from GD. This is heartbreaking to all these owners.

You guys need to look up and go buy a Brinkley RV.

We almost converted from a class a rig to a 5th wheel . No way class a . Only

First thing I don’t own a Grand Design but a great family that a lot of people know from KZfaq. Has giving up full time RVing due to this problem. That in my mine is very sad that’s this family, and other RVers have quit or are not able to use their RVs to live full time. And what about RV family that have sold everything to go full time now having these issues. These RV company’s need to step up and take care of these RV owners too. What would happen if people quit buying RVs they need to think about that.

I almost bought one glad I didn't.!!!!

BS on the Honey/Vinegar analogy. I've been dealing with Keystone for 2 years now on 2 different Montanas with broken frames. Honey has gotten me virtually no where. You have to be stern and tell them exactly what you want, or they will brush you off until you give up. We're looking for a new rig right now, and we have absolutely written off GD as an option. Shame because we were very close to deciding on a Solitude or Momentum right when all of this started to come out.

to many are calling the owners out and some may over load due to mis-informed by dealers and the manufacturers. so no matter how they spin, it falls on them. they use questionable materials and questionable welding. all welds should go thru inspection by a third party company LOL one that can't be bought to look the other way.

Why are we not hearing about this problem with Alliance, Jayco Seismics, Mobile Suites, etc.? Btw, KZfaqrs "Happily Every Hanks" had a leaf spring break on their Solitude.

Do you think this will raise the price of RV’s or lower them.

Class Action Lawsuit

What year did grand design start having frame problems? Looking at a 2017 now. Wouldnt buy a 150 series at all.

Every company/manufacturer is cutting corners due to global hyper-inflation. Expect to experience poor quality and watered down products in smaller packages for more money and plenty of counterfeits.

Why would you have a toyhauler that can't go off road? The highways in Arizona are worse than our off road trips. If campers are not made for off road that should be in big letters across their brochure

What I can say is this last RV for me is my last. They are expensive, mostly sloppy in their Fit and Finish, warranty work is a challenge and the resell value sucks (other than Airstream). They seem to hold up for about 4-5 years and then problems arise even if you maintain religiously (like I do). The RV industry owns this problem and unless the consumer turns their back on them and no longer accepts the overpriced poorly designed and made rigs they sell today, they are going to tank their own industry.

Don't count on that! I work on RV'S every day.

If they are overweight off of the dealer's "floor" GD has some very serious legal issues ahead of them. This could get really ugly.

The Lemon Law would change everything. Why do you think the rv manufacturers lobby against it.

4 season does not mean full time warranty.Using a rv 4 weeks a year is a lot different from 52 weeks.

The manufacturers really don't care. That is why most warranties are only a year. They have your money and turn their backs.

It is Frame Failure!!! Class action law suit time!!! They also need certified welders, there welds looks like a 10 year old did them!!!

Sounds like this has all the makings of a class action lawsuit.

Maybe if enough people that owned these RV should writer their Congressman,or women congress in their state,have congressional hearing on the matter how unsafe these rv. I wonder why the car industry do not complain if we have rule we have to follow and regulations.

Did this issue exist before Winnebago bought Grand Design? I believe that was in 2016

RV's went from occasional weekend use to sustained usage, weeks at a time to year round. The industry encouraged this "lifestyle" view, with the presumption rigs were designed and built to support that marketed/advertised lifestyle. So now you get lots of people. However, we can't built robust enough rigs because people cannot afford the tow vehicle and that would hinder sales. So they cut corners in three ways: reduce the safety factor in engineered structures to lighten the rig. Every engineered structure, be it frames or walls, is designed to a certain load "plus" a margin for adverse conditions. Cut the margin and you save weight and money. Two: build the rig closer to its maximum specification, BUT not allow for "typical customer loadout" that happens as the customer uses the rig as intended (back to the lifestyle view). Three: design the interior load bearing members, cabinetry, etc to a certain standard for vibration and sheer stress, BUT not to levels typically seen during "normal" use (as expected in the marketed lifestyle) for number of times driven, hitched/ unhitched, adverse road conditions, etc. Then, do not truly educate the customer as to how much they can actually load out, number of times they can move, best tow vehicle they need etc, so that customer will buy (as in the marketed lifestyle). So you get a rig not designed for the loads and levels of wear it is subjected to and it fails. Complicate this with poor mfg quality and systemic violations of established processes and you raise the risk factor a lot. But, it is easier to foist it off on the dealers and use strong contract language for arbitration and non-disclosure to protect profits.

I don't own a 5th wheel (I own a TT), but having done plenty of fabricating in the past. Whatever Grand Design or any of the manufacturers do to "fix" the problem won't work. If what they are saying is true, that there should be some flex (and I believe that to be true) then their fix will cause other problems. They are strengthening/stiffening certain areas and just transferring that load/stress to a different part of the frame. It will then fail there. From the videos I've seen of the fixes, it will transfer the problem to where the neck attaches to the main deck frame. Problem NOT solved. Someone's engineers have royally messed up, and I suspect it isn't Lippert since they are building to Grand Design and others's specs.

They are advertising to take them off road especially the toy hauler s ..!

It wasn't Boeings falt that the door fell off. Boeing does not do the maintenance on the plane after it is sold to TWA or whoever buys it. It there people that do the maintenance and safety checks.

Why don't you park your equipment infront of their main office with a sign saying LEMON! I will bet you that they would start complying with fix

Going to buy a brinkley GD customer service does not take care of there customer

Its hard to believe that they could be off with the weights that much, but nothing is out of the question these days. I weighed my 2019 381M on the way home from the dealer, and it was really close considering we had put a few things in it already. *edit for spelling

Clearly GD does not take care of their customers. Never Grand Design. I bought a new GD Reflection once. Never again.

And Sadly these units are 100K plus! For the most part!who can afford this?

Dye job to Dark.

And yet RVIA will have no issue slapping their sticker on each rig in exchange for that sweet, sweet mfg money.

GD must have a lousy PR dept.

Tom this frame flex / failure has been around for 114 years

When the manufacturers were family owned there was pride and accountability in their products... Since the big corporations have bought out the businesses the college indoctrinated cubicle dwelling have ran the numbers and all of them build to the specs of travel average 75-100 miles twice a year, 2-4 weeks of operation and the other 48-50 weeks sitting still ... Don't need much quality for that and they build accordingly...

Our new RV has a 10,000 lbs cargo capacity..see it says so right on the sticker so it MUST be true! And full time living...of course,and you can drive it off a cliff with NO PROBLEM!!

Shame on grand design.