Thanks to Dr. Ortlund for having this discussion with me and for his kindness and forthrightness. Appreciated the dialogue very much.

Hey Gavin. Just wanted to thank you for your videos. I'm recently coming out of Mormonism (born & raised), and have been trying to figure out exactly where I fit in greater Christianity as I shed my old worldview and accept new truths. One thing I've realized as I've done so is that my previous Mormon worldview conditioned me to view things like Catholicism and Protestantism in specific ways. Your channel has been very helpful in breaking down many years of misconceptions with Protestantism as I try to navigate my way through these changes in my life. Keep up the good work.

What an amazing job at representing protestantism. Something all protestants can actually be proud to call their representative thanks Gavin

The chief end of men is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever ❤

As a catholic, I’ve been praying that Catholics, orthodox, and Protestants can have more meaningful dialogue and conversations and realize the things we have in common and fight alongside each instead of against each other so much.

Gavin, you opened this discussion with a back and forth talking about ways that Catholics and Protestants can collaborate closely, and one of the key points you landed on was simply having peaceful and honest disagreements without assuming ill motive. Listening to this dialogue is a powerful testimony to the power of Christ just from its tone alone because both of you are doing a fantastic job of hearing each other out and discussing your positions without acrimony or snide insults and the like. Both to Christians and non-christians I think it is a powerful example of way in which to disagree without disdaining one another.

I pray that Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox will listen to each other and pursue truth. 🙏

One day, when all who belong to Christ stand before Him, perhaps we will be able to look at each other and say, "So that's what He meant!"

This is what I have gotten from reading Thomas Cranmer. The Glory of God is to love the unworthy. And what a beautiful message.

Loved this discussion. Gavin, you got me thinking on that last part where you said that our only true enemy is Satan and his demons. Not Catholics, not Orthodox members, not non Christians but Satan.

Thank you for this Gavin! You are impacting the entire Kimgdom more than you know. A major Christian leader from Western Europe speaking here. Please, keep building those bridges. Do not give up. The body of Christ thirsts for them for ages.

One of the best Catholic Protestant debates I’ve heard. Thank you Gavin for being so clear and careful with how you answer each question and thank you for your irenic spirit

It was Church Militant that led me to TU. I heard Michael Voris pray to Mary and called her "Queen of the Universe". I found such a title troubling and started learning more about Catholicism. My concern has only heightened the more I understand Catholic Dogma and the anathemas that are used to protect papal infallibility.

Gavin, you’re one of the few reasons I am still a Protestant. You’re doing amazing work. God bless.

I found this conversation to be a breath of fresh air Gavin. In the past, I have seen others and other Catholic Apologists talk with you about the differences (mostly) and similarities between Protestantism and Catholicism and I've always walked away with the notion that nobody on the Catholic side of the aisle is particularly interested in fellowship in the holy catholic, apostolic faith. For example, your debate, and follow up conversation with Trent Horn really came off as though Trent didn't want to grant Protestantism any ground, was only looking to show "Catholicism correct, while Protestantism is wrong." Here, I see a genuine interest in healthy discussion and fellowship. As a Protestant, I struggle often with Catholic brothers who enter into the conversation completely unwilling to hear out arguments, have a good faith conversation, or not willing to see/steelman those who disagree with their doctrines, dogmas, and views. As a result, it makes it a struggle to not look at many Catholics with a less than hospitable light. As much as I disagree with many traditions of Catholicism (raised as one myself until my 20s, when I became convinced by Protestantism), I have to force myself to remember there are fundamentals in the apostolic faith that we agree on, and to remind myself that crucial items such as the Divinity of Christ, the truth of the Trinity, and where grace and salvation come from are likely things we share. Thank you for this strong, productive conversation that shows Catholics and Protestants are of the Body of Christ together and it does not always need to be so hostile/argumentative.

God Bless you, as always, Gavin. Your willingness to talk with Catholics is so refreshing and is probably why so many of us Catholics subscribe to your channel and enjoy your videos.

The way they worship Mary is the big problem for me. It’s too bad they defend it so doggedly. It’s such a stretch and was added later. It’s just become so entrenched in their tradition that they can’t let it go.

David seems like a nice guy, and sincere, but he looks and sounds very threatened by you. I don't think that's a mark on his character but a matter of his depth of knowledge on these topics. He knows a lot of facts about these things but doesn't seem to have sorted through all the pertinent questions regarding them.

Gavin makes me feel like I'm watching history.

Gavin, you are so kind in your discussion. I wish to be as gracious as you in my faith discussions.

Wonderful dialogue! Felt like I was there. Always glad to see conversations like this. I think you perfectly modeled what unity can look like in the midst of our moment in time

Great job during this discussion, Gavin 👏 As always, you've put forth yet a phenomenal example of what irenic-yet-uncomprimising dialogue looks like. Keep up the awesome work!

Great video. It is great relief to hear an actual dialog instead of debate.

God bless you immensely. You've been of great help. God bless your ministry and family ❤🙏

This was such a beautiful talk, thanks for doing this! Love hearing from our Catholic siblings~.

I'm not a very good Christian but I do appreciate these videos

The more I watch these dialogues the more I understand why I’m Protestant or simply a follower of Christ and his word. Thank you both.

Great watch, thanks for doing this as always.

Well done Gavin. I appreciate the substance of your arguments and the way in which you approach these discussions. More please!

Well done. The testimony and honor to Christ that comes from Christian brothers discussing tough issues and theological disagreements cannot be overstated. For me of course, the Protestant positions that you articulated and articulate, clearly win the day in the debate and dialog. But, the WAY in which the dialogs and debates are engaged is immensely important. Thanks for the great work!

Catholics are to dogmatic on the point of Mary that you cannot be saved without affirmation of those dogmas, even to where they say you are anathema and Jesus can no longer save you by grace through faith. This is 100% the 1st reason people should think to be protestant.

Thank you Pastor! The more I watch you dialogue with those of different beliefs, the more I learn how to respectfully disagree yet hold fast to biblical truths in not only those within the church but outside of the church also.

What a great discussion, thank you both!

Great job Dr. Ortlund. This helped me tremendously!

What a great discussion!

It’s nice seeing two guys discuss levelheaded, informative, respectful counters, and overall respect for each other as humans and highly educated people. Being seeing a lot of hostile contentions lately, this was a good reminder of the love for one another we’re told to have. 🙌

Is it just me or did it look like the host wanted to lash out several times but kept it cool?😂 great conversation and representation Dr. Ortlund!

Well done, Gavin - and just want to commend you for the gentle and gracious yet clear correction at 57:54. It is vital that Catholics (and all who call themselves Christian) understand that it is not baptism that saves, but trust in Jesus.

Dr. Ortlund's gentle but firm assertion of the Protestant positions is pleasing.

This was a really productive and positive dialogue. Did not feel any bad faith argumentation or assumptions of ill motives. Thank you and God bless ❤

Great video!

I appreciate the discussion:)

Great discussion! Excellent job articulating the Protestant concerns as always, Dr. Ortlund!

This was helpful to me as it was laid out in a way my tired brain could access it. Thanks to both of you. Would love to see one with someone from the eastern orthodox church as well.

Gavin, thank you for taking on a debate like this. It was quite helpful and I feel you did an excellent job of gently and respectfully defending our Protestant faith. I would have liked you to have in some way more intentionally addressed the issue of works salvation. When I ask a Catholic, "When you stand before God, if He asks you 'Why should I let you into heaven?', what would you say?" so many of them immediately say they believe in Jesus, and faithfully attend church and confession and take the Eucharist. Regardless of what the Catholic church officially teaches - the people in the pews are often relying on Jesus PLUS their good works. That is a VERY serious and tragic problem. I'd add that one of the issues I try to bring up about praying to Mary is that is goes against our very purpose as Christians... i.e. to glorify God and it goes against the heart of the reason Jesus came to earth... i.e. to reconcile us to God and enable us to have an intimate Father-Son relationship with Him, My heart is just SO grieved whenever I see people praying to Mary. It robs Jesus of glory and the intimacy He longs for with us. Please keep up the good work. I'm praying for God to continue to bless and use your important ministry.

You did a really good job.

I appreciate the sincerity of our Roman Catholic friends and neighbors. There is much to admire in the Roman tradition but the irreformability of the RC church is the impasse. Dollinger said of Pius IX after Vatican I "He created a new church". I'd say that ship sailed at Constance with the burning of Hus but Dollinger's sentiment is correct.

Amazing

Gavin, I think this video contains some of your finest facial expressions.

That was a really good video. I would really like to see more and I wish we could all have discussions in this respectful manner. I think as Christians we are called to be different.

The ultimate North Star is looking back to the deposit of Christianity as it is in the NewTestament. Correct Gavin! K

Thank god for such a discussion, it is never easy to try and reach intellectually the eye level common ground with a formal different position of your own, but if it has to be done [or more precisely believed that should be done] - may it be through dialogue and not the toxic debate mentality.

Great job Dr. Ortlund! You did an excellent job presenting your arguments in a very respectful way. It's a good example for all Christians to follow. Especially, as you expressed that people on the outside looking in should find us behaving in a loving manner. I would ask you to sometime in the future to cover the teachings of Vatican II. The teachings of that council greatly trouble me. Specifically, concerning salvation for people who reject Jesus. That seems to contradict all previous Roman Catholic doctrines. I have read statements from Pope's, bishops, and priests who believe this and openly teach it.

So refreshing to see a discussion on where we can find common ground ⛪️

I wish Gavin would do a video on why early Protestants completely rejected the Mass. We have lots of videos on why the Protestants rejected purgatory, the papacy, and indulgences, but none about their abhorrence of the Mass.

Thanks Dr Ortlund for your charity and thoughtful responses. When you both were speaking of the ‘seed and tree being the same ‘oakness’ it occurred to me that the deposit of faith given to the apostles is like conception of a child in the womb. All the life, her limbs, her characteristics and traits are present at that earliest moment- until manifest.

@37:45 mark...."what is the basis of authority in the Christian religion?"...David Gordon's answer is ONE of the reasons that I cannot agree with roman Catholicism...."the church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth"..... how does anyone think that our SCRIPTURE isn't the pillar of truth? THANK YOU Gavin for your patience and for your informative answers!

loved david gordon, this is my first exposure to him and enjoyed it a lot

Hey brother, thanks for this important discussion. It shows we just need to educate ourselves in basic theology and basic church history to have good responses to Rome, and we can do it with charity. I'm learning from these videos and am very grateful for your ministry.

These Catholic concerns about the Eucharist in Protestantism always ignores the Anglicans and Lutherans. The Eucharist is absolutely central to we Anglicans and our communion partner Lutherans. I wish Catholic apologists would stop considering only Evangelical groups like Baptists and non-denominationals, when discussing Protestantism.

Works are important to both Catholics and Protestants. For Catholics works contribute to our salvation for Protestants works are a consequence of our salvation.

Watching Gavin literally biting his lip while David is talking is quite amusing. :)

What Christ said to Peter says nothing about a bishop of Rome having that authority.

"Peter, James, and John didn't have time to explain every possible inference..." Yes, but the problem is that many later developments are not valid inferences at all, and that is precisely the point and purpose of appealing to the teachings of Christ, the apostles, and the earliest church witness to attempt to discern what is or is not correct doctrine. Just ask a Roman apologist to provide a valid argument for Papal Supremacy. You'll get a word salad. If we cannot show that something genuinely is a valid inference, then we have no business mandating it.

Dr. Ortlund, great video (and channel) thank you for your labor of love. Question. One thing that wasn’t brought up was the doctrine of justification by faith alone. I’ve always understood that to be one of the most important differences between us if not the most important. And Paul in Galatians sees that as a very important issue. I’m just wondering, why didn’t you bring this up? Honest question.

LoL catholic man says Mary’s bodily assumption is in John’s Revelation! John’s Revelation: “She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬-‭6‬. John says the Baby(Jesus) is taken into Heaven and the woman(Mary) is cast into the wilderness and is never taken into Heaven. LoL, John refutes Marian dogma.

David seemed unsettled. Not in a bad way but my feeling his the spirit was reaching him.

I cannot wait until there are more out spoken people like Gavin. I disagree with some of his theological points, but historical Protestants deserve not to be straw manned. I think it will help with discussion so much as we have more people like him.

I think David could have allowed Dr. Ortlund to talk more. A little too many interruptions

I think a common frustration i have is Augustine for example isn't really early. Three centuries is a long time. The revolutionary war didn't occur three hundred years ago. There's kind of an attempt to push the "early" church into the post nicea 1 era.

Right after Matthew 16:18 Peter makes an error so great that Jesus called him Satan in 16:23. The first pope got his first declaration wrong. Think about it.

dialogues are way better than formal debate... just straight to the point. Not gonna lie, I was curious to know ortlund stance on contraception...😂😂 Also as a Catholic, I never heard of David Gordon. I was pretty impressed with him as well.

I knowi shouldn't confess this, but i am grateful for the thumbnails for many reasons, including that i can skip the book recommendedations 😬🤩

I'm confused. How did you film a dialogue with a man in 1995?

Nice to see a measured conversation ... on some streams disagreement = hating whoever you disagree with ... and accusations of being in league with satan

The Gordon brothers seem honest to me. Whatever my disagreements are/were with them, it was never the case that i felt like they were trying to pull one over on me (like downplaying anathemas and things akin to that). Their approach is more a battering ram, which i can appreciate.

Keep pushing back, Gavin! Make them prove their beliefs with actual proofs and not philosophical arguments.

Thanks again Gavin. Mr. Gordon never answered your historical arguments against the Marian doctrines mentioned. Always changed the subject. Never answered. So obvious. Couldn't help but mention it.

Thank you Dr. Ortlund for emphasizing and ending with the way to be a part of God's family -- through faith in The Truth & repentance, & not in baptism as Catholics believe (although being baptized after belief shows obedience, a showing you're following Christ as your Lord).

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” -2 James White 3:16

What a moment 32:34

I thoroughly appreciate your thoughts, Dr Ortlund. I indeed think you’re one of the best Protestant apologists out there. As a Catholic, I am particularly interested in your concerns regarding Mariology. I’d love to hear you describe your beliefs/ideas on popular Marian apparitions. Having been to Lourdes and hearing about, as well as witnessing a miraculous cure, I really would like to know the Protestant perspective on the vast numbers of miracles happening at Lourdes (i.e. Mary declared herself to be the Immaculate Conception to St Bernadette at Lourdes, and if this is not true from the Protestant perspective, why are miracles taking place at a Marian shrine?) Also, the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the mystical way in which the image is imprinted on it is another phenomenon. I know these are matters of private revelation, but I just don’t see how they can be ignored. Regardless, keep up the good work of honest ecumenism. God bless.

16:59 "if the infinite son of God descended into the womb of a woman, then we should talk to each other with a sense of restraint; that should humble us yo the dust"

As a subdeacon in Byzantine Catholic Church who grew up in a Dutch Calvinist tradition I applaud Gavin Ortlund enthusiasm and commitment to the apostolic faith and not provincial or local theolegumenon not attested universally. No Catholic or Orthodox should disagree on this. For that I encourage my Evangelical brothers and sisters to consider St Cyril's seven Marian homilies at Council of Ephesus defending the veneration of Mary as Theotokos, the Akathist to Theotokos at the closing session, and on his second letter to Nestorius read at the Council defending the Eucharistic adoration of the unbloody sacrifice. Add to that the Chalcedonian fathers visited and venerated the shrine of St Euphemia at Chalcedon during the Council of Chalcedon petitioned her apparition and intercession during the Council. These were not provincial or local but rather everywhere and at all times professed since the beginning. Do these sound like late Medieval corruption or ancient faith to you? May the Lord grant you peace.

Certain Catholic apologists views on scripture, and the canon seem to be in tension. The council of rome never declared the canon. The gelasian decree is a later forgery. The idea that two north african councils one a synod, one a local council 400 years in decided the canon for all of Christendom is a bit odd. I think possibly it is the need for some of the inter testimontal books to provide oroof texts for purgatory for example that drives this argument. The RCC position is really a house of cards.

What does this Catholic admire about Protestantism? Gavin mentioned some good about C, but I didn't hear the same from Mr. Gordon...

Mr. Gordon tried to appeal to the the little seed acorn turns into a big tree analogy that I heard from Steve Ray years ago.

Good conversation. It just seemed like the host follows the tradition that "X Bible passage means this therefore our tradition is taught by the Bible" when the tradition has to pre exist to believe that's what the Bible is talking about.

Protestants do believe the Lord's table is important but we think its symbolic and not literally transforming into flesh and blood

😂😂😂 the look on Gavin’s face when the other guys talks about Mary

Much of what I see is something Gavin mentions often, that is, reading into the text later realities. That 1 Timothy passage has no context establishing some sort of post apostolic hierarchy, it’s practically a quick thought and passing line he uses describing the churches in general. It’s so odd how such seemingly simple passages get twisted to mean such large and determinative things.

The Roman church HAS changed things substantially! clever words and arguments from the RC side but not holding any water I am afraid. K

Dr. Ortland, as always, I'm impressed by your ability to be direct while maintaining such an erudite and polite posture. It's a skill I'm trying to learn. I have a follow-up question concerning seeing Mary in Rev. 12. As a protestant looking into this topic, I also have not found any direct ante-Nicene reference to Mary as the woman. My question comes from finding that there are earlier fathers, including Hypolitus, who was famously clear about the woman being the church in Rev 12; he would also speak clearly that Mary is the church's mother in his commentary on Psalm 22. I imagine he received this from his teacher Ireneaus, who thought (AH 3:22:4) of Mary as the new Eve, with Christ as the new Adam. My question is this: if Mary is the new Eve, as Irenaeus argued, and she is also the mother of the church, as Hylopitus suggested, then it seems that a dual interpretation of the woman from Rev. 12 as The church and Mary does follow sound doctrinal precedence, even if its final construction is late? We accept the trinity upon a similarly late, final construction. So, if all the pieces are present in the earlier writings, I'm unsure how to know which later doctrinal developments we can consider valid and which should be viewed with suspicion.

The Orthodox consider the Septuagint (LXX) to be authoritative, and some of the earliest forms of it that were used in the early Church included these additional books. With that said, some of the manuscripts did not include them. Whereas some scholars like Jerome opted only to include books that were present in all manuscripts (and in some cases, that he felt were originally written in Hebrew), others were content to pass on what they received and recognized that early hand-copied codices (pre-printing-press) had some variability. Also, the concept of “canon” is more a western idea. The books were more fluid in the Eastern churches (and arguably still are, as some groups within Orthodoxy have different lists of books). The Orthodox were more concerned about the lectionary: books to be read aloud in liturgical settings, which did not mean other books should be excluded, but wasn’t as much about “authority” as in the west. Jews in Alexandria maintained a different, wider canon than Palestinian Jews. Whereas Palestinian Jews in the first century basically adhered to what would become the rabbinic canon of 24 books attested to by Josephus at the end of the first century (95 CE). In Alexandria however Jews had accepted all of these books and then some, especially the deuterocanonical (Wisdom) books that are found in LXX manuscripts (330 BCE). The Palestinian Jews deposed of The Book of Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Psalms, Song of Solomon (Song of Songs), Wisdom of Solomon, and Ecclesiasticus (Wisdom of Sirach) because all of these books/writings attested to who Jesus of Nazareth Was, Is, and His Fulfillment of the God’s Promise in the Jewish Scriptures as the Messiah. Essentially The Protestant Canon “is a Canon Without Wisdom (Books).” Question? What will Protestants Do Should the Apostolic Churches, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Latin-Roman Catholics at the Council of Nicea 2025 re-establish Communion? All having 7 Sacraments, a Hierarchial Order, and All Venerate The Most HolyTheotokos and the Saints, The Holy Ecumenical Councils, Holy Tradition, Holy Icons and Relics?

No ecumenical mixing with Rome. We teach different doctrines. Rome teaches a different way of salvation! A different way of Justification. We cannot condone basic biblical doctrinal error. Maybe there are some similarities about what we believe about God and other things in general - but the stuff we disagree on are vital to salvation. k

I find the Catholic question about how the early heresies came about is easy to understand. The influences of the various pagan and pseudo-christian cults were the cause of the confusion. As people from Greek and Roman pagan religion and philosophy entered the church, they brought that view point to interpreting the scriptures.

The eucharist issue was very 'rushed', but it may have been for a reason. My understanding of the presence of Christ in the Eucharist needed more depth. It was almost misleading to agree on this as Dr Ortlund's understanding is still more spiritual rather than it physically being the body of Christ. Unless I misunderstood something? Good, but rather brief discussion. Thank you. Gonna check Dr O's Rev 11 and 12 video and research Thomast? Philosophy. Cherrio.

I certainly appreciate your Candor and Peaceful demeanor. With regards to the Holy Theotokos, as Early Christians would not have had the level of cognizance that we do after a 2000 year history. This would be akin to their early wrestling with ripples and all regarding the divinity and humanity of our Lord, the Trinity, etc... The fact that the Apostolic Churches (Orthodox, Oriental, & Latin) maintain a consistent values, honor, and faith beliefs attest unto itself her dormition/assumption is a cognitive and experiencial discovery with the same level of validity as other central beliefs regarding our Lord which have taken centuries to be sorted out through the Holy Councils. Our Lord gave us a Church with Holy Apostles (Apostolic Tradition & Succession) who gave us the Scriptures (New Testament). It is this same Apostolic Sucession that have sorted out also in Holy Councils the core beliefs of the Christian Faithful in regards to the Holy Theotokos. (Acts 1:12-14) Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. Council of Ephesus: In 431The Council denounced Nestorius' teaching as erroneous and decreed that Jesus was one person (hypostasis), and not two separate persons, yet possessing both a human and divine nature. The Virgin Mary was to be called Theotokos, a Greek word that means "God-bearer" (the one who gave birth to God). Revelation 12:1-6: A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

David’s remarks near the end sounded good accept that he forgot all the anathemas proclaimed by the Catholic Church.

32:38 no because the clear water, or the original deposit of Faith is the clean in Clearwater. So it doesn’t start off muddy, it starts off clear, and then the moment the apostolic fathers pass on the water becomes muddy and what we need to do is look to the deposit of faith in the holy word of God, in order to make sure that we’re always self-correcting only to follow what can be, what can be confirmed by the word of God