Hi Ryan, cool testing, as usual. Regarding the 40 years old rope: I am not surprised. If you use a rope, like in rappelling, the breaking load drops very soon - half of the breaking load is normal. I would be surprised if no one had used it, if it just hung there without anybody ever ascending or rapelling. But I assume that it has been used quite a bit. Under a very good light microscope you can see the difference in the fibers. So - as long as we do not know how they used it - I assume that its the useage and not the age. You could compare it to permanent installed ropes in a climbing gym: After 3 months (no UV, only toprope) the breaking load in the worn part - if you tie there a fig.8-knot - can be around 5 kN (!) - if the route is popular and the gym has many visitors. I would say: 12 kN show that the cave rope has not been used in toprope situations, only for asccending and rapelling (which is less internal damage than bending around a carabiner 180 degres). The mud may have increased the internal damage. By the way: UV does not affect the breaking load that much if you expose it in a south face for only 30 years. It weakens only the sheath.

"I love forcing soft shackles in places they shouldn't be" Me too, man. I use a soft shackle inside our reclining sofas, connected to the framework and then a carabiner that pinches the fabric of a couch cover to hold the inside corners in place. Not as cool but it's the only thing that I can squeeze into that crack.

Love the “caver” shirt. Way more credible for testing caving gear

Great tests and KZfaq channel. I'm a climber in my early 50s have have fair amount of what is considered old equipment even though a lot of it looks to be in good condition. While on belay ledges or dreaming about being on them I often wonder about the need to resling cams after 5 years, tossing out new looking ropes at 10 years, etc. I read that static nylon ropes lose about 1.5 to 2% of their strength per year. I thought that was a pretty interesting metric and ran the math on your 40 year pit rope pull tests and it comes out pretty close. ~5700 lbs new and ~2800 lbs after 40 years of use in darkness. Not bad... You and Bobby are provide a valuable and entertaining service to adventures, engineers and the curious of the world. Keep on breaking stuff and presenting the results.

The thing with degrading gear is, that chemical reactions basically never stop. They just reach a state where it is super slow to go on. The main influences on our gear (ropes and stuff) are heat and UV light which speeds it up. You can google the Q10 value, it gives you a basic idea how temperature is affecting the reaction. So when you put the gear in your closet it is degrading slower but still is degrading.

Can you break test washed rope with different chemicals to eliminate that as a factor in weakening a rope ?

Love that you use metric system, keep it up pal! Cheers from Patagonia

To Bobby's question, I use quick links because I don't have a good way to tie into an anchor when both ends are unavailable. One end is on the top anchor and the other is tied to the bottom of my rope bag.

Huh, I've only heard of using soft shackles in vehicle recovery so when the line inevitable breaks you don't have a 2lb metal shackle flying towards your head at mach-12

40 years in a closet is one thing....40 years in a wet cave with extensive use is another lol

I've experimented with the zepplin knot before and I found that they can untie themselves when loaded and unloaded repeatedly. I found this especially bad if the rope was stiff like some caving ropes are.

I have an 11 mm climbing rope that has never been used and kept in a closet for 25 years. Are you nterested in testing it?

I'm impressed by the old rope! The air in a cave is not like in your house - it's quite aggressive (look at how fast most metals are destroyed there); and more than half of the original strength after that long period of time... that gives me a lot of confidence!

That's actually incredible, I always thought the Zeppelin Bend would decrease breaking strength massively because of the fact it has ropes pulling on each other at 90°. Guess I was wrong and the Zeppelin bend can become my favourite knot once again!

I have a 46 year old Eidelrid I retired. I climbed for 15 years on it. Then I climbed another 15 on another waterproof rope. Now I use the Eidelrid to tie stuff down in my trailer. I also used it to lower tree branches when not wanting to hit something below. I have used it many times a a safety on roofs. I do not store it in the sun. Built a climbing wall in my garage 25 years ago. Used it for self arrest so I would not hit concrete. I would never throw a rope away. Might not lead on it though. Used "cracken ups" that I never bent or broke for aid climbs. Way back when I remember the being taught Goldline was for rappeling and those sheathed nylon ropes were for climbing. I lost my Goldline and just started using my Eidelrid for everything. You get used to the stretch.

Test totems in tipped out / Passive placements!

my thoughts is the dust/dirt would degrade the rope, it would be interesting to find some new old stock rope that has been kept dust free

Great setup for testing. Enjoying the content. Have a good day everyone!

I really enjoyed the creativity of this episode

"Common sense takes the fun out of thing" Should be the new slogan here

You’re finally getting more subscribers. You deserve it. Good job!

my scout leaders told us dirt getting in between the fibres weakens ropes because the sharp edges of the particles cut at the fibres

The Boy Scouts lied to me! We were told the square knot was the best way to combine two ropes

Regarding the loop in the zeppelin bend, it's way easier to pass a knot (either direction) if there is a place where you can attach an point of contact. In caving we always try to have 2 points of contact whenever fiddling with stuff. If two lines are tied together without a loop my process to ascend past that would be something like this: 1. Ascend as high as I can without jamming my hand ascender against the knot. 2. Attach a prusik above the knot and attach my short cow's-tail to it. 3. Verify that I have 3 points of contact. 4. Detach my hand ascender and reattach it above the knot. 5. Step up on my foot loop, disengage my chest ascender and attempt to reattach it above the knot. 6. Double check and go. If there's a loop in the system you don't have to worry about prusik, especially if the rope is muddy, wet, and slick. Also descending past it is way easier with a loop.

Hello from New England

Fun fact: "Pingo" in portuguese means "Drop" in english. I wish I saw more of them here in my area in Rio de Janeiro

Never thought a poorperson´s chimney video would be so interesting

any idea what that rope was rated for when it was made 40 years ago? i have to assume materials and design have changed since then

What was the technology 40 years ago, was that old rope's full strength actually the same as it is today?

Really interesting, new static ropes can reach even 30 kN of strength, but it has to be considered the knot type that has been used to tie the rope. Mud and sand can really damage the rope, especially when they are going inside to fibers, but 20 years rope in caves (I know it from some tests), if not exposed to mud but only to water and to the wear of rappelling and ascending are totally secure. Another factor to consider is not only the load of rappelling and ascending but even the stress caused by the rupture of an anchor in rebelay. PS I see that you use Raumer O-Wing, I'm happy to see that his material is used in the US too, Raumer (that is settled not so far from where I live) has done the history of caving with a lot of innovative stuff.

You can knot the rope into the anchor plate directly (also in the middle of the rope) with a "double Bulin" before screwing it to the anchor like you mentioned. That way you don't need a Quicklink or the Soft Shackle at all, which is the lightest, cheapest an safest version I would say. Only thing is that you need to use anchor plates without sharp edges (eg. "Vertical Evolution ALL" but i am sure there are several other brand's producing that), but that's still cheaper and lighter. I do that frequently and have also discussed that with my colleges from cave rescue and I haven't found any drawbacks yet.

I'm sorry the dream of tactical cave soft shackles still eludes you. #thoughtsandprayers

Very interesting one again 😬 Cool shirt by the way 💪🏻

Congrats on 50k!

The way the thimble was attached means the load goes on only two strands of cord. The way soft shackles are usually attached puts the load on four strands.

The soft shackle idea is interesting. That said for the soft shackle I'd be more concerned about abrasion on the rock compromising the shackle. Especially on ascension.

Greeting from the Uk, from a fellow ropes nerd. Petzl ring hangers (not sure if they are still available, Raumer are an alternative ) or clown hangers don’t require a quick links (or as we call then maillon rapide). Both possible to install on the middle of 11mm rope (with a bit of planning). Keep up the good work.

Are you going to do break tests on other caving things, i.e. bobbins, racks, ascenders, etc.?

I saw some rope access guys on the rope hub app (before it disappeared) out in Dubai that left a set of static ropes exposed on a rooftop for 2 years and saw no significant degradation from UV exposure.

Pingo hangers are the future

very good channel, thanks

Have y’all considered pull testing random “no name” bolts like are super common on eBay? There are a bunch of random Chinese 304 SS wedge bolts available for relatively cheap. I’m curious how they break compared to bolts from dewalt or Hilti. I’d be happy to chip in to purchase the bolts for testing.

No scary caves, upvoted.

I want to see a break test on a figure 8 retrace with a double Yosemite finish.

Yeah it is a crossover loop when having to ascend through a knot...

I wonder how many KN are created in a fall rather than just rappelling?

So the zeppelin broke before the double figure 8s, which presumably means a flemish bend is stronger than a zeppelin bend, although a pig to untie.

I totally share your love of numbers, great job! But, our SAFETY RATIO ESTIMATES are significantly off in all your caving videos! The design basis incident of a single-rope caving set-up is the failure of an intermediate anchor. The hind thought is that the top anchor must be extremely secure, but with intermediates, placing is an equally critical factor to avoid sneaky problems with rope wear. The failure of an intermediate anchor will result in dynamic forces on a static rope, and that is why it is essential to have safety margins in the rope (and all equipment) which might seem insanely high at first glance. Also, for segments with possibly high fall ratios, extra (butterfly) knots might be necessary to improve the shock-absorbing capability of the rope. (To further degrade trust in caving rope technique, you might try to imagine a fall with your croll on the rope from the rope perspective... ouch!)

Can you please pull test the anchor hitch (anchor knot). You loop the rope twice around the carabiener, then go over the loadend and through the loops with the tail. You start the loops at the spine side of the biener not the gate side.

I can't find The Walter guys link that you speak of.

18:59 As those of us who have been here a while know all too well... ;)

At 40 years old, was it just built differrent?

now you know the half life of that rope

The knowledge of rope manufacturing, I'm sure, has changed significantly in 40 yrs. I doubt that old rope would match the strength of the new one even when it was first new.

Never used Zeppelin knot, but the version of anything that has a loop is great. You need a loop at a join and this means you don't have to tie a butterfly hitch as well. Why do you want a loop? Imagine you are srt jumaring up a rope or rappelling down a rope. When you pass the knot you have a loop ready to clip with your cowstail for safety so it's then really really difficult to scr3w up passing the knot and somehow fall off the rope and die. That'd seriously ruin your trip.

Why not just use a bunch of soft shackles chained together?

Perfect video. Of fun and fact

Mud being put into the rope, where it did its abrasion magic, would be my guess. Yet 12kN for 40 year rope is not all that bad.

Were the materials 40 years ago as strong as the newer materials today? Forty years ago were the ropes made as well and as strong as today? I would assume that the technology for rope making would have improved in 40 years. Who knows?

I have a brand new (At the time 2013) that has been in a dry bag and unused since I lost the complete use of my arm and hand, Would that rope still be good? FYI, I got some use back after surgeries and yrs of physio.

Would love to see a break test done on climbing ropes that have a flat spot or kink in them of different sizes/ severities. Iv seen set ropes in small climbing gym that gets very light use, develop small flat spots from people falling at the same spot on the climb. These ropes had to be cut because of safety standards but do those flat spots and kinks actually affect the strength of the rope?

I would use old ropes normally in non life threatening situations.

What's the difference between climbing rope a d cavind rope? I don't know what any of this is.

Most cave are very humid, so it probably degraded from years of water exposure (and the mold that comes with it). It also depends what he rope is made of. Natural material ropes weather very differantly from manmade fiber ropes as they are basically plastic, not cotton or some other cellulose based fiber like the former.

is there nothing that oxidizes rope or off gas from rope? Over time in storage without UV?

I don’t think I could trust the “big knot slipped through loop” technology of the soft shackle

Soft shackles seem to be good enough, but i have a few conserns: 1. in cave you sometimes do some wery veird moves so locked biners are better than some shackles with can unwrap with no safety lock/kont or sth. 2. Caves are dirty - can we be shure, that shackles after few mud runs inside cave are still reliable? It's easier to clean biners and i guess they will have longer "usable" lifespan. 3. if u attatch shackles directly to harness i'm shure u gona have troubles hanging yourself on them while passing throgh tigh spaces.

@HowNOTtoHIGHLINE Ryan, you said Walter Sebert(SP)? did some testing with UV light on ropes things? I don't see the link.

For keep long time ropes, kevlar is the way to go

When are you going to test some climbing harness?

need way mroe info on the old rope. Could literally have been used over time. Also it's not the same rope and likely not the same manufacturing technique.

Sharp dirt and grit particles also cut into the fibers and weaken rope.

maybe the old rope was produced in an inferior way? what was it rated for when it was new?

yeee

👏🏼

U said stinky? As in molding? Like sat in a wet dank cave for 40 years, so no UV but something else eating rope? Guy in comments says he’s got an NOS rope to test?

When are you gonna test those totems you showed on your Instagram???

Here is the missing link to Walter Sieberts channel: m.kzfaq.info/love/q62mVrEfBsGgk-oswsUhpQ

Now I know you may not be a real caver because if you truly were, that caver shirt would have been duct tape! Will I be seeing You at convention?

Spelunking

"Look at that dust" asbestos much?

I hate common sense...very funny

The title is a bit distracting, it is all about soft shackles.

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There are theories as to why a rope left in a cave will degrade over time. There is a difference between an unused rope in a climate controlled environment and permanent rope set up in a cave. Even though a rope in a cave is not exposed to UV light, it will likely get used on a regular basis and will get covered in mud. Every time the rope is used, it will get stretched with the weight of a caver and then contract when it is unloaded, which will allow mud and dirt particles get driven into the rope fibers. The repeated stretching and contraction of the rope from rappelling and ascending, combined with mud particles in the rope fibers, increases the friction between rope fibers and begins to break them down over time. That would be one of the more common theories as to why a rope left in a cave for 40 years will lose strength over time.