I have both Agricola and Caverna. I think they both feel very different. However Rahdo, I don't think it's very fair for you to say in Jen's Top 10 video (I believe) that Caverna has nothing on Agricola. They are both very different. Agricola is a much tighter game. Caverna IMO is much more open ended, steamlined, and less punishing. So what if Caverna doesn't have the cards like Agricola? I don't need cards to essentially point out with a neon sign what I should do. I like the open ended nature of Caverna where it's like BAM, here's all the options, have fun! I've won many games of Agricola by barely playing any, if no cards at all. And I get asked about it, and I'll say either "well my cards just weren't all that great" or "yes I could have used them but in order to get a good synergy/result out of them, it just wouldn't be all that fun". I guess that's just a personal opinion of mine. Guess what I'm getting at is, I don't think in these somewhat sandbox games, that cards or end game goals should define how you play. I like how in Caverna you can choose what route you want to go, and buy buildings and/or accommodate to fit that strategy. In Agricola, those cards in someway, almost seem essential right from the beginning if you want to win, but that may not be what I want to do. They both fill their own different slots. I still play Agricola and love it to death and will teach it to people first before showing them Caverna. They are just different games, however, my personal favorite is Caverna.

I've played Caverna several times in solo mode, and about ten times with two persons. I must say I do not have the impression that there is too many room tiles. We pretty quickly adapted to the big choice, as one will probably not build more than three of them in a single game. There might even be games, where you do not build any of them, but simply use all the other nice actions. On the other hand I must say that the game usually plays tougher than it looks. It is a complex tactical/strategic game, you will not be able to do all you wanted, and the scoring phase can bring some surprises at the end of the game. After these many plays I still have the feeling there is a lot to discover in this game, and that will make me play it many more times.

It always makes me happy when you and Tom have different opinions.

We have Agricola & Caverna in our collection and I must admit that we liked Agricola over Caverna for the reasons you mentioned. However, we tried playing Caverna with the "Rahdo End Tile Draft" variant, and now Caverna has replaced Agricola for us. For a lighter, quicker game, though, we do enjoy All Creatures Great & Small.

My Caverna is on it's way! I love the way you explain your gameplay with Ghost Stories and i just finished watching your Caverna series just wish i have my copy of Caverna now. Thanks Rahdo!

Caverna is still pretty tense, at least so far. The harvest at the end of (almost) every turn really turns the pressure on, though TBH on the whole I think Agricola is tougher to stay afloat... Caverna is a bit more forgiving.

I like all the tiles available at the start. It gives u a lot of freedom & provides another avenue for player interaction. As for long-term strategy, u can always get 1 or 2 of those scoring tiles early to prevent them from being stolen later. The assurance of their ownership is a tangible advantage.

The variant proposed by Rahdo has been fleshed out! See my explanation here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hbSVo7iFztmqqo0.html or visit the boardgamegeek thread: boardgamegeek.com/thread/1128291/random-selection-goals-variant-variable-setup

Richard, thanks for shooting this. I have never played Agricola. I have seen it and wasn't turned on by it. After watching your Caverna video, I am hooked and want to go out and drop the C-note to acquire this. Thank you sir.

I played this 20+ times now. Caverna is all about adopting and changing long term strategy along the way. I think that is intentional. So it is difference from Agricola. Also, once you decided your long term strategy (your combos), if you are the first player to buy the first room in the combo, it usually prevent the other player (if they know what they are doing) to snatch the subsequent room to mess up your strategy. Because it usually makes the other player less efficient as well (because they do not have the first room). So the other player would mess you up and herself as well and give the rest of players an advantage. Often, it is better for them to pick a different strategy. And this is why I love Caverna so much, because there are always good options for you to pick. ( I have never played 6-7 players, so it may get tighter).

i did put a link in the video itself, but i'll add it to the show notes too :)

You and me sir are very similar in profession and board game obsessions. I can see your mind working and you're very fluid in explaining the mechanics. This game is rated very highly on boardgamegeek and in general.

Having the tiles available at the start of the game reminds me of Puerto Rico where the buildings are all available. If you like Puerto Rico I can see that this element would not be a negative for everyone. Some gamers would like the ability to mess around with variants of a similar strategy everytime they play.

Nice runthrough. I played the game with 3 players and I really loved it. For me it even beats Agricula. I like how you got ALL the options at start and you create a strategy but then somebody buys the tile you needed for your strategy, so you have to adapt. Really challenging and fun.

youtube has been really weird about links lately. well, i always have links to the other videos in the show notes too :)

I like more variability in the set up too. One thing that we have done just for some extra variability is not use all the dwelling tiles. We will pick some of the tiles and leave them out of the game (at random) We have even played where we start with only a few tiles and add tiles in each round (2,3,4) like how eclipse plays. At the same time, I actually like what you don't like in this video. Not having a set strategy from minute one of the game adds a lot of freedom and fluidity that I value greatly. I love being able and encourage to change strategies mid game based on how things are going instead of simply doing what I planned on doing poorly when things start to go not as planned. If that makes any sense, anyway, as always thanks for the videos.

Great video Richard. I've not played Agricola and having picked up a copy of Caverna this week, I found learning the rules a bit difficult. Having watched your videos I've played through a few solo turns of my own and really picked it up.

I really don't find the furnishings complicated or overwhelming at all. It takes like a minute to scan through and get a general idea of what they all do.

Hi Rahdo What U think about Caverna today? Agricola still is the one?

I personally think that the fact that you cannot bank on being able to do exactly what you want for the end game offers the change that makes this game better than Agricola.

GREAT comment about how cards exist in a different game space than tiles, Richard. Your 'first impressions' are a really deep and thoughtful take on the differences between the two games (GRIC vs. CAVE). I know you're known for the incredible enthusiasm in your videos, but dammit the insight you're giving is gold! Kudos. Best video review of the year.

Thanks for the video again! I totally agree with your comment regarding the cards in Agricola in comparison with the building tiles. One of the highlights in Agricola for me is the card draft. However, this IS a different game after all. And the components are fantastic!

I just bought Caverna and have only done a playthrough on my own (haven't played yet with friends), but my first surprise when setting up was that there was only one tile for each room. I would love to have enough tiles for each room for every player, and for there to be a rule that you can only build each room once (apart from the dwellings of course). To me that would take away the pressure of racing against others for particular rooms. But I guess that is part of the strategy/challenge of the game.

Everyone has been talking about how Caverna replaces Agricola. And where is the main aspect of Agricola unique cards and strategies based on them. With draft there is 0 luck involved and you can somewhat choose your direction in s game. I highly recommend draft mod btw. Now i know i'm not the only one on the "Agricola forever(or at least for now)" side. Great videos i can't believe i've never found them before. Keep up great job pls.

Thanks, the link is not showing up in the video on my end, I tried 3 different browsers

Agree completely with your assessment of tiles vs cards well said

I love that they streamlined it and took the millions of cards out. We like Agricola but I think we will love this.

A year later, how do you feel about this relative to Agricola? Did you feel like you were ever able to get over the learning hump or is the slower feed of choices still preferable?

That's why a draft is absolutely mandatory for experienced Agricola players.

If I haven't played or owned any of these two games (Agricola and Caverna), which one would you suggest I get? Thanks for the review!

yeah, i tend not to think of my videos as reviews at all. i'd be happy to to include opinions at all and just let the games speak for themselves :)

Looking at Agric and Caverna. Can you list me a few Caverna rules you would retrofit into Agric.

Completely agree with everything you say, however personally I prefer having a choice between using tiles (Caverna) and using cards (Agricola). Dependant upon our mood, we would choose to play one or the other. If Caverna had cards there wouldn't be much to differentiate it from Agricola tbh. Also sometimes if your dealt a bad hand of cards (happens quite often) your limited to a basic strategy whereas having tiles your not relying upon the luck of the 'God of good hands'. That's why I have both Agricola and Caverna, I like both systems. Good review as always!

Sorry if this has been posted somewhere, Rahdo, but it's been over a year now. How have your opinions on Caverna changed, if at all?

Has anyone tried this just for the solo mode?

Hi Rahdo. I haven't ever played Agricola or Caverna and after watching and listening to a few reviews here and there, I think I'm going to get Caverna. I feel like I actually like the fact that everything is available to everyone, it spices things up a bit. You build toward a strategy and then BAM, your tile is gone. That looks like fun to me. And at least there is no luck of the draw. The difference in rating you gave to both is astonishing (9.95 vs 7.493). Anyway, thank you for all your reviews. Now I want Caverna, Terra Mystica (that you haven't rated on BGG) and Nations !! And so many others... Thanks again !!

Have your thoughts changed after having played this more, or do you still hate that all the buildings are available? (It would probably be pretty unbalanced if it was Agricola style like you suggested as some tiles are way better than others and you might just get an unlucky draw and be screwed right off the start)

Fantastic runthrough. Really insightful first impressions. That Caverna so fundamentally changes the way players must approach the strategy of the game indicates, to me at least, that it was never designed to replace Agricola. Certainly no more than ACBCS was meant to replace Agricola. I really think the more relevant question is whether Caverna is different enough from Agricola to justify a purchase, especially at it's price point.

My girlfriend and I jumped right into Advanced and in our first game we barely bothered with buildings because we just looked at them and had no idea what was good. We've played twice more since and in the 2nd game we dabbled a bit more, and then in the 3rd I went DEEP into buildings and ended up with a whopping 90 points (compared to the ~60ish scores we'd been getting the other games, and my girlfriend's score of 64 in the 3rd). The advanced game is awesome.

Thanks for the breakdown... was great for just 1 play =)

An idea, after you do several plays and some of them with the advanced game you could make and upload another video about your final thoughts about this game. Hope you'll do or sth like that because I love the final thoughts part of your runthroughs and like you said this was more of a "first impressions" video. Greets and keep up the good work! your vids are awesome :D

Is there, maybe a fan-made version of this game where you can use the card system from Agricola while you play this game??

Without playing it yet, and just based on your video, I think I'd prefer all tiles available at the front (But possibly with 2 tiles for 4-5 or 1 for 2-3), but with each game using a different subset of the all - I like the idea that I can try and figure out what my opponants are doing, and potentially take a tile to block them, in the same way I might block them with actions; I'm not keen on having the same things to choose from each time for my major strategy.

Have you played Kemet? and how would you compare your issues with the tiles to the techs in Kemet? I enjoy all of the Techs avaliable in Kemet because then someone can steal your Tech which makes you always changing and adapting your strategy.

Personally, the advantage of having all of tiles available is that you react more to what other players are doing. If you are dealt a starting hand, then you will always be going down a certain path irrespective of everyone. I think that games will play out differently for the same reason games of chess play out differently; you will be reacting to what other players are doing. I think the added interaction here is the big benefit of having everything upfront even if a little overwhelming.

Could you link the youtube channel from the blogger you like?

Am I the only one who when you said "Dammit Jim" noticed you had a red shirt on..... Too geeky?

If you're playing with people who don't really like thinking about long term strategy would it play better?

I agree whit your suggested variant, it should be official. Boardgame design and videogame design are both processed by brains, and brains are best at processing 7+/-2 things at the same time. And its easier to form a strategy if you draft. Thanks for a nice review. It contains the streamlining i was hopping for.

As a possible counter-point (i have not played it, so speculating), wouldn't the open availability of the end game goals allow for more flexibility and the ability to make mid-game adjustments. This would also be a kind of "fix" for the 3 players drafting a baking strategy and stalling each other out while an animal herder runs away with the game situation. Also after a few games I can see players just learning them the way we know the major improvements. I could be very wrong also. Thanks.

Any updates to the Agricola vs Caverna debate thus far?

It's been quite some time since I watched your run through of this. I would like to make a comment regarding your proposed variant that deals out endgame tiles for players to choose: The problem with that idea is that if you choose certain endgame tiles that steer your strategy in a specific direction, and then another player scuppers those plans by taking 1 or 2 tiles on the board you NEEDED to satisfy those endgame bonuses, then you're kinda stuck with a less than optimal result. I imagine that's why Uwe decided to keep the endgame tiles available in case that happens - so that you can make adjustments during the game. In Agricola, all of the strategy in the form of the cards belong to you, and nobody can steal them from you, so it's not an issue. I just think the design doesn't work for you and Jen. And I'd imagine A Feast for Odin, which looks to be a mash-up of Agricola/Fields of Arle/Caverna combined with his well-loved Patchwork may not work for you, either? Hmmm... do you wish Uwe would get back to his tighter, more restrictive designs?

...especially when playing with more than 4 players I imagine it will be a real battle to purchase the tiles you want before everyone else.

It is exactly why i like this game. The options are available for everyone.

The problem with the variant you propose is then you would'nt have any B-Plans. One of the strategies is to avoid your opponents making too good combos.

Any final thoughts on Caverna vs Agricola yet? I'm curious to your long term opinion. :) btw very nice video!

(cont) I think when Le Havre: The Inland Port came out, and everyone recognized that it was less like Le Havre and more like Rosenburg's other games, that should have been a red flag. Maybe I don't know anything because Agricola is the only one of Rosenburg's games I've played, but I don't think he has anything on Feld or any of the other mainstream Euro designers out there. I've seen reviews for his other games, and I think he's still riding that wave of success Agricola gave him.

So after many play throughs do you still prefer agricola? Cool vid btw.

Why do I have to keep watching your videos of games that are no longer in print or you have to pay an arm and leg for on ebay. looks amazing. Guess I will have to get Agricola. Thanks for the video

lol I find the best thing about Caverna to be the access to all the furnishings

boardgamegeek.com/thread/1128291/random-selection-goals-variant Ignore my previous remark. This changes everything. I never knew...

Seems like this is akin to playing Dominion with 20 or so Kingdom cards available at the beginning of the game. I do not know much of anything about Caverna, or even Agricola for that matter, to know if you could just choose a subset of tiles at the beginning of the game (like Dominion) and only have those be available for the game.

Ooh, seeing that the tiles are pre-set makes this game drop for me. I love Agricola's cards for the same reason you do. I would rather handle the tiles Suburbia-esque in that not all the tiles will be available in each game.

I can't wait to get this to the table with my wife...only thing I wish is they didn't call them dwarfs! Not that I have any aversion to fantasy, I just feel the game would sit better if it was a simple early iron age life theme. That aside, your ideas on secret objectives sounds like a great house rule! One thing we love about Agricola is how tense it is, do you feel that Caverna might be too 'easy'? That is to say, have too many ways to generate points and ways to facilitate growth/survival?

Realy like your style of review, dont agree on all the conclusions in all your reviews, but thats how it should be keep the reviews comming, and keep your final thoughts the way they are with strong opinions. keep up the good work... :)

***** I do enjoy your videos and the story telling and thinking out aloud you do with you play with "Jen", I do find it funny. Back on topic, I've had Agricola at the top of my Wishlist on BGG since I saw it played, and seeing this makes me want this over Agricola. I haven't played either of them, or any other game similar to this (yet). But my question to you is, my fiance and I have just recently gotten into "outside the norm board gaming" and playing, (buying) and learning new games. If you were to buy Caverna or Agricola, which would you buy? Bonus question, is it worth down the track to end up with both games in the collection?

Fantastic walkthrough but I disagree. I HATE having cards dealt to me and me having to be somewhat put on rails. The openness of having all of the tiles right in front of you makes this a nice big sandbox. Fantastic game and thanks for the amazing videos as usual.

Cards do have a downside as well: one player can get all the powerful stuff and the other one doesn't. Though I agree, it's also fun to review your cards before the game and build a strategy with them. That's why neither Agricola can replace Caverna, no can the latter replace the former.

hmmm now I do not know what to do :(

Man $90 is steep for a game, well hopefully i can play it online at some point.

Caverna = Agricola + Dwarves aka win! ;) Must have!

Game design is game design. Video and board are just two sides of the same coin. Skills from one are directly applicable to the other. Or maybe I should say turn based video games. Action games are more dis-similar. Good final thoughts. I have to say I agree, my concern about analysis paralysis in this game is huge. Too much out there, and too much that can be pulled out from under you causing you to have to re-analyze mid turn. Still think the game looks fun though.

I think your problems with this game are very much valid. It would be interesting to hear if your opinions change with repeated plays. I enjoy Agricola. It's not one of my favorite games, but I like it. I had no interest whatsoever in getting Caverna initially, and this review proves why: This feels very similar to a video game sequel like Madden, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, etc..where it's just cashing in on ideas that worked before rather than coming up with something new/different (cont)

5 years on, are you still of the same view (assuming you have played the game a few moves times)?

While I understand that creating a strategy is easier with limited choices, I didn't like the secret cards in Agricola. Too much luck of the draw, and that's what I like in Caverna. All information is open and everybody has the same possibilities.

something strange, when I search for "caverna review" on here, your video doesn't show up for me, you might be missing more viewers who might otherwise enjoy your videos!

I dont understand people saying, they Are bot very different, very different are chess And monopoly, Agricola And caverna Are quite same both Worker placement, same Authors, in both you Are farmer And have equipment or rooms which give advantages I mean they Are little bit different not very

Caverna = Agricola by Stefan Feld.

Great review but i hate agricola and i love this game lol

nothing is better than agricola!

My wife & I are Big fan of Caverna, Agricola seems like you are just starving the whole time.

I'm glad I haven't bought Agricola! Looks more family friendly due to less reading (cards). And IMO It's pronounce it like agriculture :-)

I would like to brain storm ways of making games like Agricula or Caverna into legacy games. It would be nice to do this without having to buy any additional components considering both games cost almost $100. If anyone has any homebrew legacy rules for Agricula or Caverna, please post. I've played 2 player Agricula with all the expansions that I am looking for some variation.

Soooooo.... He's saying that caverna is worse because other players might mess up your "high level strategy" by buying a building you want? Shouldn't we as players be a little more flexible in a playthrough? Isn't this the point of worker placement games, that you might not be able to take the items/tiles/spaces that you need and that you have to adapt? I guess I'm late to the conversation, but the critique of the game seems kind of lame. Granted, I don't own either Agricola or caverna, but it seems that he is missing the point of the whole genre, if I'm not mistaken?

Had this thing got rid of it, 20 plays was enough for me. Solo play a joke, 2-3 MEH, 4 players seems like a sweet stop, 5-7 you fall asleep. It just feels same-y. Worst, with new players this thing really flops, as it is a point salad game and since small strategy changes can be made based on 99 percent old play for ever increasing bigger and bigger scores, new players don't stand much of a chance. This is from a reviewer about another game but it sums up this yet again rehash from this phone it in designer, "....epitome of inelegant, kitchen-sink designs that leave me feeling cold after hours of slogging through what feels like a meaningless point salad of mismatched mechanisms.". New Urban buzz phase "to Uwe Rosenberg", definition: plagiarizes himself and somehow still has fans.

skip the first 5 minutes of blabber, ehm skip the whole thing.