I think this too, but also i think they eventually become The Watcher, linking back up with themself until the "bigeneration" managed to dig them back out to continue

That was my first thought too. This was the Curator's origin story

Yes and no. Out of universe this was their way of cutting ties with Classic/New Who that had come before the 60th. While keeping the character around in the BBC/Disney Doctor era. In universe it also allows them to expand into future characters like the Curator and the Valeyard. Both indicated as future incarnations of the Doctor.

I think the retcon they came up with for that works OK which is that the regeneration is still malleable and so multiple appearances are "possible" until they lock in and count as "one" it is also possible other time lords don't have their regenerations limited either and The Doc does as he's a persistent criminal, Having a less limited number conveniently allows some regenerations to be seen as "Mistakes" though.

if The Timeless Child, The Other, and Neverland are all taken as possible truths in diffrent timelines, then we know that Timelords are not a race, they are a sect or a creed, that used genetic manipulation and devices like the looms to gain their regeneration powers. the native people of Gallifrey, The Gallifreyans are the race known as Shobogans or Shabooj'm, over the eons that name has come to mean outsiders or those who live outside of the Timelord Society, it is never shown if the Shobogans can regenerate, safe for those who joined them after fleeing timelord cities, there is some evidence that Susan or sometimes also known as Lady Larn, or Arkytior (the Gallifrey word for Rose) may not have the ability to regenerate as she may not be The Doctor's granddaughter, but rather the granddaughter of The Other, and is one of the last naturally born Shobogans who were cursed with sterility, but that curse was lifted late in the 7th Doctor's life just prior to the 1996 Movie. The War President Rassilon (the president of the war council of Gallifrey) in 'The End of Time' has a prophecy read to him that calls The Doctor and The Master the "The Enmity of Ages" which would suggest that it is well known that The Master and The Doctor have been locked in hatred for so long it couldn't be anybody else. "This is only the furthest edge of the Time War. But at its heart, millions die every second, lost in bloodlust and insanity. With time itself resurrecting them, to find new ways of dying over and over again. A travesty of life. Isn't it better to end it, at last?" - between the flux, the moment, and a notion that The Timeless Child might have no limit to their regenerations limit and that the same genetic technique used to give regeneration to the sect that would become Timelords, was used on The Timeless Child, along with memory whipping them to try and keep them under control, make the believe they are just another timelord with only 12 regenerations unless can either steal more, get them awarded to them via a court trial, or in the case or The Five Doctors and the Master awarded them for doing the bidding of the High Council of Timelords bidding, or brought back outright for the Time War.

With the added factor that in Wild Blue Yonder, the Doctor used superstition as a tool on the edge of the Universe against the Not-Things, which rippled back into the universe, making myth into reality. Kate orders the Toymaker's box to be locked under salt, and then we have the introduction of pure fantasy elements like Goblins, who aren't explained as being from another planet, as prior stories tended to do.

@@Janoha17honestly I think that’s literally it! That’s why it never happened before and why it’s happened now! It’s a myth of the Time Lords AND now it’s real! 2 things at once! And now 15 has to deal with the consequences of this! He REALLY should not have done that thing with the salt!

I think its a mix of that (3 regenerations within 15 hours of each other) and also the Toymaker's presence weakening the separation between myth and reality. The Toymaker's rules for the challenge with the Doctor, and the rules regarding regeneration came into conflict where both had to be true - the regeneration had to happen to satisfy the Toymaker's game, and 14 had to survive because fixed points in time can't be sped up.

He took "best of three" too literally!

In Wild Blue Yonder, the Doctor invoked a superstition at the edge of the Universe against the Not-Things, which allowed myths to become real - the bigeneration is supposedly a myth in timelord culture and it was made to come true through this. This would suggest (and I hope) that this means its a one off and unique experience to 14-15.

EXACTLY

I thought they might go with the "Bobbby Ewing" approach (referencing the prime time soap "Dallas") and have the 13th doctor just be a dream

@@misterflibble6601I always hopped that it turned out when 12 became 13, they somehow traveled into the wrong dimension when the tardis was on on fire and that the doctor was in the wrong place that’s why she didn’t remember this past. And therefore can go back to the reality where Galafry was ok and no timeless child back story.

Except the Flux did indeed happen and the Toymaker knows it because otherwise he wouldn't have taunted the Doctor about it.

No, they didn't, this would be lazy. They're going to actually develop the timeless child story, making it impact The Doctor.

yea I don't think it was intentional either ...at best it was an unintentional outcome spawn from Toymaker just existing in our universe and warping the laws of physics around him

@@amazedsatsuma Yes that's possible, he did have the line about "making a jigsaw out of your history" earlier in the episode. I took it as a reference to the Timeless Child stuff but it could have had an effect on the regeneration. If nothing else it was more on the doctor's plate causing the psychological stress.

But at the same time, that wrongness ends up getting corrected in that alternate timeline in a sense and doesn’t feel wrong anymore. Like the alternate timeline/universe that rose and 10 1/2 now reside as a couple. That episode where they first get there with the first encounter of the cybermen 10 does a really good job explaining how and why it happens at time. And I think big finish had a few stories as well.

I want this rumour to be true so badly! Eight never got enough love.

I think The Master is the timeless child and They were just lying

1. The episode you are referring to is Time of the Doctor. "A town called Christmas" is simply a line from the episode. 2. The Time Lords altered the Timeless Child using the Chameleon Arc, so that she/he became a Time Lord child, similar to how 10 used it to alter himself into a human. That meant he now had the regeneration limit imposed on Time Lords. 3. The limit being imposed and not a biological limit was established in Classic Who so they could have also imposed it upon the Doctor when forcing him to be a Time Lord child.

Honestly the Master has a long history of avoiding death by any means possible. Inhabiting other living creatures, the weird box in the TV movie, the ring and now the gold tooth. Can't keep a good maniacal Timelord down.

Everytime they reference back to that gold tooth...you knew it was only a matter of time it would be dislodged out of Doogie Howser's mouth. There was no way they are ever killing the Master for good.

I think I heard that was a direct reference to that episode and a way for a future story to set up the Master again, I'm fine with that. The Doctor needs the Master as Sherlock needs a Moriarty.

@@CertifiablyIngame There was another refference to an earlier episode with Rose as the Dr's companion as well. Duering the Episode with the Meep, the part where the Dr gives Donna her memory back is very simmilar to his previous incarnation with Rose when they were holidaying on an exotic planet, Rose was sunbathing un the sheilded dome of the resort while the Dr took a trip to see some "waterfalls". an unseen entity got into the "bus" the Dr was travelling on and tried to take control of him by "talking" to him and synchronising what they were saying, or something like that.

@@CertifiablyIngameyou typoed, you accidentally wrote “as Sherlock needs a Moriarty” instead of “as Mr. Data needs a Moriarty”. Understandable mistake, personally I’m frequently calling Mr. Data “Sherlock” by accident, no idea why.

I'd be up for that, always fun to see fantastic creatures in Who. Might even get to see some return of the Greater Vampires!

I believe you are correct

Honestly….this seems like the most reasonable and likely reason! Invoking superstition at the edge of the universe turned myth into reality!

He has the most copies overall! The Meta Crisis, the imprint in Donna's head, 10 himself took 2 regenerations, and now 14 who persists.

@@CertifiablyIngame you can say Tennant's Doctor is a form that found ways to stay after all he really didn't want to go when his time was up😂

It would make sense that a TARDIS would want to avoid entanglements like this (except when plot demands it). Honestly, I'm totally convinced its a set in stone rule even; just something that can occasionally happen, and only when the Timelords don't catch it. But in those instances, logic would suggest he could postpone old age for a long time (as we have seen truly ancient Doctor forms before) but eventually he would be forced to change or supress it.

@@CertifiablyIngamelogic would suggest? That’s the wrong franchise, Ric(k) (I can never remember if you spell your name with a K or not 😂). Merry Christmas, love long and prosper 🖖

honestly that was my thought too when they split :P

I- That... had not... occurred to me. How do I unlearn a thing?

He's got a fightin' hand and is going commando, it's an Meta-Man-Action-Doctor-Crisis! I bet it's to sell more toys...oh snap, it all makes perfect sense now.

I like this idea too as its the only outstanding point that was not covered clearly for me. 15 somehow sharing in the 14th Doctor's chill time (as if he's a future incarnation), yet also being created in the same instant anyway. He gets treated like both in the episode.

I assume he would regenerate into a new form altogether and that bigeneration would not occur again due to the rarity and timeline crossing needed. But "who knows?"

The shows writers are more interested in pushing politics than a cohesive story.

Yeah, I considered if it was a future Doctor overall too, but even 15 seemed shocked to Bigenerate and was unsure of the TARDIS situation until he had an idea, which seems to suggest no prior knowledge of all this.

Unless it's been so long he forgot what happened and due to the affects of regeneration, experienced everything new (or is pretending to make sure history went how he remembered it)​@@CertifiablyIngame

@@CertifiablyIngame Yeah that does pose a bit of a problem too. Might give more weight to an alternate dimension 15, one where he didn't duplicate the TARDIS. Great video in any case mate! Certainly got me thinking.

That would be nice, after all, it might take more than 1 human lifetime to work through 2000+ years of accumulated trauma.

The Timeless Child added nothing to the Doctor's character or the plot. Bigeneration gave the Doctor the chance to move past their trauma and gave them two happy endings. At once. At least that's how I see it

The Timeless Children wasn't really a story. It was an exposition dump. Chibnall didn't know how to wesve that ides into a compelling narrative so he just had a character tell us the lore. The reason I didn't like the Timeless Children ides is that nothing was done with it and near the end of Chibnall's time as showrunner it was literally memory holed.

Sit down. There is a graphic novel where the TARDIS appears on the bridge of the Enterprise called Assimilation Squared.

I'm using it for the video because KZfaq is more likely to pick up "regeneration" than bigeneration (at least I think?)

@@CertifiablyIngame Ah, that makes sense.

Your loss.

@bobtahoma6584 lol it was my loss watching those specials

@@bobtahoma Only a loss if you enjoy being told that "men" would never understand something a "woman+trans" would. It's only a loss if you think that Davros was "just an evil wheelchair user" and not the purest form of evil who was in a life support machine. RTD reduced Davros to his physical appearance, something that for the last decade has been frowned up, but because it's "for the greater good", slackjawed non-fans applaud for "progressiveness". The failure in writing is the true loss. It won't be too many more seasons before it's cancelled once again, shitcanned for another 20 years until society has gotten past the incessant need for virtue signalling at all costs, no matter the casualties.

@@Reinforce_Zweiwhen talking about trans women, “women+trans” is redundant as those are not two separate categories. Then again your entire comment reeks of political extremism and impotent male rage, so maybe I should just pity you for being such a limited being that this is literally the only lens you can perceive reality through.

@@DissociatedWomenIncorporated Sounds like you really didn't watch the mini-series then, as the "woman+trans" characterisation was because both DONNA(Woman) and Rose(Trans) said together that the doctor(male) would never have understood to "give up the power". But hey, you got your virtue signal points for the day by misunderstanding a basic statement, trying to twist it and still somehow failing to address even that strawman effectively.

You didn’t lose anything. I stopped watching after 11.

Definitely check out Capaldi's run. My favourite of the new Era, especially the second companion Bill.

Capaldi was my favourite Doctor from the revival.

Capaldi did a a terrific job with duff stories and scripts. No wonder he has left Dr Who behind him.

I agree, it comes down to how it's used. Personally I hope this was his idea of "soft-canonising" all of the Doctor Who media with a multiverse idea as a nod to the franchise as a whole. It was the 60th anniversary after all.

Technically it is already being used. It is clearly how we have older versions of Classic Doctors in Tales of the TARDIS, even if RTD has not officially stated that yet.

@@golddragongaming1 Well, you could argue that it fits with what McCoy says in The Curse of Fenric TotT, that there are timelines where he regenerates and timelines where he doesn't, but it doesn't fit with what Davison said, that he was a memory of the TARDIS. Honestly, I think those shorts were written before Davies had come up with the whole "Doctorverse" idea.

Or alternatively, “let’s just shit on established lore because why not?”

​@@CorvoFG Love it when people cry about lore. I'm not generally one to gate-keep but it just so obvious that you have no idea about the show and franchise in general. Doctor Who isn't a show that has a strict canon or lore. It's never been about that. It's not a mistake, it's a fundamental feature of the franchise. By and large there isn't all that much that can't be changed or questioned. We've had numerous explanations for the same things, the Doctor's origin: Gallifreyan, looms, half-human, Faction Paradox. Cybermen: Mondas, Telos, Lumic cybermen, The Doctor Falls. Even "Daleks" have originated in different places, Genesis, Blood of the Daleks, Chibnall's security Daleks. By and large these things are either ignored or worked into some sort of explanation. It frees writers up to be more creative. And hey, I agree, sometimes it doesn't work. But it's still one of the things I love about Doctor Who. You can't have it both ways. There's nothing wrong with being a more casual viewer, in fact I think the show should be aimed towards a more general audience. But if you're going to go out of your way to criticise then you should at least make some effort to understand the franchise as a whole. It's not the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's Doctor Who.

​@mrjoe5292 no, no it is a show with strict and understandable and categorizable cannon. And chinball began to take the longest, the girthiest, and somehow the densest shit all over it. And RTD whent along with it.

@@gamerboiiiiiii No, it's not, in fact there are so many examples of why it's not that I don't know why you'd think that. Canon (one n!) doesn't seem to mean what you think it means. Doctor Who has no strict canon. The closest thing to a Who canon would be the TV show, though even the TV show plays it fast and loose sometimes. Good example of this would be the Doctor saying he's half human in the TV movie. The 8th Doctor is recognized as a legitimate doctor. And his only two appearances are the TV movie and the later "Night of the Doctor". Does that mean the Doctor is half human? Well, no, it was largely ignored by successive episodes. Another good example would be Mel in the recent special. She talks about her travels with a character called Glitz. This was referencing a few Big Finish audios. Does that mean that the Big Finish audios are canon? Well, no, writers, by and large, pick and choose what they want to incorporate into the show. Now Doctor Who does have a continuity, which may be why you're confused. But there's no authoritative list of Canon works, or Canon timeline. The TV show tends to be considered the progenitor, so to speak, but it takes stuff from other sources too.

Doctor Who's lore regenerates. Same message, different frame.

This is sort of what I was trying to convey about any alternate regen timelines not materialising and fading away, but now that gate has been opened for the first time narratively. I missed if the Toymaker defined the Biregeneration being splintering all throughout his time (I assume it's the line about being a jigsaw of his past)?

yup

Oh for sure, the TARDIS would look out for the Doctor. (Most of the time...)