The arc where chadi grows after gaining knowledge from a legend.

bring Freestyle Judo to the Olympics and watch Judo become the next big thing even Bjj guys will want to participate it will grow

The point is, with all due respect to Neil Adams, the moves that have been removed were a part of Judo. Leg grabs are not something new, but have always been part of judo, whether practiced as a martial art or part of the first Olympics. As a martial art, we are looking for effective ways to take someone down, and if that means leg grabs, then let’s use them. Why limit the art for the sake of aesthetics. It doesn’t look like Judo? According to who? Was this argument used before they were afraid of being banned along side of wrestling?If the IJF doesn’t want this, there should be venues to compete using leg grabs. I for one sincerely miss them. If a tool works, use it. Don’t limit a carpenter with the amount of tools that he can use. Bjj has learned and moved on with Ashi-waza, why can’t Judo?

Point two - The removal of leg grabs (among other rules) without question decreases Judo's effectiveness as a grappling art. As someone who has experience competing in wrestling, BJJ and Judo this is beyond debate. I started with Judo, by the way, and I know firsthand the overwhelming feeling of talented leg attacks performed by skilled wrestlers when I started wrestling. As Judo's effectiveness as a grappling art decreases, this means that respect for Judo as a grappling art also decreases. Which again may translate to a decrease in participation. Your question about what happens in an open match is a very good question. Because, truth be told, many Judoka of the modern era will be poorly equipped to handle leg attacks when they cross train with other grappling styles which may frequently result in experienced Judo players with rank poorly representing Judo's effectiveness in open matches even in the area of takedowns. This is REALLY bad for Judo.

Point 4 - The IJF even went so far as to ban any Judoka in the IJF rankings list from competing in any international combat sports competition, besides Judo, without permission. Olympic Judoka Travis Stevens applied to the IJF for permission to participate in grappling and was denied. Why are they building walls instead of bridges? This shrinks Judo, not grows it. In short, Judo is alienating much of the grappling world by their ever increasing rules, and lack of appreciation for effective techniques from other disciplines, and this combined with a decrease in effectiveness via new rules. While they might get more pretty throws for the short term, it is a serious question if participation will wane as more and more people choose other styles over Judo that they see as more effective. Participation in Judo by new people matters for its popularity over the long run.

Neil never addressed the fact that future judokas and judo itself will lose the heritage of numerous move sets. Schools are teaching for competition not for judo itself. That is how tradition dies slowly, piece by piece.

I thing that the prohibition of the leg gripping is the second big judo amputation in history. First was the ne-waza limitations , the second is this. Soon we'll be dancing in dresses to look more beautiful...better for the tv scenes.

Leg grabbing was a very real element in old judo. It made judo more complete and thus harder. Yet if you were good at leg grabbing it opened a world of opportunities to transition into more sussccessful throws during randori.

[An idea discussion] This might be random but what Neil said at 1:35 about judokas posture becoming like that of freestyle wrestlers reminds me of what Chael sonnen spoke about freestyle vs greco roman in mma, in which the more upright posture of greco roman translates better into mma as opposed to the more bend down posture of a freestyle wrestler. To add leg attacks back into judo is tricky, because again as Neil mentioned people would go back to the bend over posture that wrestlers tend to have, and impedes ashi waza. In some ways I think the Mongolians have it figured out in bohk, they have amazing posture, leg grabs, throws, and sweeps. This I believe is due to their rule of your knee is not allow to touch the ground or you'll lose, which brings me to what i'm proposing: you can grab the leg if your knee hasn't touch the floor, or until you get back into the upright posture. This way you don't impede people going for drop throws, but also negate the low double that causes wrestlers to have that bend over posture that they have.

i respect Neil Adams as a judoka and legend for our art, but I disagree with his philosophy on the state of judo. We need to progress and allow leg grabs and take a more self defense application

Point one - (I really like your videos Chadi) I started Judo in the 1990s. It was a different sport back then. Progressively, the rules of what can be done have narrowed more and more until we are left with what we have today. I understand that the new rules do result in more classical style Judo throws but this comes at a cost. There is more to the popularity of Judo than just how it looks to the crowd and the IOC. Participation matters. The rules of Judo have become suffocatingly difficult, complex and constantly changing. I believe the ruleset as it stands now will decrease the number of people that decide to train Judo from both wrestling and BJJ backgrounds. It may also play a role in which grappling art people choose of the three that have no grappling background. This may mean less Judokas, which means less popularity for the sport.

Super interesting conversation. It really makes me appreciate the rationale and the consequences of leg grabs to judo. Thanks for airing this conversation. BTW I started my judo in the 70s when leg grabs were legal, but I don't recall them as being the predominate throwing technique. I wish they would give newaza more time to develop..

I get what Neil is saying here and I don't disagree, Olympics wise; but the IJF or another federal should have a competitive outlet for full kokudan Judo (folkstyle or whatever they are calling it now.)

Kano jigoro sensei created judo and have leg grabs techniques, I don't know why they need to ban it 😑

I think it would be a great re-addition. It also wouldn’t change the meta too much since collar grips really complicate the ability for someone to shoot in on a leg. I’m really torn on it as someone who’s done A LOT of wrestling and Judo

If the problem is optics why not just ban very common moves seen in wrestling like the double or single? I think it's overkill to take out techniques like the firemen's carry that were always in the curriculum.

I'm not a wrestler and the leg grabs were never my favorite techniques to perform, but I think it's more effective as a martial art and self defense if you include the leg grabs, which has been part of judo since the early days. If a wrestler attacked me, I think I would have a better chance compared to someone who learns (competitive) judo now. That's because I've had to defend against leg grabs. I also think the bent-over style would not be favored with the new scoring system.

I stopped to do Judo in 2010 and returned this year. It was very sad to me to realize that all of my main techniques are not allowed anymore. It is very sad aswell to fight people who are giving you major opening opportunities for a great leg grab and you can't do that.

EASY SOLUTION in 3 steps: 1. Ban Turtle position (fatal in self defense scenario/ lame) - > Judoka need to try to stand up 2. The referee calls out when the fighters are in newaza. From here on, grabbing leg is allowed. Its allowed until the ref calls Mate, or until both fighters are standing and have NO grip on each other. So it is allowed during the 'getting back up' - process 3. Leg grabs during that time, that result in a high amplitude, clean throw onto the back, get scored with koka or yuko. So judo will still be upright, but the newaza will be much more realistic and dynamic, as turtling up is no option. This opens up submissions and low-scoring, high amplitude leg grabbing techniques

Saying other styles dont do well coming to Judo is just semantics. Also leg grabbing isn't just a "wrestling" its a combat technique. Judo is a combat art, limiting techniques for the sake of aesthetics only limits the development. Lastly, what's with Neil's obsession with wrestlers and jacket?! Just because its harder to train with the jacket doesn't mean its any better.

This olympics myopia is costing judo a lot in terms of cultural relevance and potential judoka's. Just because this gentleman learned how to defend in the 80's doesn't mean kids these days do. Heck, the parents of the kids learning judo now weren't even around then. Bjj is what Judo used to be. Judo will continue to wane if real change isn't implemented.

So I started Judo 2 months ago and have fallen in love with it. I came from Muay Thai and wanted to learn grappling. Finding out that I couldn't work on takedown defense was very concerning at first (I remember seeing morote gari in videos and thinking Judo was going to help me defend against stuff like that). However, as a new person, the sheer volume of even non-leg grabbing techniques is a lot to take in. It feels like even in modern "neutered" Judo, you can become very good at upper body stand-up grappling/clinchwork, which is definitely useful. Practicing osoto garis and ippon seoi nages over and over again feels like working on your jab cross over and over again. A striker with perfect jabs and crosses can definitely win fights when paired with defense and movement.

The leg grabs have to come back. The fewer restrictions a martial art has the better. When someone is looking for a martial art, they usually look for something effective either for self-defense or for the ring. So you get to grapplin and you see BJJ and Wrestling reigning in the UFC and you look at Judo and you see all these kinds of limitations: little ne-waza, no leg grips, etc. The first impression you get is that it is a less efficient martial art. That would be something more to complement a ground game martial art like BJJ. A second option. What you do when you don't have BJJ or wrestling near by. And that's not good for judo.

If only leg-grabs would be brought back. Te Guruma is such a great move

NEIL IS WRONG pure and simple. 99,9% of us will never get to the olympics or even win national titles.what Niel is saying is that Judo is now an elitist sport for those that want Olympic glory so these rule benefit them only, nobody else. His view is fundamentally against the very reason Kano sensei created it. Kano said"For one thing, Judo in reality is not a mere sport or game. I regard it as a principle of life, art and science. In fact, it is a means for personal cultural attainment" he also said "Judo should be free as art and science from any external influences, political, national, racial, and financial or any other organized interest. And all things connected with it should be directed to its ultimate object, the benefit of Humanity" Neil, Mariuz and the Japanese have it backwards. lastly "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" bring back everything! to hell with the olympics

Take one guess why so many proponents of Judo are looking for the "old styles" . Leg grabs , palm strikes and locking reverses are here to stay . All the best .

Thanks chadi for bringing a judo legend, judo family and pro wrestling brother on KZfaq.

Additionally......the ridiculousness of the new rules in grip fighting also plays solely into the arms of the sporting aspect of Judo......when it comes to self defense...theres no rules that govern how long i should grip onto my attacker who is trying to hurt me......because in self defense we gotta make the best out of whatever happens

The judokas nowadays need to train bjj or wrestling to continuing practice the old and efficient Judo thought to them in the past. This including me...I like ne-waza a lot, and i'm looking on bjj the good ground game of the past.

So he basically says, Judo needs to be identified as non-wrestling 'cause... the Olympics! I don't buy it. Even if you are not bringing back Morote Gari, there are ways to handle sport Judo with non-grey rules, like allowing one hand below the belt. Jigaro Kano himself admitted that he got Kata Guruma from wrestling. It was there from the start of Judo, survived all the cautious rule changes to avoid any risk of injury, but now it's banned because he and the others on IJF have a stick up their arse about wrestling. With all due respect to Neil Adams. He's wrong.

Im a 2nd Dan, now retired, this debate is welcome. Kata still - of course - includes the purity of kata guruma as a classic technique and morote gari was always welcome as a quickfire, sudden death, Te Waza at club level. Bring back SELECTED leg grabs

My judo teacher still teaches the single and double He use to wrestle as well So we learn judo but some wrestling teachings as well I always ask him about leg locks from the original judo I think judo should allow leg take downs and leg locks and unlimited newza like kosen judo Old school judo like in the 1920s

Te guruma and kata guruma, bring those back. Neil Adams thinks he's Kano.

Bring leg throws back,if you good,just defend it and counter it,this is why I had joined judo,so I could learn to do it properly,single legs throws especially

I absolutely love judo. But from double legs to single leg to ankle picks it's just limiting the judoka to much. I mix my judo with sambo Greco and freestyle wrestling

In my opinion we should allow te guruma and leg grabbing done without being allowed to shot going down to the knees..You need to remain standing on your feet and take a te guruma or high single or judo style morote gari

Neil and his team-mate Vass Morrison were on the same judo instructors' course as myself (at the ILEA College of P.E.), back in the '70s. Both impressed me with their teaching methods.

I love how judo embraces difficulty n see it’s beauty. Coming from a grappling background. At the academy I train most of the black belts(bjj) are also black belt judokas. N on Saturdays after open mat is over we train under judo rules

I think there's room for both IJF Judo and Freestyle Judo to exist, but for some reason people just aren't doing both in a lot of places. I see BJJ schools training for both IBJJF rules AND submission only, both Gi and No Gi. Most Judo Dojos just focus on the gi, and just focus on whatever the most up to date rules are. The sport could grow so much more if Judoka were practicing for multiple rulesets.

Buen video!!! Creo que debería regresar los agarrones de piernas. Éxitos!!!!!

As a wrestler I adapted to grips and cloth really quickly.

Glad you discussed this with Mr. Adams. Up to this point I was thinking IJF might let single leg grabs back in but not double leg. From this I now agree that it isn't necessary. Judo is still dynamic and interesting to watch. Morote Gari players were winning often up until the rule change, I believe.

The problem here is that Mr. Adams is seeing judo as a sport. Which is a different thing from a martial art. He has a point when saying "not all of us want to do MMA", which I neither want to do by the way, but the thing here is not being able to fight wrestlers. The thing here is using the whole curriculum of judo, where leg grabs were allowed. Let's make judo a martial art again. As Zen master Taisen Deshimaru said, taking aikido/judo/karate as a sport is like a kid playing with a toy car, whereas taking them as martial arts is like full grown-up adults driving real cars.

It's absolutely ridiculous that they banned leg grab techniques from Judo, why not just create a freestyle and Greco-Roman division? Don't take away only add!!

My coach refers to leg grabbers as a style. Some players are sweepers, some are hip and shoulder throwers, some go for leg grabs, some prefer ground work. The point was to have a versatile game that could play against all these players well. My coach used sode Tsurikomi goshi against people he knew liked leg grabs. Now we basically only learn them for rankings and dont really train them.

Proposed rule: only one hand below the belt. This would allow for big throws like Kata Guruma/ Te Guruma, while also keeping kuzushi and taking out the mindless leg grabbing.

Judo become a jacket Greco-Roman style now

I am not a grappler, I am object. I was really pissed about the hansoku-make penalty. I see so many changes in Judo rules, but I don't see them getting necessarily better.

Very good discussion. great video. I think freestyle judo would be awesome to see at olympic level with old school judo rules

Man this is kinda along the lines of something I’ve thought about, I would love to see Jordan Burroughs vs Shohei Ono in like BJJ rules Gi and no Gi and see what happens. Let them both prepare a few weeks of course I think it would be super interesting both legends in their sports around the same weights would be super cool

I learned a ton of moves that are common in judo during the 80s and 90s training for wrestling, especially freestyle and Greco, american folk style has too many limitations to have as much crossover.

the point is they went too far, banning touching the leg at all. I agree with incentivizing upright posture but te guruma is an awesome, spectacular technique

Judo is wrestling with a jacket

13:50 Chadi that was one of the best statements for all martial artists to hear. Every art has its pros and cons. 🔥🔥🔥 That should be a tweet 🔥

If it's for aesthetic reasons, I think they could change the scoring and winning system to allow for leg grabs, but make them less attractive as a strategy, giving less "points" or winning conditions than compared to attacks that aim above the waistline.

We need different rules for professionals and lower ranks. We need to decide if judo is a sport or for self defense. I believe the IJF needs to let the younger generation take over.

Yes please🙏🏼

Making more rules is never good way. I prefer old rules

Point 3 - BJJ is growing much faster than Judo. There are many reasons for this but one of them is that BJJ welcomes any technique that works within their ruleset and welcomes participants of other grappling arts with open arms. The pretentious attitude of "that's not good Judo" in reference to effective unorthodox techniques from other styles does not exist in BJJ.

Finally we get to see your face!

This is so strange for me. I love leg grabs, but this whole subject is crazy. Everybody saying bring back the leg grabs, where were you when I needed you??? Lol... everybody hated me so much back in the day! Everybody used to tell me that my judo was not true judo all the time. This sounds a bit like nostalgia or even not being there at that time.

This guy's living in the past. We need judo to grow not die out. No leg grabs is a joke. It's holding judo back.

That was a good discussion, thank you for sharing 😊.

Neil, Chadi I disagree with Neil. I would have thought the answer is simple. Allow leg grabs but allocate them no score, then these techniques if used will be used as a transition to Ne Waza. This will do a number of key things. 1. It Encourages Judoka to further improve their Ne Waza game. 2. Teaches new generation Judoka defence against leg attacks. 3. Encourage Ju Jitsu and Sambo players to take up and compete in Judo. 4. Discourage wrestling style Judoka from soley relying on leg attacks as these techniques do not score. 5. Allow all judo techniques to be taught. Isn't this simple enough ?

Maybe do it like wrestling: Freestyle and Greco-Roman. Have a Judo event called freestyle that allows leg grabs and a bit more time for newaza, if they really want to, they can even limit leg grabs to 2 seconds or less so it still keeps the explosive nature, and keep the current Judo events and call it modified Judo. That way, you encourage a ton of BJJ, wrestlers and other grapplers to enter, and you also increase the amount of LE and military that would practice it as well. Will all of those people compete in the Olympics? No, but people tend to enroll their kids and recommend martial arts that they're familiar with, they tend to watch sports and events that they are familiar with as well, increasing the pool of fans and practitioners can only help. I'd hate for Judo to eventually end up like TKD, which went from a limited but effective martial arts, to something despised by everyone who still remembers what the old TKD competitions used to look like.

I must admit I was angry as a Judoka cos I thought the likes of Teguruma and Kataguruma were under attack but that's because I used them a lot, it was confusing to start with but people dont like change anyway, I get it now but fortunately at the time at club level we were still using them, I'm still not sure on the teguruma as a counter still but Ive not been on the tatami for a while, in fact there was a lot of confusion for both refs and players. Nicki Adams (lol) was ok cos he was an uchimata and taitoshi supremo, I was more a grappler so obviously it did affect, but the change did make your knowledge and nuance of throws better, I do think though, that people are getting ippons were I wouldn't have given more than a Yuko, I still get angry at that. I think if the referring was more precise to the original rulings, the throws for scoring ippon would be better overall, (flat on back with impetus),. Which is still achieved by the top players but overall people are getting ippons for a lot less than before imo. As usual, fantastic piece Chadi. Awesome.

I disagree with Neil on him saying that the wrestling techniques aren't judo techniques. They most certainly are judo techniques. Everything else Neil is saying, I agree with. And Neil is a GREAT ambassador of the sport.

I don't practise Judo, I am a Karate guy. And whenever there is a grappling technique in Karate (yes, Karate is standup grappling) we always grab the opponent as if we didn't wear a Karate Gi. No-Gi-techniques only. And that is what I would introduce. Banning grabbing the gi, but bring back leg grabs and also allow stand up joint locks and introduce jointlock-induced throws.

I think a ton of wrestlers will start to dominate changing the entirity of the sport like the ban did in the first place. Virtually all modern day blackbelt can't even perform an efficient double leg or single entry

I think it moves judo further away from what jigoro kano intended. I understand what Neil is saying.. but how far do you go from the roots of judo..

"bring leg grab back"

Personally, I don’t care what gets banned in contest so much. I’m in judo for all of judo. Shiai is only a part of it. My Philosophy and my clubs Philosophy is learn and practice all of judo. So, in my opinion, the problem isn’t so much that techniques are banned for safety or to be more spectator friendly, the problem is that many dojo’s focus too much on only shiai.

One of the big differences between wrestling and judo is the jacket. Would it be possible to enforce grabs below the belt if they gain a grip on the material of the pants rather than encircling the leg as a whole? It seems to me that it would be impossible to do this by shooting in on the legs. It would have to be established in the "clinch." I don't know much about judo, so please excuse my ignorance!

judo is superior when it comes to managing distance and space. Neil is 100% there.

What about just allowing leg grabs if the match goes to golden score

I mean people can say what they want but leg grab techniques where in the original repertoire of judo so taking them out makes no sense it's not even complete judo if you take them out

Competition rules should not be holding back what the average judoka learns. In a practical sense who cares what the extraordinary few at the olympics do, the average person is more important. I would rather have a fuller understanding of judo than only focusing on stuff the ioc wants us to. I'm glad the dojo I go to still covers these techniques at least a little. The purpose of Judo is not and has never been to put on a show, it is about self improvement and physical education.

Goods

Judo can't cross pollinate anymore. Judo has lost its martial spirit. It's pure spectator sport. It's not even fit to teach police in it's current form. Judo has self neutered for combat.

honestly the reason of the ban beeing the posture, thats a reasonable one, cuz judo was inveted as a "martial art" not "sport" and for "fighting" not "sparring" and like freestyle wrestlers who have bent posture all the time, they want do great in a real fight cuz having a bent posture leaves u vulnerable to various chokes and atemi as Kano said in his book but banning wasn't the right decision to make

Finally Chad's face revealed.

2023: IJF bans tachi-waza 2024: IJF bans Judo

why not just do 2 style one with leg grabs and one without...like with freestyle and greco?

I come from a more martial point of view. I'm personally of the opinion that the Olympics is where combat sports go to die. However, if the IOC wants a rule change so that Judo looks different from wrestling, then make an Olympic rule set and a separate general rule set. Otherwise, you run the risk of losing the art's identity and legacy in the name of trying preserve it.

Judo: “maximum efficiency, minimum effort.” Also judo: “let’s ban leg grabs because throws should be hard and complicated”

He gets his salary from the IJF , do you honestly think he would speak on behalf of leg grabbing

A question I miss is: "Why didn't Judo referees applied the correct penalty for bad posture when leg grabbing were allowed?"

Max was here

To fellow Judoka, learn how to sprawl like a Gold Medalist. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pb9lhq58qr_IqXU.html

Yeah Neil Adams and other top judoka adapted to wrestling *because they were exposed to it and got used to it*. Modern judoka don’t have that opportunity. If wrestlers and bjj guys aren’t dominating in judo then surely you don’t need to ban their techniques? You can just adapt, right? So why not just continue adapting? To me it’s like this: boxers don’t learn to defend against kicks. This doesn’t mean every kick-boxer will beat every boxer. But it does mean the boxer is at a disadvantage. I feel like the point about how they’re not interested in competing in MMA or fighting on the street so that means it’s not a big deal if they’re less well prepared for those things is all well and good, but a lot of people do train for self-defence and judo has a lot to offer there. It would have even more to offer if certain techniques were allowed again.

I can't see why we can't compromise and allow one leg grab per fighter per match as a starter.

They should and also submissions judo is extremely watered down

I love watching judo, I appreciate it as a martial art quite a lot. But I was born with exceptionally weak and easily/quickly fatigued hands, and it has gotten much worse since I turned 20 to the point where tying my shoes is unpleasant, so it is not for me unfortunately.

Leg grabs are very effective for self defense and mma

Well… I’m sure one of the people complaining. I wasn’t competing in multiple sports. I saw Judo mainly as a martial art and I saw this as watering down the totality of the art. It makes no sense to have a grappling art that ignores half the body. It is killing recruiting and it’s hard justify why, from a self defence perspective one should do judo instead of BJJ when in judo you’re not going to learn leg locks, wrist locks and now leg attacks. Only a tiny minority of judoka will ever compete at the Olympics. For the rest of us there needs to be other reasons to train and that goes back to utility in a broader context.

Lol, leg grabs are "easy" because most judokas are bad at defending against them now.

So basically the IOC killed Judo for the purpose of "looking good". Basically that's the point to go back to the roots and bring back all the stuff that was forbidden. I don't want to train a martial art that lost it's roots to stay in the olympics. New goal: becoming good enough to start a new school without any boundings and learn all the stuff that we will loose in order to be pleasent enough to people that don't care about Judo but please sponsors. 🤷

The leg grabbing rule suddenly made judo good to watch again

Let's be honest now. The highest level wrestler will take down the highest level judoka FACT.

hey so chadi i was thinking again as i do and look mma is good what i told that i want to be boxer kickboxer,mma fighter and martial artist but im think of just being just three things boxer,kickboxer and martial artist learning sanda,muay thai,savate,dutch kickboxing,american kickboxing combat sambo boxing