CORRECTIONS - Forgot to talk about the Helbrute - it's 130pts now (from 140) - so looking nicely cheaper for that aura of Dark Pact buffs. - Maulerfiend dropped to 140, not 145 - Daemon Prince on foot grants COVER, not STEALTH to infantry. Sorry for the errors here, let me know your thoughts on the poitns changes!

Heretic Asartes Demon Prince on foot grants cover not stealth. The Chaos Demon is the one who grants stealth

With the points drop I can now add another squad of Chosen. Saucy

It is time for our second black crusade of 10th lads 😂😂

Everything I'd like to see in a CSM Army got points drops. That's awesome. Bikers, havoc, Raptors... can make some really interesting lists now

160 points for a brick of 10 Legionaries is a really, really tempting pricetag. They were already a workhorse unit at 5 for 90. You can put 60 Legionaries on the board for 960 points. Black Tide seems like the name of the game, provided you have the bodies to run it. With more than half the army open to selection, you could pick up Abaddon, Rhinos, a couple elite squads, dedicated shooting, or any number of other options. 5 Legio+5Chosen w/ Lord in a Rhino has always been one of the best missiles we can throw out for the entire edition, and I don't see that changing with the update.

My Iron Warriors will Reign supreme once more!!! #ironwithinironwithout

Just getting into 40K for the first time by assembling and painting my Word Bearers. Good to know that they should be pretty good for awhile.

I just realised that a lot of the buffed units are in the battleforce boxes or in the combat patrol so many this is a cheeky sales tactic form games workshop🤔

Whilst it's probably never going to be super-competitive, the combo of those newly-discounted Terminators and Helbrutes with Abaddon is borderline insane. So long as they stay close enough to the dread, that unit gets full re-rolls to hit, plus both Sustained and Lethal hits on 5+ when it does a Pact with either melee or shooting, and due to Abaddon's CP generation it's a unit that wants to Pact every turn anyway. All those Devastating Wounds from the combis will wipe out almost any infantry unit, especially since any Lethal Hits that 'break' anti are paired with a Sustained Hit that lets you fish for it anyway. You've got access to every strat, so you can use Nurgle to reduce incoming fire and Tzeentch to recover from damage. A savvy opponent, of course, will kill the Helbrute as fast as possible because the consequences of not doing that are pretty devastating.

Me: Trying to figure out if my list's issues is just skill or if I just can't get enough of what I need on the table GW: Yeah you should probably have 100-200 points extra to work with, our b.

Cant wait to be nerfed back to the low 40s in July

At this point, I'm pretty sure the Defiler will never get the love it deserves. Which is a shame. I've got two of them and they're just not worth fielding.

Man you produce a lot of content that's just generally so easy to listen to and the info is pretty great, anything "incorrect" is usually sorted out in the comments. You are pretty much one of my favorite dudes to listen to WH wise!

Helbrute also dropped 10pts to 130. Looking tempting for the sustained hits and lethal aura. 250 pts if you keep it close to Havocs 4, 5+ sustained and lethal lascannon shots (or any heavy weapon) +1 with twin linked. Might not be competitive but sounds fun

I've always seen cool combo to bring techmarine with vindicator :D Protected by standard legionaries!

I still want new raptor minis I really dislike that every jump unit needs to be on a rock or piece of metal

Been using a chaos vindicator since day 1 of 10th, once the demolisher cannon killed a full health war dog in one go

Vindicator I felt like was a slept on unit at 190. At 175 it's a must-take imo. I run one marked Nurgle and it's served me extremely well. The potential to spike the number of shots and get something like 12-13 hits on an enemy unit is hilarious. Last week I had one one-shot the Monolith. The D6 damage is swingy but the sheer volume of fire it puts out helps counteract that. EDIT: Also given its sheer volume of fire it does some killer work when Dark Pacting in Overwatch. Averaging 2-3 hits total with Overwatch is nothing to sneeze at.

Hell yeah. Let the galaxy burn!

Possessed as undivided or Slaanesh seems like a tough call. More devestating wounds rerolls vs 5+ sustained hits and run+charge strategem, I think for a unit of 10 i'd prefer Slaanesh but 5 undivided in a land raider wouldn't be such a bad shout if the land raider didn't benefit so much from being nurgle

btw some the stuff that can be taken in other faction also got these reductions... mauler was already amazing in world eaters... and with other points cuts there... dont too surprised seeing me run triple maulerfiend ;)

TERMINATORS GETTING BETTER IM OVER THE MOON

I'm building up a chaos army for the release of their codex, so I'm excited to see if these point changes stick or are just for now until the codex changes them.

You got a thumbs up just for the intro! 😂

Good work 👍

The voices in my head tempting me into taking 3 hellbrutes

I did a small 1000 point game the day before the update, and literally my exact list all got point drops 😂

Bikers can have a leader: Chaos Lord on Juggernaut. (Just not at competitive tournament games.) 👍

a bit sad to see that there isnt a "Night Lords" themed detachment from the teasers, with tons of debuffs to enemy Ld and stuff. wouldve especially loved to see an enhancement giving them stealth or somt, cause "in midnight clad". mostly fine though, im still a big fan already of the Slaves to Darkness one. Ave Dominus Nox!

Legiinaire and Helbrute changes are pretty welcome. It's no Decimator, but it's something.

And the defiler is still counted as if it had Indirect. now if it had indirect I would be kind of fine at the value.

A lot of the things I play went down, nice!

I was already bringing 5 units of 5-men legionnaires to the next tournament, now my list suddenly got 70 points lighter. Vindicators were good at 190, at 175 they are freaking amazing. There's finally something that definitely outshines forge fiends!

I think the vindicator will see a lot of play, but kind of weird they did this now.

*WE'RE BACK AND BETTER THAN EVER!*

A Slaanesh Maulerfiend is basically a slightly different Karnivore, at the same price point, and a similar strike range. Slightly higher DPS, durability and move on the Maulerfiend but you are spending that CP for advance and charge.

AVE DOMINUS NOX!

I was very down on the new CSM combat patrol box, these points changes benefit almost the entire box. Still a debatable purchase when you already have enough Cultists and Marines, and these updates benefit the old box even more, but a buff is a buff.

I'm not gonna lie, the more I look at and think about these CSM battleforce boxes, the more pleased my already existing Chaos armies get. CSM has two fairly good boxes, Dread Talons matches up with the Kill Team: Nightmare, Night Lords fans eat good this year. Maybe next year we will see a Hardback printing of the Night Lords Omnibus! Following that, it's an intro box, something that would start someone's army perfectly and pair well with the new combat patrol. World Eaters would likely be a similar box to their Christmas Box mixed with elements of the old Battleforce. Lord Invocatus stays getting the ability to lead the new thing, they add in two or three sets of Eightbound, Juggernaut Cavalry as the new element, and toss in some Jakhals. You gain your new army units (Jugg Cavalry + Invocatus Leader), you give them some strong units (Eightbound, in an army of Anti-Infantry, you are ANTI-Infantry/Exhalted Eightbound, aka: "Oh shit, the Guard player is running tanks today!"), and toss in some bodies to fill it out. About 1000pts worth of models, and a great investment for most WE players in either case as Invocatus can be ran as a regular Chaos Lord on Juggernaut.

CSM specifically or Chaos in general?

Thought on points changes? Um I am guessing here cawz ima noob …but this means more units are able to be placed on the table , yes? Therefore better versatility in the strategic way to play , yes? I am such a noob still overwhelmed coming in as a Black Templar Combat Patrol WIP/ the 40K Universe is vast and I am happy there are peeps like u and my friend to guide me through . I have grabbed many books and the last codex for the Chaos Space Marines was wicked cool I grabbed it thinking that there was not going to be an update …….buuuuuuut ….. Here comes the 10th edition , Lmfao . I love it all the art work and the miniatures from other peeps the skill sets are amazingly inspiring! How soon will it be released? Be well Be safe

Am I the only one who loves Helbrutes! I auto include them with my oblits (tzeentch), Probably have one next to 2 vindicators now too!

Guys, think of the pattern. We CSM usually get good stuff only for very short time frames. If the pattern holds the dex will keep us in the lower 40s. We can only hope they don't adhere to the pattern!

Vindicators with nurgle are terrifying already now they’re even cheaper :S

very nice

I know Chosen were considered competitive (and probably still are due to their raw profile), but I honestly can't get over just how shite their box is and their weapon options, where like 2 out of 5 models can be equipped with this, or that, one powerfist per five etc, etc. You can't equip the unit how you'd really like too (honestly I think this is a bit of a problem with the Terminator kit too, but not as bad). I still can't work out whether 'Accursed Weapon' profiles are something I like or if I would just like a Power Maul or Sword. I will perhaps not know the answer to this until/if they redo the Terminator box.

As someone who likes hoard CSM I'm happy I can field even more units.

First time 40k player here. Just bought a chaos patrol+terminators and chosen last week. Seems my timing was good. Except now i am further from a 1000 points

Im pretty happy with a lot of these changes. Seems like GW mostly listened to player feedback. Gonna need some weeks to see if this actually makes any difference in the meta.

Was already running two vindicators, now they get helbrute support. Oof

I am about to add 20 traitor guard now haha

Auspex i watched your points video 10 hours ago and now your on your 3rd video for Today get some sleep man

Chaos Returns

Wow, not I cant wait for the release of the veterans of the long war box to reinforce my chaos marines

I was already running 30 possessed. Now i can aford another unit of cultists

All of the units bar the lords in the upcoming battle boxes got a reduction? Hmmm what a coincidence... lol

No example list?

Oops, all horde armies!

I am glad to see this. I think everyone agreed that the prior nerfs went too far. This game needs a great nemesis faction. And the range is so well done, it's a damn shame when it just doesn't perform.

My ass bringing 6x5 legionnaires in every list. I was already bringing 15 back in the meta days of chaos…

I feel like every single time the rules change this last year people go crazy saying chaos space marines are strong

Seeing how well the leigonares look makes me feel like going traitor.... my tac squads could use a buff....

Man if ever there was a drawing I need to win its this one lol

I may be wrong but are legionares now cheaper than guardsman? Thats heavy.

Could use rhinos… RHINOS? Metal BOXES?!

All these points drops - feels like Gw is pulling a WHF - making all armies impossibly expensive

I thought the mauler fiend could go through terrain due to the “siege crawler” rule. Did it lose that?

Possessed are really good right now. But once the codex drops, I could see them getting massively nerfed

So…. Newer models I don’t have… are good. Guess I need to buy them

I comment here to support this work. Any further comment would be a distraction to the work. That is why I do not comment further. The work is good, no further comment is needed.

Still not quite sure where he gets the previous 44% win-rate from, because what I've seen from CSM from people going through the numbers it's been more around 38-39% for a long while, dropping by quite a lot if you remove the top and bottom 10% of players. That being said, these point-cost changes do feel pretty good and balanced in perparation for a new Codex. not quite sure what every army that can have Vindicators taking them in their lists will do to the meta, but it's going to be interesting for sure.

Great... I'm playing against csm tonight!

Chaaaaaos!!!

Possessed are T6, not T5.

Chaos Possessed with S5 and AP-1 are just bad. I’ve been running them countless times in 10 man bricks with MoP (6+ fnp better than nothing, plus mobility) but they rely only on MW output which sometimes isn’t great.

Well it got cheaper to run that's for sure I'm glad it did

As a longtime Black Legion player I'm really pleasantly surprised by this but I just *know* almost all of it's going to be made irrelevant when our summer codex drops. Kinda like the end of 9th 😔

Heldrake spam when??

My thoughts on points changes: I am happy for CSM players (because I am one of those as well) but really annoyed for Chaos Daemon players (which is my main love). That got no changes. Once again, it seems like GW has fallen for the trap and has made the points for Daemon units basically be because of the opportunities that they afford in ally armies. The faction continues to languish, serving as a gatekeeper more than anything else because pushing 4++ monsters across the board is sorta hard to stop for most people, but very rarely actually wins any events. The faction has a couple of good units that see's a lot of play (Bloodthirsters, RendMasters, Be'lakor etc) and some units that never see play - most of them my beloved Slaanesh (oh how the mighty Contorted Epitome has fallen). People will think the faction is broken because of things like a 4+++ FNP Great Unclean One (which admittedly is kinda BS) but obviously don't see much past the fact that a great many datasheets you just don't see. I would love to see the charts that GW allegedly uses to work out win rates; because while a lot of people do play Daemons, I can't remember an actual event in which they won (maybe that mad lad who run like three bloodcrusher stars and skullmasters?). I'm not sure how relevant an army really is even if it falls within that 45-55% win rate 'goldilocks' zone if only 25% of their datasheets are actually used.

I always wonder how marine squad with WS BS 3+ and armor and various heavy weapons can cost 80 and then one Tau Strike Team with paper-like durability and virtually zero firepower is 100 :-D

I am just going to copy pasta what I said to my local boardgame store discord. My opinion remains pessimistic until I see these changes actually making a difference. Still meh sustainability and the changes over all will likely not make a big deal because the majority of these units are still worse options than Chosen/Forgefiend. Only ones I think that will start poking in more are Legionaries, Possessed(which I already use cause who doesn't love being able to pop a land raider in one turn), Maybe Venom(but people weren't really using at 120 so like is the 10 points gonna be the game changer). Most of these actually help me cause I use the useless shit like Cypher and helbrute, but for the larger base, the majority will likely not imapct. I could be wrong, but we shall see

Still holding out hope for Vashtorr. I swear if he's still this bad by the codex release I'm just gonna run him as a demon prince and cut my losses

thank tzeentch

Almost my entire 2k list just lost 10 points per unit 💪💪💪

GW lowering the points cost on elite armies for an obvious reason. Seems to be an ongoing trend...

Anyone have a good 2k list?

It’s good to be BAD! 😈

1st?

Gw can't balance their armies against both their own units and other armies. Why is there so much yo-yoing in the units! Looking forward though to see what impact this has on my opponents lists.

They SO needed to get megabuffs. Meanwhile, custodes are unplayable for 6 months at least.

I have always love running a terminator squad + lord in terminator armour, undivided for those sweet re-roll to hits + re-roll to wound. Glad they have made the combo just a little bit cheaper

walking possessed over will still not be a good gameplan. but the rest seems nice.

Possessed are actually pretty trash, even with the points cuts. They don't do damage if they're not Undivided for the rerolls and they're not deliverable if they're not Slaanesh. The continued nerfing of Indirect is better for them, but the squad *desperately* needs access to another pip of AP.

We thought CSM was gone from the meta..nah, they were just on a smoke break..

Just when the new battleboxes and codex are about to drop how strange can coincidence get sometime....

I dont get the way GW balance chaos marines. They make them amazing, then crap then amazing etc lots of yo-yoing.

Add a comment...😢

Points decrease is not a buff.

Dude please, get some sleep