Chicago CUBS at San Francisco GIANTS 6/10/72 Original NBC Broadcast (Kinescope)

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Phenia Films the MLB archives Original Broadcasts

Phenia Films the MLB archives Original Broadcasts

3 жыл бұрын

Complete and original NBC's Baseball Game of the Week from San Francisco Candlestick Park with Jim Simpson and Tony Kubek in KINESCOPE
Recorded off two original commercial VHS tapes I picked up in Cooperstown in 1988 its was all about VHS back then..was lucky to find this
The original tapes have been digitalized and cleaned up images and some audio corrections
Boxscore
www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1...

Пікірлер: 150
@stevetimmermans5311
@stevetimmermans5311 3 жыл бұрын
Whoever is putting these old games out...Thank you!!
@pheniafilmsthemlbarchiveso9229
@pheniafilmsthemlbarchiveso9229 3 жыл бұрын
ah me maybe lol
@kenlucas7025
@kenlucas7025 3 жыл бұрын
@@pheniafilmsthemlbarchiveso9229 Can you get any Candlestick videos before enclosure?
@rapalbumdepot7648
@rapalbumdepot7648 4 ай бұрын
Hell yeah best game in the world
@jgrau5089
@jgrau5089 3 жыл бұрын
If you wanted to experience winter in the summer you didn't go to the North Pole, you went to a night game at Candlestick Park.
@kenlucas7025
@kenlucas7025 3 жыл бұрын
No Shit!
@nala3038
@nala3038 2 жыл бұрын
@@kenlucas7025 really!
@joeh52
@joeh52 Жыл бұрын
Candlestick was baseball's wind chill factor, especially for night games. Yet we as fans never knew what the temperature felt with the wind speeds.
@kidfromdaheights
@kidfromdaheights 3 жыл бұрын
Ron Santo. A class act. RIP
@larrysproul9424
@larrysproul9424 3 жыл бұрын
I met Ronnie in 2008 in Mesa at Spring training . He could not have been nicer to his beloved fans .
@MrAitraining
@MrAitraining 3 жыл бұрын
A lot of my old baseball cards on that field.
@philiptucci2458
@philiptucci2458 3 жыл бұрын
Great broadcast, I love all the old games on KZfaq, very enjoyable, I remember this game like it was yesterday, great memories of life
@eddiesimms9301
@eddiesimms9301 8 ай бұрын
I love these old B&L Baseball games from the early 70's. I would LOVE to see the 1971 NLC SF vs PITTSBURGH, the LAST time the aging Giants had a winning season.
@LarryBarkerPBP100
@LarryBarkerPBP100 2 жыл бұрын
Great at the beginning to hear Jeff Carter sing the national anthem. He was the Giants PA announcer for many years and sung the anthem before every home game.
@blackhorse11thACR
@blackhorse11thACR 3 жыл бұрын
Steve Stone future Sox announcer. Nice to see old games on You Tube. Good memories of the teams and my youth.
@mikeizme20021
@mikeizme20021 3 жыл бұрын
Future Cubs announcer too. And Cubs pitcher.
@kellyjay7448
@kellyjay7448 3 жыл бұрын
Stone was actually one of the five players the Sox traded to the Cubs for Ron Santo.
@blackhorse11thACR
@blackhorse11thACR 3 жыл бұрын
Stone played for Giants, Sox, Cubs, Sox again , then the Orioles. He was an All-star with the White Sox and Orioles. He won 25 games with the Orioles on to winning the AL Cy Young. Chicago loves the Stone 🐎 Pony!
@alonenjersey
@alonenjersey Жыл бұрын
Somewhere I still have his '72 Topps card.
@timfremstad3434
@timfremstad3434 3 ай бұрын
@@blackhorse11thACR .....so does Baltimore
@hashimhorne7177
@hashimhorne7177 3 жыл бұрын
Fergie Jenkins during the 11 CGs in a row: 7-4, 2.47 ERA, .208 BAA.
@anthonyblengino4927
@anthonyblengino4927 3 жыл бұрын
It’s amazing. Ed Sudol is umpiring every game I find from the 60/70s on You Tube.
@matta3968
@matta3968 3 жыл бұрын
I'll bet my grandfather was in attendance. He had Giants season tickets for many years.
@jonboxleitner7354
@jonboxleitner7354 2 жыл бұрын
Shocker: Fergie Jenkins with a complete game win. And Jim Simpson was such a great sports announcer.
@thomaswolf723
@thomaswolf723 3 жыл бұрын
Here, Ferguson Jenkins just pitched his 11th consecutive complete game. Nowadays, most pitchers, including very good ones, will not pitch 11 complete games in their careers.
@anthonybrooks5040
@anthonybrooks5040 3 жыл бұрын
Strange times indeed, but we are in the "specialty" age. It's news nowadays if a starting pitcher records more than two complete games in a season! Asides from broadcasting next to the late, great Harry Carey for the Cubs, I'll always remember Steve Stone for striking out the side (part of 3 perfect innings) as a Baltimore Oriole (his Cy Young season) in the 1980 all-star game at L.A.
@jsd795
@jsd795 3 жыл бұрын
267 complete games in his career according to baseball reference. What a workhorse and even though he is in the HOF it seems like he is underrated and almost forgotten.
@jgrau5089
@jgrau5089 3 жыл бұрын
Ferguson Jenkins had some impressive stuff, great control and movement on his pitches. Steve Stone later played for the two Chicago teams and won the Cy Young with the Orioles in 1980.
@written12
@written12 3 ай бұрын
Jenkins pitched 14 games in a row without walking a batter, we learn here. Amazing, right?
@written12
@written12 3 ай бұрын
One of the poignant things here is when the announcer says Spier turned 22. He’s 74 this year.
@alonenjersey
@alonenjersey Жыл бұрын
I didn't hear the great voice of Jim Simpson until I caught him (and Paul McGuire) doing Monday Night U.S.F.L. games on ESPN.
@duanedorman6134
@duanedorman6134 3 жыл бұрын
I have missed this game the first two times it was up here. THANK YOU, THANK YOU for putting it up again. I will make sure to watch it this time. Thank you again. We need more of these games from the days of black and white television. Especially the NBC Game of the Week
@zxccxz164
@zxccxz164 3 жыл бұрын
what is really interesting is how many times they call dave kingman a SPEEDSTER!!!!
@LarryBarkerPBP100
@LarryBarkerPBP100 2 жыл бұрын
The game was telecast in color. No color recording of the game has survived because NBC, in those days, made a habit of erasing tapes so they could be used again. This is a kinescope (basically a film camera aimed at the TV) that was filmed in black and white.
@jamesnakamura
@jamesnakamura 3 жыл бұрын
Fergie Jenkins facing Willie McCovey! Wow! It's so cool to watch Stretch hit (even though he went 0-3). It's like I'm a kid again. Can you imagine what Jenkins would make in today's game putting up his numbers and workload?
@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854
@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854 3 жыл бұрын
~RIP Ron Santo~
@BillMorganChannel
@BillMorganChannel 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you Phenia!
@williamdunphy352
@williamdunphy352 3 жыл бұрын
Umpires HP John Kibler 1B Nick Colosi 2B Satch Davidson 3B Ed Sudol (Crew Chief)
@Maurice895
@Maurice895 4 ай бұрын
Banks retired in 71, Cubs showing resolve.
@darkstarharry2947
@darkstarharry2947 3 жыл бұрын
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="116">1:56</a>:22 RIck Monday home run, and <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="120">2:00</a>:03 Ron Santo home run. Both in the top of the 9th.
@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854
@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854 3 жыл бұрын
GO CUBS! 😎👍
@truthhurtswilky7785
@truthhurtswilky7785 7 ай бұрын
Great to see. Thanks!
@tvtitlechampion3238
@tvtitlechampion3238 3 жыл бұрын
Ah, Jose Cardenal. Best 'fro of all time.
@mmaranta785
@mmaranta785 3 жыл бұрын
It was better than Dr. J and Dick Allen
@marlonelliot8943
@marlonelliot8943 3 жыл бұрын
Oscar Gamble would like to have a word with you
@wheelinthesky300
@wheelinthesky300 Жыл бұрын
There were more guys on the field than there are in the stands.
@nala3038
@nala3038 11 ай бұрын
Exactly lol
@jaycompany4886
@jaycompany4886 Жыл бұрын
This was the yr the athletics started their dynasty....what a run after that the reds n then the yanks won 2 chips a piece.
@williamdunphy352
@williamdunphy352 3 жыл бұрын
Commentators: Jim Simpson & Tony Kubek
@JohnSmith-op1tc
@JohnSmith-op1tc 3 жыл бұрын
The Great Jim Simpson, might I add. Really understated and worthy of the accolades given to Curt Gowdy, in my opinion. An excellent presenter.
@norms3913
@norms3913 3 жыл бұрын
I rather listen to them to listen to Joe buck stupid telecasting
@williamdunphy352
@williamdunphy352 3 жыл бұрын
@@JohnSmith-op1tc Probably the best #2 broadcaster at NBC they ever had. If Gowdy did the World Series on television, Simpson would do the World Series on radio.
@BillMorganChannel
@BillMorganChannel 3 жыл бұрын
@@JohnSmith-op1tc Jim Simpson, like all the greats in anything, made it look sooooo easy! What city are you in? I am in So Cal and we have the two worst base ball (two words) announcers I ever heard...Charlie Steiner for the Dodgers and Terry Smith for the Angels...borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring!
@Geotubest
@Geotubest Ай бұрын
Sweet Swinging´ Billy. My favourite.
@nealbfinn
@nealbfinn 3 жыл бұрын
‘72 was a long season for us Giants fans. We were coming off a division title and looking forward to the future. But they stumbled out of the gate and never recovered. Fifth place finish. Mays traded to Mets. Marichal’s first losing season. Spent all the money for artificial turf and couldn’t draw
@anthonyblengino4927
@anthonyblengino4927 3 жыл бұрын
The ol’ Gaylord for McDowell trade didn’t work out so well.
@zxccxz164
@zxccxz164 Жыл бұрын
Just looking at roster hard to believe.
@robertpalmer5599
@robertpalmer5599 3 ай бұрын
Miss those days when pitchers went a complete game. Who needs a closer.
@everetttauscher8377
@everetttauscher8377 4 ай бұрын
The only chance I got to watch the Cubs.
@chrisverby3047
@chrisverby3047 3 жыл бұрын
Charlie Lau once said that Billy Williams would have been a .310 lifetime hitter with more power if was not so top-hand dominant in his swing. Still put up fine numbers in a real pitchers' era.
@jaycompany4886
@jaycompany4886 Жыл бұрын
Bobby bonds, what a player....i remember when he came to yanks, tremendous of the field too...father was no slouch compare with his famous son...his son was a great ballplayer but, the serious steriods scandal is going to keep him off the hof.
@nala3038
@nala3038 11 ай бұрын
I hope it does keep him out of the HOF, btw, I’m a Giants fan.
@ronflatter1235
@ronflatter1235 Жыл бұрын
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="161">2:41</a> The national anthem performed by Jeff Carter, who also was the P.A. announcer. He would introduce the anthem and just start singing with the accompaniment of the old organ that was removed in the late ’70s or early ’80s.
@mayhemjr.803
@mayhemjr.803 Жыл бұрын
Hardly anybody there on a beautiful Saturday afternoon.
@murcson
@murcson 4 ай бұрын
I saw this game. Ibremember that catch by Maddox. I finally met Garry at Wrigley Field in 1987 and thought i was looking at my baseball cards.
@marlonelliot8943
@marlonelliot8943 3 жыл бұрын
Steve Stone. Future Cubs announcer
@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854
@mcgannahanskyjellyfetti6854 3 жыл бұрын
...also future Cubs pitcher! 😎👍
@davanmani556
@davanmani556 3 жыл бұрын
Cubs with those basketball number jersey.,
@jerryp6731
@jerryp6731 3 жыл бұрын
hahahaha
@SamWesting
@SamWesting 3 жыл бұрын
Pullover jerseys.
@mayhemjr.803
@mayhemjr.803 Жыл бұрын
Those looked terrible
@michaelleroy9281
@michaelleroy9281 Жыл бұрын
​@@mayhemjr.803 They were gone after that season number moved back to the side for 1973
@norms3913
@norms3913 3 жыл бұрын
Oh Ferguson Jenkins another unrated pitcher
@SamWesting
@SamWesting 3 жыл бұрын
Unrated? You mean underrated? Fergie is only in the HOF.
@nala3038
@nala3038 Жыл бұрын
Unrated??
@zxccxz164
@zxccxz164 Жыл бұрын
Excellent balk explanation
@michaelleroy9281
@michaelleroy9281 2 жыл бұрын
Chicago Cubs with their first double knit pull over jersey with a number in the middle on the chest ( like football) only used in 1972
@richardgeiger3726
@richardgeiger3726 2 жыл бұрын
I would love for tony Kubrick to explain how a baseball gathers speed while rolling on astroturf.
@paulpenniman1023
@paulpenniman1023 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, he said that ALL the time. I thought about this for years, and I think what happens is the rotational speed gets translated to rectilinear speed, so less rotation but a faster linear speed. I haven't confirmed this with anyone knowledgeable, though!
@nala3038
@nala3038 11 ай бұрын
It’s spelled Kubek
@mmaranta785
@mmaranta785 3 жыл бұрын
I remember those low attendance days
@everetttauscher8377
@everetttauscher8377 4 ай бұрын
NBC's Saturday game of the week!
@eddiesimms9301
@eddiesimms9301 8 ай бұрын
Ron Santos is a Seattle native, and a graduate of Franklin Hi School, infact, both he and my Mother were classmates. He played in the PCL which produced some great talent, Joe DiMaggio, Orlando Cepeda, Willie MaCovey and many more. Both my Mother and Ron Santos have since passed...R.I.P. In closing, I think the MLB writer's who play a MAJOR role in deciding WHO is eligible to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, in my opinion, DID NOT do Ron Santos justice by nominating him long after his death due to losing his battle with diabetes. The MAN was a SOLID player !!
@markn0024
@markn0024 3 жыл бұрын
Surely this broadcast was in color in 1972. Has it faded with age, or are my eyes deceiving me? Or is it a feature of the Kinescope? (Either way, great stuff.)
@pheniafilmsthemlbarchiveso9229
@pheniafilmsthemlbarchiveso9229 3 жыл бұрын
Big red google Kinescope it will answer your questions (film reels)
@mmaranta785
@mmaranta785 3 жыл бұрын
I saw Rick Monday hit a grand slam when he was with the Dodgers on the last Friday night of the season in 1982. 2 days later, Joe Morgan hit a HR to eliminate the Dodgers. That was a fun year
@duanedorman6134
@duanedorman6134 3 жыл бұрын
Tommy Lasorda said, "I could have shot him and no jury would have convicted me."
@mikeizme20021
@mikeizme20021 3 жыл бұрын
Stone, Kingman Speier, Rader Bonds were all future Cubs.
@steveprestegard5151
@steveprestegard5151 3 жыл бұрын
Charlie Fox was briefly their manager too.
@nala3038
@nala3038 2 жыл бұрын
That’s great knowledge there!
@pmsfar-outgrooviness8025
@pmsfar-outgrooviness8025 Жыл бұрын
you forgot Henderson
@willdrucker4291
@willdrucker4291 3 жыл бұрын
Jim Simpson:...”can you imagine....Denny McLain in the minors?”..unbelievable but true...1972 would be McLain’s last season in the major leagues...only 4 years from winning 31 for the World Championship Tigers and only 3 years from capturing his 2nd Cy Young award
@kellyjay7448
@kellyjay7448 3 жыл бұрын
Steve Stone pitching for the Giants? I'll be damned!
@alonenjersey
@alonenjersey Жыл бұрын
My longtime friend in Mercer County, NJ had a brother who was in the same prison as Denny McLain way back when. I'm told D.M. was his own worst enemy. Pure and simple.
@alonenjersey
@alonenjersey Жыл бұрын
@@kellyjay7448 Somewhere I still have his '72 Topps card.
@PresidentGas1
@PresidentGas1 3 жыл бұрын
Spent much of my childhood at the Stick in those days... hated that fucking Astro-turf BS
@mmcneil777
@mmcneil777 3 жыл бұрын
Candlestick Park was always empty in the outfield stands. Glad they moved out.
@kenlucas7025
@kenlucas7025 3 жыл бұрын
Because it was f- - king cold!
@larrysproul9424
@larrysproul9424 3 жыл бұрын
Yes they were froze out !!
@mayhemjr.803
@mayhemjr.803 Жыл бұрын
​@kenlucas7025 it didn't look cold this day. It looked nice, for a change.
@kevinfitzmaurice4072
@kevinfitzmaurice4072 3 жыл бұрын
Saturday, June 10, 1972--a week before the Watergate bteak-in.
@anthonyblengino4927
@anthonyblengino4927 3 жыл бұрын
Rookie Garry Maddox Scaling The Fence To Rob A Homer Alert.
@bobbyg433
@bobbyg433 3 жыл бұрын
Fanzone batting cleanup? Wtf
@mikeizme20021
@mikeizme20021 3 жыл бұрын
How they can mistake Santo for Kingman? Only look at number.
@bandit3837
@bandit3837 3 жыл бұрын
Stadium was empty. The 72 Giants truly sucked. Stoneham had traded Mays and the team was a mess. Got to see the giants play in August on Sacramento bee day. August 19, 1972.
@bigles9083
@bigles9083 3 жыл бұрын
That park sucked .Saw the Giants Cubs in summer a few years later.Parking attendant Leaning 3 feet from ground into the wind.
@written12
@written12 3 жыл бұрын
Mays was on the Mets by ‘72? I thought he came to the Mets in ‘73. I guess my memory is of Willie on the Mets during that World Series with the A’s
@MrDougman59
@MrDougman59 3 жыл бұрын
Giants had made the NLCS the year before but were really starting to feel their age and suffered from injuries during 1972. Marichial was done and Perry traded, McDowell was nearing his end. Needed to make changes, Maddox replacing Mays while heartbreaking was needed. McCovey had possibly his worst year. One void in the line up not mentioned was catcher Dick Dietz who placed on waivers. One of best batting eyes in the business; collected a ton of walks. I believe he was cast off because of union activity.
@jefflewis4
@jefflewis4 3 жыл бұрын
@@written12 Mays had been traded about a month before this game .
@michaelleroy9281
@michaelleroy9281 2 жыл бұрын
The year before they won a division title
@caesarbenutto845
@caesarbenutto845 Жыл бұрын
I want to compare old MLB games to the new games since MLB introduced the new rules for this season I want see if the new rules restore the game. Were the games faster pace back in 1970s 1980s. Then what do you think about the pitch clock ? Please reply !!
@nala3038
@nala3038 11 ай бұрын
I hate the pitch clock and all the other things they’ve changed esp that stupid rule where in the 10th inning and beyond, the batting team gets a runner at 2nd to start the inning.
@FloridaHeat72
@FloridaHeat72 11 ай бұрын
Didn’t know Candlestick Park was AstroTurf at some point
@straycatttt2766
@straycatttt2766 Жыл бұрын
Interesting factoid that the announcers said young Kingman was a base stealer!
@ronaldnanni298
@ronaldnanni298 8 ай бұрын
Mid 60's early 70's My Baseball card days.
@jerryp6731
@jerryp6731 3 жыл бұрын
I would like to know what was a fastball back then in terms of MPH
@manuginobilisbaldspot424
@manuginobilisbaldspot424 3 жыл бұрын
Most pitchers were mid 80's to low 90's (90-91). Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Seaver were your general exceptions and they had the dominance to prove it.
@zxccxz164
@zxccxz164 Жыл бұрын
Pre PED drugs.
@BillMorganChannel
@BillMorganChannel 3 жыл бұрын
I would say, no team drafted, and then traded better players than the Giants (Stone, Kingman, Maddox, Bonds, Gaylord Perry, George Foster, Orlando Cepeda, Adam Dunn, Jack Clarke, Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano,...agree?
@Akronkangaroo
@Akronkangaroo 8 ай бұрын
Cleveland Indians
@michaelleroy9281
@michaelleroy9281 2 жыл бұрын
The Giants fell hard in 1972 one year after winning the NL West in 1971
@kenq1363
@kenq1363 3 ай бұрын
It’s nice watching players not celebrate something every five seconds. No flexing. No pointing. No stupid yelling. Baseball in tv today just sux.
@raydemos1181
@raydemos1181 2 ай бұрын
i did not no Steve stone was such a bad pitcher; this is the first time i ever saw his pitching
@michaelleroy9281
@michaelleroy9281 Жыл бұрын
Giants with the poor attendance, does anyone know the Giants almost moved to Toronto in 1976 before the Blue Jays were established one year later?
@daniellinehan63
@daniellinehan63 3 ай бұрын
Stoney got traded for Santo in '74
@jamesblack449
@jamesblack449 2 ай бұрын
How could Dave Kingman play for both clubs at the same time?He's batting Right handed for the Giants and left handed for the Cubs.
@nala3038
@nala3038 Ай бұрын
Incorrect
@written12
@written12 3 жыл бұрын
I had no idea Candlestick ever had artificial turf
@matta3968
@matta3968 3 жыл бұрын
Artificial turf from I believe 72 thru 78 seasons.
@jefflewis4
@jefflewis4 3 жыл бұрын
Turf was installed in 1970, in 1978 the last season it had turf, 7 of the 12 NL stadiums had artificial turf.
@fishmojo865
@fishmojo865 3 жыл бұрын
Worst concrete Astro Turf anywhere. Watch it in Clint Eastwood Magnum Force where they kidnapped the mayor. I remember going in the nasty men’s restroom and pissing in “ The Trough”. My favorite Giants were the Roger Craig teams. Will Clark, Robbie Thompson, Jose Uribe,
@duran007fan5
@duran007fan5 3 жыл бұрын
I think that was in the movie The Enforcer not Magnum Force.
@mayhemjr.803
@mayhemjr.803 Жыл бұрын
​@@fishmojo865can't knock " the trough" man. A guy can get in and out of there in two seconds😂🤣
@AwesomeBeatles
@AwesomeBeatles 3 жыл бұрын
I saw Fergie pitch o Sept. 1 , 1971. Cubs won , Fergie hit two home runs.
@adm712
@adm712 2 жыл бұрын
There is something very very wrong with this game. Joe Pepitone is not in the starting lineup for the Cubbies.
@straycatttt2766
@straycatttt2766 Жыл бұрын
Pepitone had walked out on the Cubs in a salary dispute in late April 1972, claiming he was retiring. He ended his holdout in late June.
@cjones3710
@cjones3710 3 жыл бұрын
Thank u so much for baseball with americans playing the american game
@straycatttt2766
@straycatttt2766 Жыл бұрын
Jose Cardenal was Cuban.
@PresidentGas1
@PresidentGas1 3 жыл бұрын
Saturday , end of June and the Giants drew 5,000 to this game. SMH
@zxccxz164
@zxccxz164 3 жыл бұрын
that is what you get when the govt doesn't subsidize businesses to buy up tickets and use them as tax write offs.....
@mayhemjr.803
@mayhemjr.803 Жыл бұрын
Terrible
@matta3968
@matta3968 3 жыл бұрын
Well I think the Giants mgr did a crappy job in this game. Never should have let Stone hit in the bottom of the 8th with a potential insurance run in scoring position. Additionally, his decision to let Stone face Monday in the 9th was bad, when you have a lefty ready in the bullpen.
@haulem
@haulem 3 жыл бұрын
NBC game of the week had the worst camera shots in television history
@daniellinehan63
@daniellinehan63 3 ай бұрын
Fergie-3,000+ k's less than 1,000 BB
@richardgeiger3726
@richardgeiger3726 2 жыл бұрын
Kubek
@roseandbench
@roseandbench 3 жыл бұрын
Nice seeing the Lip in the dugout during his waning days as Cubs skipper. Look how little the attendance is at chilly Candlestick. With the players knelling and the planned-demic we may see this again.
@fitcwebb
@fitcwebb 3 жыл бұрын
good call on the scam-demic
@kellyjay7448
@kellyjay7448 3 жыл бұрын
Silly fucking Trumper. LOL!
@nala3038
@nala3038 Жыл бұрын
There’s always an idiot who can’t leave politics well enough alone!
@michaelleroy9281
@michaelleroy9281 Жыл бұрын
I always get a charge out of comments from news from 2023 being used in a ballgame from 1972 , one has absolutely nothing to do with the other
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