Christian Universalism: Eternal Life vs Eternal Punishment

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The Orthodox Universalist

The Orthodox Universalist

Күн бұрын

Christian Universalism: Eternal Life vs Eternal Punishment
What does the word "eternal" mean? Does it just mean "everlasting" or is there more to it?
Addressing the article “12 Questions for the Would-Be Universalist,” Released by The Gospel Coalition in December, 2022, and written by Michael McClymond.
www.orthodoxuniversalist.com
Discussing universal salvation. Following the universal King.

Пікірлер: 37
@jamesmccluskey7
@jamesmccluskey7 Ай бұрын
Another great video. Thank you. Like you, I was long time believer in an eternal hell until I read article by Yale professor Keith Derose entitled “Universalism and the Bible”. It changed my thinking completely. I now believe in “restoration for all”- through Jesus. Keep up the good work. I will send along your videos to others.
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist Ай бұрын
Thanks a bunch for the encouragement and feedback!
@shokannon1806
@shokannon1806 Жыл бұрын
I'm thoroughly enjoying your videos. I would also enjoy long form. Thank you for your work, your faith, your patience. May God Bless you and continue to encourage you in your Faith.
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for the encouragement! Long form is definitely a goal of mine for the channel!
@transfiguredword7892
@transfiguredword7892 Жыл бұрын
I so agree with the central point you make here, how John’s comment is about the nature and quality of Divine Life, not the “duration”. As such, I will often use the term Abundant Life, rather than Eternal Life, to avoid such problems of understanding. Thus I have come that you might have Life, and have it more Abundantly! (John 10:10b) In truth, I think the kingdom of heaven is WITHIN, and we become partakers of that Divine Life as our old life is laid down (kenosis), so that the Life of Christ might become our New Identify (theosis). Thus Paul said… “For I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me!” (Gal 2:20). The moment Christ begins to rule and reign WITHIN us (as us), the kingdom of heaven becomes our Reality! Physical death is not our ticket of entry. Laying down the old self is…so the Messiah might be unveiled in our lives. (Col 1:27, 2 Cor 13:5) As we grow in revelation, we come to discover what Archbishop Alexander Golitzin once said (quoting from Macarius), how “the soul is the chariot throne of God”. And thus what Scripture truly unveils as we read it with lenses of the Spirit, is that Christ dwells in us (Col 1:27). And thus we are the Bush Aflame with the Consuming Fire of God’s Love! Meanwhile, I loved how you quoted John 17:3, where Jesus tells us: “And THIS is Eternal Life, that they KNOW You”! Amen to that!! To know the Father’s Love is to live a Life of Abundance!!
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist Жыл бұрын
Thanks a bunch for the feedback and encouragement! While eternal life is so often thought of as something that is only associated with the future, we ought to view it as something we can experience here and now as well! “Laying down the old self… so the Messiah might be revealed in our lives.” Great take!
@alecbateman4498
@alecbateman4498 9 ай бұрын
Bravo! this channel is fantastic, thank you for everything you do!
@oe7707
@oe7707 8 ай бұрын
As a fallible, envying, jealous, lustful, deceitful, treacherous human being, if I’m able to have mercy on people and thinking that the punishment of hell for everlasting is just not God like specially given that God is good and beyond merciful and good than our mind can phantom. What would be the need to punish human being in hell for eternal life? Specially from God? Or a better question, would you put your own kids or wife or mother or father in constant suffering and pure anguish last forever and forever? I get it if God wants to cleanse us in hell to prepare us for heaven but I don’t know.
@SpareHeadOne-yg3ox
@SpareHeadOne-yg3ox Жыл бұрын
Rimelli touches on this The source is eternal It would be like saying “Viking life” or “Viking punishment” Eternal life sin punishment Mark 3:29 """but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness to the age, but is guilty of an eternal sin”"" No one thinks that this sin is Everlasting as though once you start blaspheming it never stops. It is called an "eternal sin" because it is committed against direct contact with the Eternal One. Hebrews 6:2 """of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of Eternal Judgement.""" No one thinks that this Judgment is Everlasting as though Judgement Day never ends. It is called Eternal Judgement because the judgement comes from direct contact with the Eternal One. Hebrews 9:12 ""”Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption""" No one thinks that redemption is Everlasting as though the redeeming never ends. It is called Eternal Redemption because the redemption comes from direct contact with the Eternal One. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 """These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,""" Neither should one think that this destruction is Everlasting as though destruction can never be achieved and therefore never ends. It is called Eternal Destruction because the destruction comes from direct contact with the Eternal One. Matthew 25:46 """And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”"" Neither should you think that this punishment is Everlasting as though the punishment never ends and justice is never satisfied. It is called Eternal Punishment because the punishment comes from direct contact with the Eternal One. And it is called Eternal Life because the Life comes from direct contact with the Eternal One. Grammatically the adjective Eternal can only be to do with the duration of the source of the life and not the duration of the recipient of the life.. Hence the Eternal Life can go in and out of you… John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.” Eternal Life is IN you. 1 John 3:14-16 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him. 16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers and sisters. Eternal Life is IN you or not IN you. 1 John 1:2 and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was revealed to us- The eternal life IS The Word of Life 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. The True God IS Eternal Life
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist Жыл бұрын
Love Rimelli!
@cyranodicorvino8308
@cyranodicorvino8308 Жыл бұрын
Thank you brother, I am enjoying these.
@warrenroby6907
@warrenroby6907 Жыл бұрын
Matthew 25 gives no support to infernalist claims! Note verse 32 which mentions “nations.” Political entities are either welcomed into God’s kingdom or rejected based on how they treat the “hungry, thirsty , sick …” who actually represent the “brethren” of King Jesus, that is, the church. Mt 28:19 mentions making disciples of nations. There is no mention of individuals in either chapter.
@jasonegeland1446
@jasonegeland1446 Жыл бұрын
Excellent presentation!
@Quirkyhndl
@Quirkyhndl Жыл бұрын
Well said, looking forward to your other videos. On a side note, you mentioned being "pro-life," and I just want to point out that doesn't mean you need to be "anti-choice" or "pro-ban." There are better ways to deal with the issue than forcing 10 year olds to have their rapists baby and endangering the lives of women having miscarriages in their bathtub. 1 Cor 5:12, even a belief that life begins at conception (which I contend the Bible does not actually support) does not mean we should force that idea on secular society.
@WakingWildflower
@WakingWildflower 6 ай бұрын
​@TheWarblersGuild "internal damage" is not how the vagina works, sorry. there often isn't damage because the vagina is built to give birth, built to take damage. even a 10 year old, depending on how far along she is in puberty, might not have "damage" visible. people can lose their hymen from falling roughly. so you can't really even tell if a girl is a virgin. and no, you can't "prevent the pregnancy by washing out the womb." it can help but it's not a guarantee. ever. besides, after being raped, especially if you're young, isn't only not what someone completely traumatized will probably think of first, but often isn't possible.
@WakingWildflower
@WakingWildflower 6 ай бұрын
I agree. I think both the pro choice and pro life movement are two sides of the same evil coin. and besides, if a woman wants to kill her baby, that sin is on her. forcing people to have kids only leads to more kids in the awful, traumatizing foster system, often where a lot of people are trafficked. and a lot of times these kids grow up abused because the parents didn't want them. I don't love abortion. but I also don't love forced birth. the real goal should be to have people stop getting pregnant and getting people pregnant. that means contraceptives and education but lots of conservative Christians don't like that. they are too delusional to understand that abstinence just doesn't work and teenage pregnancy is higher in states with abstinence only programs. another issue I have is that if you're pro-life, you better be adopting kids. you better be willing to walk to walk. you better be giving A LOT to single mothers and fathers, and you better be helping them out and not being a hypocrite. abortion is the fault often of Christians and the church. purge laziness and apathy have left people lost and with no help. if more churches gave and helped it wouldn't be as big of a problem. but we don't. it's on us. it's an awful, stupid choice we have to make. prevent the pregnancy or we as Christians need to help more. but denying access to abortions doesn't make abortions happen less. it just makes them less safe, often killing the baby and the mother. that is NOT pro-life. neither is criminalizing women who have miscarriages, which is already happening. ot denying women abortions when they're going to die, especially since most often the baby won't even survive. that's not about life. it's about control. there are better, more godly options. people just would rather make the choice easiest for them and their conscience. like I said I don't revel in abortions. but there has to be something better between the two extreme options.
@WakingWildflower
@WakingWildflower 6 ай бұрын
besides, the bible never has jews or Christians changing secular law or society. it's about the change of heart of the individual more often than not. I don't believe it's christ-like to focus on passing laws to force your beliefs on people. it's more biblical go pray for them and for God's will and let the world be as wicked as it wants. we aren't of this world and out focus shouldn't be on this world.
@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575
@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575 Жыл бұрын
Even amongst convinced universalists there are varying interpretations of eschatology. For me, I think it is fair to say that the “judgment” spoken of in Matt 25 is its focal point. This judgment day is a “period of time” that has both a beginning and an end. Many may envisage it being short, sharp and quick, but that is not necessarily the case, especially when we consider the words of 2 Peter 3:8. This “day” or this “age” of judgment could well be a considerably long duration, for the scripture does say that he must reign “until” he has put all his enemies under his feet. At this point, it is interesting to note some poor translations concerning the duration of this reign:- Rev 11:15: - “Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for “ever/aiōnas” and “ever/aiōnōn” [NASB]….. Emphasis added. Yet, I Cor 15:25 -28 shows us that he will “not” reign forever and ever. I Cor 15:25 -28: - “He must reign “until” He has put all his enemies under his feet etc... Christ's reign as King is perpetual only for as long as it lasts. A more literal translation of Rev 11:15 would read as follows:- Rev 11:15: - And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, >[and he shall reign to the ages of the ages]< [YLT]...... Emphasis added. This, to me at least, makes some kind of sense concerning the context of Matt 25:46. The timeline being spoken of is a “limited” age of judgment. Jesus reminds us of this when he said “Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the age-during/abiding fire”. During this judgment, the Greek word for life is Zoe which does allow for an understanding of a “type” of life. The same Greek word is used in John 10:10, where it speaks of a better “quality” of life. Those who reign with Christ during this “time period” will share in the wellness and blessings he has to give. In stark contrast, the subjects of the outer darkness will in some way be sorely vexed for the duration allotted to them through this age of judgment. In Matt 25:46, I would say that it wasn’t Jesus’ intention for the reader to be looking beyond the age of Judgment he was speaking about. Jesus was simply contrasting the quality of “life” during this “age”. After all, it’s not unusual for God to deal with people in given “ages” Keep up the good work. Peace
@transfiguredword7892
@transfiguredword7892 Жыл бұрын
You make some really excellent points here. I think Jesus introduces a kingdom era of “sonship”, but one had to let go of the previous era or age of legalism, condemnation, and wrath (Gal 4:1-7, Rom 10:4). And perhaps the same holds true today! Sons know the Love of the Father, and thus become partakers of a more Abundant Life. Thus I loved your reference to John 10:10. I have come that you might have Life, and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY! Or like Paul says to the Galatians...No longer slaves, but sons! (Gal 4:7) Sons that know the Love of the Father. For this is eternal life…to KNOW ME! (John 17:3) Likewise I agree how a judgment on sheep and goats is evident in the judgment proclaimed in Matthew 23, that the house was being left "desolate" for those who had shunned their day of visitation (Matt 23:37-38). And thus the kingdom was being taken from the present leadership and given to those who would produce its fruit (Matt 21:43). Just as the parable of the Vineyard Owner suggests. And yet, Paul assures us of the MYSTERY that despite such judgment, eventually ALL Israel would be reconciled (Rom 11:25-26). I suppose one could characterize that judgment as age-enduring. But the end is the reconciliation of all! (2 Cor 5:19) So NOT an "eternal" judgment. And to better understand the previous prophetic context for judgment on sheep and goats, we would be wise to read Ezekiel 34 and Zech 10:3. Because such was always understood as a prophetic judgment on leadership for failing to care for and nourish the flock (Ezek 34:2, 17). Anyhow, awesome response!
@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575
@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575 Жыл бұрын
@@transfiguredword7892 Thank you for your post and your encouraging words. Peace
@Quirkyhndl
@Quirkyhndl Жыл бұрын
Besides for the very legitimate arguments over the translation of aionios as "eternal" (and "forever and ever" is actually "to the ages of the ages" in the Greek), my go to response to verse like Matt 25:46 is John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John clearly is not comparing aionios life with never-ending life in the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus qualifies this specifically when he says he gives aionios life and it "shall not perish." John 10:28). Rather, he compares it to knowing God and our Redeemer. You could certainly make assumptions from there, but an assumption can always be overturned. it is not explicit enough to build an entire theology on, especially not one as condemning as ECT.
@WakingWildflower
@WakingWildflower 6 ай бұрын
you all are so smart. i'm such a noob to all of this...
@IvanRamljakSOY
@IvanRamljakSOY 3 ай бұрын
Aman
@WDYD
@WDYD 3 ай бұрын
The one thing I have a problem with and that is supposed punishment for sin either temporary or eternally, Christ died for ALL sin there is NO punishment for something that has already been paid for!!
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist 3 ай бұрын
I recognize your point. Just as Scripture explains that he “died for all sins,” though, it also clearly states that if we reject him we will face punishment (Matt 25:46). There’s a lot we could talk about in regard to why punishment will take place but to share scripture faithfully we have to declare that it will take place. Thanks for sharing!
@pixbud7465
@pixbud7465 2 ай бұрын
Hi Im amazed by your teaching. Just wanted to ask. If the bible really teaches Universalism. Why do we need to soul win and even the verses in Romans road.?
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist 2 ай бұрын
Welcome to the channel! Thanks for the comment! Historically, Christian Universalism of the biblical kind (the kind I defend in my videos) still values the necessity of repentance. According to the earliest Christian Universalists, hell was a real place, the world was broken and needed a savior, and the life of the future (the life of eternity) would be ruled by a merciful BUT just King (Jesus). For all these reasons, repentance was still of central importance to them and it ought to be just as important for us today. We labor as fishers of men because we have been granted the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:17-18). That is, we have been commissioned by the King to work to see people reconciled to him, and through him to the life of the imperishable kingdom over which he rules.
@KevinGeneFeldman
@KevinGeneFeldman 10 ай бұрын
Do you think there is a reason God does not plainly state the fate of the unsaved? Could there be a reason its been left so ambiguous and debated? For something that seems to have such an enormous weight, uncertainty must be on purpose, but to what purpose?
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist 10 ай бұрын
Thanks for reaching out! You highlight a great point. To your question, I think the answer is yes: there is some “uncertainty” regarding the fate of the unsaved. Yet, I would propose that we need to distinguish between their imminent fate in the afterlife and their ultimate fate according to Scripture. I just can’t get around the universalistic and salvific language of texts like Isaiah 45, Philippians 2, Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, and others. There is a clear indication in such Scriptures that “all” and “everything” will ultimately be reconciled to Christ. Eternal punishment is a real thing. It is a punishment which transcends the terrestrial, the temporal, etc. And for the early church fathers, such as Nyssen, it was believed that it even might last for “ages.” But the lack of clarity concerning the nature or length of the punishment doesn’t cancel out the promises given of a universal salvation. If universal salvation is promised (and I contend in my latest series that it is) then the uncertainty has to be characterized by the certain. An intentionally blurry part of a portrait highlights the central feature. And, at least for me, a universal reconciliation of all things to God is a main feature of the early Christian message.
@neuroendocrinologist
@neuroendocrinologist Жыл бұрын
I’ve been in dialogue with universalists for many years now. For someone like me who’s immersed in academic Biblical studies, honestly the main way you frame your response here immediately raised a big red flag. Hope this isn’t too harsh; but with rare exception I’ve found that few universalists have any familiarity with even the most basic tents of Biblical scholarship, and don’t seem to place any great importance on it. They tend to read the Bible much like fundamentalists (perhaps due to the fact that many are ex-evangelicals, or even still consider themselves evangelicals) - rarely acknowledging distinct authorial perspectives, and often uncritically harmonizing different passages with little argument or justification. As this relates to the argument you made in this video, the first thing I noticed is that you didn’t spend any time acknowledging that the gospel of John is universally understood by scholars to be very distinct from the other three gospels in terms of both language and ideology. This not only calls into question whether “eternal life” in Matthew is exactly the same as what’s being talked about in John; but even more significantly, you didn’t even spend any time arguing for why “eternal life’” in John *doesn’t* entail eschatological immortality. By contrast, though, most biblical scholars think that “eternal life” even in John still implies this - just that the gospel uses unique language indicative of the present, “realized” guarantee of this future immortality. It absolutely doesn’t mean that “this is eternal life: knowing God/Christ” is a formal re-definition, any more than “this is happiness: being curled up with a warm cat” means that we have to redefine “happiness” as being related to felines. Rather, in that instance, for example, “knowing God/Christ” is equated with eternal life insofar as it ultimately and eventually *yields* eschatological immortality.
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist Жыл бұрын
I welcome criticism and definitely don’t think your take was too harsh. The point I was seeking to convey, without digging to deeply into it for the sake of brevity, is that the idea of eternity should be understood in terms of something not only as without end, but as something without beginning or end. It’s the beyond-time, that is associated with the divine/God. This is clearly illustrated in the writing of the Fathers (Nyssen, Nazianzen, Athanasius, etc). My argument isn’t simply rooted in my own interpretation but in theirs. They knew what such terms conveyed in the Greek far better than I do and - I’m bold enough to say - far better than modern scholarship does. If you want to understand the nuances of the French language, you can rely on a Frenchman or you can listen to a an Englishmen who teaches French but has never been to France. Similarly, I have a tendency to rely on the early, eastern fathers for my understanding when arriving to my understanding of the nuances of Ancient Greek, and not as much on modern interpretations that deviate from this. I’m definitely still learning. Overall, my goal is truth. If we can throw more light on these questions - even through disagreement - I’m excited!
@neuroendocrinologist
@neuroendocrinologist Жыл бұрын
@@orthodoxuniversalist In your response to your first point: That’s kind of creating a problem that shouldn’t really be made, and then framing your response around that unnecessary problem. Neither Greek nor any other language that I know of has terminology that distinguishes between eternity/perpetuity in the sense of “without beginning and without end” versus simply “without end.” Even someone like Ilaria Ramelli is aware of countless instances where ἀΐδιος is used in a mundane sense of “permanent.” Something like John 12:50 also rhetorically identifies God’s commandments *as* eternal life. Is there any doubt that in this instance, this only means to say that following God’s commands *yields* or “leads to” eternal life (compare Deuteronomy 32:47)? Again, if so, this makes it unnecessary to redefine aionios in any more abstract “qualitative” sense - much less take this Johannine rhetoric as carte blanche to use this new blanket redefinition and apply it across the board to any and every other passage we want. If you’re aware of some argument by early patristic interpreters that gives you reason to believe otherwise, I’d be interested in it. But I think we have enough to go on here in terms of Biblical and lexicographical logic alone.
@orthodoxuniversalist
@orthodoxuniversalist Жыл бұрын
@@neuroendocrinologist Thanks again for the feedback! First, I’d like to clarify that my interpretation of “eternal” isn’t a personal “new blanket redefinition.” Do you reject Barclay’s view as mentioned in the video? Love Ramelli, but I’d have to ask to elaborate on why her defining of such a term as denoting “permanence” defeats my argument. David Bradshaw explains that the terms the church fathers used for eternity (ἀΐδιος vs αἰώνιος) were often used interchangeably. This is intriguing when we find Athanasius defending the divinity of Christ on the basis of such terms, arguing specifically by this means that Christ had no beginning. The reality is that there is a conventional - not necessarily historical - “blanket” definition that is employed today when we consider such terms in association with the promise of eternal life/punishment. I’m definitely not demanding that terms for eternity should carry identical nuances in every context. My argument is, in fact, that the terms are simply more ambiguous than conventional interpretations suggest. They regard something associated with the permanence of God himself, but we have to rely on the context to understand how we should define that something in more detail. And when considering the surrounding context for these terms (along with a hermeneutic which seeks to take into account the whole narrative of Scripture and God’s revealed nature), I consistently find the conventional interpretations wanting.
@neuroendocrinologist
@neuroendocrinologist Жыл бұрын
@@orthodoxuniversalist To answer your first question: yeah; I honestly find Barclay’s definition nearly nonsensical - that it can only properly be applied to God; therefore the other uses of the term in relation to eschatological things are also being used in some sense that pertains to the divine nature (“such as befits…”). I wouldn’t even know where to start in critiquing that. How does claim B even follow from claim A at all? I’m any case, David Bradshaw, who you mentioned, is correct that (in 99% of its usage) there’s no identifiable semantic distinction between the use of aionios and aidios. And again, this applies whether we’re talking about some more technical philosophical definition of these, or a more mundane sense of something simply being permanent/perpetual. The most natural use of aionios is to denote the longest duration of which the event or phenomenon in question can last - or “irreversible.” By contrast, there are no instances in Greek literature where it ever pertains to a specific “age” or anything.
@WakingWildflower
@WakingWildflower 6 ай бұрын
this was fascinating to read. I just wish I understood it all 😅
@Btw_visit_____todacarne-com
@Btw_visit_____todacarne-com 10 ай бұрын
Very important: "aionios" means the SAME in BOTH cases. Any christian universalist SHOULD understand any repetition of the same word in the same context as meaning the same. I do not go for this interpretation of the text because it leaves the question of "what about all other appearances of 'eternal life'? Do not they mean 'eternal' in the sense of everlasting?" Instead I point out in my free ebook that in this verse there is the ONLY occurrence of the sequence "eternal punishment", the sequence of the words G2851 (kolasis) followed by G166 (aionios), in the entire new testament. Kolasis means correction according to the Mr Strong’s code. In addition, it comes from the word G2849 kolazó, which was used for the word “prune”, as when a tree is pruned. That is to say, that the phrase should be translated as: "eternal correction”. Like a LOVING Father corrects his sons. But there are additional eschatological relations with this passage that are analyzed in the book to see how that "eternal correction" is very intimately related with the "eternal life" mentioned in the passage. They go hand in hand. They are not separate. Just like the "eternal fire" goes also hand in hand with the "eternal life". Have a look it is free.
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