Can you give an example of a grinder/burr configuration that WOULD excel for these more developed mild washed coffees?

X pro, he sayd it in his review video of zp6, that x pro cam bring a little bit of pop from those 82-84 coffes. I kinda agree with him, but its not like zp6 is bad for those coffes, its just that you get more clarity and you just taste a lot of caramel or something. Also you can taste roast defects. I had them bouth, for me zp6 is better then x pro, you push extraction higher and its easier to play with, since you get good grind uniformity

​@@HansProbs Kinu, 1zpresso JE, Jx K Max, X-Pro, Comandante are all hand grinders that work for these. But a burr like 64 Cast will also give you a fair and flattering representation.

Hey Lance! My testing is in 3 stages: Normal everyday use, followed by cupping, and finally side-by-side brewing and triangulations. The brewed cups are tasted blind and pushed to the same EY. I think one reason that could explain the differences in our results is that I also include lower-scoring coffees and more traditional roasts in my testing. Also, there can be some fundamental differences in our preferences. In my testing of the ZP6, I did prefer the results of MP and Cast consistently in blind triangulations (also with light roasts), whereas it seems you hold ZP6 in the same high regard as 078.

​@The Coffee Chronicler I also test low scoring coffees, down to 82 points and darker. I will say I think pushing to same EY isn't very helpful. They each need to be dialed in to their best. How blind triangulations were you able to get to? I'm curious because I know you didn't have these long. And do you do multiple cups of each? I always do 2-3 cups of each grinder in the same tasting. Anyway, just curious because your results are very much antithetical to mine, Denis Sabou (small roaster and enthusiast in Norway who has had his since November), and Aramse. I see prima said something similar, but they matched only grind size in their testing, which isn't a fair test. Some grinders are better at EY A, and others at EY B. Forcing them all to one standard isn't doing justice to them all. I always do a few tests matching EY at different levels as well as grind size at different sizes, but spend most of my time doing each to their individual best based on the preferences of those with whom I'm cupping or my own if alone. Anyway, thanks for not taking offense at my question! Not sure why someone thought I wad mocking. I've been following your stuff since I began on yt. Nothing but respect. (And I guess different methodological approaches ha!)

@@coffeechronicler I was also very curious about your connection to ghost burrs. I do not like ghost burrs and own both Fuji and Xeoleo. They were very, very different. Did you A/B ghosts vs the turbo? Or was that just speculation on past experience? Thanks for the back and forth! Hopefully it'll help viewers to see this exchange!

@@LanceHedrick Could it be, that you used the fines collector and disposed the fines and chaff and Asser used all of the grinds - and that could account for a difference?

@@jjevans1511 no- tested both ways.

I also made the mistake of upgrading when it wasn't necessary. I sold my 1Zpresso JX and upgraded to the K-max. While the K-max is definitely a better grinder I realized, after lots of practice and experimentation, that the other controllable variables in brew technique can easily make more of a difference than a relatively small grinder upgrade. In other words, with a "capable" grinder (like my original JX), by varying the brew technique I could easily have gotten brews that were as good (or better) than my K-max. Now, I am even thinking twice before upgrading from my Gen 1 Ode to the Gen 2 . I'm discovering that, brews that I dismissed from the Gen 1 Ode, can also be brought up to a high standard by varying the brew technique. In fact I may not even bother to upgrade the burrs from version 1.1 to version 2.

@@nternalPracticeThank you for sharing your experiences. Just curious, what did you find most moved the needle for you in improving your brews?

@@rhyanherkel142 I would say that the correct brew method and grind setting are the two biggest factors but, realize that, they are largely dependent on the variety and roast of the coffee (and there is no one size fits all solution). Let me give you the two examples that really opened my eyes. I mostly use two polar opposite pour-over V60 brew methods. One method is from James Hoffman who advocates (after blooming) pouring 60% of the water in the first 30 seconds and the remaining 40% in the next 30 seconds. The other is the Tetsu Kasuya 4:6 method. They both have advantages and disadvantages (which I won't go into) but, suffice to say that Hoffman's method excels for my favourite Ethiopian natural and, for a Sumatra that I'm currently enjoying, the 4:6 method is best. I'll use the Sumatra to make my point... Using Hoffman's method I can only get an adequate cup (of Sumatra) from my K-max but I can't even achieve "adequate" with my Gen 1 Fellow Ode (regardless of grind setting). On other hand, I can get a MUCH better cup (of Sumatra) using the 4:6 method from EITHER the K-max or the Gen1 Ode . In fact , using the 4:6 method and the correct grind, I now get the arguably best cup from the Ode (in comparison to the K-max). This is ironic since, using Hoffman's method (which works well for other beans), I can't get a decent cup of Sumatra from the Ode at all. In short, if I use the right brew method (and grind) for the bean, the grinder that I use is virtually irrelevant (as long as it's reasonably capable). Knowing what I know now, I am fairly convinced that I could equal anything I now produce with my K-max or Ode using only a JX (which is a highly capable and ridiculously affordable grinder). Beyond a certain point a more expensive, and theoretically "better", grinder gives you something DIFFERENT but, not necessarily better. (possibly because grinders are more of an art than a science). P.s. Personally I had to use a number of brew methods for a long time (more than a year) before it finally sank as to what they were doing and how they differed. Once you get a sense of those factors it's easier to sort out but, just changing grinders isn't the answer. Just a guess but, I think that the 4:6 method works so well for the Sumatra because the roast that I buy seems to be very prone to channeling and the 4:6 method seems to effectively reduce that problem (by giving the coffee multiple opportunities to off-gas).

Thanks, good to hear it made sense for somebody, I wasn't entirely sure how it came across :)

I thought the same thing, it is great to hear the opinion from someone with a different palate from Lance. This explains to me why he is so negative on the niche zero reviews when comparing to other youtubers, and maybe a lot of people will be disappointed when they receive their 078. I think I will be sticking to my 078s pledge now!

Came here to say this, video should be titled “Fomo killer.” Thank you! Subbing!

In the same camp. Not as impressed as many online made it out to be. I can see where its a “juicier” cup, but the acidity isnt as pleasant as I was hoping. The 078 is an enigma for sure. Lots of polarizing opinions.

Remember- not just my opinion. Always surrounded by 2-6 different experienced cuppers. But yeah! Weigh all opinions.

@@LanceHedrick Hi Lance my burrman, didn't expect to see you here! Quick question: if I already have a P64 with SSP MP in it for brew and modern-style espresso. Was thinking about getting a pair of SSP cast but that really complicates the purpose of my P64. Should I just go for the 078S for a relatively more traditional espresso, mid-dark dark brew, ice coffee, and all milk drinks? Thanks!

Hi Marc, always good to hear from you! Initially, I tested the grinder at lower RPM's. I have since upped speed to the max and brewed at tighter ratios like 1:15 and find I get more complexity out of the cups. With some beans, it can be pretty extraordinary. But with the majority, I still prefer more classic representations, especially from SSP Cast (both 64/83 mm).

Ha, I should have watched through to the end, you made an audio reference to explain lolol

I agree with the resting. 078 can showcase imbalance. I tried some light Yirgacheffe I roasted 3 days ago on it, and it tasted roasty and acrid, so But yeah, in generally it mellows it out.

I just got ordered a zp6. Can you share your experience with your pourovers with Zp6 and why you are thinking of the need to upgrade?

@@Tamimzzz hi there..pourovers and the zp6 arei still new to me ..just getting used to it..have had it 2 mo now...but as i noted an electric is more convenient at times....still undecided to keep zp6 or sell it to finance a 78.

Yeah, I think they would be solid for that. Based on memory (not side-by-side comparison) even 064s is better for brew than Uniform, so you might be able to downsize a bit.

Thank you for a fast reply. If I can also replace the Uniform with 064s or 078s than this is a no-brainer for me.

@@coffeechronicler one more follow up question😅 Do you consider 064s or 078s as the best option for an espresso electric grinder in their price range or would you recommend any other grinder?

Cause I'm furious. They even canceled my scale I had as an option cause they only ship it to Germany in the EU.

​@@mikeontwitie get the new basic model. Same price but better functionality.

Didn't hear about that yet. If correct, I would consider it a new low, even for a Kickstarter.

They sent an email about it today.

​​@@coffeechroniclerYep, they are only releasing a list of which countries are eligible for shipping after the campaign closes and everyone's credit card gets charged...

Think you will be very happy with 064s

@@coffeechronicler Tak for svar ;) Btw, do you think it's worth the wait to buy the 064s? I didn't make the kickstarter unfortunately. I really need an upgrade from my old Graef CM 80. The 064s just seems like one of the better flat burrs multipurpose options out there right now, and also with the availability to purchase it within EU (in near future, hopefully).

I think it will. When you have it on your kitchen counter with the dial facing forward, it feels quite subtle.

Prima Coffee released a review recently opining that the 078 presents fairly low acidity and fairly low clarity - the reviewer noted that he finds other ghost burr grinders lacking in acidity.

Aramse mentioned the muted acidity, good review

No he doesn't mention that

Haven't tried the Varia, but my guess is that it 64s would be better all around.

It's been a while since I used it with stock burrs, but just based on sensory memory (which is unreliable) I'd say 064s is as good or better for filter.

@@coffeechronicler Oh wow thank you! I have the Wilfa but I'm debating getting the 064 turbos (at the launch special price) or picking up the SSPs for the Wilfa. Do you mind me asking how you found the process of aligning the SSPs in the Wilfa?

@@coffeechronicler I'm currently debating between upgrading the burrs for my Wilfa Uniform or buying the Timemore 078. I only drink pour overs or clever dripper. Would you say that the coffee from Timemore 078 would be much better than Wilfa Uniform with SSP burrs? To upgrade the burrrs would cost £150 and to upgrade the grinder £480 after selling the Wilfa. I don't mind the quite large cost difference as long as that reflects in the quality of the coffee. Thank you.

Brewing at 30 TDS, so that's a very low buffer. The other grinders performed as per usual.

@@coffeechronicler Sweet. Thank you!

I really hope they fit. If it does I can't see any reason not to pick this over the Ode.

Very well. For dark roasts it's excellent.

@@coffeechronicler thanks for that response. Have you had a chance to try the niche duo yet?

Really hard question. Based on what others have been saying about 078s I think that's the one you should go for unless you already have experience with big flats. But just guesswork on my part.