​@m Way to perseverate! - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/eteJh9dm0qfFmYk.html

The reason people think this could be a fake is because the C50 was not available in that colorway and you have been evasive when asked for the serial number. I suspect the serial number is either absent due to an earlier repair or hidden under thick white paint. If this is the case then say so. You should have been honest at the outset and said it was repainted it and also who repainted it. This was an old and accident damaged frame. However it had not failed and could have still been ridden. I believe the more likely cause of those cracks in the paint was a bad respray. You did not highlight any cracks on the inside and I could not see any. I would invite your viewers to compare this 'review' of a C50 which had not failed to your one on a Giant Propel - a newer frame - which had actually failed irreparably. I quote 'the sort of satin matt tends to be a bit brittle. Sometimes we have seen like a knock on the top tube and the paint cracks and the underlying carbon can be ok sometimes'. In spite of the Propel having failed and having a massive void along the top tube and numerous voids in the adhesive as well as wrinkles and filler you spoke about these but left out the yellow pencil. At the end you concluded the Giant was overall quite good. How so? It certainly didn't last as long as the Colnago. You did not cut through the bottle cage rivnuts on the C50. I suspect a plausible reason for the ribbons of carbon and delamination near those was due to you breaking the last bit of carbon and then forcing the rivnuts back onto the frame for your discussion. I have to mention the bottom bracket insert again, possibly the most expensive bb shell ever conceived. You stated that someone might have an issue if they used a titanium bottom bracket without anti-seize. Who makes a titanium bottom bracket cup? You could equally have said this C50 is no good because if could be attacked by the acid atmosphere in Venus. Its true that it would be damaged on Venus but no one is ever taking it there.

And so? Where is colnago?

@Chris DON Really? What do you use? I spent 15 years trying to buy back my old C50 because I felt It was the best bike i'd ever ridden. I get to try basically every brand as I have a shop and we do repairs. I'm enjoying riding it currently. Its light comfortable, totally creak and rattle free. I love it. Going to build a C64 soon.

@@totalcycling ...........When I first saw this C50 frame - I immediately thought that it was a 'fake'. [the decals are a dead giveaway - especially the Colnago decal itself]. I also agree with you that this does not appear to be a standard Colnago colourway. I would also like to mention that I used to ride with a guy that had a brand new GIANT Propel - and less than 3 months after he bought it, the rear chain stay completely sheared which resulted in the rear mech lodging in the rear wheel and fetched him off! I was riding next to him at the time this happened and he was extremely lucky as he was on the inside - and just fell into a grassy ditch. However, if he had been on the outside, he would have fallen in the direct path of passing cars and other vehicles. Finally, for almost 25 years I have always ridden GIOS bikes - and never had a moment's problem with them. Despite their lack of kudos compared with some of the 'top brands' they are a lovely comfortable ride, relatively light and unbelievably robust. However, I have recently acquired a Colnago C60 and I am reasonably impressed. [mind you and like you, I do like the look of the C64!]

Much the same here. Admired the Mapei GB team of the mid 90s, eventually bought a C40 in Mapei "Art Decor" in 1998. Just to correct Leuscher Technik - the C40 was lightweight when they came out in 1996/97 ish, but yes, they are no longer comparable in weight to current carbon offerings. What I've seen doesn't surprise me too much, slightly disappointed to see if I'm being honest, but carbon frame development was still very much on the 45 degrees section of "Moores Law" in the 90s. My bike has less than 2000 miles on it, kept inside like yours and doesn't get wet or used in races/bunch rides. Colnago steel fork (pre Star Carbon) with Cinelli Grammo titanium stem so rides super smooth. If I was unfortunate enough to crash it, I'd probably accept I need to retire it to the wall as an art piece.

I did say that the C40 was a gamechanger, light and strong for it time..

​@amc1974 how is it treating you these days? And the C40 actually came out in '94.

Do you still own her? And how is she going?

Bike companies owned by investment firms, what could go wrong? Has that ever worked?

Wow, man, that is really scary! Not only i should expect my nago's might crumble under my butt, they may also disappear while i ride them!

September 2020 and a Colnago bike rider wins the Le Tour for the 1st time...riding for Team UAE (where the investment firm whom now own Colnago are located no less)....having taken the yellow jersey by 1 minute after overcoming a deficit of a minute on the penultimate stage individual time trial...what a strange coincidence...a Chimera in a world full of Mirages indeed...

@@92point5 It's up to you to think a mirage is real. Me, I don't drink sand !

I figured as much, I'm surprised people are so skeptical on the authenticity this really pre-dates the flood of generic stuff on Fleabay, Alibaba or Aliexpress buy quite a few years.

When you cobsuder the giant CF frames from 1995 are still going strong

Well said!

Definitely nice to hear from the perspective of a mechanic working on them. Our shop had a pretty similar relationship with Cervelo. As much as some people liked them, they had some decent qc problems for us and were frankly a pain. Personally I love the C40 but I may just be lucky since mine is an old team bike and has been rebuilt multiple times.

Really? kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jcqXm6Ry0tDdfKc.html&ab_channel=LuescherTeknik

I would agree that this was part of carbons learning curve and Colnago probably did more than many to bring carbon to the mainstream (if Colnagos can ever be called mainstream). New frames need much better production and inspection standards in order to safely meet ridiculously low frames weights of 700g but I wonder if modern cheaper frames are really any better made than this.

It looks like he should have bought a steel or titanium bike.

@@cccpkingu LOL there is no fun cutting up steel bikes. I have a colnago master and it is a heavy bike, that why I don't ride it, but its still around. I had a c60 and recently upgraded to a c64 disc. The C64 is a pleasure to ride. If I crash it I will send it in to get cut up.

Peak Torque 😂

Grandpa's Carbonara secret sauce recipe has been revealed ! Makes you wonder how come (no pun intended ;-) so many cyclists loved it so much ! It's almost like fetishism.

Sylvain Michaud *foolishism

I have been part of that testing in the past, it is a little more complex than that as it is difficult to accurately produce artificial flaws. Mostly these frames are tough as there is some redundancy in the design, this one did fail at the seat junction.

runningwithshemp I still ride my 2006 Tarmac every Sunday morning . I'm still happy with it and not tempted to upgrade and be a disc jockey .

@@splashpit My primary road bike is rim, but use disc on everything else (CX, XC and long travel gravity bike). Rim still my favorite and has got a place and will continue to be relevant as long manufactures support it basic high quality alloy rim. With performance it's pretty simple dry out = rim, trail, wet & mud = disk. I also don't see the point of a carbon rim expect for aero or freeride/DH For example a disc Mavic UST open carbon is 405 grams/$600 USD, vs 430 grams/$100 USD for alloy version. Seems crazy to pay $1000 to take 25 grams off only to add on 150-250 grams of sprung weight wheel (bigger spoke flanges, disc flange, rotor, bolts/centerlock etc). It's not like downhill or fat bike where an alloy rim is 250-400 grams heavier and not as strong

Rasmussen retain his 2005 Extreme C prototype and the 2006 training rig. He doesn't ride them as much as his newer C's but they're still in rotation

And Johan Museeuw did - but they don’t ride them anymore. Collectibles, not bicycles.

Dualshock Destroyer I can confirm this is 100% true. Rasmussen lives quite near me and I often see him on the Rabobank one

C Grigio cool, I’ve always liked the C40/50 - glad some of them are still being used as they should be 👍👍👍

Yes, materials and process have improved even in the last few years. It's hard to give a number as both are inter-related. Not many are bad enough to fail, however it does happen and you don't want it to happen to you.

I've seen their buses here in Dubai..

what about cutting up some random winspace frame??

@@maddoc68 haha

In the 1996 Paris Roubaix, the toughest test for a road bike, team Mapei came in first, second and third all on Colnago C40’s. And it wasn’t a Friday. I ride a 95 and a 2003 Colnago C40 regularly and they both still look great and ride fantastic. I’m sure the Winspace frame is good buts let’s race and abuse one in all weathers like that C50 obviously has for the next twenty years and see what it looks like then.

Lol. Big brand Bike tech is about max profits and marketing to dentist's, noobs and barristers.

@@durianriders ☝️☝️☝️ THIS.

hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha oh you silly boy!

@@durianriders you'd be surprised some of the guys in my group ruide bling but just work as clerks and sub 60k jobs. One bloke does uber and a shift at bws but just bought a $2000 wheelset. The professional guys i know are actually more shrewd and buy on the sales and even low use second hand. It's that old stereotype of 10k bike 2k car

I'm also curious. My guess is that it has improved, but I still think they are not as well made as Time, comes down to manufacturing techniques. I think they have more margin for error though in these lugged frames, since lugged design can't win in weight they have opted for safety instead and probably make them a bit overbuilt compared to others. I wouldn't get a C40 or C50 to ride, I've drawn the line at EPS (not sure that is right though, but I have one anyway), the steel frames I can get older. There's a lot of "conspiracy" comments here about manufacturers only in it for making big money and fooling customers etc. I don't believe in that. Quality problems we see here I think is mostly about limited know-how, they tried their best and this is what came out, unfortunately. Much of these problems show up after long time use, and Colnago is probably the most collectible brand and is very popular second hand so the frames see long time of use. I think they try to learn from their mistakes. Even if they were only in it for the money, improving design and manufacturing techniques is important, especially when their frames are used for such a long period of time. Today lugged designs is no longer competitive in races now when aero is so important and their Taiwan made frames are used there instead. It seems like they are marketing the Italian-made C64 more towards amateur riders, and indeed many report it to be a very nice riding bike. I'd love to have a C60 or C64, and I might get one second hand at some point to upgrade my EPS, which then probably will pass on to a new owner. Colnago frames in Italy is not extremely expensive, it's high end, but not excessive. Pinarello is more expensive. Seems to be huge markup at resellers in some other parts of the world though. Made in Italy does not guarantee any particular in quality, but it guarantees that the labor is much more expensive due to that the workers actually have some social security.

What bike actually made in Italy is worse than any bike made in China? I'll wait.

Maybe the one in this video?

I have a De Rosa here to cut up!

@@LuescherTeknik Brilliant I really look forward to that. Mine is a 2013. R848. For it to be one of those would be a miracle. Great show something I look forward to

see the Time frame review on this channel

No the cracks are due to laminate wrinkles which present as cracks over time as the resin fails.

Sure, operator error can always be a problem, all I am saying is that threaded is not immune to these problems.

@@LuescherTeknik Nothing is idiot proof. I own a press-fit (BB30 of all things....) and it works great. (high end titanium frame) BUT, in the real world threaded BBs have far less issues than press fit. I owned a custom steel bike (maker's 3rd frame) in 1990 that had an macaroni shaped BB and required a Mavic one piece BB to solve the issue. The frame cracked in less than 100 miles, letting a guy build his third frame with ultra light steel tubing was not a good idea. Large bike manufactures are never going to make press fit well... it hurts margins too much. So it is better to go back to threaded and be done with it.

Yes, definitely. Or just buy a new one?

Paul Stephens, but what “new” carbon bikes apart from Time aren’t taking the piss these days?

But I thought CFRP bikes don't fatigue....

Lets find out, I have a couple of C60 frames. Stay tuned.

I have a 95 and a 2003 Colnago C40 and they are both fantastic bikes to ride and still look great so 26 years later I’m sure the C60 will be fine.

I had an SK Pininfarina in Israel Blue, lovely bike. Every ride was an occasion. Unfortunately got stolen and I ended up replacing it with a 2020 Trek Domane... faster and more comfortable but somehow not as special.

Same OEM factory as I use.

Thats a point and you could have years on it but it was impacted. The point here is this could be worse because the quality qc, parts and method was sub standard on that framecl at that time. Colnago aren't and weren't cheap frames so customers expect a standard thats why they pay the premium.

Have a mid 90s Raleigh Ti. Raced plenty and still going strong.

Ce serait mieux de ne pas savoir pour le cavalier.

Just two year old? This frame is well over 10 years old.

If you're descending at 100kmh in lycra and a foam lid on any bicycle with no million dollar contract I'd hope you have a good credit score with the man upstairs. I wouldn't worry about the frame its the tyres letting go or a car pulling out and 50 metres to pull up with lockup.

@@cup_and_cone could be 16 years old c50 can out in 2004

Any frame wears out regardless of the material. There have been studies that have shown that first aluminium bikes wear out, then steel and last carbon. My experience is, a stiff aluminium frame after 5 years it is just wobbly.

@@80robs92 I was thinking about frame protection. I have Invis, it's 12mil thick. This is custom cut where very little, except for the seams are exposed. I have it on my fork and crank as well. I've had some impact to the frame and it's not even scratched. I'm wondering if this kind of frame protection would absorb impacts that would cause delamination on a carbon frame. I would think so but I can't say for certain.

Pay 4 shit

*Wealthy UAE conglomerate posing as Italian* Oh, you thought you were buying a reputable brand, that's too bad. OWOWOWOW

Why? Their carbon bikes are way overrated

C’mon it’s a 15 years old bike. Problem is when we see this on nowadays bikes although the technology is mature

Top Reviewer That bike was a total mess inside from day one.

@@thedownunderverse must be why they have the most wins of any other manufacturer.

2020 1) you think the pro’s get frames off the same production line we do? 2) timing - they’ve had the benefit of being under some “special” riders due to marketing. Those riders would have won on any brand

Don't know about the C64, but why not get a steel one from Battaglin or Daccordi etc. if you want an Italian bike?

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter how long the frame remains functional or resists structural failure. What does matter is that those voids, stupid chain stay design, and adhesive fillers didn't appear in the frame due to use, but are engineering and production flaws. It might not bother you, but it does affect the frame performance and is unacceptable in products for this price.

@pafnucek. It’s surely more of a question of did it affect the frame performance for the owner for 12 or 13 years solid use and does he or she think the performance was acceptable for the price? What kind of life span should we expect from a seldom used carbon frame to one clocking up 7k mile# per year. I’m not arguing on behalf of Colnago and I don’t own one. I personally don’t link the chain stay design but I’m guessing the owner did. If had 12-13 solid use from the bike without incident I’d say that was a pretty good return on my investment. Cutting it up and seeing these flaws after my time with it wouldn’t change my opinion. We all don’t have the benefit of seeing inside a bike before we buy it and if it does everything it should do for 10 years and 50k miles I’d be satisfied. Just my opinion.

Hang in there Chris. The quiet reasonable voice is always shouted down. But we'll enjoy many miles of riding as these guys agonize over what to own!

@@slowerandolder The quiet reasonable voice says that you are fanboys making fashion purchases and justifying them with feeeeeelings.

@BYLLZY. This is a 2004 model and as such very unlikely to be a fake.

@m. A 2004 frame. What do you think?

Yes, it would be good to bust this myth, we just need to get some genuine team frames.

Ignorance is bliss, ALL carbon frames are hand-made (one at a time).

One conclusion is that there is product variability regardless of the brand, the purchase cost and the claims made.

If you want to buy any 16 year old bike, don't go carbon. Both because they don't last, most of it was nondescript china-ware even then, and a 16 year old Carbon bike is no good no matter who made it.

@@LuescherTeknik Are there variations within current production? (would you expect to see another Colnago of the same model and year look the same?)

No, it’s done 15 years and been in at least one crash according to Raoul. It’s had a lot of hard use and not failed, now it’s time for it to be retired. That’s all.

Con was the guy who layed up the carbon so it resembled Pumicestone.

C50 framesets were $4000+ USD from 2004-2010

@@FeintMotion up your carbs so your brain can ID sarcasm when it's in front of it 😁

@@durianriders How do you know what a brain is if you've not one 🤔🤔🤔

@@durianriders no, I'm serious.

true. It's around 4000 dollar over 15 years. That's around 260-270 dollar per year depreciation. Colnago is the only brand that depreciates so slowly.

There are no fake lugged frames. If you see them they're a monocoque with "lugs" applied to them after curing and then comolded in a secondary process.

No, it had a custom paint job some time ago.

@m is your hed broken m8 you can see the tube to lug interfaces lmao

@m In the video you're commenting on. Post timestamps of the lugs not being lugs lmao

@m Gonna need you to answer if your hed or brokin or not because what you posted is the opposite of what things are lol

Don't worry they are pretty tough. A number of voids, delaminations etc and it still lasted 15+ years.

Any paintcracks on there?

@@cccpkingu a couple of very small ones under the down tube/ head tube (at the lug)

​@carlhulston7157 how's she holding up these days?

How about not buying any carbon bike?

No Colnago builder is engaged in any of this. You can buy Chinese carbon bikes where the difference is the spray from most anyone. The difference is the markup.

Same as all the exy frames

I'll stick to my Chinese knock-off which come with a 5 year warranty.

The frame was repainted by the largest specialist bike painter in Australia. The seat stay junction was disbonded and there were cracks due to flaws in other areas of the frame. If the BB junction on a carbon frame is less stiff than white paint you are in serious trouble. The comments on the BB shell were to highlight some of the problems we have seen over the years with threaded shells. YMMV.

I have never seen a Colnago C50 or C40 with a ripped out bb but I’ll take your word for it. In the past month I’ve had 6 different customers come into my shop where they threaded the wrong pedal into the wrong crank. Perhaps I’ll do a video criticising all the crank and pedal manufacturers for making this too complicated. This frame was repainted, and multiple cracks appeared in the paint. I believe the most likely reason for this is due to a paint system failure rather than the frame letting go in all those different places simultaneously. The frame has clearly be well used for 15 years, suffered at least one major impact and been repainted. You are correct in saying It’s not Colnago’s finest work. It’s not even his work.

Colnago made in china today. ALL the frames at this year's TDF made in China. Even the Giants. Assembled in Tawian.

@@durianriders Colnago is mostly sold to Chimera Investments LLC. The last carbon bike they made themselves was the C60. Time makes the best carbon frames, in France.

@m Sure it's easy, but what's the point when we already know it can't be a fake.. 🤷‍♂️

@m oh, ffs. Seriously? Do you honestly think that there were Chinese copies of Colnagos being made 15 years ago? 🤦‍♂️

@m Stop being pedantic.

There are essentially a lot of fakes coming out of Colnago. Only the top model carbon model is made in Italy. The rest is your standard fare Chinesium.

@@cccpkingu So you're saying Colnago are making their own fakes. Interesting theory.. 😄

LOL

Makes sense there's shed loads of pumice in Italy.

Depends, steel can rust, titanium often cracks at the welds and aluminium fatigues. Well made carbon can last a long time.

For the C64, all the tubes are made at Giant, with final assembly and bonding at Colnago in italy. For the other models, V3RS, etc I would imagine are made by either Giant, Quest or Merida.

m Oh, I don’t know it 100%, it’s just something I’ve been told by a number of people that work in the bike industry, and I’ve never heard anyone disagree or have any other name brought up as to who else it may be. I do however know with 100% certainty that the tubes are produced in Asia outside of Colnago, as they had a press release from years ago that said as much.

@@RyonBeachner Carbon bikes are lighter, stiffer, stronger, more compliant, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just something I've been told by a number of people that work in the bike industry [ie. marketing folk etc]. Bullshit.

The Adventure Biker Please, show me on the doll where the bike industry touched you. It’s going to be okay.

@@RyonBeachner lol

When the seat stay lug is disbonded and moves in the frame, that is a lot more than paint prep. Just saying ;)

It's coming, stay tuned.

No, I am not argumenting, I am merely commenting on what I have seen over the years. The point is that operator error can damage all bottom bracket types.

@@LuescherTeknik In the end, you could say that certain designs that are confusing to mechanics, or are hard to manufacture, are bad designs. But principally, I feel that some designs easily get critique because the average human fails to understand how to handle / maintain / ... a certain design. This could apply to both threaded BB's in terms of how to mount the BB and maintain them, and press-fit and how to manufacture them within the right tolerances. So for me, no design flaws.

No it isn't. You can avoid being stupid. It is a lot harder to correct mistakes that are already there, and more work. Avoiding all the plethora of bike-makers that have shitty pressfit is a science, whereas turning threads the right way and using threadlocking is common sense.

@@cccpkingu Personally I am very much in favour of threaded (I have both pressfit and threaded fames). I only used pressfit as I know Luescher and Hambini like the concept from an engineering point of view, and I only wanted to illustrate how flawed it is to argument that threaded has disadvantages, while those disadvantages are human errors, rather than design errors, the same way that most pressfit errors are caused by manufacturers that could make it work better, but chose not to because they aren't very capable or because better tolerances and better QC eats up their profit.

Yes, you missed the fact that the seat stay had disbonded and the lugs had cracked due to manufacturing flaws.

No chance they don't care because that money from then has already bought executives their Ligurian villas and pensions. Today and tomorrow is the only bsd press they'll take issue with.

@R. Guardia Even.salaries of 500,000 for CEO would be possible. Cost of living back then.pre Euro was quite cheap.in Italy they lived well.that was the heyday of Italian frames.

@R. Guardia looking atvtheir frame costs the boss could sell 250 frames and make 500000. The markup us huge.

@R. Guardia 3 at most but of course the director is getting the cream. If they churn out only 30000 frames a year at $1000 to make including overheads they make a minimum of $1000 wholesale to shops $2000 on the top frame and fork. Easily 300-500k usd to the boss. They wouldn't be in it for less

With all respect i think you must using your bikes as stunt vehicles or just the most unlucky cyclist in history. Professionals don't ride a bike for one race they aren't sloshing in cash and most pay for the bikes albeit at discounted rates. Touve had a lit if carbon but surely you'd stop after two successive failures.

Give some model numbers, where it failed on the fork, what you were doing..

@@jaro6985 He's a troll working in a bespoke titanium fork business probably. I've never met anybody that has a fork fail unless theyve crashed or applied poor head tube fitting of stems.

How many carbon frames i a lot of? I would guess more than 3? Did you brake all of them? So they lasted 6 - 12 months? You had several surgeries due to fork failures? Lets sum up: You ride a carbon bike. Fork brakes. You have a surgery. 6 - 12 months after the surgery you jump on the carbon bike again to qualify for the next surgery. Rinse and repeat. At least 3 times. You are an obvious idiot. Or a liar.

Saying that Pro's only use their bikes for one race is an urban myth. I'm sure if they had a heavy crash on its first ride it would be replaced, though the odds of that happening would make it a very rare occasion. I've known of custom layups being done for specific riders, e.g. sprinters that need more rigidity etc., though other than that it's all the same product as retail.

Why? Arent you just saying im pretending to ride what would be am overpriced attempt at romance.

Because you believe the quality control of a knock off would be better than the quality control of a reputable company? With a knock off you have no idea what you are getting, it could be made of fibreglass.

@@kieron88ward but weve seen we don't know what we're getting buyingthose bikes and stuff like cêrvëĺõ s5 either. That's the fact everyone always forgets to point out.

@@888899999888 There is a world of difference between a reputable company that makes a frame with 'acceptable' manufacturing flaws to a company that makes a knock off. Nothing is ever made perfect but the former has a reputation to maintain and even if they have to do a recall they will replace it. Te later has no interest in reputation (because they've just stollen someone else's name and rep) and won't care if you just become a stain on the tarmack. There are good Chinese frames and then their are counterfeit frames they are not the same thing.

@@kieron88ward acceptable manufacturing flaws like S5 fork or this utter shit. Ok.

So? The frames that those victories came from could've fallen to pieces straight after the fact. It's been known for a long time in the bike industry that Colnago was more name than substance and therefore probably doesn't deserve the "respectful and responsible language" you're banging on about.

Karl Walters , 62 world championships won without substance...

@@pablogimeno464 Are you are saying we should turn a blind eye to what we've seen on this vid? This was a $4000+ frame when it came out.

Maybe you should listen to what I actually said, this particular frame was not his finest and did not win all of the races you listed, others may be better, this one is a lemon.

And you believe Eddy took the Hour on a Windsor?