I really don't get the hand hits thing. I know hand injuries are the most common in HEMA, hell I've had the worst hand injury in my club...but hand shots are important. Not even necessarily for the person performing the hand shots but for the person receiving the hand hit. It allows people to lead with their hand when striking, or do techniques like Zwerchs in stupid ways that would get your hands hit but don't count because of this ruleset. Regulating gloves is the best way to solve this problem not, taking away hand shots I agree. I think the thrust thing is kinda silly too. I just saw a rapier demo from Academy Duellio(I think that's how you spell it) and he could easily get a massive amount of penetration with just an arm and slight body lean...This again I feel may allow the other fighter to act sucidially. A thrust is very fucking dangerous and can go through a lightly clothed target with just an arm extension. How I count thrusts in my club and how Columbus does it as well, is any forward movement of the weapon that makes enough contact to "stick". You don't need for body power behind the thrust itself. I have a feeling that the one handed blows rule maybe to related to the Swordfish drama that happened last year with Novichenko. One handed strikes, while they can be dangerous,...I agree we just need to learn how'd deal with them as fighters because they were used historically and they are common. The biggest problem with the Novichenko thing was the sliding in on his knees into his opponent's crotch to avoid the afterblow timer,and bad judging more than just one handed strikes. One thing everyone should keep in mind is that it's a good thing we don't have a standardized ruleset for HEMA, this is just ONE tournament. They aren't changing the whole game everywhere, this is more a B&I thing than anything else... Also Kendo does have doubles!

Redman A I agree with pretty much everything you said. I’m curious to see what will happen at Swordfish 2018 if Novichenko comes back. A lot of the hits he threw at Swordfish were too light but counted for points anyway. If that’s what the CombatCon organizers fear, they should just teach their judges to differentiate between a quality and contact hit. I have a strong feeling a lot of fencers (especially the high level ones) will be expecting Novichenko to pull off his handful of tricks (icepick grip and knee slide) and slam him for it. Perhaps Novichenko will come back with a new toolbox of moves. Who knows?

Ian Hollier If it’s for a safety reason, then it makes sense why they’d disallow it. But I still think it’s a better idea to allow it and regulate leg protection as well as severity of hits (as they are already warning against excessive force). Most competitions, including the largest ones (Longpoint, Swordfish, Dutch Lions, all the Nordic ones, IGX, Tyrnhaw, Bratislavsky Fecht, as well as many more) allow them. As a matter of fact, I can’t think of a major HEMA competition hosted by someone else other than Blood and Iron that disallows these strikes. And while injuries do occur, the same can be said for HEMA in general. It is nowhere as dangerous as the mordschlag or other prohibited blows. Once again, it’s not something I don’t understand, it’s just something I don’t support. If it’s for a sport reason or “oh it’s cheap” then I don’t see why it’s disallowed. It’s shown in various treatises, and there’s no excuse for not countering them or failing to avoid them, as these treatises also provide counters. If it’s executed with the flat and/or without sufficient contact/force, then it shouldn’t be awarded any points.

Ian Hollier Who are you to talk? That's such a bullshit statement for a number of reasons. Do you live in a vacuum? The way you said that is filled with so much misplaced arrogance. You state this "fact" as if you are stating the obvious and anyone who dares disagree obviously doesn't know how to fight...which by extension you are saying people that both employ and allow Das Gayslan under their rulesets such as Matt Galas, Martin Fabian, Jake Norwood, the various organizers of Swordfish do not know what they are talking about. Do you REALLY wanna play that card...seriously. Are you going to pull Skall"s "feints don't work" card. Learn how to counter it instead of complaining about it. It's in the treatises and in the majority of tournaments, DEAL WITH IT! I don't really like Das Gayslan that much either, but I don't limit it in my club(unless someone doesn't have good leg protection) because if you don't know how to deal with it properly then you will get hit by it. One handed strikes to the legs that don't have good edge alignment or hit

Ian Hollier If you’re afraid of getting hurt maybe you shouldn’t be doing a COMBAT SPORT

Shutendoji Interesting. I looked up the relevant footage after reading your comment. That's a side of things I've rarely seen, to be honest. Thanks for your comment. :)

bokudensuduharagmail Agreed. To be clear, most of the presentations of HEMA, especially from channels such as this one, exclude negative occurrences like this, so I don't see them very often. It's good to know that kind of stuff happens, in general, and I'm not looking at that single incident as damning of an individual (though a social media post from Lee saying he'll retaliate 'eye for an eye' is another story).

bokudensuduharagmail I would imagine so after it gained public notice. I'd be plenty willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he said he changed his mind on that. Thanks for your replies, I appreciate it.

It's well known that Lee has a serious attitude problem, not just in relation to that particular incident

bokudensuduharagmail The other guy just landed regular after blows, no revenge hits there. Lee deserves every once of criticism he gets and more. A head instructor should not behave this way at all.

Mordhau to the face

Olordrin I quit entirely. I’m still learning how to use a longsword the way my ancestors did but I have no interest in this shit.

And how many NFL fans and players bemoan the targeting rules? This is like a HEMA version of touch football; if people want to see a more intense adaption they can find that or do it themselves.

That is the normal evolution. The more serious this becomes as a sport the more regulated it will become. That is how all martial arts water down over time.

They're turning a martial art into a sport ala Olympic fencing. I'd rather see a more MMA (UFC) progression not the reverse.

Its a tournament. There will be random fencers from many clubs. Its very important to unify the rules in terms of safety beacuse some people have a tendency of going too hard under stress. On daily trainings in your club you can have less limitations. You know what to expect and you have an unwritten list of "dick moves" that you just dont do.

Well luckily for us, HEMA doesn't have a standardized rule set and this is one of the reasons why.

Also Kendo does have doubles, they just don't happen very much

Gaysler?

It's not even just that, German systems have thrusts using only the arms too. It's a very strange system they've put together and it makes HEMA seem more sporty

I like Blood and Iron but they seem too insular at times. Like they have their interpretations and rules and then they present them as the default. Skall does the same thing, I think from his association with them. And yes, it's too sporty.

It's not that. HEMA doesn't have a standardized ruleset across the board specifically to keep people training to fight and training to win at a particular ruleset. This ruleset is particularly limiting though and the lack of hand shots will encourage bad technique in my opinion.

Redman A The red fighter is Lee Smit, head instructor of Blood and Iron. And yes, he has some issues.

It was joke...I definitely know who it is XD. That was the entire point of this comment

Redman A Ah, gotcha. Hard to tell over text lol

The handetrucken is an unterhau aimed at the bottom of the hands, not a lunging ober aimed at tapping a gauntlet four times the size of a human hand

You think a 1.5 kg, 120 cm steel bar can't break fingers? Come on, man. And yeah, hands are an essential target in fencing, but this tournament seems to prioritize safety in this regard. Not all tournaments do, but I think it's a valid choice by the organizers.

Well you CAN brake fingers, but to do so you'd need to do it on purpose, I mean I've taken plenty of blows to the hands and it never bothered me, don't like it just wear mitten gauntlets or whatever they're called

I raised an eyebrow at this too, but safety first and varying glove quality considered I can see why. Bear in mind the forearm and technically wrist (ouch) are valid.

I suppose that if there is possibility of lawsuit I'd see why'd they try to take preemptive measures even if the possibility is rather small

Google Is A Cruel Mistress surely part of the agreement you sign ensures you acknowledge the risk of injury, like any combat sport

Guessing not allowed

It's the anti-thesis of a combat martial art. They're going to water HEMA down to Olympic style fencing except with different 'weapons'. It should IMO progress towards a more gladiatorial martial form that we see in MMA (UFC). Including kicks, and hard throws. It could be some sort of insurance issue. Maybe that's why the 'safety sally' rules

Only thing i dont like is the "no shots to the hands" (safety first i know) and 1 point for the arms rule. I know it will work fine in terms of cleaner fencing and its great but it seems backwards martialy (eliminate arm= cant harm me back, eliminate leg = cant move well). I would suggest 1 point for arms and legs 2 for body etc.

I ENTIRELY agree about the "revenge shot" thing! It's a problem which should definitely be regulated. If anyone wants a great example why revenge shots are a bad thing look at this video kzfaq.info/get/bejne/adhoadNyt9_UhKM.htmlm25s The red fighter(I don't know his name maybe smit or smith something) throws a hissy fit and slams hit feder on the other guy's head a good 3 seconds after halt got called. He even does it again later. That person clearly has anger issues XD

For me its more of a risk issue, but basically I agree. Full armor, full contact.

I slogged through all ten minutes!

Blood and Iron HEMA No slog. Plenty interesting enough. :)

In order to be 100% accurate, you need to be in an actual fight. Personally, I think it's best to avoid that.

Ian Hollier I could see the long one-handed strike being hard to control, but what about a slice to the torso? One, could say that it may not do much but this depends on the location of the blade. A torso slide won’t go through someone’s ribs, but if the blade is lower than the ribs and slid across the abdomen than you could easily go pretty deep and deal a serious though likely not instantly lethal blow. This move is sometimes seen in some Japanese systems.

David Czege it's because it's hard to defend a low thrust from a high guard as as opposed to dealing with a strike from a high guard.

I think it comes down to the specifics. in the scenario they described the thrust starts AFTER the cut starts. So the person in high guard made an attack, and the person thrusting ignores said attack and thrusts anyway. The double occurs because the person defending had no regard for defense, and just tried to hit the attacker, causing the double. I don't think this is a scenario where the defender is in long point and the attacker just impales themselves.

If you make a thrust against an opponent in high guard, it is almost impossible for your opponent to fail to kill you. If your thrust fails, they will cut you; if your thrust succeeds, they will cut you. Contrary to what Cysixo says, if the person in high guard begins a cut first, and the opponent stabs them, that would be a regular double - they simply failed to defend. The distinction is that the thrust is made with the knowledge that the opponent cannot do anything except cause a double.

Connor Wiebe Except that the person in high guard lets in a thrust without even the intention of the parry, just to score a decisive afterblow. That is textbook suicidal. When you attack, you compel your opponent to "defend or die". Disregarding a hit and simply just striking back is bad fencing, I believe we can agree on that. In case of a double, I believe they wanted to penalize the guy in low stance, as "it is obvious" that from the high stance, a descending cut will come. However it's equally obvious that from a low stance, like Pflug, a straight thrust will come (which the person in high guard casually dismissed). I still don't understand why the guy with the low stance gets penalized more.

Snake Over Then change your guard, for foxsakes :D

Instructions unclear. Perhaps if someone more competent, like the head instructor of Blood and Iron Lee Smith would explain that in the video, I could understand.

Lee Smith, the master of unwarranted revenge strikes

Ondřej H Oooooof

bokudensuduharagmail Pretty sure the other dude started the attacks before the halt (it can be hard to pull back a cut), and actually held up his hands when he accidentally hit Lee’s mask, making them accidental afterblows and not revenge strikes. Mitchell’s afterblows fell within milliseconds after the halt. Lee’s hits were a lot harder. I’ve yet to see a personal apology from Lee himself, so if you’ve seen something similar please post the link.

bokudensuduharagmail I think he deleted this, but this is part of what made everybody mad in the first place: imgur.com/KEvkHDs I’ve no problem and encourage B&I for expressing disdain for this kind of stuff in their rulesets, but a lack of a personal apology from Lee himself makes this seem fishy and makes you wonder if he’s actually changed

To encourage good blade play instead of rewarding "buffalo" types who just rush in and shank with the dagger.

If you're talking about punching out with the crossguard, it wouldn't be overly effective, at least as compared to a pommel strike where the center of balance is in line with the force of the strike. Probably not terribly safe if you did get a good strike, what with the smaller striking surface. If you're talking about Murder Strokes, good lord no. Not safe at all. You're essentially turning the sword into a pseudo mace with a small striking surface. That way lies broken bones and cracked skulls.

Pommel is rather large and generally flat/rounded, while quillon-tips are small and have at least one pointy ending. At a hit, they basically act as a short icepick, even if you use standard grip (and a longer icepick/warhammer if you apply the mordhau-grip...) Not good, man, not good...

You still need hard elbow protection, and no, we're not using padded sticks. Boffers are for LARP.

Odd train of thought. Elbow protection and real sticks... Soft stick with no elbow protection. Sounds like "Its not 6 eggs its half a dozen" Neither one is LARPing is my point.

Snake Over not sure for this tournament, but in ours we have identical pommel rules, and the guard itself is explicitly disallowed for strikes.

Yes. It's hopelessly unsafe.

A crossguard could puncture the mesh on even a 3-weapons rated mask.

*Whitty Retort*

*Comment Supporting One Side or the Other*

*Barely veiled trolling*

TRIES TO SETTLE BOTH SIDES WITH LOGIC

*MEME RELATED TO THROWING POMMELS*

CALM DOWN. There's a reason why HEMA doesn't have standardized ruleset, this is the ruleset for ONE tournament...B&I has always done things like this. Also HEMA Longsword has always been somewhat similar to Kendo, this ruleset doesn't make it closer.

THIS IS ONE RULESET, THEY DON'T SPEAK FOR THE GREATER HEMA COMMUNITY. Blood and Iron are not the creators of HEMA and they aren't updating and implementing a patch for HEMA that will instantly nerf and change every HEMA ruleset. The way people are talking about this is...well INSANE. Longpoint is doing the complete opposite of the Combat Con rules for next year. This is one of the reasons not having a standardized ruleset is a good thing. In something like Fencing,if the IFF decided to change the rules, the rules are changed...Combat Con's ruleset ONLY applies to Combat Con and other B&I events probably...they aren't changing ALL of HEMA rulesets.