Sabrina Kall Except they could choose to buy a non-custom cake or go to a different store. They are definitely taking this far beyond what I would if I were rejected by a religious baker for a wedding cake. Give him bad reviews and take your money elsewhere. Don't force him to bake you a cake. That's just spiteful.

Sabrina Kall being gay may not be a choice but getting married is a choice. And they chose to get married. I have no objection to gay marriage, but if the baker does, and yet he is still forced to make something celebrating gay marriage, THAT would be wrong, no? Here's a similar argument from another angle. Say there's a guy who lives off the grid with his family and hunts for food. His wife or husband or whoever goes to a bakery and asks the baker to bake a cake. Now this baker is an animal lover, and knows this family hunts for food, but he has still served them cakes before for other occasions like birthdays. However the spouse goes in this time and asks for a cake that congratulates this hunter on a terrific hunt and a good haul. Can the baker refuse to make this cake on the grounds that the message conveyed by his art would be to celebrate something he personally doesn't agree with celebrating? Can he claim that being forced to make art sharing a message that conflicts with his personal beliefs is a violation of his free speech? I'm not saying that the baker in this court case had served gay couples other types of cakes before, but that is his claim. His claim is that it is the occasion of gay marriage he refused to make a cake fore, not that he refused to make a cake for gay people in general

Also for the record, I know what dressed up bigotry looks like, and this guy's views are bigoted, but his claim is that he is not discriminating in his clientele, and the way he's presented his argument, he's not necessarily in the wrong under the law. It definitely shouldn't have gone all the way to the courts, but it's way more difficult of a call than the black and white case you're claiming it is. I think this sort of thing is best sorted out in a community by just not going to this baker if you don't support what he's doing, not forcing him to do something he doesn't want to do

Your comment actually made me stop and think, later resulting in a previous comment, i posted, to be deleted. Thank you.

@AuditClerk wow, well said. I totally agreed. I think the baker has his own right and belief. This shouldnt bring to supreme court or even worth to argue. But if look at the couple side, they must be offended and want to fight for their right too. But still, this should not worth to waste other people times for this argument. Some may not agreed but this is just my thought...

So if he decides not to serve Blacks or Asians???

@@nathanielstrange4086 That's not the same thing 🙄 and neither is comparable.

Nathan .S then they are racist but still their choice.

It could be my job, but no one could force me. I could be a lawyer, but no one can force me to take a case defending a criminal for example. It may not be correct from some point of views, but he has the right to choose and we shouldn't interfere. Besides that, what's the problem in searching for another baker ?

Sismeo As an Asian I would go where they serve Asians. Why would I force a person to give his service knowing he doesn't like me?

gregory how are they ruining his life ?

You're right, old white men who are bigoted asshles should be protected at all costs

Having a belief about a certain lifestyle doesn't make you bigoted. The man has principle, there is nothing about this man that spews hate towards homosexuals. They are ruining his life by trying to force him to make something that goes against his religious beliefs. The last time I checked that wasn't the meaning of freedom.

David Jacobs you're like the racist lawmakers who quoted the bible and used paternalism to justify the Jim crow laws after the abolishment of slavery, only you're probably stupider because you actually believe what you're saying. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that you're a white American male - who has learned nothing from history. Separate but equal!

gregory that reasoning could be used to justify segregation

space alien me too my alien friend me too. 🎂

no im craving a world america didnt stop this madness before it got out of hand

Red velvet?

So where does your argument end? Should they be refused hotel accommodation, a meal in a restaurant, buying clothes from clothes store or even bread and milk from a supermarket because of the owners religious belief? Then of course if a religion (i.e. Mormon) feels it made a mistake by accepting black people in the 1970's and go back to saying they are sub human - should establishments then have the right to refuse black people because of their religious beliefs - in fact how would you feel if your mother was refused service by a Muslim because she is a women??? Prejudice is prejudice, you cant pick and choose what suits you without acknowledging what it means to the person being persecuted.

Starting with an insult is indeed always the best way to make an intellectual argument. As it is far from clear what you are actually saying I will have to assume. The ONLY rights I argue for are equality - nothing more and if that makes me a pathetic leftist I wear the badge with pride. Your argument is that you have more rights over somebody else because of religion. Point one I am an atheist and your religion (and anybody else religion) has no bearing on my life whatsoever. Point two, as all religions are different the notion that everybody else must curtail to a certain persons individual religion is ridiculous and totally unworkable - as many religions contradict each other. Point three, whatever your religion you must still adhere to the laws of the land, these laws change as society changes - it's just very sad that it takes religion so much longer to change - however, it does! Small minded stupidity such as yours just makes it take a whole lot longer to get with the program.

We have the freedom to be prejudice - hahahaha. You also have the freedom to be deeply stupid - use your freedom wisely sir. You can indeed be homophobic and you can also be sexist and racist or indeed a total sociopath - however you must obey the law and recognise that in a democracy you live by the majority. If homosexuality is illegal then a baker can refuse to bake a cake - yet in your democracy it is 100% legal and any business that refuses to acknowledge that and treat its gay clients the same as its straight clients should not exist.

Lots of words - very little content! If you are so sure of your argument why get personal. why be rude and attack the messenger rather than consider the message. I think this says far more about your views then what you have written. I have covered most of the points you raise, yet you chose to ignore what I have said - read my previous comments. I love it when people who have never suffered the prejudice in question tell us that have how we should feel, you can support homophobia (because no matter how you wrap it up that is what this is), but you can't then claim not to be homophobic. This gay couple were personally victimised in a society where they are legal and should be treated EXACTLY the same as everybody else - no matter what argument you have presented (very badly) you have not addressed that core point. Just saying the tradesperson has rights that trump the victim's is not an argument it is at best just a personal opinion - and your insistence of presenting it as fact just makes you as ignorant and prejudice as the baker.

and btw - if religion was not involved this situation would not exist, so of course it's a religion issue. If the baker refused for any other reason would you still support them?

I totally agree with you

DBR Liamg but it's his shop. He can serve who ever he wants to serve . It's his choice . If they want a cake they could just go to another baker that will do it for them

DBR Liamg Oh, good. Everybody, the case doesn't have to go the Supreme Court anymore, the High Courts with their mythical "expertise in law" were wrong, DBR Liam just solved the case in this comment. How about you let the actual judges decide on this issue instead of spreading your bullshit arguments like a fucking moron? Would be much appreciated. Cheers.

Yeah.. lesbian myself and I'm really unsure what to say. I'm torn down the middle

Zuheb Mukhtar exactly. The problem with most liberals is that they are to call someone a bigot. This man said he does not refuse service to the gay community, hr just refused to cater to a very specific event. The kkk joke is another valid way to see this. If the baker was black and the kkk asked him to cater to one of there events, it would be reasonable for him to want to decline, and that does not mean he is refusing to service white people as a whole or even a kkk member, just not service an event he does want to collaborate for. Yes, exclusivity sucks, it makes people feel left out or rejected, but this baker is a free man- in his right to decline any job.

Who said they didn't? If a school refuse to take in your daughter because she's not girly enough, you still can choose another school. That doesn't mean you shouldn't drag their ass to a court of law.

It's about principle, though. This has happened more than once, so going to another bakery doesn't solve the overall problem.

+Yousef Jebai It's a bit of a problem, though, if multiple bakeries refused them the service and they just decided to sue one of them. Unless there's a pact between the local bakery owners to not bake for gay weddings, one of them can't very well be held accountable for the refusal of the others. I do still think that he should have just baked the damn cake, though. He's a baker, that's his job and so long as he gets paid, what's the harm. But that doesn't mean that he should be the only one to be made an example of when he is just one of many.

And if that other baker also decides not to bake them a cake? And the next one, and the next and so on... Just bake them a damn wedding cake. its your job, its what you are advertising, its what you sell. Why be a dick about it. You can bake em a cake and still be against gay marriage. If you have to be an ignorant bigot then at least be professional. What if it was a white and a black person getting denied a wedding cake because the baker does not believe in mixed race marriage or whatever? A midget and a tall person, asians, two special needs persons, see where I'm getting at? What if YOU were denied tickets to see your favourite band or something because, lets say, the venue owner or the band does not agree with your lifestyle. Or if you weren't allowed inside the supermarket near you because the manager does not allow people who wares shirts with far left political images on them. Bake, the, damn, cake I say!

And Rosa Parks could've just sat in the back of the bus From the outside those seem like small, irrelevant issues, but symptoms of something worse, segregation and in the cake thing, the right of equal treatment

@musicanimal2379 - "He wasnt aggressive or even hateful towards the couple." He was the moment he denied them normal service just because of the way they were born. There is no excuse for that. It would be the same as denying service to women or to white males claiming your 'beliefs' won't let you.

@Sabrina Kall dumbest comparison ever

@@maryhunter6389 Is it normal service if he's being asked to make specific customizations that he does not normally make?

If you agree with him, then he should not open a PUBLIC shop. Once you open a PUBLIC shop, you have the obligation to service any customer.

@@sismeo1 It's not a public shop. It's a private business, thus he has a right to refuse service to anyone he wants to.

But... yes he should. The law forbids discrimination, he cannot deny services to someone just because they're gay. It's like a bank refusing bank account to black people, or a music store that only sells to bald people.

Contevent are you an idiot? Employees are the ones who cant discriminate. He is an owner of a buisness and he has right to refuse service.

Jan Michael Kevin Garcia Not on my country, imbecile

Contevent imbecile wow. So in your country if I opened a metal shop and I make swords and medieval tools for HEMA a 6 yr old can come in and buy my stuff and I cant do anything about it?. If an 8 yr comes in and buys a jet fuel. Or let's make it even simpler I can sell contest grade fireworks program and peripherals to masked people or to 13 yr olds as long as they have the money?.

Contevent if that's how it is in your country then that's really irresponsible of your lawmakers.

Yes

It's that kind of bullshit logic that normalizes discrimination. They were denied service for being homossexual, changing the baker doesn't change the the fact that they were discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation. How would the right wing react if a syrian refugee baker refused to bake a wedding cake for a white christian male!?

Hey, all I'm saying that it's a complicated issue. Do you think a baker could, for instance, deny a neo-nazi to make a cake for them with a swastika? That would also be a discrimination, but nobody would honestly give a fuck. So do you think the government should intervene and order the baker to cook a nazi-swastika cake? Or would that be "wrong". This christian guy has his values. And the point is - if they felt insulted, they should have went to another baker. If I was denied something because of my sexuality, I would think "what a fucking douche" and go buy the cake somewhere else. It's his business, he'll lose money by not selling his product. Going to the news is "ok" I guess because I think it's ok to point out the issue, but to go to fucking court with this shit is just idiotic...... My attitude is that the guy is an asshole, and that the gay couple should just go and buy the cake somewhere else instead of going to the court.

Of course they could deny a Nazi, that's an ideological group, it's not a civil rights issue. Are you seriously claiming a Nazi party and a (gay) wedding party are bound to the same moral standards? NO, it wouldn't be discrimination, it's perfectly ok not to support an institution, because it's about IDEOLOGY, NOT about gender/sexuality/race. Nobody gives a shit about the values of the "christian guy". If they directly interfere with someone's civil rights, the yes, the baker is bound not to deny the service he offers. Good for you that you would just change bakers, and good for them that they they actually decided to do something about the discrimination they suffered. This is the kind of "hidden" discrimination that endures everytime someone like you just chooses to ignore it. THIS is the kind of discrimination the right wing ignores when they claim that discrimination is over. And this couple has more balls than you will ever have.

So, if you think that Nazis are an ideological group, so it's ok to not give them cake because they are not bound by the same moral standards, I must conclude that you also think that not serving a cake to a muslim or a christian would also be acceptable. Right? Because it's an ideological group also in a sense, it's not about gender / sexuality / race.

No, that conclusion doesn't follow. First of all, let's be clear: nazi's are a hate group. They objectively defend the end of civil rights to minorities and defend the existence of superior races. The swastika is a symbol connected to millions of prejudice based deaths. None of your comparisons are even close to the moral standards of a nazi group. So yes, it's perfectly acceptable to deny service to such an extreme ideology. Muslims and christians are not ideologies. Religion is not politics. Sure, they meddle too many times, but that's not inherent to the definition of religion. If the reason you are not providing service is the religion of someone, that goes against their civil right of having religious freedom. Actually, we could go out of bounds a bit: could a pro life baker refuse service to a pro abortion event? Could an anti marijuana baker not provide a cake to a Bob Marley tribute party? Could a Megadeth purist baker deny service to a disco clube on their Metallica night? I would say... yes! It would be stupid, sure, but yes, there's no civil right violation in any of these cases.

Stephen Hodgson the left dont care if people lose their jobs, as long as they can virtue signal.

Indeed. I've listened to the NY Time's daily podcast the other day and they exposed the problem in clearer and more objective terms. I kind of expected more from Trevor

You seem to be making an assumption that the plaintiffs are from the left. There are plenty of cases of actions been taken against people from all sides of the political spectrum. The problem is not one of the left but rather one of people believing that their rights are more important than somebody else's. The people who encourage that are not politicians but rather lawyers. Pick up any telephone directory in the US and there are page after page of lawyers seeking business. Go to any other country in the developed world and you find a few. With the exception of the UK the rest of the world does not have this culture of sue if you perceive that somebody has offended you or put you at risk. To have to print on a packet of nuts that 'this product may contain nuts' shows how far the problem has come. There is a British comedian who tells the joke "I've just come back from America where I really got into the culture. I went into a store and the man behind the counter said have a nice day. I didn't so I sued him." Most countries in Europe have the Roman system of justice where your case is heard by a committee of judges and cases like this don't get close to trial they are kicked out well before that. Lawyers know that if they get a case before a jury that they can make each and every member of the jury to put themselves in the place of the plaintiff and that they will win. That is why so many defendants settle out of court they are not willing to take the risk.

Shweta A it appears that like many others you seem to believe that some peoples rights are more important than others. Did all his employees put cash or effort into his business when he was first starting out? did they risk anything at all in the early days? Did the gay couple make any contribution to his success? I think you'll find the answer to all these questions are no. America had a Civil War to help guarantee peoples rights. Well those rights should include the rights of the shop owner. According to you he is just a dick head and has no rights to his beliefs if they conflict with the rights of somebody you believe in. Are there no other cake making shops in the area where the gay couple live? I think you'll find the answer to that is yes. So why couldn't they accept the mans beliefs and rights and go elsewhere? or are they going out of their way to impose their rights on somebody else which stinks just like your opinion of hypocrisy. He has made a decision based on his beliefs that if he has to make wedding cakes for all then he will make wedding cakes for none. As I said at the beginning you seem to be for your own rights and those you agree with but don't want to respect the rights of others because they are different to yours.

Ever heard of The Mayflower and The Pilgrims? They left the UK because they were holding fast to their beliefs and wouldn't compromise them regardless of what society around them said. No doubt you would regard then as selfish because they were doing exactly the same thing. Without their stand for their Christian beliefs America would be a very different place today. Second he did not refuse to serve them he just wouldn't make them a cake just like he wouldn't make cakes for anybody else that contradicted his beliefs on marriage. Finally you're a hypocrite if you believe the final point in your opinion it is OK for the gay couple to follow their beliefs even though they contradict the beliefs of somebody else. As I have already said there are other shops that make wedding cakes just why did they insist on this one shop? There are a growing number of instances where members of the LGBT are asking for services from very specific members of the Christian community and then taking them to court when they are turned away, I wonder why this is because it seems to be very targeted. This is happening not only in the USA but around the world. There was a case in the UK where a Christian couple who ran a bed & breakfast establishment had a clear policy that they would not accept reservations from any couples that were not married. A unmarried Gay couple decided to book a room and then were offended when they were turned away for not been married and claimed it was because they were gay. The couple presented evidence in court to prove they had turned away heterosexual couples for the same reason but still lost their case and were put out of business due to legal fees and the fine imposed.

Exactly

That’s the same argument a racist would use

I agree with you

@@eyosiasabiot7727 that is just a dumb comparison

@@praxym9293 why

Rosa Parks should have just rode on a different bus, would have been so much better for everybody... ...except those being discriminated against.

@Brutus Tan - Your equivalence is wrong. Being a Neo Nazi is a choice, being gay is not. Would you be okay with a baker refusing to bake cakes for white males?

+Brutus Tan Neo Nazis aren't a protected class, dipshit. Get an education. Also look up the definition of "totalitarian" while you're at it.

public transport service (or any public service) is different than a private business...

that uptight idiot should just grow up. religious beliefs my ass. I'm sure he'd do a pedocake for Christian Warrior Roy Moore.

looks like they would rather force the baker into it, and they would rather be poisoned on their wedding than find another baker.

Hylda JJKPJM yeah I know,but it isn't about the cake anymore. It's about refusing service for something they have no control over

Hylda JJKPJM false, it's no longer legal and has never been morally right to segregate or put up sign saying no gays or no blacks allowed. No barbershop can put up signs saying no jews. He's a religious homophobe who is denying them because they are gay. Not because of other reasons that would be acceptable to deny.

Because if discrimination is legal, then there's no guarantee there are thousands of other options for those affected. What if you're in a small town and the only baker refuses service?

I understand all the view points and I agree that it is a hate crime and that it is pure descrimination. Thats a fact. BUT we have to acxept the fact that it is an ambiguous issue. Personal beliefs are just that personal, subjective. And just as the gay couple felt discriminated against for thei sexual orientation. The baker saw an infringment to his belief. It's like if a suuuuper catholic couple demanded a supppper religious cake from an atheist baker, the baker could refuse based on his own beliefs and no one would have a say in it. We tend to impose idealist ideas on people and it just furthers the gap and hinders mutual understanding. Because forcing someone to understand is never the right way to do it. And this supreme court ruling is just that.

Hylda JJKPJM the baker took it to the Supreme Court, not the gay couple because in Colorado, it was found to be discriminatory.

but they're harming the couple that went into the store which said I make marriage cakes, asked for a marriage caked, bakers said they're gay and went nope

Daniel Reisbeck How was he harming the couple? No homophobic language was apparently used. He basically said, "You do you. I just don't want to help you." The couple could buy a wedding cake from any other store and they were offered free ones after the incident.

KPOPFANBOYUK The problem with this case is, if we force a religious person to make a wedding cake for a gay couple, we'd also have to force black people and gay people (and any decent person) to make cakes with racist/homophobic/discriminatory messages. A black person would be forced to serve a member of the KKK. A Hilary supporter (or a Trump non-supporter) could have been forced to make Trump's inauguration cake. Is that what should happen? You kinda described the reason I support the baker on this one, despite being an atheist and a staunch gay-rights supporter. The couple didn't point at a cake and ask for it. The baker says he'll be more than happy to serve to men who have sex with other men, adulterers, and everyone else, etc. He's not refusing to serve them because they've sinned or are wrong according to the Bible. It's about the message that a wedding cake conveys - that a man can marry another man - and he doesn't agree with that message. Sure, it's moronic, but it's his prerogative. A similar analogy would be him serving women who've had pre-marital sex, but refusing to bake a cake that reads "pre-marital sex is okay" (provided he believes pre-marital sex is wrong). Another scenario would be someone who doesn't believe Trump should be President is more than happy to bake Trump a cake, just not an inauguration cake. Basically, he just doesn't want to create something with a message he doesn't agree with. And if we force him to do it, we'd have to force everyone to do it.

Owned

@Harika Mohan - 1. the couple are trying to enforce the law, not create a new one - the anti-gay hate group that is pushing this case (ADF) to the supreme court is the one trying to change the law . 2. do you seriously think your examples are remotely comparable? Do you seriously think it's not possible to tell the difference between someone discriminating against a protected group, and someone who's trying to sell hateful or derogatory messages? So I say again - THE COUPLE IS NOT TRYING TO CHANGE THE LAW. You're creating some weird vision of the legal system in your head that does not remotely map to reality, go do some reading on this from anywhere that's not obviously a christian right bigot, it's about as clearcut a case as you can get.

@why not ? well! is being black against faith of anybody? your argument is not valid and you should rethink the case correctly!

Well, it's a difficult issue. Refusing service to somebody because they're homosexual may sound homophobic, but legally it's the same thing as refusing service to somebody because they're (just so give an example) a holocaust denier. It's tricky to create law that protects people from discrimination while at the same time not forcing shopkeepers to do business with people they don't want to do business with.

DexM47 It doesn't matter, they can *choose* to deny service. They're a private business, not public transportation.

You also choose to have a wedding cake and you choose to go a particular bakery. Obviously you don't choose being gay, but there were some more, entirely voluntary choices to be made before you end up before the supreme court. I think the worst thing about this is, and I don't think anyone's brought that up so far, if he just lied to every gay couple and said: "Sorry, very busy right now", probably it wouldn't even be noticed. This guy is choosing to tell the truth instead of lying and he's being punished for it.

I agree. I was just pointing out the fact that his holocaust denier example was not exactly judicious.

+DexM47 - You're right, there is a big difference, and just in case you got the impression I was the kind of person who believes homosexuality is a choice, I'd like to clarify that I don't. The thing with this whole issue is that this takes place in the private sector, and once you start making laws that force people to serve customers they don't want to serve (whether that be for good reasons or, as in this case, awful ones), that does potentially open a bit of a Pandora's Box. I'm not one to believe in slippery slope arguments, but all the same, if there is to be some sort of legislation on this issue, it'll need to be véry carefully crafted.

"as long as it's not discrimination". How is telling gay people that you don't want to do business with them because they are gay not discriminatory?

MrAerohank he did not refuse them service, he had said that he would not make a cake that features 2 people of the same gender but he would still make the cake

Firelce Anims It's a bit of a grey area isn't it? I mean, not allowing black people in the front of the bus is also technically not refusing them service because they can still sit in the back; yet that seems widely discriminatory.

MrAerohank That we can agree on but what should be mentioned is that in the video the couple had said "He turned us away for who we we're not what we wanted" so they seem to be in the wrong, but on a another note has this case been closed yet?

Spot on!

Actually you can, just not in this case because the baker argued and the Supreme Court agreed that his cakes were works of art.

YOU LIVE IN A COUNTRY. NOT IN A ISLAND WITH NO LAW.

For reaaal

It's not, at least not if your country abides by the declaration of human rights, which forbids all arbitrary discrimination, including those based on religion.

So you're ok with forcing a devout Christian to serve gay people stupid wedding cake because that's what the law dictates? RESPECT Homosexuality but FUCK religion. Right?

Contevent Well, that's Bullshit. Every Shopowner has the right to chose who he serves and who not. That has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination. If I follow your logic Nightclubs are not allowed to have a dresscode, cause it's discrimination of bad dressed people.

this is why secular laws will not work on multi culturalism you can't give one law on this issues so to accommodate both of them you give them their own places where they can do what ever they want that is the best way to accommodate them.

What a stupid argument. Of course it has to do with discrimination if it goes against the client's civil rights. The dress code of a night club has nothing to do with someone's civil rights...

Yeah

Stand with a bigot? Ok must be embarrassing for you🤣🤣🤣

They already felt like outcasts. How will they feel confortable going to another bakery knowing that this might happen again? Like imagine you're a Catholic and you wanted a custom cake symbolizing that for any Catholic church potluck but the bakery owner is Mormon and they don't feel comfortable with the idea of Catholics, how will you recover from that? What if another bakery owner is Protestant and they don't feel comfortable either?

@@ranjanbiswas3233 He said he would make them any type of cake, just not a wedding cake.

1st and 2nd statement, false analogy. 3rd statement, there's nothing wrong with not touching men whom he/she is not married to because of his/her beliefs.

red handed?

Try a pancake then people would mistake it for a UFO

😆😆😆

yes you can decide what you sell but whatever you sell you have to sell to everyone. its different

niall That’s also true, didn’t think like that! Thanks.

@@inspect112 not

What? On what grounds can you deny medication? That is an essential service.

usaid alfatih Sadly enough, it got that bad because he was honest. He could have said "we have so much work, we can't make it. Sorry" From what I gather he didn't throw slurs at them or anything. He just calmly told them his reasons. Bet he would have said the same to a guy asking for a "Polyamory is my jam" or a "Flying spaghetti monster" cake.

im still trying to figure out why those idiots didnt just go to a different bakery

He doesn't make Halloween or adult themed cakes either

tritonflame For the same reason black people didn't just went to another bus.

Because you don't have the right to refuse service to anyone. Civil Rights Act, people.

They... did discriminate against you. Sure, it isn't worth the trouble to sue, but they did discriminate against you.

First time I hear that Jews won't let non-Jews into a Jewish restaurant! What was the name of the restaurant?

So if a business refuses to serve black people that’d be fine with you?

YOU LIVE IN A COUNTRY. NOT IN A ISLAND WITH NO LAW.

Mariyah Ali I think I need to bake one now!

I had one for my birthday this year. Not a favorite flavor!

Isn’t red velvet cake just chocolate cake with red food coloring added?

I know this is an old comment, but yeah. Pretty much. After working in a bakery for 6 months, I've learned the only real differences are that some red velvet cakes are made with beet juice (helps with colour and moisture, while barely changing flavour), and that red velvet is likely to be paired with a cream cheese frosting while chocolate is not. I mean, cream cheese and chocolate gross? Cream cheese and red velvet? Amazing. And yet no real difference in actual cake composition.

You mean chocolate cake?

well you didn't see the full image! they're harming him and his religious values? if religion doesn't matter for them it does for him! that's called double standards and tyranny!

Evilsamar male cant be the victim right? cos patriarchy this is the bullshit ans u will get from the regressive feminists

WTF?!? That's so sexist

uhh I don't recall anyone suggesting this to be a hate crime.. and it's quite possible that charging men specifically more money than women is a violation of the law.... but it wouldn't be a hate crime... I'm not sure what you think hate crimes are if that counts.

well to be fair ladies night is a win-win for men and woman.

Yeah, if there is, someone should sue

Frostdraga they could have bought a normal cake or asked for a normal one, the baker just didnt want to make a gay cake. O and the baker is the one that filed a complaint

He is a religious nutter who refuses to accept that we are living in modern times, not the fucking dark ages.

Occam ́s Chainsaw Christianity has been around for thousands of years whereas same sex marriage is relatively new in comparison. If this law abiding, tax paying citizen refuses to serve them (using his own time) then i say instead of running to the media to earn some sympathy points they should just go to another baker instead of bitching about it

What was "gay" about this particular cake? Did they want it decorated with lips and penises? If it was just pick round or square, how many layers, frosting or fondant, ect, then there's nothing "gay" about it. That's just selecting cake options from the baker's book. Like wall art tattoos. If they wanted the cake to read "Fuck you" then that is not a rosettes or ribbons kind of option and I understand the refusal. I'd never take food from someone who hates me though... no matter what the courts rule.

@@occamschainsaw6455 if that's how you see it

Note to you, plenty of those exists.

😂😂😂

Question: My brother is gay, but I'm not; would it be okay for me to buy a wedding cake for him at your bakery?

GrahamChapman. Maybe, the baker decides.

well the first step was to try to help ur brother through his rough time. u messed up

Rabbit TeaPot I thought that too. Would I really wanna eat a cake somebody was forced to make for me? And having that thing, created by a guy stating he's against gay marriage on your wedding party as a sign of your eternal love?

Sabrina Kall I get what you mean. But he would serve them, as he stated, as regular customers. He just does not want to specifically create something he doesn't want to. If you ask a feminist sculptor to do a statue of Trump or Bill Cosby, should she or he be able to refuse? I think they should be.

Exactly Schatten

I heard about it in a lecture, didn't hear about the second half though 🤔

If I force someone to bake me a cake against his will, I definitely wouldn't dare eating it.

there is hope

7rob27 😂

@@stephoncox5778 not

@Brutus Tan - Can you kindly stop spamming all threats with your wrong equivalence? Thank you.

1st amendment is more powerful than that stupid shit u said

it says it right there, race, color, religion or national origin, it doesnt says anything about sexual orientation.

No, some gay people are born that way. Tons of others make the choice, you learn, you get informed instead of attacking people without knowledge.

this is youtube, nobody really into reading ur long winded paragraphs. sumurise

Try that same argument but sub cake man with fire fighter.

Trish N they don't want anything from him anymore, they just want to sue him for blatant discrimination

Brutus Tan why start attacking personally?

apparently his cake was so yummy they cant find another baker.

nah not really, imagine that with skin colour instead of sexuality

“All the rights in the world”?? You mean the normal human rights that everybody has?

This case is not so clear cut and the law is not so clear cut in the UK. For example, doctors who do not believe in abortion for religious or personal reason are not legally compelled to do them, they just have to refer the patient onwards. Maybe they could have the same law in America. Baker could refer to another baker.

The defense the baker is using is just that: a defense, and it was probably his lawyer that came up with it. As for it being art, that is a ridiculous argument in this specific case, because what he'd be making is exactly the same thing as for a straight wedding. I crochet, and every item is one-of-a-kind. Sometimes I have pre-made items sold to anyone that walks into the store, and sometimes I make an item for a specific person, not unlike this bakery. However, if I refuse to make, say, white shawls for a wedding because the couple wearing them are lesbian, that's discrimination. If I refuse to make them shawls because I don't make shawls at all, that's a different thing. But I do make shawls, and he does make wedding cakes. The items are the same as what we'd make for a straight couple.

Except it's a custom cake, so presumably, it would have to specifically represent these two people and these two men? I definitely agree it's something the lawyer came up with and a justification for this bigotry, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's not right, from a freedom of speech POV. Ultimately, the cake shop is the baker's property. He's not an employee of the state. And yes, we may laugh at the idea of cake being art, but I've seen cakes that I found very creative and interesting that truly add to the spirit of an occasion, so I'm not inclined to dismiss it so easily. Like I said, as an author, I'm very divided on this topic, because there truly is nothing worse than to have someone attack your creative spirit and it has happened to me in the past. I write gay romance and I cannot tell you how many times I've had people tell me it's wrong etc. etc. because it's against their religion, morals etc. It may not be the same thing, but is it really right of us to force this man to create something he doesn't want to create?

I do believe that a store should not be allowed to withhold merchandise from people because of their sexual orientation, race, gender or religion. Being an author and being a baker are two very different things, even if you consider the cakes art (and I don't dismiss that part). He doesn't agree with gay people getting married, and that's why he won't do it. What if he didn't agree with black people getting married? Or Jews getting married? It would be the same thing, and I don't believe he should be able to withhold his services because of that. As for the difference between an author and a baker; there are many, one being that you don't have a storefront where people come in and buy your products just like that. Another is that he is perfectly capable of making a white cake with frosting and drawing little birds on it, like seen in the video. An author has to be able to build a story in their head to even create their work of art, and that is something else entirely. The only way for an author to end up in a similar situation would be if you agreed to write a story, that the plot was something you felt able to create, and then denied them because you suddenly learned the client was gay. Their sexual orientation would have no impact on the story because you already knew how to create the product.

What exactly makes the baker a bigot? he serves gays he just refuses to put his heart and soul in a custom cake to support gays. Thats like saying im a bigot because i watch porn but not gay porn. I simply dont support gays. You cant make me do something to support it. And i respect you so I wont do something to disrespect yoy. That is what tolerance is. which means not a bigot. Tolerance doesnt mean you have to support. why do ppl keep acting like that is what it means.

Nigga?

You could make divorce cake.

Contevent Good idea in theory. But how can I in good conscience bake a cake for sinners who didn't respect my religion in the first place by getting married.

Does your religion knows no mercy for the repentant? Or no sadistic glee, because look at this! www.google.fr/search?q=divorce+cakes&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis8O3LzvrXAhUDZ1AKHbcTD0IQ_AUICigB&biw=1600&bih=765

Contevent Ok, some nice suggestions, but I think not. You show some mercy and start excusing some miner things and you end up defending women abuser and child molestier. And the next thing you know, perverts are running the country.