Community and Self-Improvement | with Paul VanderKlay

Рет қаралды 14,649

Күн бұрын

Paul VanderKlay and I discuss the upcoming conference in Thunder Bay, Ontario, that we will participate in with John Vervaeke and Dr. Richard Maundrell. We talk about This Corner of the Internet and the current state of the conversation, how community is built and its importance, church and authority, and finally we also talk about the seminar I did with Jordan Peterson and The Daily Wire about the book of Exodus.
- Consciousness and Conscience Thunder Bay conference (September): www.urbanabbey.ca/conference
- Shareable conference promo video: • September Conference w...
- Bridges of Meaning festival in Germany (August): bridgesofmeaningfestival.de/
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Timestamps
00:00:00 - Coming up next...
00:01:01 - Intro music
00:01:26 - Introduction
00:03:14 - The state of the conversation
00:07:26 - Changing worldview
00:13:02 - Progress in person
00:17:05 - The challenge of celebrity and abstraction
00:22:19 - Communion and commitment
00:28:18 - Loneliness and self-improvement
00:36:00 - The Estuaries
00:40:58 - Church and authority
00:52:10 - Exodus seminar with The Daily Wire
01:05:51 - When chaos reigns
01:09:36 - Consciousness and Conscience conference in Thunder Bay info
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
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Пікірлер: 105

@hempenasphalt1587 Жыл бұрын

I tried to build relationships in Jordan Peterson group - it didn't work too well. Best thing is now I got married and moved with my husband in Ireland. Thank God I got out of southern CA and into my husband's family. I was in hell. One saving grace was that I became a catechumen in the Orthodox church in California, (I would commute 50 min to reach it) now I am trying to get baptized at a Greek church in Ireland which is 5 min walk from home. Praise God!

@rd-ry7td Жыл бұрын

Welcome to Ireland! I am in west cork with my family.

@hempenasphalt1587 Жыл бұрын

@@rd-ry7td thank you! This is truly God's country. :)

@josephtravers777 Жыл бұрын

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." - St. Paul

@jarrodbackman-gallivan6467 Жыл бұрын

Unrelated to the video; my copy of God's'Dog arrived yesterday. So good! Can't wait for more! ❤

@kathleenthompson9566 Жыл бұрын

I got mine too!!

@marybrewer2203 Жыл бұрын

I’m happy to realize that my little church group is reflecting much of this picture of community. We are a gathering of folks from diverse Christian backgrounds, so our discussions on Wednesday nights can get a bit chaotic. We are also associated with a Christian based recovery facility, so we have a number of new Christians in the mix. It feels like primal Christianity. Community is essential for growth in depth and the worship of God.Your discussions on KZfaq enliven my mind along these lines. Thanks.

@grailknightchesterton232 Жыл бұрын

Equally as excited for Jonathan's 'footnotes' on Exudes as I am for the body of the converzation!

@SolSoilSoul Жыл бұрын

Pastor Vanderklay, you are so much the glue to these converzations in this corner of the internet. Which isn’t to discount Mr Pageau’s contributions here. Thank you for all you (both) provide to us seekers.

@JosephandIsaiah Жыл бұрын

I need me a solid community :( thanks for the convo. You both help me much

@Xanaseb Жыл бұрын

As JPageau has said before, go look up and visit your local churches, preferrably the more liturgically orientated ones

@JosephandIsaiah Жыл бұрын

@@Xanaseb lol I’ll give it i try. I grew up Pentecostal so it’s very different then anything I’m used to

@RodrigoMera Жыл бұрын

Online clubs are a start.

@umiluv Жыл бұрын

It’s okay to shop around for a church. It doesn’t have to be more liturgical. Just find one that works for you with people you feel like you could get close to. Pray to God. Ask Him to guide you. Don’t be afraid if things change after you ask. Follow His lead and maybe he will help you to the people you need to meet. Happened for me. I prayed to God to help me find a good church and through an unfortunate event, I was forced to stop hanging out with some neighbors and hang out with others instead (kids my son could play with) and ended up going to the church of one of the new neighbors we befriended. Always stay positive and don’t focus on the negatives. Every closure is an opportunity for a multitude of open doors. And maybe that was God guiding you to the right place, by closing a door. God works in mysterious ways. He’s really cool in that way. Good luck!

@JosephandIsaiah Жыл бұрын

@@umiluv thank you for that! I needed that advice. I’m actually moving soon and im hoping to find a church that is good for me

@umiluv Жыл бұрын

I’m so excited about the Exodus lectures! Yay!!!!

@MoreChrist Жыл бұрын

Two great lights! Thank you both for all you are doing. It's going to be so fun seeing Paul in person soon and please God, we'll get Jonathan to Ireland next year. :)

@dawnmuir5052 Жыл бұрын

Wonderful! Can't wait to see/hear you in Thunder Bay!

@cozzwozzle Жыл бұрын

Paul’s on the prime time baby!

@jackiek4159 Жыл бұрын

Great conversation guys! Thank you! 🙏🏻💞

@johannakunze3300 Жыл бұрын

We do have Internet in Europe...

@lynnharalam1795 Жыл бұрын

I find parenting older children during these unusual times extremely difficult in terms of what types of conversations we should be having with them. The events going on around us can be so overwhelming for adults but I can't imagine how our youth are feeling. I feel like I should be shaking them up in a loving way but if they're not spiritually healthy the truth may be more damaging. So much evil is pulling them away from the Truth. Any advice on parenting our kids so they can tackle what the future holds for them?

@umiluv Жыл бұрын

Just ask them if they have any questions and what they think about stuff that’s going on. They might have a totally different perspective that might help you as well. Listen, let them talk, ask questions, don’t talk down to them. Older kids need to be prepared to become adults so overly sheltering them doesn’t really help them.

@hiebrantsify Жыл бұрын

Talk to them with them with respect and as human beings. Children are ignorant of things because they are young and have little experience of the world. However if you explain them things properly they will not be fazed it will actually help them to orient themselves in the world. Just give them guidlines on how to act with that knowledge with other people. Such as dont go around and blaming random people for such and such things or being angry at people around you because of this and that etc and how to deal with emotions that might come up, children can take a lot of things very well if you just give them guidlines and normal truthful explanations of how things work and how to act why they should act that way.

@cynanomite Жыл бұрын

That's the best justification for free will I've come across: The necessary part of an agentic, participatory (and thereby meaningful) communion with God where God gives, or permits, us autonomy over our attention (and by extension, relationships as stated by Pageau here)

@andrew_blank Жыл бұрын

Appreciate this bringing it back to every day life and admitting that at some point we have to go beyond the conversation and embody these higher level ideals (attention, love, etc)… how much does the context in which we practice those matter? Orthodoxy vs Reformed vs Modern Evanglicalism (non-denom) all look very different. If the medium doesn’t matter, why don’t we just skip it and go to coffee hour. Can you address the importance of the context?

@darrenvanginkel Жыл бұрын

Having a group of about 6-8 people to have a conversation with can be helpful in working out how to interpret and act in the world. Taking one-on-one advice in a coffee catchup is more risky. Having a group normalises the quality of the advice. Nevertheless you can still get bad advice. All depends on the quality of the people involved. In my experience Estuary attracts so many broken people, the value of the advice is questionable. There are fundamental problems that need to be addressed to avoid the whole concept failing in execution. My experience any way. Could say so much more. But, yeh, KZfaq has turned into a spectator sport and the conversations have become tiresome. Words, birds, endlessly in flight.

@thevulgarhegelian4676 Жыл бұрын

PVK in the house

@Herdingcats1917 Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

Jung has been brought to my mind, and the chapter in "The Undiscovered Self" about "Religion as the Counterbalance to Mass Mindedness". Jung says "the meaning and purpose of religion lie in the relationship of the individual to God". He contrasts religion with a creed which expresses "definite collective belief". "Since they are compromises with mundane reality, the creeds have accordingly seen themselves obliged to undertake a progressive codiﬁcation of their views, doctrines and customs and in so doing have externalized themselves to such an extent that the authentic religious element in them - the living relationship to and direct confrontation with their extramundane point of reference - has been thrust into the background." ... "To be the adherent of a creed, therefore, is not always a religious matter but more often a social one and, as such, it does nothing to give the individual any foundation..." It's a good book. The point being that transformative spiritual conversion is a religious matter for the individual alone - the community can only help.

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

The authority of the Church comes from its knowledge of the Truth which comes from God. Salt without saltiness is worthless. Branches that bear no fruit are pruned. "You are my friends if you do what I command." If people don't want to hear truth, that's up to them. It isn't for the Church to pander to what people want. The Truth the churchmen are supposed to bear witness to doesn't change.

@1walkerw Жыл бұрын

Great new intro

@annawray2220 Жыл бұрын

I’m coming to see Paul talk with Tom Holland :-) it will be nice to see him in person, I hope I get to say hello

@tensevo Жыл бұрын

I think it is important when arguing against individualism, to caveat with voluntary communion, rather than coercive collectivism.

@expert3593 Жыл бұрын

Can you do a review or breakdown of the movie klaus? I think its a beautiful movie and in some instances shows Orthodox values and other i think it does some wonky things. Id love to see you talk about the movie a bit

@TheRationalCarpenter Жыл бұрын

Don't join a community that is a community of making enemies. That seems a popular form of community construction: who do we hate and who are we against.

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

How else do you do it? If your community is all inclusive it is bound to lose its purpose and fall apart - being all quantity and no quality. Jonathan addressed this in the Q & A session after a lecture he gave which is on Jordan Peterson's channel entitled "Lecture: The Symbolic World | by Jonathan Pageau" (video id: ZQ43i5nKuZk) at around the 1 hour 37 minute mark.

@TheRationalCarpenter Жыл бұрын

@@JB000001 every group will always have exclusions but some groups will make exclusion the purpose of the group. Hate is the purpose of the group. We are here to be against them.

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

@@TheRationalCarpenter If you invert what a group is for - that is what they are against; invert what they are against - and that is what they are for.

@TheRationalCarpenter Жыл бұрын

@@JB000001 when you invert something it is not the same, it is inverted.

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

@@TheRationalCarpenter Yes, and if it is something - it must have quality, an essence. The same thing can either be characterised in a positive way, or a negative way - depending on how you want to look at it.

@llcoolwill86 Жыл бұрын

1:08:29 I disagree with Paul's opinion about how 'there's no other way to [build interpersonal skills], but by doing it with people in real life'. The online-native generations from Gen Z onwards will have a completely different reality than what we've known. I'm hoping they'll find better ways of developing interpersonal skills online than we have. We won't be able to replicate a non-digital or minimally digital childhood so fostering ways to better connect online (or supplement offline connect) is a must.

@viktorbraa Жыл бұрын

Hi Jonathan, I posted the same comment on Paul's channel but here it is for you hoping it will spike some inspiration. In your ongoing thinking and discussion of the phenomena of egregores, participation and spiritual bodies, I think we can see a very vivid expression of this in the recent virality of Andrew Tate. His popularity is a result of him selling "Hustlers Academy", where he teaches people how to make money: namely posting videos of him and taking ad revenue. There is no real production, no real "body", so to speak, only the consumption of psychic energy. A hallmark of an egregore is this evident sterility. Furthermore, he himself is not the egregore, evident to an extent in the videos where he "breaks character". A quote from the book by Mark Stavish - "Egregores". "The creation of an egregore depends not just on pure repetition and the perfect coherence of a group in clearly envisioning a thoughtform, but also on slight variations and differing iterations of the same basic idea. The latter is important because the thoughtform takes shape or - literally coheres (attains coherence) - through a kind of comparative triangulation and synthesis of variant iterations, like producing a digital composite image that synthesizes a number of faces into a single realistic portrait of an imaginary person." From this quote, we see how powerful the "reposting" technique can be in creating egregore-like agents. Every short with Andrew Tate in it will be a differing iteration: the music will be different, a different colour profile, the zooming etc and so on.

@tensevo Жыл бұрын

Is it possible to view sacrifice, as giving up something to get something, more like a meta-physical trade. Why does anybody sacrifice their own time or resource, if it is not to get something back? What I am getting at, is people are afraid of "sacrifice" because they see it as giving something without getting anything back in return.

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

Alexander Dugin entered my consciousness recently. I'm reading something he wrote about the introduction of nominalism into the realm of religion... "The church as the 'mystical body of Christ' was destroyed and replaced by hobby clubs created by free consent from below." Hmmm.

@henrybarrett1292 Жыл бұрын

Does anyone know why The Symbolic World website won’t pull up any content today?

@improvisedchaos8904 Жыл бұрын

Off topic here , but I have a question Is breaking bread akin to taking Isaac up the mountain?

@jasonthegatherer Жыл бұрын

Do I have to say come to NY next or is that a given? Anyone in NJ wanna meet up in the meantime?

@Jacob011 Жыл бұрын

Can't wait for Laul Wonderplay to create a compilation of PVK's nodding.

@rd-ry7td Жыл бұрын

Anybody else here in Ireland and want to connect?

@MoreChrist Жыл бұрын

You should join us at Benburb Priory on Friday 2nd September. PVK, Paul Kingsnorth, myself, and Calvin Robinson are having a Christian conference. :)

@juansenaranjo Жыл бұрын

Jonathan, what is the symbolism in the Nazi cross and the stripes turning it to the right?

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

You'll find Guenon mentions the swastika in his book "Symbolism of the Cross".

@juliagriffiths3291 Жыл бұрын

Which church in London?

@tensevo Жыл бұрын

This is my sensory deprivation chamber, so calming. The world makes sense again.

@cynanomite Жыл бұрын

I tried to read through the OT recently. Pageau was on point with the violent tribal warfare. But Exodus is nothing compared to Joshua, which comes after. I made it to Kings (story of David), but was so distraught by Joshua, I ended up throwing in the towel.

@elusivemayfly7534 Жыл бұрын

I’ve been reading a book called “God is a Man of War” by Father Stephen DeYoung. It’s been helpful in exploring this stuff. Came across it randomly after praying that God would help me with that material. It’s a book to consider during your exploration. Wishing you peace on your journey

@hempenasphalt1587 Жыл бұрын

Can I recommend getting an Orthodox Study Bible? Or getting some Church Fathers commentary on the OT? When I read it slowly with a view to the typology and lots more prophetic allusions to Christ, I see the whole Bible as a book about and pointing to Christ. When I read it "cold turkey" I did find portions of OT very distressing indeed, like that poor Levites concubine in Joshua for instance!😣

@a.w.hughes6648 Жыл бұрын

Man I love the Old Testament. The first time through for me though I definitely had a sore tongue at God. Eventually I came to the conclusion that even if I asked Him why I hadn't allowed Him the space to answer for Himself why those things went on. Gl on your journey

@christophersnedeker2065 Жыл бұрын

God was working with a violent culture at a violent time. They wouldn't have listened if he read them the Genova convention.

@Augass Жыл бұрын

@jocelynbolduc2769 Жыл бұрын

Dualité vs Altérité.

@GeorgetheGreat Жыл бұрын

Hey mr pageau Thoughts on andrew tate ?

@Kwalk1989 Жыл бұрын

It's hard for me to see how daily wire is in alignment with what you guys are trying to do.

@umiluv Жыл бұрын

Well they help fund JBP to do things on his own. His daughter was managing everything and now she’s newly married and probably needs to focus on spending time with her family. This helps people manage their personal lives. We cannot expect these people to give up everything for us. They need to have balance in their lives too. And if that means working with the Daily Wire, then that’s what they will do for now.

@josephllinas2672 Жыл бұрын

jonathan for the love of God PLEASE do your own exodus video. that would be invaluable for everyone.

@friedabokorny7140 Жыл бұрын

Quod est inferius, est sicut (id) quod est superius, et quod est superius, est sicut (id) quod est inferius, ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.

@Wakanda4bigmama Жыл бұрын

Hey Jonathan I think unvaxxed can board airplane now in Canada

@jocelynbolduc2769 Жыл бұрын

Muslim prayer: humility worship.

@ordinaryorthodox9980 Жыл бұрын

John's take is that the system of thought which can dialogue with all others should be seen as the highest truth [neoplatanism]. However, since he acknowledges himself that ultimately the truth is hierarchical and is most properly construed as conscious and intentional [God] and embodied, there is no sense in which neoplatonism can be conceived as the highest truth thereby. One might be able to accept his framework as a useful dialectical tool for rendering legible the truth claims at a lower level in the hierarchy of truths than others, but his system of thought cannot move higher up the chain of being toward the divine logos, because it is too abstract. It is too disembodied. For all his talk of the centrality of consciousness, his intuition that the highest truth must only be that which is held in common between competing religious systems is unjustified. Ultimately, truth must move up toward something or someone concrete and thus untranslatable. The divine word made flesh claims exactly this, and it seems that Pageau and Peterson are closer to agreement on this fact than ever before.

@harleyseelbinder Жыл бұрын

Jonathan, have you ever done any episodes on psychedelics?

@ShowMeMoviesInc. Жыл бұрын

Yes look it up

@otiswong2091 Жыл бұрын

Which is faster? Is the conversion of a higher being to a lower being faster, or is the conversion of a lower being to a higher being faster? I think the higher being to the lower being is faster because higher beings move faster than lower beings, God being the metaphysical spirit that he is, he is omnipresent so he is faster than any other beings. However, we humans, animals and plants can only be in one place at a time, therefore we are slower than God. In Christianity, human beings have to live through a life long godly experience in order to go to heaven. However, God can say, "i want to come to being so people can see me" and immediately he can do that. Therefore, the conversion of a higher being to a lower being is faster.

@z853c7 Жыл бұрын

Why does Jonathan have an English firstname? His family is French-speaking, and his brother is named Mathieu. Must be a nom-de-plume

@leondbleondb Жыл бұрын

Of all the things you could be wondering.

@z853c7 Жыл бұрын

@@leondbleondb all my other questions have already been answered

@a.w.hughes6648 Жыл бұрын

Could be, might also be because he's quebecoise and not french. Ya know, American continent french speakers that have been surrounded by anglophones since the mid-1800's

@TheDonovanMcCormick Жыл бұрын

Jonathan the idol maker and Paul the iconoclast together again lol hope you are both well gentlemen.

@TheDonovanMcCormick Жыл бұрын

@mwood365 it’s what they called each other in a previous podcast bro, I didn’t make it up. Tell them that

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

Maybe there needs to be less chat with one another, and more prayer with God - because it seems to me that what purports to be the church these days has lost its way too.

@JB000001 Жыл бұрын

In a hierarchy of values, perhaps you could say modern Christians put their 1iberalism before (hristianity. The (hristian Church being nested inside the 1iberal 5tate. Obviously this is a mistake, and does not take 6od seriously!

@nikibird5 Жыл бұрын

This seems to be a conversation between men only.

@leondbleondb Жыл бұрын

Lol.

@nikibird5 Жыл бұрын

Maybe having women participate in the conversation, for a start….

@nikibird5 Жыл бұрын

Just mentioning this after watching multiple videos……an observation

@thomasjohnston8970 Жыл бұрын

WTF, who cares if women are on it or not?

@hempenasphalt1587 Жыл бұрын

@@nikibird5 there are occasional talks with women. Here is one with Esther O'Reilly: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qbWEacaBntqpnoU.html but I haven't heard of her lately